Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Questions on Concealed Weapons Permits « Previous Next »
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 74
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone here obtained one since Michigan passed that law 5 years ago?

Do the numerous restrictions defeat the purpose of having one? How was that 8 hour class?

I've been leaning towards getting one since I'll be commuting into downtown and back to the 'burbs 4 evenings a week for the next 3 years starting in August...

Any input would be appreciated.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 866
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 136.1.1.101
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown Detroit is very dangerous. I think you are taking proper precautions.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 75
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Being Downtown isn't the issue...it's the fact that I have to drive through the ouskirts in the evening to get back to the 'burbs, 4 nights a week (9-10ish) for 3 1/2 years...

I hope to avoid becoming a sitting duck like this guy did yesterday...

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060724/NEWS99/60724003


(Message edited by thejesus on July 24, 2006)
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1444
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.220.230.150
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unless you are ready to shot someone it is a waste.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 1044
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Posted From: 70.227.14.52
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TheJesus shouldnt have a problem drivin the mean sreets of Detroit at night.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 76
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's the idea...
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 461
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.69.106.3
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a number of freinds who have obtained a CCW. None found the prereqs or class to be prohibitive from an effort aspect.

It is a major resposibility. If you aren't prepared to go through the quasi-hassle of the paperwork, or are unwilling to sit through the class, it may not be a wise choice for you.
They may not be the case with you at all, I'm just sayin'...
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 462
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Posted From: 63.69.106.3
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Unless you are ready to shot someone it is a waste.




I don't know if I would go so far as to that, but I will say: When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Don't be the guy looking for the first excuse to use, consciously or not.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2014
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Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a fucking stupid idea. Stop listening to your idiot suburban neighbors. Commuting in and out of the city at anytime of day does not require a gun. There is no need for a gun unless you're visiting a crack houses after class.

If someone does try to rob you, By the time you get your gun out they will have already shot you.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 77
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Solarflare:

Thanks for the info.

I don't mind the paperwork or the class. I was just wondering what it was like.

I've been planning on getting the CCW for a couple years. I already have a Glock for the house but I live and work in two very low crime areas, so I just never got around to it.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 463
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Posted From: 63.69.106.3
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool, just putting thoughts out there.

What caliber?
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 308
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Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The course is very easy if you have a bit of firearms experience. If you don't I would recommend taking a defensive shooting course as well as the required 8 hour session. Hopefully you will never need it, but if you're often in questionable areas or you travel it's definitely a nice thing to have. I've only had one occasion where I felt threatened enough to unholster my weapon. Fortunately the moron trying to force open my hotel door at 3 A.M thought twice when I informed him that I was armed.
The only restriction that often affects me is the inability to carry while in establishments that serve alcohol. In Michigan the law allows you to carry in some, but not others. Unfortunately the line dividing the two is not very clear. If you are a student the laws against carrying on school property may also be a difficulty.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 464
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Posted From: 63.69.106.3
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ka-pow

This past weekend.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 78
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ndavies:

Tell that to the guy who was carjacked yesterday in the link I posted. These criminals prey on people because they don't expect you to be able to defend yourself.

And I was paying more attention to freep.com and the CampusWatch newsletter that WSU puts out each month which lists the number of robberies, assaults, larcenies and muggings on and around campus. There are always several.

I'm just not in the habbit of simply hoping nothing bad happens to me. I'd rather do something about it.

And to quote a Quentin Tarantino movie if I may:"It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it"
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5709
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Posted From: 209.216.150.127
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I already have a Glock for the house but I live and work in two very low crime areas, so I just never got around to it.




Right so now that you'll be working downtown and spending up 15 minutes on the I-75, I-96 or I-94 at night that gun needs some mobility.

LOL....

You Yanks are funny.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 79
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"What caliber?"

It's a Glock 26...subcompact 9MM...small enough to carry comfortably but it still holds 10 rounds...plus I have a '+ 1" grip attached to it so it really holds 11..

If I get the CCW, the 26 will probably stay in the car and I may get a .40 for the house.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7552
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Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

the 26 will probably stay in the car




If you have a CCW permit do not leave a gun in the car. Actually don't ever leabe a gun in a car, regardless of where you are.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 81
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnny5:

I know that schools are considered 'Pistol-free zones' but I believe the law was amended a couple years ago that made it so the parking lots of the PFZ's aren't considered part of the PFZ so that you can leave your weapon in the car.

Is this correct?
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2015
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Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So tell that to the off duty cop who got car jacked two months ago. The cop got shot trying to defend himself. The car jacker got away. I'm sure that cop had way more training than you do.

Also you won't be able to take the Gun into Wayne State. So it will sit in your car for the four hours you're in class. I'd put money that that gun will get stolen.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 82
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiw:

Assume over the course of three years my car breaks down once on Woodward or Gratiot north of downtow...I don't know, flat tire or something...what then?

Like I said, I'm not in the habbit of just hoping nothing bad happens.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 83
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ndavies:

I suppose if I were in an IDENTICAL situation as the cop, the criminal would have gotten away too...

And the possibiliy of my firearm being stolen from the parking garge doesn't seem to be a valid reason not to get one.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2805
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Posted From: 66.167.210.199
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The stats are all there. If you carry a gun you are something like 25 times more likely to shoot yourself or someone close to you than a perp.

I hope it never happens to you, as it has to me, but when you get jacked / robbed most likely you will see never it coming until you have a gun in your face or back. Then you will lose both your money and the gun [No I wasn't carrying a gun]. Better to learn the ways of the rabbit.

If you have to use a gun, be prepared to have a long court battle[s].

If you are cool with all that good luck and "happiness is warm, warm gun." Most likely psychological satisfaction and the perception of security will be your only reward.
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Johnnny5
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Post Number: 309
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Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to Michigan law yes you are now able to carry while in the parking lot or driving on school grounds. Federal laws on the other hand make doing so a somewhat risky behaviour. I'm not an expert by any means, but the "Gun free school zone" laws may come into play depending on the exact situation. I remember there being a couple of ongoing cases addressing the issue, but I have not been following them. Either way being forced to leave your pistol in your car on a regularbasis is definitely risky.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1446
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.220.230.150
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Federal Law would trump Michigan law.


quote:

I don't know if I would go so far as to that, but I will say: When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Don't be the guy looking for the first excuse to use, consciously or not.




Not what I meant. What I meant was having a gun is not really that safe unless you are prepared to use in a life or death situation and can actually follow through. It does you no good in the position that your life is threatened and you freeze. Just becuase you have a gun does not mean the other person doesn't and more than likely also knows how to use or is not scared to use it.

you would be surprised how much this happens.
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 612
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Posted From: 69.246.10.173
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you can't take them into school, hospitals, government building, venues seating over 2500 people, bars or any location where 75% of the profit is derived some liquor.... there are a lot of places you can't carry it... SOOOOOOOOO is it worthwhile for you? Will you have a place to keep it when you go into these restricted areas?

The car is not a safe place.. we've had many postings in the last few months where people had their weapons stolen from the car whether its hidden or not does not matter.. you car gets stolen.. there goes your gun and guess who has to deal with that?

It's been taking like 6 months to get the process started and finished in Wayne County...

check out www.packing.org for more info..

If you all this makes sense, Target Sports n Royal Oak and Pete's in Rosevill offer the class for about $150.. PLUS the CCW fees and assesments
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Islandman
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Username: Islandman

Post Number: 296
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Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As Lowell (and Ndavies) said, you will more than likely not have time to do anything about it if you are carjacked and they are armed. You will definitely get shot if you try to reach for it and they are armed.

Considering the number of auto thefts in Detroit and the campus, leaving a gun in the car is not a great idea. A flashlight it is not.

I am frequently in the not so nice areas of Detroit. There has only been one occasion the past 5 years that I would have liked to be armed. I'd rather take my chances than the added responsibility of carrying one around all of the time.

After years of carrying one around in the military every day, I don't miss it. Every piece that I've had was sold as soon as I had my first kid.. Glad they are gone.
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Bvos
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Posted From: 134.215.223.211
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Being Downtown isn't the issue...it's the fact that I have to drive through the ouskirts in the evening to get back to the 'burbs, 4 nights a week (9-10ish) for 3 1/2 years...




Damn, you mean I've been living, working, driving, walking, bicycling, shopping and more in the "outskirts" of Detroit's neighborhoods for 5 years now and my wife, kids AND I haven't had a gun! We've never run into a single situation where our lives or property ever felt threatened, but what was were we thinking!!!

I'm running out to buy two guns for everyone, including my 2 1/2 year old son and 6 month old daughter (it's never too early to teach responsible gun ownership and the exercise of our Constitutional rights!), right NOW!
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 239
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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guns aren't allowed on school property at all. The LAST place you want to leave a gun is in a car in a school parking lot!! Cars get taken from school parking lots EVERYDAY! I would not let a gun out of my sight if I had a CCW. If someone is going to shoot at you, you'll get shot at if you have a gun or not. I've been driving to Detroit in the dark and coming home in the dark for 10 years. Never had a problem. I figure if I have a gun, it's more likely to get used on me before I can use it on someone else. Just a word of advice, DON'T TAKE YOUR GUN ONTO SCHOOL PROPERTY CCW OR NOT.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 465
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Posted From: 63.69.106.3
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to add that I personally would never leave a gun in a vehicle unattended, just too much risk, IMO.

I'd also have to agree that in a car-jack situation, you'd have a gun in your face before you could ever chamber a round. (Unless you are one of those people who aren't afraid to have a bullet in the pipe, I'm not.)

That being said, there IS a such thing as responsible gun ownership, and nobody knows the exact circumstances of another's life. And firearms ARE used lawfully and rightfully to defend one's life, or the life of their loved ones.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 466
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Posted From: 63.69.106.3
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and since we're on the topic:
:-)
Treat every firearm as if it is loaded

Always point the muzzle in a safe direction

Keep your finger off the trigger

Never rely on a mechanical safety

Keep gun unloaded and action open until ready to shoot

Know your target and what's beyond it

Use only the correct ammunition for your firearm

Know what to do in the event of a misfire

Wear protective ear and eye equipment

Keep firearm free from obstructions and well maintained

Don't modify your firearm

Do not mix guns with alcohol, drugs, or fatigue

(not directed to you in particular Thejesus)
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Johnnny5
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Post Number: 310
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Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitteacher your statement is incorrect. There are many exceptions that allow someone to legally possess a firearm on school property, unfortunately they are very complicted and seem to change on an regular basis.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 242
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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just for an average joe or an employee (it's in our workbook for employees)it is NOT acceptable to have a gun on school property. Even our security guards aren't allowed to carry weapons. The only people allowed to have weapons on school property are the police and other such law enforcement. Not sure about WSU, but public schools in ANY city prohibit weapons for anyone. Same as drugs.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 467
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Posted From: 63.69.106.3
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And even a cop may not know what the hell they are doing:

duck

http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/gunsafety.asp
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 84
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't buy the "you shouldn't defend yourself because you won't have time to react" argument.

That only applies to the situations you can think of in your mind right at this moment. A firearm is for the situations you can't think of...and in those situations, it's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it...

And I know everyone has their opinions on guns, but I'm not really asking for anyone's opinion on whether carrying a gun is a good idea or not...

My question was really about the CCW and for people who have them or are familiar with them...

(Message edited by thejesus on July 24, 2006)
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2016
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Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From : http://www.legislature.mi.gov/ documents/publications/firearm s.pdf


quote:

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to
subsection (1); violation.
Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from
licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying
a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the
child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of
the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.


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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 85
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ndavies:

See #1 and #10 here:

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0, 1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-1094 7--,00.html
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus, that is what NDavies said. No parking lots, but a parent can carry one IN THE CAR if picking up or dropping off. That doesn't mean they can get out of the car and walk into the school with it.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 88
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitteacher:

Incorrect. Please see #10 in the link I posted.

Parking lots of the 'pistol free zones' are not considered part of the 'pistol free zone'.

In the link that Ndavies posted, see MCL 28.425o Section (2)
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10350
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Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thejesus,

I carry 7 days a week, everywhere the law will allow. For info email me at supersport350 at hotmail, as I'm not gonna step into the crossfire on here. The gun legislature also changed as of last week in regards to self defense.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 89
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supersport:

Thanks.I didn't mean for this to turn into a debate, but what can you do? ; )

And I just saw that news story about Granholm signing the law to allow people to use deadly force after you mentioned it...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,204720,00.html

(Message edited by thejesus on July 24, 2006)
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5710
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Posted From: 64.228.192.190
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well you can't blame Supersport for having a gun, after all he lives on the "fringe".

(Message edited by aiw on July 24, 2006)
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5711
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Posted From: 64.228.192.190
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

T.J. only thing on this forum that will spark more heated debate than guns is abortion... :-)
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 245
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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, misread that one.
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Fjw718
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Username: Fjw718

Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 38.117.242.163
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow, you suburbanites are awful, awful strange
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 90
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Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FJW:

That's why we live out here...we were too strange for the city-folk so they pushed us out.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 880
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

here's the law...


quote:

28.425 Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation.

Sec. 5.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

(2) Abridged

(3) As used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

(4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

(a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.

(b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.

(c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the private detective license act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.

(d) Any of the following who is licensed under this act while on duty and in the course of his or her employment:

(i) A corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.

(ii) A motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.

(iii) A member of a sheriff's posse.

(iv) An auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.

(v) A parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.


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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 467
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.43.81.191
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You absolutely can carry concealed on the WSU campus. You just can't carry in the dorms or classrooms, those are considered "pistol-free zones." But you can walk around the campus all you want while armed. The "schools" that everyone keeps referring to as pistol-free zones are the grade school, middle school, and high school variety, NOT colleges and universities. The only part of colleges that are pistol-free are the dorms and classrooms.

And do not for any reason leave your pistol in your car. If you know you are going someplace where you aren't allowed to carry, then don't take a gun along at all. Cars get broken into at WSU all the time, I know of one instance where someone had their back window busted out by a homeless guy because he wanted the empty cans in the back of the car.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10358
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everybody needs to come back to reality. Go check out the Bronx Bar thread. Perhaps I can send up crime updates from my neighborhood, where 5 people were held up at gun point a few days ago and robbed.

There are so many misconceptions on this thread it is unbelievable. Lowell, "something like" 25 times more likely? I'm confident that these people were not properly trained to own a fire arm in the first place. So many people purchase a gun because they feel they need it, only to store it in their night stand, closet, or someplace else, never using it. MOST people who actually complete the training course I have found to carry their weapon at all times, are very comfortable carrying it, and even frequent the gun range, so as not to accidentally shoot themselves because they are unfamiliar with guns.

Do you HAVE to have a gun to live, work, or go to school in Detroit? No, of course not. You don't have to have a gun to live anywhere. Yet why is it that people jump all over somebody's shit for inquiring? Ak47 fire, multiple muggings, increased break-ins, higher murder rate than last year thus far, all the signs are there people.

Why criticize somebody for wanting to utilize their constitutional right? I got news for you, the classes to take these courses fill up fast. You often have to sign up weeks in advance to get in a class, so this guy is hardly in the minority. I work in an office of 11, and 2 of us have permits, another recently inquired. My block with a dozen or so houses has a minimum of 3 people who can legally carry, with others nearby recently inquiring as well.

That's all fine and dandy if you don't care to carry a gun. It wouldn't matter if I lived in the safest suburb around, at some point I still would have applied for my permit, and still would have wore it whenever the law said I could. That's the beautiful thing about this country and this state, as it's legal to do so.

Thejesus,

In regards to storing the gun in your car, just be smart about it. Inquire at a local gun shop, for a few hundred dollars or less you can get a portable safe that could be bolted, or even welded (preferred), into your trunk. You obviously want the weapon to be secure, incase somebody was to break into the car they could not steal it. If somebody was to steal your car, you took every precaution you could have to prevent them from obtaining your gun.

Don't let people steer you away from a decision that should be your own. I had an great instructor I can recommend that gave me some great pointers that both improved my accuracy, as well as my gun safety.

Remember people, it was the SECOND amendment, second only to free speech, press, and right to assemble. It is the backbone upon which this country was built, and it's importance to our founding fathers exhibits this. Don't toss that right out the window and tar and feather somebody who inquires about this right.

I personally chose the Glock 23 .40cal (10mm)
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 884
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

If you carry a gun you are something like 25 times more likely to shoot yourself or someone close to you than a perp.




that may be true. the same odds apply to golfers being struck by lightning. if only we could legislate due caution and common sense.

supersport, the g23 fires .40 cal rounds, but would choke on a 10mm round. the bullets are the same diameter, but the cartridges are quite different. the g23 can also shoot .357 sig rounds with a conversion barrel - like mine.

now, a final piece of advice to all: the best way to survive a gunfight, is don't be in one.
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Pdtpuck
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Username: Pdtpuck

Post Number: 134
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 208.251.168.194
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I'm sure that cop had way more training than you do.



Don't know about MI, but my college roomie here in IL was studying Law Enfor., and he and I and another friend used to go shooting on the weekends...to make a long story a little longer, he was a HORRIBLE shot, and when I asked him about the way he cross-sighted (shooting right handed and closing his right eye!), he said, "Oh well, they'll show me how to shoot in academy." I said "WRONG! They'll shove a gun in your hand and say hit x amount of these targets!"...several years later I talked to him about this, and he said I was right, they never "trained" him to use his weapon, they just said "Here...hit X amount of targets!" He said it took him forever to "untrain" himself to cross-sight, and thousands of hours and $$$ at the range to become a decent marksman!!!!!! And how about those cops in CA that got into that gun fight at POINT BLANK RANGE? They couldn't hit the side of a barn! (Of course, maybe the stress of having an auto. assault rifle fired at you at point blank range might have something to do with it..........:-))
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Islandman
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Username: Islandman

Post Number: 300
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 4:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, let me put it like this:

I can 100% guarantee that if I wanted to "jack" Supersport or thejesus, you would not see it coming. Anyone that that has carried a firearm (i.e. a robber) would get you from day one.

Unfortunately, it would take this happening to you for you to see that. Good luck!

Before anyone says anything, I hope sincerely that this does not happen to you, but your security blanket is only going to make you more vulnerable.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1724
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.209.152.173
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 4:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's funny to me here is that someone said that the law says that you can walk around a college campus with a concealed weapon, but you can't go in the dorms or classrooms. Well, if you're a student, then how many times would you be walking on campus if you weren't going to class?

Like someone said earlier, there can be many grey areas when it comes to what the state law says and what the federal law says. Personally, trying to bring a concealed weapon to school is too problematic. Since I can't bring the gun into the classroom how do I protect myself between walking from my car to class and vice versa? Do I stash the gun somewhere before I go to class and then retrieve it when I'm done? That wouldn't be practical.

If I was concerned about possibly being attacked while driving to and from school, then I would follow Supersport's suggestion and get a safe and weld it to the trunk of my car and keep the gun there. However, I will have to remember each time that I go to class to put the gun in the safe before I go to class and then retrieve it when I leave to go home. Honestly, that just sounds like too much work just to go to school.
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Islandman
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Username: Islandman

Post Number: 303
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 5:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thecarl,

Excellent post. Until you're in the middle of it, you'll never know. I've actually been shot at before, and it ain't fun. In Detroit, and in the "fog of war". Pardon my French, but shit is always different depending on the situation.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 469
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.112.56.3
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supersport,
Well said.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 91
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Islandman:

I can 100% guarantee YOU that if my car breaks down while I'm driving through the ghetto on my way home, neither you nor anyone else would get within 25 feet of me while I'm waiting for the tow truck if I'm carrying...

Like I said, it's for situations you CAN'T think of right now where a firearm comes in handy...obviously it's useless in the scenario in which the attacker sneaks up on you and catches you completely of guard...but many of you act as if those are the only circumstances in which a person ever gets robbed, threatened or attacked...that is not the case


(Message edited by thejesus on July 25, 2006)
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 399
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You think if you drew a gun in the ghetto, no one would shoot you from more than 25 feet away? Haha.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 252
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A handgun is no match for an AK 47. I can bet that someone out to harm you would do it quicker than you could if they see you have a gun. You'd just have to go around shooting first and asking questions later. If your car breaks down are you going to sit outside of your car brandishing your gun? Doubt it. If you did, they'd peg you off sniper style.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10362
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Peg you off sniper style...with what? Didn't realize people in the hood were so good with rifles, or even wandered around with them equipped with scopes. Do they have night vision goggles too?

Most people in the hood couldn't hit the side of a barn from 25 feet.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7562
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I can 100% guarantee YOU that if my car breaks down while I'm driving through the ghetto on my way home, neither you nor anyone else would get within 25 feet of me while I'm waiting for the tow truck if I'm carrying...




I guess ALL people that live in a bad neighborhood must be bad. I agree that there are bad neighborhoods but you are starting to sound like the guy that would shoot someone offering to help you with your tire.
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 3531
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.226.45.189
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But they seem to be good at hitting children and innocent bystanders.
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 96
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitteacher:

Yes, there are situations in which being armed won't help a victim. But you act as though EVERY sitation is the same.

There are situations in which wearing a seat belt won't save you from being killed in a car crash, but is that a good reason to never wear a seat belt?

I didn't start this thread to debate whether carrying a firearm is a good idea. There are always going to be people who take no action and just hope nothing bad happens and people who do take action because they feel it is their responsibility to protect themselves. I belong to the latter.

But can we please end the debate in this thread? The orignal question was about CCWs and whether the legal restrictions on them hinder their usefulness.
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Treez4brkfst
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Username: Treez4brkfst

Post Number: 123
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.21.61.1
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah I can see it now:

Violent Ghetto Dweller: Excuse me sir, can I help you with.....

God Fearing Surburbanite: Bang! Bang!
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Islandman
Member
Username: Islandman

Post Number: 305
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just call this guy if you get in trouble in the hood:

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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10364
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thejesus,

There are relatively few places you can't take them, all of which were listed by Thecarl above. Casinos, sports venues, schools, college classes and dorm, venues over 2,500, and places making their primary money from alcohol sales. There may be a few I missed, but that covers most scenarios.

The reason for the restrictions honestly make sense.

Casino: Remember the cop who lost several grand at Motorcity Casino a few years ago on the top floor? Then killed himself.

College classes and dorms: Remember a year or two ago when a student killed a WSU teacher or some other employee of WSU?

Sports venues: For a few reasons. First, lots of obnoxious drunks running their mouths, which may lead to a target rich environment. Secondly, there are obsessed sports fans out there that are liable to do something crazy.

Bars are obvious. Alcohol often leads people to acting differently than they normally would, no need in adding a gun to the mix.

For the record, it should be noted that it is a much greater offense to be carrying a gun and walking after drinking than it is to be drunk driving. The limit for somebody carrying a gun is .02 BAC, make note, that is NOT .20! Essentially, .02 would cover you if you took some cough syrup, and that is about it. One beer would have you probably teetering on the edge of the limit. Cross that line and depending upon what you blow, losing your CPL would be the least of your worries. You are looking at fines and possible jail time, even if carrying the weapon was the only thing you were guilty of.

Brandish your weapon, even if you didn't point it at somebody, and they will likely call the police and report "Some guy was pointing his gun at me." It will be their word against yours. If charged, you would not only get brandishing, but also felonious intent. Yeah, you heard right, a felony. Which essentially means you will never be able to carry that gun again and you now have a wrap sheet that stays with you for life.

A lot of people for one reason or another think that gun owners with CPL's are some gun totin' trigger happy radicals. Ironically, they forget that you are one of the most law abiding citizens out there. If you weren't, then you wouldn't be eligable of the license in the first place. There is a two page list of stipulations that would keep you from gaining a license.

In addition, you are now essentially on the governments watch list. They know who you are, your guns are obviously registered, and now you have a red flag on your drivers license telling every government law enforcement agent that you may have a gun in the car once they run your license plate and/or drivers license.

The classes are basically common sense classes, they are not that difficult. The purpose of the class is essentially to burn into your head that owning a gun is a HUGE responsibility. Most of the people on here seem to think its a license to kill with a get outta jail for free card. If you shoot somebody and it wasn't in self defense, then you go to prison, just like everybody else.
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Sticks
Member
Username: Sticks

Post Number: 89
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 69.136.140.132
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

T.J. only thing on this forum that will spark more heated debate than guns is abortion...

...and graffiti, suburbs versus the city...


I guess ALL people that live in a bad neighborhood must be bad. I agree that there are bad neighborhoods but you are starting to sound like the guy that would shoot someone offering to help you with your tire.

It only requires ONE bad person to turn a situation bad, not a whole neighborhood.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7572
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

It only requires ONE bad person to turn a situation bad, not a whole neighborhood.




Agreed but look at his statment.
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 887
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

any person with basic handgun competency should be able to identify two problems in the photo above:

1. the shooter's finger is on the trigger, yet the target has not been acquired. the index finger should rest lengthwise across the slide (top) of the gun.

2. the shooter's thumbs are crossed on the backstrap. when a shot is fired, the slide is propelled backward with great force, to eject the spent casing, and load the next round. the grip demonstrated above has resulted in thumbs with fractures, and large divots of flesh. ouch!
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Solarflare
Member
Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 474
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.112.56.3
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to mention The Equalizer usually just berated them with Limey-talk until they ran away, and rarely used a gun.

---
Well maybe he was into blasting people. Wiki covers that show, as a kid I always just remember him dressing-down the riff-raff.

(Message edited by solarflare on July 25, 2006)
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Islandman
Member
Username: Islandman

Post Number: 307
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He's The Equalizer. He merely has to look at you in that pose and felons will flee in terror.

He's even scary looking on the phone:
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Solarflare
Member
Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 475
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.112.56.3
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the mean streets of Detroit, you need...
show

someone is going to jack his ride, leaving the door open and the car running at night like that.

(Message edited by solarflare on July 25, 2006)
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 100
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JT1:

My response was sort of a parody of Islandman's statement. Of course I'm not going to shoot everyone I see if my car breaks down in the ghetto. One thing the anti-gun crowd fears the most is sane, competent citizens carrying weapons. When that happens, they don't get to brand the pro-gun crowd as crazies anymore. So I understand your motivation for trying to make it sound like I would shoot a guy offering to help me change a tire. But the truth is, that's just plain ridiculous.

(Message edited by thejesus on July 25, 2006)
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7576
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was going by your 25 feet statement, not an assumption about all gun owners.

There are many responsible gun owners. I chose not to own one because I believe that there is a much better chance that it will cause me harm or harm a loved one before it would assist me in combating potential violence.

That is my belief not necessaily the right one.
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 101
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I knew a guy who would never own a dog for the same reason...thought the chance it might bite his kid wasn't worth it...can't say I understand it, but not the first time I've heard someone express a similar opinion
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Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10365
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I chose not to own one because I believe that there is a much better chance that it will cause me harm or harm a loved one before it would assist me in combating potential violence.




So you are saying you would be an irresponsible gun owner? I wish all the other anti-gun crowd on here would simply state the same. That they don't feel comfortable handling guns, fear that they aren't responsible enough to buy a safe to keep it away from children, or are willing to learn what is and isn't legal. Instead of admitting that they simply come on here and attack anybody inquiring about guns. Simply say "I'd be an irresponsible gun owner," and be done with it next time.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 258
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<~~ I am deathly afraid of guns. I am all for someone's right to have them. I, on the other hand, just prefer to not have one. I would be afraid that in some groggy sleep induced state, I would not be able to handle it properly if an emergency did arise (even if trained to do so). Sometimes, I can't even distinguish between the phone and the alarm coming out of a sound sleep. I don't think I would be irresponsible with a gun but would be worried that in a state of panic (as in a robbery or other such violent act) that I wouldn't think rationally. Since I know this I would assume that having a gun in the house would more likely result in my getting shot with it (by an intruder. Both my parents and my sister and her family have guns in the house. My sister's husband is a cop and carries his everywhere, even off duty. They also deal better with stressful situations than I. It's not that I am anti-gun, it's more that the person doing the act of violence or robbery would probably be more experienced than I ever would be in the use of a gun. I don't have to be anti-gun to express an opinion about guns. If you want a gun, have at it. Just remember that whoever might do you harm already has their weapon ready. They aren't waiting for it to be a fair fight while you get your weapon out of the safe.
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Pdtpuck
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Username: Pdtpuck

Post Number: 141
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 208.251.168.194
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

reminder, hand guns aren't the best for HOME protection, either....
shotguns work much better (less chance for stray bullets to go through walls, injuring or even killing loved ones, spray from a shotgun blast covers a much wider area, etc.)
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 1044
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 3:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get the CCW. Be safe. Follow the law.

Got no problems with it. If it gives you piece of mind, then maybe it is worth it.

I've debated it with myself many times (I currently own a Beretta shotgun I use for sporting clays) but I've always ended up deciding against it because of the restrictions (most times I'd want to have it would be when I was going to establishments I couldn't carry it...late nights at restaurants/bars/theaters, etc), plus I figured if I'm going to be attacked or held up, they're gonna have the firearm ready and pointed at me before I even know what's happening. They see a gun on my hip, or I reach for the weapon, they're gonna be far more likely to shoot than if I simply gave them what they ask for.

The problem is those times when you may end up in a fight for your life that you might want it. Maybe not so much for the men, but rape for women. Or someone wants to force you into their vehicle, etc. It would be those times when I would like to have one and wouldn't hesitate to use it.

Ultimately, at least at this time, I find that the chances of those situations happening that I wish I had it are so so so so rare that it would be better not to have it for those situations that are more likely to happen and when I would NOT want it.

Bottom line. Get it if you want it. I have no doubt that if you pass the background, follow the laws, and get trained, that you will be a responsible owner. Hope you never have to use it.

Best of luck!
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7580
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

So you are saying you would be an irresponsible gun owner? I wish all the other anti-gun crowd on here would simply state the same.




BS assumption.

Not at all but even the most responsible people have accidents. The most responsible people's homes get broken into and locked guns get stolen. Things happen to the most responsible people.

I am a responsible driver but may still be in an accident.
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 106
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is all this about guns getting stolen? This is like the third or fourth time that someone has brought this up as if it were a reason to not own one.

So what if a gun gets stolen? You buy a new one.

My car could be getting stolen right now, but that certainly doesn't discourage me from owning one.

Absolute nonsense.

(Message edited by thejesus on July 26, 2006)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7584
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Big difference. What percentage of crimes are committed with stolen guns (stolen cars too). The difference is that I need a car to get to wqork. I don't need a gun for anything.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 108
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So you think you're fighting crime by not owning a gun, because it could be stolen and used in a crime?

Umm, ok.

So you must think criminals who have used stolen guns to commit crimes wouldn't have done so if they didn't have a gun to steal, yes? I'm sure they would have remained law biding citizens otherwise ::rolling eyes::

Sorry, but to me, the benefits FAR outweight the risks there.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7586
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stolen guns are never used in crimes. Never. Criminals that steal guns would find them anyways so we should just put more out there.

I am not frighting crime by not owning a gun but I am not putting the opportunity out there for a criminal to steal a gun from me.

But then again I am discussing this with someone that needs a gun to commute to WSU or downtown.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7587
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

According to the 1991 Survey of
State Prison Inmates, among those
inmates who possessed a handgun,
9% had acquired it through theft, and
28% had acquired it through an illegal
market such as a drug dealer or fence.
Of all inmates, 10% had stolen at least
one gun, and 11% had sold or traded
stolen guns.
Studies of adult and juvenile offenders
that the Virginia Department of
Criminal Justice Services conducted
in 1992 and 1993 found that 15% of
the adult offenders and 19% of the juvenile
offenders had stolen guns; 16%
of the adults and 24% of the juveniles
had kept a stolen gun; and 20% of the
adults and 30% of the juveniles had
sold or traded a stolen gun.




http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/p ub/pdf/guic.pdf#search='crimes%20%20stolen%20guns'

Are stolen guns used for a majority of crime? Nope. Does it contribute a decent amount of crime? Yes.

From the same article 'From 1985 to 1994, the FBI received an annual average of over 274,000 reports of stolen guns.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 477
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.112.56.3
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm as pro-gun as they come, but statements like this are questionable:


quote:

So what if a gun gets stolen?




Say that at the CCW class and see how it goes over.

Handguns are a hot commodity. Criminals WILL go far far far out of their way to steal one if they know where they can get one. Do you want the cops coming to you after your gun is used in a crime? Possibly with your fingerprints still on it? It IS your responsibility to ensure your weapon is secure, wether from children or thives. Honestly, you seem a little glib about that aspect...
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 109
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting, except that data doesn't really answer your question about how many crimes are comitted with stolen guns...

It's just says that 9% of inmates clai to have stolen a gun in the past...which is lower than I would have thought...
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 110
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If anyone is interested, I just found this website that tracks news stories involving firearms being use legally in self defense...

Intersting site to check out.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com /opsd/
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 111
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Solarflare:

I absolutely agree that it's my responsibility to make sure that my gun is secure, which is why it would ALWAYS remain secure.

But in the unlikely event that a burglar manages to crack the code on my safe, I would report the gun stolen...

So what's the problem here?
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Solarflare
Member
Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 478
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.112.56.3
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The NRA also has a good section in their American Riflemen magazine called "The Armed Citizen" that also details people who have used arms to protect themselves. Pretty good read.

But if you're saying that stolen guns being used in crimes is a non-issue, you are way out there. Never heard anyone in my life lobby for not protecting their firearms...

Like I said, bring it up at your CCW class.
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Solarflare
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Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 479
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.112.56.3
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We're crossing too many communication lines here. Good luck.

(Message edited by solarflare on July 26, 2006)
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 112
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.169.224.43
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Solarlare:

I think you misunderstood me. I am NOT arguing that it's a non issue, nor do I think firearms don't need to be protected from theft.

My position is simply that the POSSIBILITY that a firearm might be stolen and used in a violent crime is NOT in and of itself a valid reason not to own one.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10374
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So now we have to consider items we buy in fear that they may get stolen? Who the hell is the victim when FEAR of a crime affects what you can and can't own?

You could outlaw guns and rifles completely in this country, but criminals would still get them, just like any other illegal substance in this country. I'll never understand how poeple believe that making laws that in turn only affect law abiding citizens will trickle down to those that break the law.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7589
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

So now we have to consider items we buy in fear that they may get stolen?




Items that are used to kill. Absolutely.

WTF Sport - Follow the conversation.

I am not saying that guns should be outlawed. I am not saying that law abiding citizens sould not own them.

I am saying that it is my personal preference to not own one. I am also saying that the idea of theft (since I recall somewhere higher up that TJ would have to leleave his gun in his car at times) of a gun is a concern.

Your ridiculous love of guns clouds your thought process. I do not believe that guns should be outlawed. I think we need stronger controls on guns and more gun owners to think about possible consequences of gun ownership.
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E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 854
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.242.215.8
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anytime a handgun is stolen, the chances are quite high that it will be used in a crime soon after. And if it's used in a crime, the chances are still quite high that someone will die. This doesn't just include criminals or their targeted victims. It includes innocent bystanders. We're talking little children here. We see these stories way too often on the news. Imagine knowing that it was your stolen pistol that fired the fatal bullet(s). The handgun you accidentally left on your passenger seat. The same one some bumb or opportunistic criminal saw and broke into your car to steal in a matter of seconds. Remember those two stories about the cops who left their guns hidden in their vehicles downtown and came back to find them stolen earlier this summer? Where do you think those guns are now? I bet they're not locked away safely in someone's safe or being shot at a gun range.

People can pledge and pledge about how safe they are or are going to be with their handguns. The rest of us don't have to worry because these responsibility superheroes are on the job. But remember, you only have to slip up once for the bad guys to get a hold of your pistol, something that is lightweight and easy to conceal. Just one "Opps" can turn tragic very quicky. And just how responsible is the guy who says


quote:

"So what if a gun gets stolen? You buy a new one."




Do you think this person is going to take the time to weld or bolt a safe into the trunk of their car? Do you think they will consistently keep their handgun there? Are you willing to bet the lives of numerous people on that?

And don't give me that crap comparison to cars. Like jt1 said, I need a car to get to work. I don't need a handgun for anything unless I am a member of law enforcement. My stolen car doesn't fire off round after round in rapid succession.
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Solarflare
Member
Username: Solarflare

Post Number: 485
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.112.56.3
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And don't give me that crap comparison to cars. Like jt1 said, I need a car to get to work.




How about swimming pools? Nobody NEEDS one, but they kill plenty of kids every year. Rights are not about what one person thinks another person needs.


quote:

We're talking little children here.



Please, think of the children.
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 888
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

But in the unlikely event that a burglar manages to crack the code on my safe, I would report the gun stolen...




28.430 Theft of firearm; report required; failure to report theft as civil violation; penalty.

Sec. 10.

(1) A person who owns a firearm shall, within 5 days after he or she knows his or her firearm is stolen, report the theft to a police agency having jurisdiction over that theft.

(2) A person who fails to report the theft of a firearm as required under subsection (1) is responsible for a civil violation and may be fined not more than $500.00.
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Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 281
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

5 days? Kind of sounds a bit too long to wait to report a gun stolen!!
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Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 132
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.62.6.138
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

E_Hemingway:

A few point...

The law allows me to own a gun, and it allows me to keep it in my car.

The law DOES NOT, however, allow someone to break into my car, take my gun, and use it in a violent crime.

In the event this happens, this is 100% the fault of the person who broke the law, not the person who followed the law and got victmized by a criminal.

These are the rules we've all agreed to live by. If you don't like them, then either live somewhere else or STFU!

And if your car did get stolen, it very well could be used to kill someone. However, if that happened, the death is 100% the fault of the criminal and not your own.

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