Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Light Rail from AA to DET « Previous Next »
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Vandykenjefferson
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Username: Vandykenjefferson

Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.40.195.233
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just heard about this survey and I think you should all fill this thing out. Be sure to highlight your love of commuter/light rail!!

www.Michigan.gov/slrp
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 359
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.192.25.47
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh shit, here we go.
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 523
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 35.12.22.80
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Waiting for Trainman to recite his spiel...
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1687
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 75.10.21.159
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey VDK, I was just getting ready to post this link as well.

One thing that I found to be very disturbing is that there were no meetings held in Detroit and none are scheduled. There is an obvious desire on MDOT's part to skew things towards roads by not holding Detroit meetings.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 40
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.62.6.138
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the link...

Everyone make sure to add a comment at the end that we need a light rail system from Detroit to Ann Arbor and Detroit to Oakland county...
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 115
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My WebSite says it all
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 143
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 72.229.136.103
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Trainman, whats your website?.............I had to ask :-) 313
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 361
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.192.25.47
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...without really saying anything.
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Mountainman
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Username: Mountainman

Post Number: 89
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 153.90.110.121
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit313, don't get the wheel a turning.
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.79.99.249
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The logistics of building a light rail system from Ann Arbor to Detroit is mind boggling. I just don't ever see something like that happening.
Sometimes I think it would be cheaper for the government to buy everybody in S.E. Michigan a cheap little car.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 138
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.61.11.146
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But its not about the car anymore. Its about the price of gas.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1068
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People use cars and trucks to get places and move things. And yes, this will burn fuel. When they don't have anything to do, these vehicles are parked and not burning any fuel.

The trains and buses will run most or all of the day and night, even if there aren't anybody aboard other than the engineers or drivers. Oh, these vehicles burn a lot of fuel 24/7, even if unneeded...
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2733
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 69.17.38.195
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But people save fuel on their own cars, Livernois. Imagine Washington DC or New York City without public transit. Those cities would be too polluted to even walk around yet alone breathe!
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1070
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DC and NYC are cities with jobs that workers can go to. Somehow, that just doesn't describe most of the city of D.
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 138
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 68.40.195.233
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if this was here, NOW, i don't even work in detroit, but i'd be using it 2, 3, or 4 times a week. I currently drive to detroit from a2 AT LEAST once or twice a week. imagine being able to live in EITHER city and work in the other. once i'm in detroit, i plan on coming to Ann Arbor as frequently as I've been going to detroit since starting school here... it just makes sense. you'd be connecting the only two cities in michigan worth a rats ass. couple this with a woodward line going from CBD to Midtown to Ferndale to Royal oak, and i'd sell my car, never to buy one again. I'm being serious.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1072
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Link AA and SMART bus systems w/o any rail and save hundreds of millions. Would Andy take the bus? He should, but I doubt it.
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 139
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.42.220.61
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BRT doesnt make sense over such a long distance...maintaince cost of BRT is more expensive than CRT. Maybe a BRT line could make sense down the lodge to the suburbs or something. but a woodward line is ideal...the basic infrastructure already exists for a AA-Detroit CRT with Woodward LRT...it wouldnt be that expensive and we already have 100mil in fed money to bankroll it (minus the money we spent on the study)
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 139
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 68.40.195.233
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

livernoisyard, i do currently take the bus, thank you for asking, but having used the light rail in toronto (a FAR better planned city) among other places, i am convinced this is what we need. it is more environmentally friendly, more cost efficient in the long run, and studies have shown that upper classes (of all races) are more likely to ride a rail system than a bus system. there is an american social stigma against busses... would YOU ride the bus?
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.215.254.162
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Enough about connecting the bus systems... I suppose it wouldn't hurt, but it's not a substitute for adding a rail line. (The TRU recommended option for the Ann Arbor-Detroit line is Commuter Rail, not Light Rail, by the way, but that was hashed out on the other thread.)

Anyway, Detroit is the only top ten metro area in the U.S. that has no metro rail transit. Heck, probably the only top twenty metro area. Let's get over the idea that adding rail transit is some kind of extreme, wacky idea.
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.79.99.249
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andylinn, Dougw,
When you are talking about light rail, do you mean light rail as taking the place of busses, or in addition to busses? I would like to be able to take some sort of mass transit to work but I don't think it would be feasible. I wonder how long it would and how many transfers I would need to get from my house on the east side suburbs to my job in Melvindale. I thought about trying it one day and writing a report about it. I wouldn't even know how to get started.
I don't think rail transit is extreme or wacky I just think it would be extemely difficult financially and politically in this area.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 721
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.42.133.85
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 1:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what's sad in taking that survey is that light rail and mass transit is hardly on their radar screen. I love how the qualify each reference to mass transit with "(bus or van)".
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 364
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.192.25.47
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I find it hard to believe that anyone "WITH CHOICES" (which is what we're going after here) would ride AA bus, stop, get off, wait, wait, get on SMART, ride to Detroit. Like seriously, until gas reaches $10/gal. if that is the option, no one "WITH CHOICES" is going to take it.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 121
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit313

Here it is

http://savethefueltax.tripod.c om/theplan.html
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 826
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.242.215.8
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The TRU plan calls for both comutter rail between Detroit and Ann Arbor coupled with a light rail feeder line along Michigan and Woodward. The light rail line would run along Michigan between Dearborn and downtown and then up Woodward between downtown and 7 Mile. It's the most cost-efficient plan out there right now and can be found here:

http://www.detroittransit.org/ Ann%20Arbor%20Detroit.pdf

The map for that plan is on page 6 of the document, but the whole thing is worth a quick read.

Also, TRU has a presentation called "A Desire Named Streetcar" that details how light rail and comutter rail have worked in Metro Detroit in the past and how they are absolutely necessary for the metro area to move forward. It also shows how other more sprawled out cities have successfully created and used light rail lines. Those lines have far exceeded projected ridership forecasts immediately and sparked plans for extending them. It's all here:

http://www.detroittransit.org/ streetcar/index.html

Tru's plan for ligth rail along Woodward and Michigan would call for the streetcars to work Woodward and Michigan while buses to feed them from other major secondary arties, such as 8 Mile, Livernois, etc. It's all on TRU's Web site:

http://www.detroittransit.org/
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Cabasse
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Username: Cabasse

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.42.169.74
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

they should really think about changing the term commuter rail to interurban rail, as the former implies a single use.

interurban rail from a2 to dearborn. also, i hope that the idea is to have two seperatae lines meeting in new center, each propogating outward. (with the woodward line continuing few extra stations south, until reaching the grand circus peoplemover or possibly even further.) i've not read tru's plan thoroughly, though...

lastly, i've printed out tru's plan in the past; i can't believe they want to be taken seriously! printing out google maps, writing on them with a pen and then re-scanning them into a pdf doesn't even begin to look professional.

(Message edited by cabasse on July 16, 2006)
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1231
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.215.254.162
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cabasse, TRU's plan does include two separate lines meeting at the new center, one going up & down Woodward, the other going west from the new center to the airport and Ann Arbor.

Fair point about the term commuter rail... To be honest, I think the commuter aspect of the AA to DET line is not really *that* important. More important is having a permanent line from downtown Detroit to the airport, and from Ann Arbor to the airport. And also having a good transportation option for (typically carless) students to go back and forth between the cities. And of course the Woodward line is crucial for Transit Oriented Development in the city.
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 13
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.252.8.249
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All this money for (typically carless) students? They are also (typically moneyless) students.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1076
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Students could use rapid transit for hauling their laundry back and forth. Their moms love their "independent" grown-up kids.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 141
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The $533 Million dollar expansion of I-75 is approved in writing on the SEMCOG website.

The Michigan Department of Transportation has publicly stated that the state fuel tax no longer works and must be replaced. A prominent official stated that the property tax for mass transit is a USER fee and is essential which is false.

Our state does have enough money from fuel taxes to keep the bus routes intact with the use of multiple tax mechanisms and more industry supports by raising user fees and taxing those along existing transportation routes.

A NO vote next August 8, 2006 only means you want to cap the tax and not defeat it. SMART will continue to serve the public and will not shut down or lose any funds as the state is required by law to pay for any loss of funding as required to obtain federal grants. Local funds do not mean more federal grants or improved transportation choices as stated by misguided transit advocates.

If you think industry support will work to make up for the cost increases and lack of state funds, then think again. --- Remember Livonia?


http://savethefueltax.tripod.c om/altern.html
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Hagglerock
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Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 266
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 12.214.243.66
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel there is some kind of public aversion to buses in America, whether it is traffic uncertainties or anxiety from the sure nature of having to ride the bus (i.e. bad experiences from grade school, ect.).
To me, trains/light rail are simpler, provide less ambiguities from traffic and are culturally ingrained in our heads to be respectable forms of transportation. This is why a bus system will never equate with other forms of getting around nor ever win my vote.
Does any one else feel this way towards buses? I swear I only had one beer with dinner.

Also, as many know something like this was done in the Minneapolis City/Metro region. To my knowledge it's been pretty successful. Any one here been on it? Is it even worth comparing to SE Michigan?

http://www.metrotransit.org/ra il/

I have family in the area who swear by it when going to/from the Airport.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 877
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I feel there is some kind of public aversion to buses in America, whether it is traffic uncertainties or anxiety from the sure nature of having to ride the bus (i.e. bad experiences from grade school, ect.).




well, i've got to say...i fell in love with the bus system in denver. the things run on time, they're clean, the drivers are friendly, the riders are courteous - and when you slip into your seat, it's like a big giant barcolounger.

that place really changed my perspective on what a bus system can be.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1108
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Piggy people can turn a train into a sty just as easily as a bus.

BTW, I do not fear buses and even ride them from time to time. I do not demand a train instead.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 18, 2006)
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 731
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.42.133.85
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought the TRU plan was very intersting, especially the idea of a quick, low cost impelmentation.

That map of the street cars makes me want to cry. The bastards had a beautiful mass transit system and they tore it down. I'd like to piss on their graves.
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Hagglerock
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Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 268
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 12.214.243.66
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I stand corrected. Something like the METROBUS BRT routes in Quebec City(posted in another thread) or what thecarl says about the system in Denver could bring back my faith in buses.

Ray,
my thoughts exactly. It seemed like many cities back then had street cars. I can remember seeing pictures of them in Ann Arbor of all places.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 144
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.61.11.146
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alternatives Analysis-

http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com/

Personally I like the CRT 1 the best because it integrates light rail down Woodward and Michigan in the plan. This would make a light rail system within Detroit. I also like that it has lines directly to the high employment areas. What do you all think?
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Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1251
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.77.161.41
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darnit, for a minute I thought the final report was out... that's supposedly due around the end of July, and will include cost/ridership estimates for each of the five alternatives. Looks like that's still not ready yet.

I agree that CRT1A looks the most promising. It's basically the same as TRU's plan, except the Woodward LRT line would only go up to the New Center instead of up to 6 Mile, which seems like a reasonable cost saving measure, given the scope.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 68
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 2:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BRT is big city transit. Folks seem to forget this in their wish to have things the way they used to be. NYC has completed a BRT study that looks very favorable.
http://www.mta.info/mta/planni ng/brt/projectupdate.htm

I would encourage all who are passionate about improving transit to look at all options, the costs, and the needs of the transit dependant, and their own willingness to support a workable system while reviewing the alternatives.

We need a system that will fit our needs now, not a system that we think might work in the future. This will be the first link in a new transit system if we can show that we want it, want to invest in it, and demand it from our elected officials. Too many poor and elderly are relying on transit for us to screw this up due to a bias.

Come to think of it, is my BRT link showing a bias?, well it might, but I support the best mode for the situation. BRT might work great on some routes, while rail would work great on others, and regular buses on a third type.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on July 30, 2006)
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Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 70
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 3:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

double post please remove.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on July 30, 2006)
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Cabasse
Member
Username: Cabasse

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.133.90.28
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Darnit, for a minute I thought the final report was out... that's supposedly due around the end of July, and will include cost/ridership estimates for each of the five alternatives. Looks like that's still not ready yet.

I agree that CRT1A looks the most promising. It's basically the same as TRU's plan, except the Woodward LRT line would only go up to the New Center instead of up to 6 Mile, which seems like a reasonable cost saving measure, given the scope.




i completely agree, doug! this proposal is by far the best. the third proposal, lrt1 seems to be the craziest - it doesn't make sense, costwise, to use relatively expensive lrt all the way out past a2. the pdf is stamped june 2006 but when did they actually release this information to the public? i remember checking the aa2detroitstudy website less than two weeks ago and not seeing it listed anywhere. this is breaking news to me.

anyway, i've been slaving over/learning adobe illustrator to create a high-res transit map for the region. the first proposal i complete will be crt1a.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.61.11.146
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BRT wouldn't be bad, but I just think that cities should start out with light rail and commuter rail and then if needed, a BRT system.
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Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 177
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why should SEMOOG do anything to get industry support to pay for transportation when they don't have to???

Your YES vote next Tuesday will ensure that our regional transit planners at SEMCOG will do even less and do more useless studies.

Your NO vote will mean that the multi-billion dollar freeway plans will go back on the shelf and SMART will remain as is.

SEMCOG is confidant that you will vote YES and support the trucking industries and Wal-Mart with your limited transportation tax dollars.

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