Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Michigan exodus strains movers « Previous Next »
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Mumbly
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Username: Mumbly

Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.79.122.174
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From The Detroit News:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060731/B IZ/607310330
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.75.220.9
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

"Michigan is going down the tubes. I saw the writing on the wall and there was an opportunity to leave the state, so I took it," he said.




For some reason I just want to call this guy an asshole, whether I'm justified to or not.
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 162
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.141.144.2
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wazootyman... you're totally justified... in fact, i'll do it for you... hey, "mighigan-is-gonig-down-the-tu bes" man-guy... you're an ASSHOLE!!!
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7633
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with the guy. Given the current economy, politics, racial issues, unemployment, glut of homes for sale,etc how can one not think the state is going down the tubes?

That doesn't mean that we should all flee but we have to deal with reality on this one.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1738
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bingo Jt1, Bingo!

Why have a reality that we need to deal with. No level of blind optimism will change that reality.
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 815
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You need to look into that mirror and ask yourself who the real asshome is!

Livedog2
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7634
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The mirror told me that I'm an asshole but I don't think that is exclusive for me.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 6202
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL.

Damn, my mirror only calls out the fairest ones.


It's been oddly silent lately...
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 169
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Granholm seems supportive and DeVos will not protest County Sales taxes to replace our high property taxes as a solution to make our state more attractive to business by changing the state constitution.

This will make the sales tax different in all 83 Counties which will shift jobs and commerce to those counties with the lowest sales tax.

I live in Wayne County and I do not want my county sales taxes to be higher then in Oakland County. Those in favor of expanding our transportation system have expressed an interest in these new taxes which are illegal in Michigan but are legal in other states.

I want Michigan to recover and become an attractive state for more jobs and growth which is why I’m posting this. I want the Dy’ers and everyone else to care about our state.
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 605
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.136.147.97
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the attitude of many is the same exact attitude that ruined the city. People have a throw it away get a new one, mentality around here. In some cases it was leave Detroit and build in the suburbs and keep going north and north and discarding your old house to poorer folk.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 543
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.148.7.12
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to the data provided by the moving companies, there are sure a lot of assholes to call out. I don't think it's fair to single out the family that accepted a job offer in NC.
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 255
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 69.14.237.82
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THANK YOU GOVERNOR JENNY GRANDSTAND. The rest of the nation is booming and Jenny fiddles while Michigan burns. Seen her campaign? All attack no substance.
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Paulj
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Username: Paulj

Post Number: 454
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 144.160.5.25
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<----- lining up to be another asshole..... Take all the above mentioned problems, add a cold winter, humid summers, lack of natural beauty compared to many other (mountain) states, a 12 hour drive to the nearest national park, lack of political will in the metro area, general acceptance of the status quo, astronomical insurance rates, and pollution. Thats the makings of this asshole. There's a better life to be lived out there and I want a piece of it.
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Rosedaleken
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Username: Rosedaleken

Post Number: 222
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.210.244.0
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timely article. Budget tried to bribe my dad last week to bring the truck back from Chicago after my recent move. Never heard of that before.
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 981
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

<----- lining up to be another asshole..... Take all the above mentioned problems, add a cold winter, humid summers, lack of natural beauty compared to many other (mountain) states, a 12 hour drive to the nearest national park, lack of political will in the metro area, general acceptance of the status quo, astronomical insurance rates, and pollution. Thats the makings of this asshole. There's a better life to be lived out there and I want a piece of it.




That's pretty much the whole Midwest, buddy. Not just Michigan. Good luck in Phoenix or where ever you're going.
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Hagglerock
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Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 281
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 12.214.243.66
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd take Michigan way before going to states like Iowa and Nebraska. We at least have the awesome lakes to splash around in. Grass isn't always greener on the other side, I'm in Florida now and would kill for things like seasons and snow. Out of the 8 states of Cali, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Rhode Island and Minnesota(Japan not a state) which at one point I've called home. Michigan is by far, hands down my favorite, followed by Minnesota then Georgia. Something about the wilderness, seasons and people that will bring me back to Michigan. Sure job outlook isn't the best and neither are the days without sun in the winter, but for the most part these people leaving and bashing our state are the kind that probably have never actually lived outside of the midwest. Can you really blame them? When I lived in Kazoo/AA I couldn't wait to get out, now I am counting the days till I can return.
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Paulj
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Username: Paulj

Post Number: 455
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.248.75.129
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey, you're right hysteria. Actually phoenix is way too hot, I'm aiming for California, Colorado, or Oregon. I'm not even very interested in moving to a major city if I can find work in a rural area... 27 years in the sprawl capital midwest is more than enough for me, thanks.

After visiting 43 states, I've found plenty of places that would be worth at least trying on for a few years. But you're damn right, I won't be letting the door hit me on the ass on the way out if thats what you're implying. I'll be running way too fast.

cheers.
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 994
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul, I wasn't implying that. I said Phoenix because everyone from the Midwest/Rust Belt is moving to the Sun Belt. You're well traveled and captain of your own ship. Good Luck.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 168
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 12.45.2.184
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Look at the trend years. Michigan was better off when Archer and (sad to say) Engler were in office.313
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Dillpicklesoup
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Username: Dillpicklesoup

Post Number: 139
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 64.7.188.140
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

paulj-
lack of natural beauty? have you taken a great lakes circle tour or gone to the yoop? or seen the sand dunes or any of the national forests?
did you ever go to mackinaw
you are an idiot if you don't think michigan is a beautiful state-
michigan needs fewer whiners-and more movers and shakers-
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 86
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.65.17.58
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, you're not an asshole just because you move. I don't care if you move. If you think the other 49 states are at least an order of magnitude better than Michigan, then go.

What does bother me is the 'Michigan is going down the tubes so I'm packing up and getting the hell out' attitude. I hate a quitter, and I don't care for people who look for what a state can offer them without considering what they can offer the state.
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Deputy_mayor_2026
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Username: Deputy_mayor_2026

Post Number: 108
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pacypacy, Devos has substance behind his attacks?
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Paulj
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Username: Paulj

Post Number: 456
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.248.75.129
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dillpickle, buddy... I've ridden the UP (the same UP that is 12 long hours away from my doorstep), I've sailed the lakes. I've circled mackinaw island on a bicycle and camped in said forests. Have you ever hiked thru the Rockies, witnessed surise over the Sierra Nevada or seen the fog roll in over the Pacific? Call me an idiot, but I fell in love with the mountain west. Compare the natural beauty of any of those places to Michigan and you might see what I mean. Michigan does have it's own unique beauty, but the midwest and plains states are just not for me given the relative flatness. I'm a motorcycle rider and a camper, Detroit just aint the place to be for those activities.


Go test drive the Porsche, and suddenly the Miata won't do it for you any more. It's OK, really, I've been labelled worse things than idiot and asshole in pursuit of the things that make me happy.



as far as the quitting bit, I *am* quitting MI. Why should I slave my good years away in the hopes that this place gets better, for me to then be too old to enjoy it? Life is now, grab on while it's there. If Detroit tickles your fancy, good for you. I grew up in SE MI, tried the city on for years, and in the process found out that not only do I not appreciate the midwest very much, I'm not even a city person in the first place. Once the job market for my field opens up, I'm off to the hills. If that makes me an idiot asshole, than I'll be proud to wear that title as a badge of honor.
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like the Detroit exodus over the past 50 years, except everyone is ditching the state instead of the city.

I've been in CA for most of the last 7 years. Been here 2 years since being in Chicago and Detroit. Nice place, but housing is god awful expensive. I have a good paying job, but live in a very mediocre 50 year old Eichler house with 3 other roommates. The house is $2700/month + utilities. It sucks. I've seen other similar homes in the neighborhood selling for over $1million. I have NO illusion of owning my own home here someday. Sure the climate is great, but I'm looking to go someplace else. Maybe for everyone the grass always seems greener elsewhere.

Its sad to see people giving up and heading out with the middle finger held high. On the other hand, you gotta do what you gotta do. Especially if you can't find a good job in MI.
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.107.47.65
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 7:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

For some reason I just want to call this guy an asshole, whether I'm justified to or not.




It's not the leaving that makes someone an asshole, it's feeling the need to insult the state and by implication the people who choose to stay, that makes someone an asshole.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 2044
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigan is a few years away from recovery and it is only going to get worse the next year and a half. The housing is going to keep depreciating until it rights itself from the boom in 90's and folks learn to live with their new income levels.
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Deandub11
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Username: Deandub11

Post Number: 39
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you just take a minute and look at the graph on the side of the article it shows that in 1980, the percentage of trucks leaving the state was 2 percentage points higher than it is now, and then by 1985, it was almost at its lowest point. This economy will turn around, just as it always does, especially as long as everyone doesnt freak out at the drop of hat and works towards making it better. Give it 5 years at most.
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 930
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.221.183.120
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I graduated from college in 1981 during the big exodus, many to Texas. Everyone was telling me and my peers to leave the State, no jobs here. It was hard and many of my friends left.

I found a job, although I wasn't thrilled with it at the time, it has worked out great over time. Most of my friends that had moved, moved back by 1985 or so.

This will pass, MI still has many strengths, the economy will turn around.
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 995
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.223.168.132
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. This happens and the state rebounds. Each time the state (Detroit in particular) economy hits the skids people always think it's the worst crisis ever.

Michigan's economy is very sensitive. Hopefully, the economic picture will start to turn and the gloom & doom mindset will change with Google coming to A2 and its spin-off effect on other local businesses. Alternative fuel R & D should be another promising avenue for the state.

(Message edited by HYSTERIA on August 01, 2006)
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 265
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 69.14.237.82
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

deputy mayor2026 QUOTE: Pacypacy, Devos has substance behind his attacks?

Name the ads you are talking about.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4706
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.174.230
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HAH!! Let those folks move! Michigan is still growing in population, over 10 million. At least Granholm is doing a fine job bringing jobs into Michigan especially we have Google comming to Ann Arbor.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2727
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.36.14.165
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

deandub11, the graph is actually fairly distressing. note that it DOES NOT oscillate about 50% but instead well over 50%. (It bottoms out at 54%) This implies a net exodus of united van lines customers OUT of the state.
go southwest or southeats middle class families
If you consider that this is a professional moving van company it is likely NOT young people (don;t need a moving van), poorer people (U-haul) or even retiree snowbirds loading up the Grand Marquis for their final migration south ... but instead middle class people whose move is reimbursed by their employers (or who have the means to pay thousdans of $ for a move themselves). This fig implies MI is bleeding middle class and has been doing so for the 30 years shown on this chart. IF MI is no longer CREATING middle class people from immigrants and lower middle class people this is not a good sign.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 546
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.148.7.12
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I second Rustic's analysis in regards to the graph. The line has not even penetrated the 50% threshold once, in fact, it hovers well above 57% over the course of the entire timeline shown. At the rate that the line is climbing now, it wouldn't take long to break the mark set in the early 80s of 66.9%.

Rustic: I would be interested to see the data from U-Haul too.
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Deandub11
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Username: Deandub11

Post Number: 43
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I understand as a whole it is still over 50 percent but I dont really think the uhaul statistics are going to tell the whole story about the economy in Michigan. Economy plays a role, but there are other factors to take into consideration. Obviously we have had good economic times since 1977 and the trucks "in" have never been below 50 percent in those years. My point was that yes the "out" is high right now and for sure that has something to do with the economy, but it was higher in 1980, and then it went all the way down 5 years later which shows the cyclical nature of the economy. Im not saying that we can just sit around and the economy will just do everything on its own. The car companies do have to rethink things and the state does need to diversify instead of always depending on the car companies, but it will happen and the economy will turn around.
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Jelk
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Username: Jelk

Post Number: 3915
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.249.237.207
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Comparing the current exodus from the state of Michigan and the much-discussed flight from the city of Detroit to the suburbs is like comparing apples and oranges. Nay, like comparing apples and Bollywood films. The two phenomena are that different. Narrow-minded is too generous a term to describe those of you who fail to see the fundamental difference between the abandonment of Detroit since World War II and the current exodus from Michigan.

The vast, vast, vast majority of Detroiters who left the city for the suburbs did not change jobs. These people leaving Michigan right now are clearly doing so because they are looking for economic prospects Michigan doesn't offer.

One just has to take a look at dire situations Ford and General Motors currently find themselves in to understand why even someone with a relatively secure job might be looking elsewhere. You don't think someone at Visteon is looking at the Delphi situation and wondering if they might be next.

Even if I'm working for a company is a solid financial situation, what value will my home have in five years when the auto industry's chickens come home to roost? How well do you think Michigan's insurance brokers, advertising agencies, banks, restaurants, hotels, etc, etc will be faring if the domestic auto industry's worst case scenario come to pass?

And if that happens from what tax base will teachers, police officers, firemen, university professors, etc draw their salaries?

That someone with a family is looking at Michigan's situation objectively and considering employment options out-of-state does not make them as asshole...it makes them a responsible head of a household.

Children can't eat bumper sticker slogans and assurances that the economy will turn around "eventually" don't pay the mortgage. Maybe the prospect of being a phone pimp for Quicken Loans appeals to you though I doubt most people with college educations and professional work experience don't look upon these situations as ideal. Besides, do you really think supplying interest only loans to people with weak credit histories is really a good idea? How do you spell Enron? Q-U-I-C-K-E-N?

And those of you so quick to call these folks leaving Michigan for greener economic fields assholes consider that an out-of-state move is never cheap nor easy. I would imagine it is even more difficult when you have to uproot children and put them in a strange new school in a strange new place. I doubt few people leaving Michigan did so easily. I suspect the person who made the "Michigan...down the tubes" comment honestly believes that staying in this state, in his or her present employment situation risks their family’s economic security.

If any of you actually care about Michigan (and by extension Detroit) you won't dismiss these folks so flippantly. Realize they are sounding a very serious alarm bell about the future of this place you claim to care about so much.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 1041
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.38.103
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jelk speaks the truth.

Paulj, I understand what you're saying. There are times (like right now) that I wonder what I'm doing here, in a dying state in a part of the country that people are abandoning, in a city that over a million people already have. As you say, there are many other places with better economies, functional cities, temperate climates, beautiful scenery and twistier roads for motorcycle riding.

If I wasn't born here, I probably wouldn't be here now, but is that really a good reason to stay? I know for certain that I could make substantially more money in another part of the country. But then I wonder if I could ever call another city "home".

It sounds like you've made up your mind, and I wish you well. I'm still here, for now. I'll be here tomorrow, but I couldn't tell you where I'll be in a year.
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Mountainman
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Username: Mountainman

Post Number: 100
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 153.90.110.121
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pacypacy:"The rest of the nation is booming'
Someone give this dude a reality check. Granholm may not be a great governor, but I can tell you from experience the rest of the nation isn't booming. The federal government is sinking the whole ship. Detroit just happens to be at the front of the ship as its taking on water.
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Udalum
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Username: Udalum

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 68.60.146.55
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mountainman,

I would beg to differ with your comment about the prosperity of other states. Unemployment for the rest of the nation is at about the 5 percent mark - which is considered healthy by economists. In addition, the vast majority of other states are experiencing a net gain of jobs and are expanding economically. Tax receipts, one reliable indicator of growth, are going up in most states.

Michigan is the only state in the union that experienced a net job loss due to non hurricane related factors. In fact, unemployment has hovered around the 7 percent mark for the last year (AK has even had better employment stats).

Whether or not Granholm is responsible is up for debate - but certainly the rest of the nation is doing well and booming in particular areas.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4080
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Our economic loss is almost do totally in part to the auto industry and those that supply it. What's worse is that no one ever points out how well Michigan is actually diversifying its economy and how the healthcare industry is booming in almost every city in the state. I really think Michiganders love to revel and wallow in self-pity and hear bad news. Our problem may be job loss, but it's just as much our love of negativity that hampers us. We seem to be stuck in "the grass is greener on the other side" mode. The fact is, Michigan is not the worst state in the nation in nearly any real regard. I see people running off to Arizona and Texas and...and just laugh. While our quality of living may not be what it used to be, you better hope you do well in those states or you're screwed, because as well as the wealthy do in those states, the poor do just as bad.
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Udalum
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Username: Udalum

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 68.60.146.55
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan has a good point about how we should not solely focus upon the negative aspects of our situation - but it is important that we take a look at and keep in mind the data. It remains to be seen if economic diversification will rise above the marginal level that is being touted by both sides of the political aisle.

The best way that we as a state can move towards sophisticated diversification is to simply make the cost of conducting business go down in the state. However, this simple realized goal calls for a complex solution. It will be interesting to see what is said and done in this years gubernatorial race - I think it will be the most accurate preview of the '08 election climate.

(Message edited by udalum on August 05, 2006)
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Humanmachinery
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Username: Humanmachinery

Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 172.163.38.34
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 5:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Udalum The job growth would be encouraging, but most of the job creation in the US is low level service employment, without nearly the stability or benefits provided by a now vanished industrial economy. It's painful to admit, but people used to be able to follow factory, engineering, and design jobs to Atlanta and Houston. No one will be following those jobs to Bangalore.

And the growth in tax receipts is not a good indicator of the overall economic strength of a country, any more than the stock market. I pay more attention to the GDP and the relationship between real wages and prices. Recent data shows that the GDP is slowing its growth, and wages are not keeping pace with price increases.

http://www.marketwatch.com/new s/story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B2AA 95620-9F2E-463C-9620-7C1E21D3A 956%7D&siteid=

This is almost as distressing as the deficit, which is devaluing the US dollar until it is indistinguishable from the Peso. This puts us at a disadvantage with foreign creditors, who have been buying up US debt for the past several years. If the US dollar is no longer an attractive currency for foreign nations to invest in, the US government will no longer be able to pay its loans, and will be forced to declare bankruptcy. This means financial insolvency and chaos. Think Brazil, both the movie and the country.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 157
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.131.176.232
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Michigan exodus may not be a mirror image of the Detroit exodus, but I'll be damned if the two aren't related...
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Udalum
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Username: Udalum

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 68.60.146.55
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Humanmachinery,

I agree that GDP is the best indicator - we have grown a strong 3.5 percent over the last four consecutive quarters and the nation as a whole is doing well. I disagree with your comment on tax receipts measurements. Tax receipts growth is a good indicator of growth because it is indicative of an increase in business activity. In addition, it can tell economists like myself if policies broken down by states are working. The increase in receipts can be attributed to recent tax cuts.

Job growth has been encouraging and the jobs have been (nationally) in higher ordered service industry jobs. The idea that the only jobs being created are primarily low waged doesn't fit the data.

Regarding the devaluation of the dollar - I completely agree but this is nothing new. It's simply that we are printing up / creating new money every month (so to speak) to finance our government programs. This not only includes military spending, but more so domestic entitlements that began under LB Johnson that set the stage for the high interest rates of the early to mid 1970s.

The nation is doing well, but it could be performing even better with some governmental reforms (essentially if they do less). There is real job growth and the nation overall is prosperous; however, Michigan needs to jump on board soon before it looses its shirt.
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Lowell
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Post Number: 2833
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.183.32.14
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome to the forum Humanmachinery and Udalam.

Michigan's malaise is almost entirely automotive. Take that out and our stats are probably average. Most of that is due to bad management combined with bad trade agreements. Little can be done but wait it out and move on with whatever scraps remain - like Pittsburgh without steel.

The country as a whole is doing just okay although the weakest recovery cycle in decades is fading. Michigan is just the first domino in what looks like a round of rolling recessions.

This is not Granholm's or the legislature's fault. State jobs have been cut by thousands while federal employment, by contrast, has grown immensely. Michigan's tax burden to business is smack dab in the middle.

We are figuring out new ways to make money and there's growth among bio-medical, entertainment / tourism, information technologies, and the self employed information industries like mine. IMO if the state is going to spread the corporate welfare, it should be directed at areas that are growing rather than at the dying - but the automotive gorilla will always dine first at Michigan's trough.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3533
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Posted From: 69.209.185.230
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you are a recent college grad in Michigan, you might want to leave. At my employer in the last 2 months we have had about 15-20 people in their mid 20's leave Michigan for other jobs. This is worst it has been here since the depression. Sure, posters here with their near-6-figure jobs cant complain or relate.

Brain-drain-atcha.
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Paulmcall
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Username: Paulmcall

Post Number: 847
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.40.119.216
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It makes me mad when I hear politicians talk again and again about diversifying our state economy. That talk has been going for at least 30 years or more.
However, I must say though we do have advantages here in Michigan over other states.
For instance, no one has mentioned water...and lots of it. When Phoenix runs out, they'll be plenty of thirsty folks glad to come home.
Politicians should concentrate on trying to refocus on our economy and quit pandering. Grandholm and Devos are both full of baloney. Too bad the money they spend on their campaigns can't be used for job training or scholarships.
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Missnmich
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Username: Missnmich

Post Number: 535
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.32.180.75
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 1:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigan and Detroit can not be separated. Detroit is what it is because it is part of Michigan, Michigan receives much of its identity from the metropolis that accounts for 5/9 of its population.

Whatever negatives mentioned above (for me long stretches of gray skies) I would probably move back to Michigan if I had a chance. (My Native Californian wife has some objections, however ...)

In the 25 years I have lived in California and the MidSouth, I have met Michigan expatriates, and we always speak wistfully of our home state. Yesterday, I met a couple who had moved to the Ozarks from Lansing and now are considering Lake Superior property, " ...if this global warming stuff gets any worse."

F- the sunbelt... screw the South ... Michigan will rise again!
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 903
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Michigan's malaise is almost entirely automotive. Take that out and our stats are probably average. Most of that is due to bad management combined with bad trade agreements.




let's be fair. automotive factories are building all over the south - and why is that? a significant factor is union relations. we have to take a look at the workforce here too, and not just point fingers at management.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4082
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul, why be mad? Michigan is diversify, and just as fast as any rustbelt state, at that. Again, it's that the automotive sector is just a huge part of Michigan's economy. Globalization opened up that part of our economy, and there is nothing anyone can do about putting that genie back in the bottle. Again, that doesn't mean the rest of our economy isn't doing well, because it largely is. I'm getting tired of people thinking that our economy isn't diversifying or fast enough because it is, but we better get used to the fact that automotive manufacturing is going to continue to downsize over the next decade or two as these corporations find another workforce to exploit. It can already been seen that the industry is getting tired of the South, and is moving overseas/Mexico, now.

BTW, Carl, you can point fingers at the union (and God knows they are part of the problem, too), but what about Canada? They are highly uninonized up there, for the most part, so why do car companies do so good up there? Two words: Universal Healthcare. So, you can point to unions, but there are other and major issue in play, here.

(Message edited by lmichigan on August 06, 2006)
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Hybridy
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Username: Hybridy

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 206.126.217.221
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

has anyone noticed that metro ann arbor and metro detroit are soon to be attached at the hip. i see plenty of urban sprawl in metro detroit. same as in metro milwaukee and metro chicago. people just wanna get the fuck outta flint town...
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 906
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

BTW, Carl, you can point fingers at the union (and God knows they are part of the problem, too), but what about Canada? They are highly uninonized up there, for the most part, so why do car companies do so good up there? Two words: Universal Healthcare. So, you can point to unions, but there are other and major issue in play, here.




lmichigan, i highlighted "union relations" and "the [union] workforce here" as components in michigan's sputtering economy. i have no complaint against unions themselves; they've allowed a collective of often marginalized (and occasionally brutalized) people to sit at the table with the big dogs and bargain for long-term safety, security, and prosperity. however, the initial fight for equity - over time - turned into something more resemblant of blackmail, and created a culture of insouciance and defiance.

now, i'm going to repeat myself: i highlighted "union relations" and "the [union] workforce here" as components in michigan's sputtering economy. yes, there are unions in canada; there are also unions in the south, where companies are building new automotive plants.

you are correct: "there are other and major issue [sic] in play."
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Frank_c
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Username: Frank_c

Post Number: 714
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.200.116.139
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To young Detroiters/Michiganders the local economy always comes as a rude shock, but it is nothing new, some things never change. Can it change....yes, but it's been doing the same thing for close to 100 years!

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