Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Carrail....did anybody ever visit the place? « Previous Next »
Top of pageBottom of page

Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10385
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just blogged about a topic that ranks among one of my favorite Detroit discoveries ever.

My most memorable Motorcity find

Basically, a few years back I stumbled upon a warehouse filled with close to 100 museum quality cars. It was Richard Kughn's collection, one of which shortly there after was mostly auctioned off. Carrail was a business conference center located at the intersection for Grand River and Southfield Freeway. It wasn't open to the public, but apparently tours were available upon requests as well as rental of the place.

The place itself contained a collection of rare cars, Lionel trains, and other memorabilia. I was hoping to get somebody's first hand account of the place, as I'm sure their experience would have ranked right up there with my own, stumbling upon what I thought was a vacant warehouse, when in fact it was one of the best collections I had ever seen.
Top of pageBottom of page

Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 2251
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 72.134.37.149
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah, the former Rosedale Oldsmobile showroom and service department combined with a building that was once Great Lakes Casket Company, and featured a banner on the side from AAA reading:
"Bring 'em back alive!"
That's quite a bit of space.. Imagine it filled with old cars, old train sets, and all sorts of toys and vintage American Road artifacts.
RK used to rent it out for events, including auto industry lunches.
Very cool place. Kughn came to my attention in ninth grade, when one of my buddys used to cut his lawn in RP. Same buddy always raved about how cool RK was, and about his collection of cars/trains etc.
On my last trip out Grand River, I noticed that it was up for sale.
Sad.
Top of pageBottom of page

Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 2252
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 72.134.37.149
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oops, almost forgot. That complex also includes the former Grandmont Bowl and lounge!!
Top of pageBottom of page

Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2719
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.36.14.165
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SS do a search of the forum, there was a recent thread on Detroit bowling alleys and Carrail came up (it was the old Grandmont Bowling alley). Sounds like at least one forumer was involved in the conversion of the building.

My parents knew Kughn back when he lived in NW detroit in the 70's and early 80s. AIR he usedta drive cool old cars on a regular basis (kinda like Jay Leno does nowadays). He did have QUITE the collection.
Top of pageBottom of page

Toolbox
Member
Username: Toolbox

Post Number: 954
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.125.129
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You sure it was Richard Kughn's stuff you saw? The area you were in is where Keith Crain has most of his cars too.

/\Scratch that it was RK's stuff in the old Hudsons warehouse you saw. Might even have been 56Packman you talked to as well.

Ask 56Packman about Carrail, Madison Hardware and many warehouses of cars, trains, and parts.

(Message edited by toolbox on July 28, 2006)
Top of pageBottom of page

Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10386
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Keith Crain has some stuff in a much smaller warehouse east of the RenCen, got a peak in there once too. No where near the number, but a decent little collection none the less. Used to also be a warehouse closer to the powerhouse that had atleast a half dozen newer style and old style hydroplanes in there. VERY cool dudes, let me check the place out a few summers back and even offered space for car storage if I decided to bring my cars up back then.

Makes you wonder, how many other warehouses like this scatter Detroit? I'm always hearing of local collections of 20 or more cars. Unless you got a bigass polebarn in the country, it's hard to store that many at your house.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 4150
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.193.193.49
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe there's one on the Eastside too, Supersport!

jjaba.
Top of pageBottom of page

56packman
Member
Username: 56packman

Post Number: 475
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 65.185.132.134
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I worked at Carail, for Dick for 12-1/2 years. We had the building at Fort and 12th--that was the warehouse for the bulk of the collection. When I started in '92, we also had a building in Plymouth with about 45 cars in it. bring any questions
Top of pageBottom of page

56packman
Member
Username: 56packman

Post Number: 476
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 65.185.132.134
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are a couple of pictures I took years ago--about '94, with my old point 'n shoot--not the best quality

the Art Disco chandelier I assembled, the train room and the huge Lionel "rocking" sign.
carail 1

carail 2

carail 3
Top of pageBottom of page

Bob_cosgrove
Member
Username: Bob_cosgrove

Post Number: 351
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 207.74.110.60
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm glad 56packman got the spelling of Carail straigthened out.

The warehouse on Fort Street at Rosa Parks (12th Street) he refers to housed the Madison Hardware trains. That was long a major toy train hobby shop in New York City. Mr. Kuhgn purchased its inventory - it took some 17 highway trailers to transport it all to Fort Street - and a couple years to finally sort it all out. Madison Hardware purchased surplus trains and parts from the Lionel Corporation.

Lionel Corporation sold the Lionel brand name and their train design to General Mills c.1970 and General Mills' subsidiary MPC (Model Products Company made the automobile models dealerships used to hand out when you brought a new car)

MPC took over the manufacture of Lionel Trains until Mr. Kughn purchased it from them in 1985. He rejuvenated the company and it is still the leading producer of toy trains.

In 1995 Mr. Kughn sold the company to Wellspring Associates, a New York venture capital company, with Mr. Kughn and composer/musician Neil Young having minority interests.

Carail was one of the top automobile and toy train collections in the U.S. if not the world until it closed about three or four years ago.

Bob Cosgrove
Top of pageBottom of page

56packman
Member
Username: 56packman

Post Number: 477
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 65.185.132.134
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bob--you might know me as "little John"
Top of pageBottom of page

Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 64
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

56' have you been known to play around in lobbies?
Top of pageBottom of page

Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10387
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lil John....WHAT? OKAAAAAAAY! hahaha

Anyways, did he have the Tucker there that was auctioned off? I recall that it sold for something in the $20,000 range, which is amazing considering those cars go for around $300,000+ now. It was a crash test car, but I remember them saying he had all the parts to reassemble it, much of which was still in blister packs.

You wouldn't happen to have a list off all of the cars in the collection at the time would you? From what my few minutes tour gathered, most were from the 30-50's, with a handful of 60's muscle cars mixed in, as well as a couple of 70's cars, Caddies if I recall and maybe a Vette or two.
Top of pageBottom of page

Pdtpuck
Member
Username: Pdtpuck

Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 208.251.168.194
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that is too cool, SS
sounds like Rick Neilsen of Cheap Trick's guitar collection!

Not only does Neil Young have a money interest in Lionel, but an emotional one as well...he helped develop a controller for handicapped kids, as he built one for his son, who I think is autistic. I guess his collection of trains & cars is quite impressive, although not on the scale SS is talking about!
Top of pageBottom of page

56packman
Member
Username: 56packman

Post Number: 478
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 65.185.132.134
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit planner--yes, that's me--Jams can attest to that. Supersport--I don't have a list, but I can tell you that at the Hudson's building he had lots of cars, I'll draw up a list from my memory and post it later. The Tucker was there, inside the old spray booth--where Hudson's used to assemble the thanksgiving parade floats. The car was "in the basket",it was a car that had been used as part of a thrill show that used to happen at the state fair grounds. It was one of the "extra" cars cobbled together after the initial run of 50 (that car would have been the 52nd or 53rd, not "official" Tuckers to those who track such things) I inventoried the parts before the auction, and there were 5 of one certain part, and none of another, usually something quite necessary and obvious. It should be said that the most intact unrestored Tucker is far from being what you would consider a complete automobile. They were at best, 50 near mass-produced show "bucks". The cheapest Plymouth or Chevrolet from that year was 100 times more automobile in term of construction quality, rigidity of body, operation of doors and hoods-trunks. The cars you see at Meadowbrook, or other summer car shows are much improved versions due to the skill of the restorers. They end up using a lot of parts from junkyard Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs, Dodges, etc., just to make a "real" car out of the raw stock. The movie that came out in the late 80's was about 40% fact, 60% Hollywood myth. Much has been made of "the big three killed Tucker, he was a threat to them". Some of that (a very small amount) is true, although at that time materials needed to make cars were in short supply, and the big three were first in line to get materials due to their substantial defense business. All of the "little five" independents had a rough time of it (Tucker is so small that it didn't count in that group), and that period was the beginning of their undoing, even as they all made record production numbers. Preston Tucker was his own worst enemy--a fast talking promoter-salesman (he had been an ace Packard salesman in the thirties) with little understanding of the complexities of running an automobile company.
There were lots of good ideas on the Tucker cars--most of which were not practical for their day. He (Tucker) sold lots of radios to go into the IP of your Tucker (when it was shipped) and the dealers sold luggage sets--my father remembers a dealer over by U-D that had no car on the showroom floor, just pictures and lots of luggage sets--the purchase of the luggage set put you in line for a car when ready. This was not an uncommon practice. The big three dealers were doing this--all of the veterans that came home from WWII had money, their wives had money from all of that defense work, and the stock of pre-war cars were pretty tired. Everyone needed new cars, the dealers knew this, and there were all of these tricks being employed by the dealers to get more money out of the sale of each car. My friend's father was told he had to buy a $600 Frigidare freezer to get a favorable spot in line to get a new $1,400 Chevrolet!
I have not heard about that Tucker basket case since the November '02 Novi auction. The new owner is probably paying his monthly restoration shop bill, as they try to make a car out of it.
Top of pageBottom of page

Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10389
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW! Thanks for the info, and I can't wait to sit down over cheap beers and hear all about all this and more, first hand. Sure wish I could have seen that Tucker in the booth, basket case/red headed stepchild or not, still would have been a moment to remember.
Top of pageBottom of page

56packman
Member
Username: 56packman

Post Number: 479
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 65.185.132.134
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supersport--here is what you would have seen if you were able to gain entrance to the Hudson's bldg. in 92-93. Some of these cars were sold after then, different units replaced them.Hudson's
Top of pageBottom of page

Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2720
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.234.183.131
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder what his auto insurance bill was ... :-)
Top of pageBottom of page

Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2721
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.234.183.131
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

re tucker, I was at an afternoon matinee at the birmingham maple theater back when that movie came out and there was a trailer for it. A couple of old guys in front of me started heckling the screen during the preview about the movie being fantasy and tucker having no idea about building cars etc.. After the movie I asked the guys what was up and they said that they were retired auto execs and that tucker was a full of shit car salesman who suckered some investors in the post war auto shortage and that was about it. They said there dozens of better stories from the auto biz than Tucker's and that the movie was typical anti big three BS.
Top of pageBottom of page

The_rock
Member
Username: The_rock

Post Number: 1343
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although slightly off-track, I hope that with the temporaory closing of the Historical Museum for "renovation", Bob Cosgrove will be asked to serve as a consultant in the revamp of the Glancy train collection.
God only knows who is going to eventually be chosen to run the Dossin Museum with the latest shakeup.
Top of pageBottom of page

Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10395
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good stuff on this thread! Anybody else out there with more info or experiences?
Top of pageBottom of page

Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2822
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.211.167
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was there for a stag party for my buddy Al Lichtenstein [now Nederlander Detroit manager] about 25 years ago.

The place was like a kid's fantasy run amok. Along with a fabulous collection of cars in perfect condition, it seemed like a hundred, there was still three of the aforementioned bowling lanes, a pool hall game room and a bar. Kughn also had a giant luxury RV for UM tailgating house there with UM loudly painted on it. The entire place was spotless with cleanly uniformed mechanics and staff continually buffing.

The car that sticks in my head was something like a 1910 Renault with what appeared to be gold appointments. The interior with finely stitched silk padding was fit for a king. There were about three Auburns and, I'm pretty sure, a Duesenberg and a Cord. [How's my memory 56 Packman?] I can't recall the Tucker because I was so overwhelmed by the vast collection so surprisingly housed in that unassuming building on Grand River.

Driving past it last week, I notice that the building is for sale.

I was told at that time that he had a copy of every model train every produced in the US and there were walls and walls of them. When he bought Lionel a few years later, all I could think was, "Yup, makes complete sense to me."
Top of pageBottom of page

56packman
Member
Username: 56packman

Post Number: 487
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 129.9.163.234
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell, did the Duesenberg look like this?

Dusey
Top of pageBottom of page

Tayshaun22
Member
Username: Tayshaun22

Post Number: 289
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 69.14.101.116
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep on pouring in the pics! I love it!
Top of pageBottom of page

Hornwrecker
Member
Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1362
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 66.2.148.63
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went to an open house at Carrail, that was held regularly for the TCA (Train Collectors Assoc). It was still under construction then, layouts only framed in.

The Deusie was there in a small side room crammed with stuff. Is that a J model?

A few other cars that I remember seeing that haven't been mentioned yet, was a late 30s LaSalle convertible in two-tone pumpkin paint scheme, and a V-16 Cadillac limo.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.