  Kpm Member Username: Kpm Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 12.104.180.67 |
Brownstones part of man's vision Ferry St. development features eight units that will be customized to buyers' specifications. DETROIT -- It's taken 17 years, but Julio Bateau has certainly changed the look of East Ferry Street. He's renovated and rebuilt falling-down houses and turned worn properties into snappy condos. Now, on a former vacant lot, he and Joel Lerman, along with the architectural vision of Alexander V. Bogaerts, have built the first eight brownstones of Centurion Place, a several-part project that Bateau says will eventually amount to about 58 upscale residential units. http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060728/BIZ03 /607280311/1012 The interior looks amazing in these photos. Has anybody been inside yet? | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1206 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
they look great yet not a one has sold...the exorbitant price might have something to do with it (~$330K for the cheapes unit). I live in the neighborhood and pay SIGNIFIGANTLY less per month than a mortgage on one of those would be. heck a entire six unit apartment building on my street went for about that amount just a few years ago. I gotta give the guy credit though, ferry street has come a lonq way in the past few years, there is also a in-fill duplex going up on ferry between brush and beubian that he is part of (Message edited by gravitymachine on July 28, 2006) (Message edited by gravitymachine on July 28, 2006) | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 164 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 12.45.2.184 |
Damn those look good.313 | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 870 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
I've gone on the tour. The units have very high end finishes, and they will customize ANYTHING you want - the model even has an elevator from the garage up to the third floor. Part of the the high cost has to do with the materials, and the old world craftsmens they have used. You can still find affordable rent in this neighborhood, but there are a few rehabs that have sold for near this price, and the first townhomes by the Hubbel Group cost around 300k. Are they expensive? Yeah, but they are very high end. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 912 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.255.241.33 |
it never ceases to amaze me how people just go ga-ga for neo-classical, no matter how poor the design. those look terrible on the outside. the proportions are off, the materials look cheap, and it reminds me of those fake streetscapes they put into amusement parks. i mean c'mon, somebody's front door it not 2 feet away from somebody else's garage door (which also is against code, btw.). i can give you several reasons why one hasn't sold yet. 1) the interior quality far surpasses the exterior quality. 2) price range too high for that neighborhood [yes it is a very nice area, but i don't think it has the word of mouth yet]. 3) price range too high for space provided: only 2 bedrooms and top out at 1900 sq.ft. 4) no storage/unfinished space like a basement. 5) location is more apt to bring in younger professionals and students than more affluent ones. now, don't get me wrong. the interiors do look very nice. and i do appreciate what that group has done/is doing for the area (despite my personal opinion and dealings with them...). -RSA (RockStArchitect) | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 863 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 89.136.139.22 |
"...the exorbitant price..." I'm cheap, so for me it's somewhat expensive for what I paid a block away. But these properties present an excellent ROI in comparison to the shit western suburbs. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1207 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
do you live in the neighborhood as well mrjoshua? | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 864 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 89.136.139.22 |
But of course! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2499 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.81 |
Why do Architects today still deride new variations of old styles as "Pastiche", and yet 99% of all new houses built today are STILL based on the old styles? I do agree that the corner unit is ugly (if ever a house screamed for a planted ivy wall covering), and that some of the features (like vinyl siding on the side of dormers) look cheap. But maybe they had to cut some corners to keep the prices from being even higher than they are. Also, I think that the units have garage doors on the back, but the corner unit had to have it on the front. "Form follows function!" | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 913 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.255.241.33 |
this is exactly a case of pastiche. with all due respect to mr. bogaerts, each townhouse is from a different style glued together. and then, most details are cut and pasted on the facade of each townhome. but, the main problem here (aside from my obvious distaste for regurgitation in an artistic field) is that these are utlizing classical details without giving much thought to the classical orders in which they were originally utilized. thus is what gives such a disorganized and clumsy appearance. i think the best term to reference this project is simulacrum, specifically the post modern understanding of the word: something that is copied so many times that there is no longer an original to it. secondarily: or that the original has lost meaning due to the amount it is copied. and i fail to understand your refence to mies in this one. how does the function of a garage (to park cars) necessitate it's entrance placed next to a front door? and doesn't the form already follow it's function, even tho most of it's buried within the building itself? | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 165 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 12.45.2.184 |
A little bitter are we RSA! 313 | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 914 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.255.241.33 |
if engaging in a discussion about architecture and presenting an opposing viewpoint is equivalent to being bitter, i guess i am... have a great weekend all! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2502 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.81 |
No he's not bitter... just a different POV, nothing wrong with that! I used the Miesian term because in this case the corner unit literally didn't have a back to it. It had 2 front sides, and 2 sides connecting to other units. So there was no place else to put the connected garage than on one of the 2 front sides. | ||
Atl_runner Member Username: Atl_runner Post Number: 1945 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.98.116.13 |
There are so many reasons why those look so much better than much of what's built today that it would take to long to list them. I can see why an architect would have a strong opinion, but in reality, who really cares just how representative of classical architecture they really are. They look good. That's all that matters to most of us. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1208 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.136.142.0 |
all you'd have to do is stand at the corner of ferry and beubien and look directly across the street to the north to see why the centurion, while not following any specific architectural idiom, is still a magnificent step forward | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1731 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.187.234 |
I have to agree, this really does look a lot better than any of the new townhomes built downtown. If you're going with contextual, at least make it pretty. Seeing these in person also makes a big difference. I wasn't a huge fan until I drove by one day. They are quite nice. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2503 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.249 |
As folks have already stated, some of the Post Modern archaic styles looks awful, some looks great. This is one of the better ones. I do have one pet peeve about modern windows that doesn't translate well to old styles. That is how they create the "mullioned" (multipane) windows. In the olden days (until 1950s?) they used individual window panes in a larger wooden frame. Well now they have the double glazed windows with the mullions all within the glass. That (to me) looks so fake, even from a distance. There must be something about the sculptural effect and play on light about real mullioned windows, that makes the new flat ones look fake and uninspiring. The worst are the Palladian windows with this effect. I believe however that there are new windows on the market that are still a single (double pane) piece of glass, but have mullions on the outside. Those are nice. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2504 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.249 |
Also, in regards to Ferry Ave., this street has been one of Preservation Waynes bigger success stories. They were promoting and hyping Ferry Ave. for the last 20 years. It's a good thing that CCS wasn't bursting at the seams 20 years ago, otherwise much of this street could have been lost to CCS expansion. And hats off to Julio Bateau, an immigrant from one of the Carribean island nations. He has done wonders for Ferry Ave. God Bless him!! One last thing... the Merrill-Palmer Institute was built on a site on Ferry Ave. where 2 mansions once stood (they were nice, but not of the quality of Hecker-Smiley and Freer mansions). As much as I think that the institute is a great addition to the neighborhood, it is starting to looks just a wee bit out of place on that increasingly more historic looking street. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 306 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.242.223.67 |
As I remember the mid-80's, William (Bill) Colburn was the driving force behind Presevation Wayne's clearly focused efforts to preserve Ferry Street' s housing. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 3563 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.47.100.44 |
I think these places definitely liven the neighborhood up. Sure, they're a little pricey and maybe the developers over estimated the market there but aesthetically I think that these are a lot more unique looking than so many of the other box condo projects that have sprung up in the recent years. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1732 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.187.234 |
Gistok - I worked on a project in Ann Arbor several years ago (that was never built) that called for true, warehouse style paned windows. It was a great building, intended to be modern while mixing in with the warehouse buildings of the near west side of downtown. Individually paned windows look GORGEOUS but they are prohibitively expensive for most projects. The windows with the mullions on the outside of the double-paned glass, sadly, still look like there is an overlay on the window. It's sad there is not solution for this dilemma in creating a historic look. I feel like there is money to be made for someone who can figure this out. | ||
Michael Member Username: Michael Post Number: 757 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.21.35.176 |
Bottomline, if you want the look of single paned windows, you will be paying for it, either directly in the manufacturing of the window or indirectly with heating costs.
It's not just a feeling, you're speaking the truth. Hmm, now where did I put my drawing board? | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 69.212.57.9 |
Marvin produces sashes that can be built as "adl" or Authentic Divided Light. The size and pattern of the mullions can even be specified. I have used these on a few projects (ones that got built) as both single pane with period storms and double pane insulated glass. Bottom line is most developers either are cheap and force the architect to omit the important features of the finer details or they hire bad architects who don't spend the proper energy on the finer details. Me? I say the hell with building things to blend. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 855 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
One thing that stands out to me the most about this project is its height. These are three-story buildings. They look like they are built for high density. I always get a little depressed when I see developments in the city's central core that are only two stories. We should be building for higher density with a minimum of three stories. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 135 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 68.62.6.138 |
Just drove though the neighborhood yesterday after seeing this thread...I was surprised at how pleasant the area was, though if you drive a half-mile in any direction, things begin to look not-so-pleasant again...still, glad to see the reversal a long trend | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
the site i am including is a good perspective on planning especially the types of homes discussed on this thread. http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne ws/local/bal-md.kelly29jul29,0 ,4505897.column?coll=bal-home- columnists | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 95 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 141.217.214.203 |
If you're ever over that way taking pictures of Centurion Place, be mindful of the people that live in those aweful-looking townhouse-like things. I got barked at almost every time I went over there to take pictures...one time as petty as "STANDING ON MY SIDEWALK!!!" | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2512 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.175 |
OK, now I really confused.... first someone said that none of the units have sold.... and then someone else got yelled at by some of the unit owners! Huh?? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4694 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
You all gotta love gentification.  It's turning a black and blighted east side Detroit ghettohood into a rich white hip cool community. Those remaining black owned family flats near I-94 and I-75 FWY is next. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1212 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
first off, the investor who built centurion is carribean-american, second there are several african-american owned houses and townhouses on all sides of centurion place. (Message edited by gravitymachine on July 31, 2006) | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1737 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
ummm...are you trying to argue with Danny? | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 163 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 206.81.45.34 |
he's carribbean-american...nowhere near africa and for RSA - i worked for a piece-of-shiat firm that did a couple of rehabs for Mr. Bateau back in '01-'02, and we were supposed to get this project back then as well. my designs were more modern, and if i can find them, i will try and get them scanned. these are OK, i think, and yes a huge step above the tributes to vinyl siding to the north. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1213 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.136.142.0 |
my apologies, it has been corrected | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 97 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 141.217.173.140 |
Quote ---------- OK, now I really confused.... first someone said that none of the units have sold.... and then someone else got yelled at by some of the unit owners! Huh?? ---------- No, I was referring to the homes on the other side of Ferry from Centurion Place. The people there (ok person) who hollered at me obviously didn't want me around. Standing on HER sidewalk was not allowed. Some neighbors these new residents will have. *le sigh* | ||
Panson Member Username: Panson Post Number: 800 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I don't see any brownstone on any of these "Brownstones". Rowhouses, maybe. Townhomes, probably. Brownstones, nope. I'm with RSA on this one. These look very confused to me. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4697 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.230 |
Gravitymachine, Not for long just wait about 20 years that the predominatly black area will be transformed into a hip cool young white empty nesters neighborhood. Housing is a heavy demand in the midtown district. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Ah, gotta love the whole race-baiting... At least progress moves on dispite this foolishness. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 543 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.133.35.237 |
From Rsa: This is a well-stated critique. This is a difficult issue indeed given the constraints of market rate construction in Detroit. Centurion's proportions are off in several respects and the vinyl siding on the dormers is inexcusable. Nonetheless, I think that the project still provides an attractive street elevation that holds its own against both the new and existing architecture of the neighborhood. A vast improvement over some of the modular vinyl sided stuff that is getting built in other parts of Detroit. I think that the project will improve with the patina of age. The growth of landscaping and street trees can disguise some architectural missteps. The window dilemma is also another tough one. Successfully executed examples of classic and revival architectural styles almost always benefit from real or "true" divided light windows. Thousands of handsome Tudor revival homes built in the 1920's to 1940's on the east and west sides as Detroit expanded have had their character destroyed in the past 15 years or so by the installation of Wallside and Hanson "picture" windows. A real shame and even though the windows are new, their "add on" look probably hasn't added value to the homes where they are installed. Not sure why, but the Hanson/Wallside look hasn't made much of an inroad in houses built in the same era in southern Oakland County and in the Grosse Pointes. The bottom line with the Centurion project is that it is pushing the envelope of the market in Detroit. It's very important that the project succeed. | ||
Michikraut Member Username: Michikraut Post Number: 172 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 217.232.119.57 |
Thanks Swingline, pretty much covered my thoughts to the penny- it is a good critique and not a "bitter" ranting. The proportions are wrong and too flat! With so much "detailing" going on- there should be some shadowing and depth. It just looks flat and pasted on. Then again- still more imaginative than the Townhouses to the south with their way to much Vinyl. The falseness is comparable to many of the "mini-Mcmansions" going up in suburbs with "pick&choose detailing" without a general idea of what style and direction the house is going in. Yes- Architects do see this "mishmash" and cringe(either while as an Classicist the wrongness hurts - or as Modernist the pastiche is maddening.) but the majority don´t know better and think it is pretty and different. sigh! What is one to do! Anyway- these developments are better than most and if help fill in a streetscape and bring density-then they are a positive addition. P.s. I don´t think they will age well as someone stated above. If the details are just pasted on and not part of the building construction- they will not be replaced when they fall off and material will not hold up as well or do their objective. Get some Ivy planted quickly and hope it grows fast- though also destructive to buildings but it covers many sins. |
