  Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
I had heard that Granholm was going to be "fighting back" in her bid to be re-elected after all of the DeVos TV ads that have been running. The one I saw was about her amazing fight to get 300 new jobs in Michigan. As we are losing 10's of thousands of jobs, it seemed pretty lame. I am not saying DeVos is a genius or a saviour, but Jenny better have something else to talk about besides that. Maybe her campaign slogan could be, "4 more years, and 300 more jobs!" | ||
K8cpachuck Member Username: K8cpachuck Post Number: 22 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 68.40.45.171 |
LOL!!!  (Message edited by k8cpachuck on June 30, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3946 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
They really are lame, and this is coming from one of her supporters. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 974 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Her secret plan is to get all the unemployed working as overpaid school teachers. Then, they'll pay union dues so that she'll have the campaign "donations" for her to run again. And on and on... | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 185 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
Quote: Her secret plan is to get all the unemployed working as overpaid school teachers. Then, they'll pay union dues so that she'll have the campaign "donations" for her to run again. And on and on... No she will screw the union workers AGAIN as she did following her last election when she forced open already negotiated state worker union contracts and forced pay-cuts, unpaid days off and banked leave time. The worst part is the Unions, AFSCME and the UAW, rolled over for her. Not this time for Jenny. Anybody But Granholm (ABG) | ||
Noggin Member Username: Noggin Post Number: 64 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 69.241.253.36 |
What she did not advertise was she lost the Honda plant (thousands of jobs) by neglect. She did not even bother seeing the Honda folks on her last Japan trip. 300 jobs - big deal! | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 110 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.61.161.193 |
anybody but pacy! | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 855 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.114.29 |
"Her secret plan is to get all the unemployed working as overpaid school teachers." You damn well better be joking, because these were the first folks that Judas Granholm attacked when she was trying to "balance" the budget. Everybody always seems to think the next guys job isnt worth any money, but theirs is essential. That is some violently ignorant shit dude... | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 12 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but anyone with a clue can see that Michigan is automaticaly at a disadvantage when it comes to help from Washington. George has never won this state in his two bids for the presidency, so why should his policy help us? He has refused to meet with Ford Jr., GM and Chrysler on several occasions. Why is this?? Because he has no interest in solving the problem. He is an OIL MAN after all... What good would he get out of fuel-efficiant cars? Only when we as Americans wake up and stop settling for the same MO will we truly have change. Alas, I digress, Jen Granholm has many faults, however the state of Michigans' eco outlook is not all her fault.(Anyone else realise that both Mich.'s house and senate are controlled by the party that is not hers?) | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 565 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 75.7.204.166 |
Michigan was never considered by Honda, one visit by Granholm 1 week before the location was announced would not have changed their minds considering they probably finalized the location months before they anounced it. Also these are not Granholm's ads. These are produced and paid for by the Michigan Democratic Party. Granholm is saving her money for the time when ads usually come out. She doesn't have billions of dollars to throw away quite yet. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2381 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.34 |
Yea they are kinda lame (and I too am a supporter). I kinda feel that the Michigan economy will make her a 1 term governor. Macomb County is definitely not going her way this time around. All those jobless Reagan Democrats. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 754 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 68.40.119.216 |
We certainly don't need another politician who is a Dick. This guy even has his own family scratching their heads at some his claims in his TV ads. For a guy who has had the family business given to him, I don't see where he has done all that much for Michigan. Old Jenny has had her one tied behind her back with Republicans in charge in Lansing. You can only do so much when the Legislature is constantly fighting against you. If she gets one House back, then she should have her feet held to the fire. I think she's done the best she could under the circumstances. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4480 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
YAY!! Granholm. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2160 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.59 |
"Her secret plan is to get all the unemployed working as overpaid school teachers." I'm not sure where they are hiring overpaid school teachers. Many of the districts around Detroit i.e. Dearborn and Farmington, are short on funds and are laying people off. I haven't seen her ads, but I have seen this: Maybe her campaign could buy rights to it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =M0RikZ5AeeY | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2161 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.59 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =M0RikZ5AeeY | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1717 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.220.232.214 |
Barnesfoto: Okay - that's a lot better than anything produced by either campaign. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1718 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.220.232.214 |
And what exactly do you think DeVos is going to do? I mean, in between sailing on his $7 million yacht and launching new pyramid schemes? Say whatever you want about Granholm, she's still the best candidate for Governor. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Some of the comments on this thread are downright laughable. Detroitj72 gives us this riff on George Bush, "He has refused to meet with Ford Jr., GM and Chrysler on several occasions. Why is this?? Because he has no interest in solving the problem. He is an OIL MAN after all... What good would he get out of fuel-efficiant cars? " Ummmm, isn't it the conventional wisdom that the non-Detroit automakers are the ones making the more fuel-efficient cars? Wouldn't an OIL MAN want to support the companies that supposedly make the most gas-guzzlers? Then Paulmcall offers this little bit of spin in defense of "Old Jenny", "If she gets one House back, then she should have her feet held to the fire. I think she's done the best she could under the circumstances." Ummmm, how can she get something back that she never lost? The last time the Dems controlled the House was in 1998 and the Senate in 1983. She ran for Governor knowing that the sitting Legislature was in Republican hands and that a shift was unlikely. When the electorate voted her into the Governor's office four years ago, they also decided to retain the Republican majorities in the Legislature. The voters will rightly hold her feet to the fire this November, along with the feet of their respective state Representatives and Senators. I don't think the Michigan voters will be swayed by the Dems "Blame Bush" game when they can see the relative prosperity that our surrounding states are enjoying. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 96 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
Mikeg - I totally agree with what you are saying, the Dems act as if they are running against Bush again nationwide, yet he will never run for anything again. It is also true that many other states, even in the rust belt, are out-performing Michigan. This is particularly sad given the fact we have trained workers, tons of natural resources, great universities, a reasonable cost of living, and a beautiful landscape surrounded by the awesome great lakes. We need a regulatory and tax overhaul as it relates to business and someone in charge who can truly sell these advantages to the business community INCLUDING companies like Honda and Toyota. Granholm has never seemed to grasp the major issues and seems to be mostly rhetoric and little action. Even if she has "done her best given the circumstances" it doesn't matter, results do. Her "best" is not good enough, we are in crisis. If the national economy dips into another recession within the next year or so, we will be totally screwed more than we are now. We have done nothing to capitalize on the economic expansion that the rest of the country has been enjoying for the past 2-3 years. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3949 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
The most basic question is regardless of how ineffective you think Granholm may be, or how much you may not like her leadership style, do you really trust a Far Right-wing Republican to run Michigan, and I'm talking a guy that would fit more into the mold of a Mississippi, Alabama, Georgie...Republican than the more socially moderate Republicans Michigan has elected in the past? I don't trust DeVos to do right by Michigan on social issues, even if he may be able to turn around the economy, which I highly doubt, as well. Sorry, but the Michigan GOP could have come up with a much better candidate, but DeVos with his money, and his wifes many connections, pretty much bought and bargained this nomination. You can tell the party isn't particularly excited by him. Like the poor choice of an unexciting Kerry in 2004 for the Democrats, this looks to be another "any body but (fill in the blank)" race, and hopefully it turns out like they usually do, if you know what I mean. Seriously, if I were a Republican I'd vote for L. Brooks Patterson for governor before I'd vote for a Far Right West Michigan Republican. And, from a Southeast Michigan perspective, even if you don't like Granholm, she would still do more for SE Michigan than a DeVos administration. The problem with DeVos is that there is nothing new about him. He wants everything Granholm wants, and even his "plan" looks like hers. This election isn't about some giant change in direction, as our economy has been taking upwards of 30 years, finally starting to level off as their aren't that many more manufacturing jobs to lose, and despite popular opinion, the economy HAS been diversifying at a good clip. This will come down to ideology, IMO, or at least it should, as the Michigan economy is largely out of the hands of whoever is governor because so much of our economy is tied to the global marketplace. This whole talk about the economy kind of makes me chuckle as most Michiganians (70 something percent) say that this is their most important issue, but I would bet that not even 20% of them have any idea why our economy is the way it is, or the first thing about economics. (Message edited by lmichigan on July 02, 2006) | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 191 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
7milekid Quote: "anybody but pacy"! Another intelligent response, "7milekid" must really be a kid. What's the age to attain to be allowed to post on this site? Back to our gal governor, in the last 3 years there have been no positive job gains. Explaining for 7milekid, that means there has not been a job added that has taken the state to a level than it was at when Jenny took over. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2238 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
So, with the stellar "choices" that we have this November, who is for "None of the Above" for Michigan Governor in '06? NOTA will make one hell of a write-in candidate. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 103 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
"NOTA" is the abdication of one's civic responsibilities. If you don't like the quality of the candidates that are put up by the party whose platform is closest to your way of thinking, then do something about it. Get involved at that party's local precinct or Congressional district level. Ask the tough questions of the local and state leaders and wanna-be nominees. Become an opinion leader among those who most directly influence the nomination process. Even if your favorite doesn't get the nomination, who knows, maybe you could learn enough about the nominee in the process to become an effective advocate for them. Setting back and decrying the sorry state of leadership choices doesn't change a thing. Sorta like Gannett's Detroit News editorial staff with their non-endorsement in the 2004 Presidential contest - some kind of influence they were! | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2244 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Sorry, but how is indicating that there are no acceptable choices somehow an abdication of our responsibilities as Americans? If anything, indicating that there are no acceptable choices simply reinforces it. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
As a responsible US citizen, one has both a right and a duty to vote in elections. Abdicate means "to give up a right" and by writing-in "NOTA", that person is giving up their right to vote and decide who will fill that elected position. "NOTA" is an emotional response to a problem that can only be solved through activism. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 97 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
I would LOVE to vote for Brooks Patterson for Governor, but he isn't running! Brooks is pretty darn conservative, so I guess I don't see how he would be more "moderate" then DeVos. I don't really understand this irrational fear of religious conservatives and this myth that because a politician is not from this area he somehow "hates" Southeastern Michigan. First of all, the Governor is responsible to the voters of the entire state, not just Detroit. If other areas within the state can flourish, that is a GOOD THING. Secondly, the Governor will have little impact on social issues. It isn't as if he is going to ban abortion and institute a state religion! The notion that the economy of the state is totally dependent on global economic issues is preposterous. If that were true, then all states would be affected equally by global economic trends and that is certainly not the case. We have lost thousands of jobs to other states because of our poor business climate. What average folks do know about economics is the economics of their own household. When they see their friends leaving the state to get employment elsewhere and one story after another in the news about layoffs in Michigan it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something is wrong here. To blame the global economy for all of our problems is defeatist and only gives Granholm a pass on her dismal performance. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2167 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.165 |
Brooks is pretty reasonable for a conservative. He's always played the city suburbs divide just like our pols south of 8 mile have....But his "endorsement" of Sharon McFail as the "suburban choice" in the early 90's made me somewhat of a fan of his. He's a terrible joke-teller though. Granholm is kinda like some kooky aunt that you go visit once a year in Northville. You can just imagine the goose with the costume on her porch and all the floral wallpaper in her home... I did see her give a good speech once. But a guy who hawked pyramid scams for his dad? That's almost as repugnant as a guy who was born into the oil biz and failed at it (as well as other business ventures) being run as a candidate for president. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2755 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.226.45.131 |
Ummmm Barnes.... That did happen. But I can gladly say that he has been just as successfulk as a President has he had in allk his other FAILING ventures! WHAT A KKKOUNTRY! | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 69 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Jenny or Dick, who cares, It's Dangerously Incompetent Stabenow that has to go. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 230 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.248.14.37 |
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. All I need to know is that DeVos is a rich Republican. He won't be getting my DeVote. Weird moment for Granholm: She was giving a State of the State address, and she was sounding pretty decent, and all of a sudden, she launched into this hysteria-laden tangent against violent video games. Whhaaa?... | ||
Amy_p Member Username: Amy_p Post Number: 657 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.209.147.253 |
DeVos completely lost consideration with me with this ad:  "After all...leading the world is what Michigan was meant to do." "Meant?" Creepy. I'll stick with Granholm and feet on the ground. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3951 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
What's wrong with a rich Republican? As much as I don't like DeVos his wealth has little to do with it, though, how he's 'earned' it is a turn-off. IMO, Dick is probably the worst candidate the Michigan GOP could have chosen. I honestly feel sorry for any right-leaner that will have to vote for him to try and oust Granholm. While the Dems could do better than Granholm, the Michigan GOP could do MUCH better than DeVos for governor, really. BTW, when it comes around to debate time for the two, Granholm will wipe the floor with DeVos, that is her strong point. He better prepare himself, well. Still, debates don't necessarily win elections. Just look at how John Kerry (and even Al Gore) made Bush look like a little kid with a limited vocabulary in 2000-2004. American's love simplicity at the moment, it seems...to a fault. Intellectuals are punished. lol | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1001 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Still, DeVos will win because Granholm is despised by too many Reagan Democrats. That demographic is not working in her favor. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 98 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
The rant about video games by Granholm was a lame attempt to pander to those concerned about traditional family values. She picked a target that she figured was safe and sure not to offend anyone. This encapsulates her mentality quite well, try to pander to all but never take a stand that might possibly offend anyone that might vote for her. At least DeVos is willing to take a position on some of these issues, knowing some will write him off as many on this board already have. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 236 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.248.14.37 |
The video game rant did sound a bit forced, as though she was saying something she felt like she had to say, and trying not to sound like an idiot while saying it... It didn't work. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 99 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
How is it creepy that DeVos is trying to be positive and confident about Michigan leading a second industrial revolution? He is merely saying that Michigan was the birthplace of the first enormous economic expansion in this country and feels that we can and should lead again, mainly because we have done it before. Maybe a little bold and overly optimistic, but certainly not creepy. I find it amazing that those on the left always attack people on a personal level and don't debate the content of the issues. Not one person supporting Granholm here has made a good case for her re-election on this thread or any other. It is all about attacking DeVos for being a "Rich Republican," his religious beliefs, the fact he is from "Western Michigan," and his involvement with Amway. Which most here say is a scam but at the same time say he had nothing to do with building! So I guess if he was too dumb to build the Amway empire he shouldn't be blamed for the business model. Then the left blames the global economy, the Republican-led state house, and of course George Bush for the failure of Granholm's first term. Again, no mention of what she has really done to improve things in Michigan. The reason for all of this of course is there is nothing to point to. What ever happened to "Cool Cities?" Why isn't her party and she touting the huge success of that initiative? Maybe she should get out the sunglasses again and do an ad about that. She won't of course because it did nothing to improve the overall economic picture, it was merely an attempt to pander to urban minorities, which were already drinking her kool-aid anyway. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Once the city of Warren was awarded the "Cool City Neighborhood in Progress" designation, it was clear to all that this was one program which had finally "jumped the shark"! | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 190 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.238 |
Livernois, The Reagan Democrat phenomenon can best be described as follows: they vote Republican when the economy is doing well because they think they will be the next rich family, and they vote Democratic when the economy is doing bad because they are afraid they will be the next poor family. That being said, I don't think they will be as supportive of Tricky Dick as you like to think. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3954 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Exactly, in a state that leans Democrat, turnout is EVERYTHING for the Michigan GOP, and I don't want to call this race before it's really even started, but DeVos has quite the trouble, ahead, in turning the GOP out in Southeast Michigan. As bad as Granholm may be, again, the Michigan GOP, at least in Southeast Michigan, doesn't seem to be too enthusiastic about this race or this candidate, and SE Michigan Republicans decide every Michigan election. They are the swing voters. DeVos has to find and issue (besides the economy) in SE Michigan to turn out his voters, there, to win this election. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 100 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
Ron - The only problem with your analysis is that they voted Democrat in the last election and things got worse. They are already the next poor family. Reagan Democrats are middle class working folks who no longer felt their interests were being served by the Democratic Party. Based on the last 4 years, I think many Macomb County folks may come to this conclusion again. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 101 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
Lmichigan - Are you really saying that SE Michigan Republicans don't care about the economy? That is THE issue of the campaign for EVERYONE! As a member of that group, or more accurately, a SE Michigan CONSERVATIVE, I am damn worried about the economy and so is everyone I know.... (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 02, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3955 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
We'll just have to wait and see. Even with the economy and ALL of DeVos commercials vs. one of Granholms, the two are still in a statistical dead-heat. If DeVos was really capitalizing off the bad economy, Granholm should have taken a large back-seat in the polls weeks/months ago. DeVos is either going to have to keep hammering at the economy, finding some nuances to pick at about the economy, or find another polarizing issue where he's going to turnout SE Michigan Republicans. I would have thought DeVos would have made much more ground here in the months he's been running commercials. I think DeVos is slightly protected in that many undecideds don't even realize he's a Republican. When Granholm gets to the point of "revealing" who DeVos is, he better have a strong defense. Again, DeVos is a Republican that would feel right at home in the South. I'm not sure that far-right conservatism flies here in a much more moderate Michigan, where even the majority of the conservatives are moderates on social issues. DeVos is anything but moderate. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1003 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Maybe Ron should visit Macomb County and take note of vacant, erstwhile Tier plants. Then, he might realize how many of those ex-workers still living there will vote. Hey, Ron! Remember the failed Carter-administration years that brought the term "Reagan Democrats" into existence? Might that resemble (but to a lesser extent) what's happening in Michigan--but not elsewhere? A one-state recession, which started before Granholm's time but got much worse since. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 02, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 191 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.231 |
Gentleman, That is even more reason for them to vote Democratic, as the GOP certainly does not believe in those pesky little social programs that assist poor families. To exemplify this point, see #1 on this list. https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5843/75638.html?11516910 38 | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1004 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Ron, most of the Reagan Democrats I know didn't vote for Granholm the first time. Only difference now from four years ago is that their numbers have increased. Just anecdotal on my part, but poll your own friends and acquaintances yourself instead of your wishful (hopeful) thinking... | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2245 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
I'm still failing to see how any amount of activism will change the direction of the republicratic party, when their raison d'être is to prostitute themselves for votes, over any pre-existing principles they might have had or stood for at one time. Like it or not, voting for NOTA is still a choice, albeit one that the republicrats would rather have you not make. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 102 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
Ron - These so-called social programs that supposedly help poor families have been in effect since Johnson started the "Great Society" and have not solved anything. They have however, helped to establish a mentality of dependence and entitlement amongst the poor. Most of these programs now reward the very behavior that causes these social problems. Having children you cannot or will not care for, dropping out of school, getting involved with drugs and street crime are many of the reasons we have poverty in the inner cities. Until we can get beyond just handing money to people who are making these poor choices and somehow motivate them to take another path, these programs will continue to fail and only expand the problem. There is a difference between "helping" and "enabling." The conservative message of personal responsibility and self-reliance is more in keeping with the American system. That is not to say that you cut off all aid to the poor, but stressing education, work, and discouraging irresponsible behavior that leads to the 70% illegitimacy rate amongst the poor needs to be an integral part of the solution. Unfortunately in the current political discourse anyone that the Left has assigned “victim” status to, which includes the poor and minorities, cannot be criticized or told the truth about the consequences of their actions until it is too late. Teaching the youth to be more sexually responsible could have an enormous impact on poverty in this country as underage kids having children themselves has been cited as one of the leading causes of it. This is something the left will never do as they still seem to still believe in the “free love” crap and “if it feels good, do it” mentality of the 1960’s. Political correctness and the willingness to accept all kinds of bad behavior has led us down the path to disaster. I think we need leaders in the community that stress strong moral values. After all, without a strong moral structure, there can be no liberty. If we cannot trust the people to do the right thing, then the state must impose its will on the people to ensure that they do. This will lead to more control and intrusion on our lives from government, something that none of us want. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 02, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 193 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.230 |
Perfectgentleman Quote: "Until we can get beyond just handing money to people who are making these poor choices and somehow motivate them to take another path..." Is this part of the compassionate conservatism that we heard so much about? Your point seems to be that all poor people are poor because of the choices they make. Tell that to the Reagan Democrats whose votes you are praying DeVos gets. I take offense to that assertion, if that is the point you are trying to make. While I was not dirt poor growing up, my mother did work three jobs to make ends meet and to send my sister and I to the best schools possible. We ended up in that situation due, in large part, to the fact that my father deserted us when I was two, and left us with nothing. When I was in high school, we struggled financially because my grandmother (who helped raise me) became an invalid after a stroke/heart attack, and could not walk, so we had enormous medical bills/costs to deal with. So to say that it was a result of a poor "decision" illustrates how little you truly understand the issue of poverty. It also illustrates why lower income people consistently vote Democratic, because Republicans just don't get it, or just don't give a damn. One of the areas that I practice in is consumer bankruptcy, and the vast majority of my clients end up in the situations they are in because they (1) suffered an unforeseeable catastrophic illness, (2) were recently divorced and left with marital debt or no means of income, or (3) were recently laid off. According to your theory, they could have avoided all three situations by making better "choices." But of course, they can always pull themselves up by their bootstraps, right? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1005 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Ron's running in one of the two or three legislative districts that are most thoroughly "invested" in social programs, which only a few years ago was simply called WELFARE. Nothing has really changed but its euphemistic terminology. But, Ron has a snowball's chance in Hades getting elected in his district if he's opposed to welfare. Therefore, he has to keep his own feet to the fire or else he's ancient history. Hence, I wouldn't expect him to act or talk otherwise. Cheerleading for Granholm is an integral part of his policy--one of begging for taxpayers' money. That's another reason for his recent support for KK, a fellow beggar... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3956 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Could you quit patronizing Ron, already? Geeze. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 195 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.230 |
That's ok Lmich, it's just practice for when I start kicking GOP tail in Lansing. Let's see, both Livernois and the Gentleman are fans of DeVos, a religious conservative, who, presumably, is a follower of Jesus, who said: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21. "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." Luke 6:20 "But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you." 11:41 I guess the GOP picks and chooses those parts of God's Word that they wish to believe. Hypocrisy is not very becoming on you fellas. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3958 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Ron, DeVos, like any wealthy politician (blue, red, democrat, republican, or otherwise), has only one religion, and that religion's name is wealth. The Gospel of Wealth makes it nearly impossible not to be hypocritical to the teachings of Jesus. Though, I'd rather not get into the character assassination. My problems with DeVos are beyond his personal religion, and more with his policies including his failed move to expediate the exodus of public schools, him quitting the his Michigan State Board of Education seat 2 years into his 8 year term, him quitting the Grand Valley State Board of Control after a short time that Engler appointed him to...and so many more. He seems to only be interested in education/politics for a time, but seems to quickly quit positions. I'm more worried about his nonchalant attitude and overall flakiness than anything else. Governor of Michigan is a 24-hour, 4-year obligation, and I don't trust him with the position it given his past. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 103 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.121 |
Ron - I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I do not come from a rich family. My mother lived through the Great Depression, which really illustrated well the type of "poor people" you are talking about. They were like everyone else, they just lacked opportunity and basic services. Of course there were few government programs for them but people recovered from that time and later flourished. I was laid off from my job during the Carter recession, and ended up on unemployment the only time in my life. As I was getting my last check, the guy at the counter said "good luck, the Welfare Office is across the street." The idea of going on welfare was totally abhorrent to me so I ended up getting a job selling shoes at Northland for $120 per week, hardly enough to survive. I had to pay an employment agency $600 to get the job which I paid back out of my first several checks. I had no college degree then and still don't. I have lived in Michigan all of my life and have managed to stay employed, mainly by updating my skills at my own expense and time. I know many of the “working poor” you speak of, and I have been in this group myself. The key is that most of these folks go through some hard times on a transient basis and eventually recover due to their determination and work ethic. The people I was referring to are perpetually on the government dole through many generations and show little or no signs of becoming self-sufficient. Perhaps they did not have role models growing up who instilled the values of self-reliance and being able to work through hard times. I am only saying we need to be honest with people as to how they arrived at the situation they are in and instill the values in them that will allow them to succeed. I have also had medical problems that have prevented me from working and generated a large debt. I am divorced as well and understand the financial pressure that can bring. I have been laid off several times as well. At no point did I file for bankruptcy or receive government assistance because I quite simply did not see it as an option for me, given my values. I am not judging anyone who has had to resort to these remedies, but we all know people who have ended up with many of these problems due to their own bad choices. Some people choose not to carry medical insurance even if they can afford it, putting themselves at risk. Others work in industries they know full well are experiencing difficulty and yet do nothing to broaden their skills or experience in order to get work if the layoff notice does come. Divorce can be tough, but some folks get married and have kids even though they barely get along with their partner and many do not take the commitment of marriage seriously. I tried it for 18 years and failed, but I still made sure I supported my kids and I see them 5-6 days per week doing my best to keep them on the proper path in life. I am not saying I am better than anyone else, I am just an average guy. Of course there are extenuating circumstances, disability, victims of abuse; these are people truly in need of all of our help. But able bodied people without these impediments should be made accountable for their own lives. Of course even they may need temporary assistance, but it should be given with the notion of getting them back on their feet, and not dependent on government in mind. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 03, 2006) (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 03, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 196 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.230 |
Livernois, I don't know where you live, but those who enjoy a life with more material possessions benefit more from the government than those without, so there should be absolutely NO complaining about taxes from those who are well off. For instance, many upper-class people live further out from the core-city, so we need to pay for 1) roads to get there, 2) sewers and water pipes to let them wash their behinds, 3) electrical lines to light their houses, 4) police to protect them from the "core-city residents," etc. Despite all these services, they don't want to pay for taxes. So who do they think is going to subsidize their way of life? Those who can least afford to pay for it. And by the way, if you get something and don't pay for it (like the roads and such from above) wouldn't you consider that a type of "welfare?" | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1007 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
If you average the disparate population elements of Detroit, you have at best (according to DPS), a graduation rate of 55% or so, or, probably more realistically, something approaching 20%. Neither extreme is good, yet apparently it doesn't seem to bother you or those like you or else you would speak out against it as Dr. Cosby. And any perceived lack of money isn't at all the culprit. But, liberals use teachers as their sacred-cow clergy and will not say or do anything to upset that. Jenny's raising Michigan's so-so graduation requirements won't matter much either because DPS and other bottom-feeding districts will see to it (by hook or crook) that sufficient numbers pass. The abysmally poor education of the voting pool where you reside has a lot to do with their poverty cycle. But poverty need not cause the poor education, but instead, it's the other way around. Their poverty is caused by their dropping out of school. Intellectually dropping out by the fourth or fifth grade, when they simply attend school. And by age 15 or so, when they just stop going to school entirely in great numbers. It's not the fault of business when they refuse to hire those who quite literally are illiterate, Ron. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 03, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 197 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.226 |
Livernois, It is ironic that you would make a generalization about me like the one above ("it doesn't seem to bother you ... or else you would speak out"). Take a look at this post from my campaign blog from early afternoon yesterday, specficially, paragraphs 4-7. http://liscombe4staterep.blogs pot.com/2006/07/time-for-visio n.html | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 57 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Liv, I agree that Jenny's raising the grad requirements will hurt our kids. MANY of my students attend Vocational Training. Not out of a need (because they aren't smart enough to go to college) but because it's something they are interested in and want to do with their lives. Raising the rquirements will, most likely, force the cutbacks of kids taking such VoTech training classes. Electives are out the window.....we have very few in DPS. I'll be the first to admit that college isn't for everyone....and it won't solve social ills. We NEED people for those "labor" type jobs...and they pay pretty nicely. Ever hire a plumber? No college, yet he makes more an hour than I do.....(s)he had votech type training. I admit, DPS grad rates SUCK at best....our MEAP scores are horrible and attendance in school is dismal at best (which is the main reason kids fail....it's not the lack of smarts, it's the lack of attendance). When parents are held accountable for their children and getting them to school (yes, I know....it's hard to get kids to do what is right....and they walk right out the back door) then and only then will grad rates rise. Raising the requirements will hurt some kids (especially those with special needs who may struggle through basic math, let alone Calculus). I guess it boils down to this....the village needs to stand together to raise our kids. Not just in Detroit, but everywhere. Kids are kids....urban or suburban. I am a teacher, I work hard to help kids. I can't do it alone....I need support from cummunity, government, parents...everyone. AND...BTW, I am not overpaid....I am in debt for student loans, took a pay cut, pay for my insurance, and regularly buy school supplies out of pocket for students.....something needs to be done. If we want to bring Michigan out of the funk it's in economically, let's not place blame, let's solve the problem. We need to let our kids know there is more out there than welfare.....my issue is the kids wearing 200.00 shoes but having no paper or writing utensils. Priorities need to be taught. Ok, I am on a soapbox here. My point is, priorities need to start in the home....whether that is Bloomfield Hills or Detroit. Like I said, kids are kids and they live by what they see. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 198 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.93.105 |
Teacher, I agree with you that parents need to be held responsible. That is the ONLY solution. I believe DPD was starting to enforce a law already on the books to that effect (there was a press conference with the Chief in the last few months). Have you had any experience with its enforcement? However, I disagree with you that raising the standards will harm the kids. I used to work with kids in a drug prevention program in DPS (Drug Free Youth in Detroit), and the kids I worked with would perform better when we expected more of them. It is the self-fulfilling prophecy phenomenon. Expect them to fail, and they will. Not to mention, that we must be able to compete globally, and that can only be done if our MINIMUM standards are on par with other countries. It is bad enough that we are only sending our kids to school 8 months/year compared to Japan (where I think it is 10-11 months/year). When they are in school, we need to expect more of them. Undoubtedly, some students will be harmed by the higher standards, but we have to do what is collectively in our best interests, while providing other options for those who do wish to go into the skilled trades. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1008 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Once upon a morning steamy, Ron uttered: "I believe DPD was starting to enforce a law already on the books to that effect (there was a press conference with the Chief in the last few months). Have you had any experience with its enforcement?" DPD uses triage (or else simply ignores) responding to many offenses, crimes, or criminal complaints. So just why would they respond positively to school truancy reports from DPS? Are you from this part of the planet, Ron? (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 03, 2006) | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 58 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Ron: Maybe you misunderstood. I am ALL FOR raising standards! It's just I don't want to see vocational programs and electives suffer as a result. That is the only downfall. We need plumbers and mechanics, too. DPD has been stationed in our building. BUT...they have been removed. When they broght back the laid off cops to work in schools, we saw them for a week and then nothing. We have NO MORE truant officers (at least I never have seen any or heard of any). There is no systemic method to report student absences, parents have no way of knowing their kids aren't in school unless each individual teacher calls them (I have over 200 kids....I can't possibly phone each parent of each kid everytime they are absent). Just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings. I have VERY high standards for my students and expect them to raise themselves to my standards, I won't lower my standards at all. I expect excellence and usually my students will rise to them. Absences are what hinders those who don't. I jsut don't want to see certain programs cut. It has been proven that music programs increase math scores on standardized tests....kids need an outlet...electives are just that. Unless we extend the school day, certain programs will have to go for the sake of raising requirements. It's a catch-22. My students are the best kids....and I don't want to see anyone's dreams crushed. I let them explore ALL options for life after high school, and many of my students choose to go the vocational route because it's what thy enjoy....I just don't want that taken away from them. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 59 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I've also done extensive research into school programs in other countries. Japan's seems to work, however, those kids are tracked. They must take a test to get into high school. Same in Germany and most of Europe. We cry equal education, yet what you are proposing won't allow for that. Certain kids will be destined to go to a certain track, regardless of what makes them HAPPY in life. The suicide rate for Japanese students is also staggering. Their teachers and staff do go the bar each night to discuss the students. Might not be a bad route if you ask me.....We do have a long way to go and there can't possibly be one solution to it all. Collectively, I agree, we must do what is best. But, who decides what is best? Each kid is different, their learning styles different. We also need to get rid of teachers who don't want to update their teaching to compete with the 21st century. Amazingly there are still teachers who can't turn on a computer. How are the students of that teacher possibly going to compete with students in a technology driven market? I say stock the DPS School Board with TEACHERS! Tons would get done to the benefit of the kids....and man can we stretch a buck. If we have to lengthen the school day or year, so be it....but don't take away the electives or votech programs. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 200 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.93.100 |
Agreed. |
