  Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1060 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.153.103.15 |
Seriously. Read an article about scalped tigers tickets. Where did this come about? If someone wants to sell and the other is willing to pay, why does the law care? I really want to know why and the origin of the Michigan law. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 678 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.42.23.2 |
If I am mistaken as long as you are not on the property of the venue you can scalp. Correct me if I am wrong. hey check out the search function, I think we talked about this with the Red Wings and Tigers. It was pretty interesting | ||
Tigersfan9 Member Username: Tigersfan9 Post Number: 63 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 64.118.151.178 |
I don't think it matters where you are. You can't sell for over face value, period. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 679 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.42.23.2 |
www.ticketsafari.com Michigan SUMMARY: Prohibits resale of a ticket in excess of its face value for all entertainment events held in the state. 750.465 Sale of tickets for theatre, circus, athletic game, or place of public entertainment or amusement; requirements; prohibitions; penalty. (1) The owner, lessee, operator, or manager of each theatre, circus, athletic grounds used for an athletic game, or place of public entertainment or amusement shall have printed on each ticket issued for admission to, or for a seat of, the theatre, circus, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement, in conspicuous type, the price of the ticket, and the number on the seat when each seat is numbered. The owner, lessee, operator, or manager also shall print or endorse on the ticket the charge in excess of the box office price at which the ticket is sold if the ticket is purchased at a location other than the box office where the event occurs and the following statement: “This ticket may be purchased at the box office price without the surcharge by purchasing the ticket at the box office where the event is scheduled to occur.” (2) A person owning, occupying, managing, or controlling a building, room, park or enclosure for the sale of tickets for a theatre, circus, athletic game, or place of public entertainment or amusement, who asks, demands, or receives from a person for the sale of the ticket to a theatre, circus, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement, a price in excess of the general admission advertised or charged for the same privilege, or a person, who by himself or herself or his or her agent or employee, offers for sale upon a public place or thoroughfare, a ticket to a theatre, circus, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement, for admission to, or for a seat or other privilege in a theatre, circus, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement, at a price in excess of that demanded or received from the general public for the same privilege, or in excess of the advertised or printed rate, shall be punished as provided in subsection (6), except if the request, demand, or receipt is with the written permission of the owner, lessee, operator, or manager of the theatre, circus, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement where the event occurs. If the owner, lessee, operator, or manager permits, in writing, a charge in excess of the box office price, the permission shall be limited to the sales of tickets at locations other than the box office where the event occurs. (3) Except as provided in subsections (1) and (2), a person shall not establish an agency or suboffice for the sale of a seat ticket of admission to a theatre, circus, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement at a price greater than the sale of a seat ticket at the box office of the theatre, circus, athletic grounds, place of public entertainment or amusement, or in excess of the advertised price of the seat ticket. (4) Except as provided in subsections (1) and (2), the owner, lessee, operator, or occupant of a building, room, enclosure, or other place open to the public, who permits a person to sell or exhibit for sale in the building, room, enclosure, or other place open to the public, 1 or more tickets for a theatre, circus, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement, for more than the price printed on the ticket, shall be liable and guilty equally as the person. (5) If the owner, lessee, operator, or manager of a circus, theatre, athletic grounds, or place of public entertainment or amusement has sold a ticket or admission to a person, under restrictive conditions and at a less rate than the general admission charged, and whose name appears on the face of the ticket or is registered in the office of the owner, lessee, operator, or managers as the holder of the ticket and if it is printed on the face of the ticket that the ticket is nontransferable and sold only to the person whose name appears on the face of the ticket or is registered, the holder of the ticket shall not sell the ticket to another person, and a person selling the ticket shall be punished as provided in subsection (6). (6) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor. | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 99 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 216.111.89.3 |
it's a 1931 law...pretty outdated if you ask me. I can see you wanting to cut down on fake tickets getting sold, but selling on sites like stubhub and ebay should be legal.... the most idiotic point of the law is that if you live out-of state, then you can sell over face value (as many brokers do that have tickets to every game/event you can think of). | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 929 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 209.104.146.146 |
Its illegal to keep tickets reasonably priced and available. Its a good law. Stop being dumb. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4205 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.193.193.49 |
Scalping has been a scam over the years. People have purchased too many phoney tickets. That's a big problem you don't think of until the gate attendant tells you bought counterfeit. So it's not just price, it's criminals. For that, we need laws. jjaba, gimme two behind home plate, Moshe' has never been to a game before. Ya got change for a $100? (Why are we in this back alley?) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2573 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.90.170 |
Yoy, I bet Jjaba "never had to pay retail!"  | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 541 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.22.57 |
I don't think the counterfeit concern is a valid cause. Why can't the free market simply determine what something is worth? As long as the Tigers get paid their price for their initial sale of the ticket, what does it matter how much or how little it is sold for after that? | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 737 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
You are all overlooking a factor. The state or local government does not get an additional tax cut from a scalped ticket. Thus, they make it illegal to scalp. That's the same reason the numbers racket was made illegal years ago....no state or local cut. So they came up with the daily lottery, which is the same thing, and made it legal since they get their share. Always follow the money. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 680 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.173 |
People sell tickets all the time @ home, work, etc... I'm not mistaken you can buy tickets from season ticket holders on the Tigers website and if you do the math it costs more than you buying them outright.... usually these are harder to come by tickets but as long as its hidden in fees.. you can do it.. BULLSHIT! Let me open an office in Toledo so I can scalp the hell out of some tickets. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1061 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.153.103.15 |
I think it it illegal no matter where you live, if it is online or not, no matter your residency. Regardless of whether or not it is dumb to do cash deal outside the gate, why can't people sell over face through ebay/stubhub/craigslist. Most of these sites you can use credit cards (protect you from scams), the buyer and seller are tracable. Some sites you can even e-mail the ticket you received from ticketmaster. And if you want to do a street deal, those who do know the risks of counterfeiting. I don't buy the "share of the taxes" BS. If I can sell over face for Cubs tickets in Chicago, why can't I in Michigan? All those involved know the risks. And if people buy them hoping to make a quick buck, it can go the other way too. Say the Wings suck next year. Boom, under face is fine, the seller loses money. I just really don't understand it. ESPECIALLY the online selling/transfer. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 426 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
When I saw the Tigers in Pittsburgh this year, we scalped tickets (scalping laws are very fuzzy in Pitt, its illegal, but only in certain areas). We ended up sitting next to the rightful owners of the seats (they sold 2 of their 4) so we got insight on how the deal went down: The original ticketholders sold 2 seats to a scalper for $25 total. The scalper then sold them to us for $20 each. They were $28 tickets, I think. So in this scenario, everyone won. The ticketholders got money for their tickets. The scalper made a profit, and we got tickets for under face value. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 193 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Somehow, I doubt that those who argue for open scalping would agree to let the Tigers, Wings or any concert promoter sell a ticket without a printed price. Think about it - why is the box office required by law to publish the ticket prices and also print it on the ticket? It's so they can't arbitrarily raise the price as the supply of a particular section sells out - it "protects" the public and assures them that seats of equal desirability will all sell for the same price until they are sold out. That way there are no surprises and accusations of "windfall profits" thrown at the seller. Make scalping legal and be prepared for the teams and promoters to demand equal freedom to sell tickets at whatever price the spot market will support. (Message edited by Mikeg on August 07, 2006) | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6246 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
I remember that there was some Supreme Court decision on this JUST before the SuperDuperBowl that made judged the MI law uncontitutional...I dunno if they sent it back to the MI courts for a revisit or they simply declared it open season WHILE the SDBowl was in town. It just makes season ticket sales go UP, as individuals pool their resources to secure decent pricing for tickets...I'd say let the market declare the pricing for your sports worship!! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 349 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Come on! I thought this thread was going to be about removing the scalps of people (really, I did). I was wondering why anyone would question the legality of that... | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 44 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Lol, that was the funniest thing I've heard all day. I guess that tells you how my day has gone! | ||
Pdtpuck Member Username: Pdtpuck Post Number: 160 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 208.251.168.194 |
my fiance & I bought 4 tickets to the Wings game back in Jan. off eBay (two seats in two different sections...long story!), and there were disclaimers galore on the seller's ad about not selling for over face value per MI law. When we got to the Joe, we thought we'd unload 2 of the 4 and get our money back. A friendly gentleman told us to go FAR away from the Joe if we were going to do that, as we'd probably get our asses handed to us for scalping (even though we were asking face value for them)(He said in addition to police & arena security around, there were cameras watching almost every corner of the arena). After weighing our options, we decided to eat the cost of the tickets and turned them in to one of the gate collectors and told him if anybody needed any tickets, they were free to use them. He seemed genuinely grateful and said people were always looking for seats and thanked me (I couldn't find the guy that told us not to sell, or else I would've given them to him). We figured we did our "good deed" for the day, and wound up NOT getting arrested in Detroit, far from our Illinois home! In a related story, some buddies & I bought tickets to the Leafs game (*GASP* lol) in '00 right outside the Air Canada center, in full view of the OPP, and they didn't even bat an eye. As far as counterfeits are concerned, caveat emptor! (Message edited by pdtpuck on August 08, 2006) | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 141 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 149.149.5.6 |
That's why you take an old hat, stick the tickets in it, and sell the hat and all its contents for whatever price you want. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 3939 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.212.47.137 |
A recent court decision struck down the part of Detroit's scalping law that prevented the re-selling of tickets at any price. That's while you see a lot of guys trying to buy and sell tickets outside the CoPa this year. The Sports Economist blog has posted several interesting articles about the economics of scalping, in particular that fact that sports teams and concert promoters clearly undervalue their product. http://www.thesportseconomist. com | ||
Barich16cmu Member Username: Barich16cmu Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 147.240.236.9 |
All you have to do is sell anything (a paper clip) and give the tickets away for free. I see this happening all the time on ebay where you get free tickets all you have to do is pay $200 for a pencil. This is a legal way around the scalping laws. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 119 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 24.145.153.182 |
Why should scalping be illegal? To protect us from douchebags. If you bought a ticket for 20 bucks, but won't sell it to me for less than 50 because you get greedy and think that's what you can get, then you are a douchebag, and as such should be convicted of douchebaggery of the first degree. The problem with a free market argument to scalping is that you have no way of knowing what the free market value would be. I'm sure if you got all the scalpers and all the consumers together in one place and figured out the equilibrium price, it could be drastically different than what you think the price is. Usually it's just you and a scalper talking to each other, with very little knowledge of what other people are willing to sell and buy for. And since you're at the game and don't want to be left without a ticket, you lose a lot of bargaining power. Reminds me of Chevy Chase at the mechanic's garage in the middle of nowhere in "Vacation." "How much to fix my car?" "I dunno, how much you got?" Because there's one supplier, he can demand a high price... but he's being a douchebag. I'm very curious to see what would happen if we regulated scalping, or if the DPD set up a scalping zone in one of those parking lots outside of copa so that all buyers and sellers could hash it out in the same area. | ||
Publicmsu Member Username: Publicmsu Post Number: 663 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 129.188.33.221 |
Hooha: Try a simple supply and demand curve... Someone will meet the demand for said 50$ ticket. The numbers will be low, but they will sell... when they don't sell, the seller has no choice but to lower his price, thus increasing demand. the idea of ebay and other outlets being legal and selling them on the streets as illegal is just stupid. These people are establishing a market based on the area in which they sell. That's the way the economy works! Douchebags or not, you're just a whiny bitch because you are paying greater than face value. The goal of a business is to maximize profits and the goal of the consumer is to maximize utility... What is a ticket worth to you? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 542 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.21.103 |
Hooha wrote, "Usually it's just you and a scalper talking to each other, with very little knowledge of what other people are willing to sell and buy for." So? I like to buy old postcards. Let's say that I've only bothered to patronize one dealer. Should that postcard seller be arrested if the police think that his prices are too high and take advantage of my ignorance of what prices other postcard dealers charge? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6250 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.198.22 |
Sounds like y'all need to stay in a room at a Hilton hotel...while you're trying to fall asleep, read Conrad Hilton's "Be My Guest" and learn the art of negotiation. Hint: Always, always, always show disgust and surprise at whatever the initial offer is...even if it seems a fair price or even below what you are willing to pay. Proceed to offer some value WAY lower than the initial price...weather the seller's offense, feigned or not...and wrestle your way to a marginal price somewhere inbetween. Always be totally prepared to walk away from the deal. Do NOT get emotionally involved, or you lose. Remember that you're working with pros, but they enjoy the game as much as you...and want as many of your dollars as possible, so they won't let a real deal walk away. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 120 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 24.145.153.182 |
Publicmsu, I'm a whiny bitch, and you're an asshole. Good job, that was productive. My point was that there are some situations that you shouldn't let the market take care of, like the example of the auto mechanic. Do you really think a mechanic should be able to charge whatever he wants based on how desperate the consumer is? Or do you think gas stations should be allowed to charge $10 a gallon (a very realistic estimate of a pressure-free equilibrium price)? There are laws about these kinds of things because there are certain events/services/commodities that people have a right to attain at a low price. The state of michigan decided that the prices of sporting events (and apparently the circus), are something that scalpers shouldn't be able to effect, and i'm happy about it. Burnsie... sure. And you illustrate my point perfectly. My point was that one transaction with a scalper is by no means the reflection of what the true market price would be. If you went to some old postcard trade show or internet auction site, you'd have a much better idea of how much it would cost, now wouldn't you? | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1063 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133 |
The market sets the price. If the buyer doesn't want to pay $50 for a $20 ticket they don't have to. But the seller then risks losing the $20 he put into the ticket if he doesn't sell. Or he can sell for $10 and lose $10. Better than losing $20. Its so simple. That's the way all kinds of stuff works. An auto mechanic can charge whatever they want. I dont' have to go to their shop if I dont' wanna pay it. Gasoline I can maybe understand. It is a commodity. Baseball tickets are not necessary to function in life. Bottom line, I think its really really dumb. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 682 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.173 |
man thats the same thing I was thinking... jsut don't do it it does not make sense..... | ||
Fho Member Username: Fho Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.85.149.176 |
I think scalping should remain illegal. Scalpers buy up many seats that actual fans would want. Then they turn around and sell them at inflated prices. That is an interuption in natural market forces. The value is determined by the team, band, and venue. Then some greedy and troublesome intermediary decides to consume tickets and sell them at artificially inflated prices. Yes people pay, but because they have no choice, except to stay home. The comparison to auto mechanics and gas stations is misleading. You can go to many other mechanics or gas stations, but there is only one performance by a band on that particular day in that particular city. Besides, the band/managers/team/venue are either providing a service or entertainment or a venue. What is the scalper providing except a more difficult time finding tickets and inflated prices when you find them? It's not at all fair. If scalpers want to make a living let them get a real job, instead of being shameless parasites. Or starve. (Message edited by fho on August 09, 2006) (Message edited by fho on August 09, 2006) | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4214 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.193.193.49 |
The issue is criminals, not prices. In Baltimore, they have a wonderful system. Outside of Camden Yards, under some seats, they have sellers and buyers. They let in one buyer at a time. He can survey the sellers and buy or not. There's a line, some cops, and if anything ain't Kosher, bingo, they are arrested. Outside of this place at the ballpark, scalping is VERY illegal. It works well. jjaba has bought there without any problems. Law states no sales above face. So for sellers who buy at a discount, they can make some money. Tickets are sold at discounts for cashflow at venues. But beware also, a seller might be holding 100 tickets on a rainout day too. Nobody shows up, you gotta deal with that problem. Or in the case of Baltimore, your team could have a lousy season. No demand. jjaba, baseball fan. |
