Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Separate but Equal coming to Michigan « Previous Next »
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Themax
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Username: Themax

Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.246.123.118
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13 349156/

"The House Education Committee passed a bill Wednesday that's similar but would limit single-sex schools to the Detroit school district."

I wonder if this is still in the bill being considered. This is obviously a sop to desperate people in Detroit who think separating the girls from the boys thereby jeopardizing the education of their daughters will stop discipline problems.

(Message edited by themax on June 29, 2006)
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Funkycarrie
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Username: Funkycarrie

Post Number: 309
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 69.209.138.56
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't even believe that people think that this is a good idea.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a teacher in Detroit and I think it's a horrible idea! I like having a good mix of gender in my class, makes for much more interesting conversations and discussions as well as gives viewpoints from different angles. I sure hope we don't do the same sex school thing. I think school should also be a place where young people can socialize and learn how to deal with people of the opposite sex. Besides, we have FAR more girl fights than boy fights. Having that many females in one spot just can't be good....shoot, I can't even imagine.........
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Funkycarrie
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Username: Funkycarrie

Post Number: 310
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 69.209.138.56
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The bill passed the Senate 33-5

I just can't get over that.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 958
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This program probably now has greater merit because it riles teachers.

Is the current situation having females comprising 91% of the teachers in K-6 education such a good idea anyway? Ain't that way in Europe...
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 560
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's a great idea. Then, HyKeem in the back 2nd row can get his mind off of Shaniqua in the front 3rd row. I say put uniforms on them, too. Get all that gang crap, competition out of the schools. I think it would help all the kids to get out of the "me" mentality and into the "we" frame of mind. After all, "I can't do it but we can!" We need to get them thinking in terms of "community" not what I can get for myself.

we can do it

Livedog2
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 953
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.90
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Then, HyKeem in the back 2nd row can get his mind off of Shaniqua in the front 3rd row. I say put uniforms on them, too. Get all that gang crap, competition out of the schools.




Do you ever think before you type?
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 562
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why do you ask?

Livedog2
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1365
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Apparently not.
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Mthouston
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Username: Mthouston

Post Number: 190
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 63.77.247.130
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I doubt it would pass Constitution muster. Anyone remember Brown v. Board of Education?
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1982
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Detroit should try anything to improve the schools. Lets be honest it cannot get much worse.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1418
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.220.230.150
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not really sure how giving parents a choice to send their kids to a such a certain school is a bad idea or even bad for the girls how NOW makes it out to be.
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Mbr
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Username: Mbr

Post Number: 71
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 152.160.42.163
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's wrong with giving parents the option? It's one thing if you make people attend single-sex schools, it's quite another if it is one of many learning options. I see it as a necessary way to compete with private schools who are already providing the same service.
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Ron
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Username: Ron

Post Number: 183
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.79.230
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The World is coming to an end......not because of same sex education, but because I think Livernoisyard and I actually agree on something.

I attended the University of Detroit High School and Academy (7-12 grades), and learned a hell of a lot, due, in part, to the absence of female distractions in the classroom.

I think it is a great idea. With respect to the "separate but equal" argument, I don't think the program would be violative of the Constitution due to the fact that the program will allow a few same sex schools, while keeping the majority co-ed. It will therefore be OPTIONAL if parents want to put their children in a same sex school. Brown's holding, I think, would have been far different if sending children to single-race schools would have been optional in 1954, rather than mandatory.

By giving parents the option to send their children there, there is far less danger, if any, of schools being unequal due to the power of choice.

I say give it a try. What is there to lose?
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 563
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susanarosa, you made a disparaging remark about me when you said

quote:

Do you ever think before you type?


And, I asked you a simple, civil question

quote:

Why do you ask?


I have yet to receive a civil answer to my civil comment and civil question!

Livedog2
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Funkycarrie
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Username: Funkycarrie

Post Number: 311
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 69.209.138.56
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ron, I attended coed schools my entire life and got a great education, learned a lot, with the distractions.
:-)
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 954
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.90
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dude, it's not even been a half hour, chill out.

I asked that question because I believe that your categorization of Detroit children named Hykeem and Shaniqua mixed with your concerns about dress codes and gangs and represent thinly/badly veiled racism.
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Morena
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Username: Morena

Post Number: 430
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 216.45.2.138
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit parents and students deserve educational choices!

Give Detroit public, charters, private, vouchers, same-sex, vocational ed., night/evening school, etc., options and watch the city positively transform itself!
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 289
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know what these people are thinking! I had enough problems finding the motivation to head to class at 6:30 every morning. "Distractions" are probably the best retention tool there is for convincing a 16 year old kid to stay in school. I've been out of high school for almost 10 years and they're still my favorite subject. =)

(Message edited by Johnnny5 on June 29, 2006)
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Ron
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Username: Ron

Post Number: 184
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.79.233
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey there FunkyC,

I do not dispute that it is possible to obtain a quality education in a co-ed school. I attended a co-ed school from k-6. But I do think that people learn differently, and some people struggle with certain "distractions" worse than others.

The whole issue for me is, if there is someone out there who could learn better in a single-sex environment, and it was not mandatory, then why not make that option available to them?
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1669
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 75.9.244.48
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many of you need to stop assuming that same-sex schools will be a detriment to girls. According to the latest research, girls are outperforming boys in co-ed schools.

If the parents of Johnnie feel that he is too distracted by girls and is not performing well in school, then maybe it's time to offer a same-sex public school, all-boy in this case, so that Johnnie wouldn't be distracted by girls. Also, this keeps Johnnie's parents from having to send him to a private all-boy school where they would have to pay a lot of tuition. It would give them another option for public education.

BTW, girls tend to fight over boys more than anything else. Take the boys out of the equation and you would have fewer fights.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3937
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard about this, and this is a horrible idea, IMO. I don't see how this would stop anyone from making a case, now, that separating children by race, or religion, or... in schools would be a good idea.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4469
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 198.111.165.50
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SEGREGATION is comming back. First to promote Public Schools for homosexuals and the next to promote deintergration of all ethnic people. It's part of WHITE PRIVILEGE in America.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 959
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How would teachers like having a 50/50% split along the sexes involving teachers instead of the 91% female/9% male ratio? I doubt that many females would approve of having their numbers thinned...

Some thought should be directed to the over-feminization of young boys by the vastly predominantly female teaching staffs. For most boys, the only males they encounter are probably the principals and gym teachers, who are often female also.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 833
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmmm. in the past, "separate but equal" was code for de facto segregation, and discrimination. in this case, one mustn't necessarily attend the "school boys go to" or the "school girls go to." separate but equal demanded fountains for white people, and fountains for black people - that way, black people wouldn't besmirch white fountains, and people could brag about things being "fair." that situation cannot be applied to the scenario involving separate boys' and girls' schools.

there's been a lot of research emerging lately showing that boys and girls learn in different ways, and tailoring an environment to their inherent learning mechanisms shows some advantages. i've heard a number of radio broadcasts on this topic in recent months. with the issues facing detroit schools, they have great pressure to improve, and so they are always exploring new approaches toward learning.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3940
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, we'll see how this works out. Maybe, the advantages really turn out to outweigh the negative consequences. Who knows? Has this been tried anywhere else?

BTW, Carl, there is an issue in Nebraska of a particular community (I think it may be somewhere in or around Omaha) i{advocating} voluntary segregation. You make a decent point that these two situations may not be as comparable as some think, but I'm not so sure if they are completely incomparable, as there have been "studies" by different groups that say different races/ethnicities are wired different. It is a slippery slope, and one I'd hate to see revisited, especially since we have centuries of lessons to learn from. That's the definition of insanity.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1636
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 75.10.21.159
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And Livedog2 rips Susanarosa a new one as well as opens her mind a little.

"Tab", I was rolling when I read that name. That has to be one name that I've only heard white folks using. I'm going to use that from now on!
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 567
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No one wants to look seriously at what you say Lmichigan:

quote:

as there have been "studies" by different groups that say different races/ethnicities are wired different.


because it would jerk the underpinnings out from under everything we believe and stand for yet the question keeps coming up and there is much anecdotal proof that there are differences in the way the races are hard wired. As soon as you even bring up the topic you are written off as a racist. There is just too much political capital tied up in the question to ever get a definitive answer to the question. It's like Jesus -- there is so much myth, spirituality and religion surrounding him that it’s near impossible to do any academic research on Jesus the man.

Livedog2
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3941
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm completely confused by how you're taking my quote, Livdog. Let me lay my view out there, and that is the view that I've come up with on my own (not from some brainwashing) that humanity is made better and stronger (ultimately) when people have a better ability and greater chance to interact with those different than themselves be it boy-to-girl, black-to-white, or christian-to-muslim interaction. It's not some high, liberal idea or rhetoric, to me, it's just plain common sense. Despite severly violent interactions, at times, with eachother since the beginning of history, I truly believe that humanity has been made better and more accountable to itself through our interactions with one another. Whether it be international isolationist, or those in specific countries seeking to divide the populace along these lines, it's all poison to the human race, to me. It's a social regression that we don't need to retread.

I'm just not sure if dividing us in our schools ultimately leads to a better working society. In fact, as I've just layed out, I'm really leaning against this experiment, but I just don't know enough about it to really to say for sure whether this will be, ultimately, good or bad.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 837
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I would like to make amends to Lowell the creator of DetroitYes and all the members of the DetroitYes Forums. I am making amends for the fact that I allowed myself to be sucked into the game of hatred, disrespect, racism and disparaging remarks. I am human with human frailties but when I’m wrong I know it and I know what to do to make it right.

The reasons I am doing this are fourfold the first is a sign of respect for Lowell that started this great website, next I am doing it for the members that don’t need to hear my negativity, number three I love Detroit history and that’s what I want to talk about and lastly for myself because I don’t need to be in that space and create that kind of energy for my soul.

The DetroitYes website is not my own playground to do as I please without consideration of others – I recognize and accept that fact. Everybody has and will have their opinions about anything and everything but I don’t need to react to it. That’s all I have to say about this topic.

Livedog2


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Jenniferl
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Username: Jenniferl

Post Number: 287
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 4.229.60.94
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If all of the Detroit public schools were to become single-sex, I would be concerned. But I don't see anything wrong with a handful of magnet schools offering the single-sex option. One of the main problems in education is that far too often one size is supposed to fit all. It simply doesn't work that way. Human beings are complicated creatures who don't always need the same things at the same time. One kid might flourish in a co-ed environment. Another kid might do better in a single-sex classroom. Or maybe a combo approach may work for some-- they're in a single-sex environment for part of their school day, but spend some time in co-ed classrooms as well.

One of the earlier posters mentioned that girl fights are worse than boy fights. I agree. But what do girls usually fight over? Boys! Perhaps some (not all) of these girls wouldn't fight so much if there were no boys around?

In the not-so-distant past, Detroit parents could choose single-sex Catholic high schools for their kids. But within the city, only one Catholic high school remains, and many inner ring suburban schools have closed their doors as well. Of course, there's always Cranbrook. But hardly anyone who lives in the city of Detroit-- black, white, Hispanic, or Asian-- can afford to send their kid there.

I remember the Malcolm X Academy controversy from the early 1990s. Much of it was about race, but there was also concern about the girls getting shortchanged. IIRC, the school board had proposed three all-boys schools but no special schools for girls. I would certainly not agree with that, if it were to happen again. If the boys get a special school/program, there should be something comparable for girls. And in all cases, single-sex education should be voluntary.

As for NOW, I consider myself a feminist but I never felt that that organization spoke for me or represented me. Sometimes I agree with them, but a lot of times I think they're full of bulltiot. And this happens to be one of those times. Detroit's schools are in crisis-- and this means that children's entire futures are at stake. If a certain type of program works, bring it on!
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3942
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carl, huh?

(Message edited by lmichigan on June 29, 2006)
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 569
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

quote:

I would like to make amends to Lowell the creator of DetroitYes and all the members of the DetroitYes Forums. I am making amends for the fact that I allowed myself to be sucked into the game of hatred, disrespect, racism and disparaging remarks. I am human with human frailties but when I’m wrong I know it and I know what to do to make it right.

The reasons I am doing this are fourfold the first is a sign of respect for Lowell that started this great website, next I am doing it for the members that don’t need to hear my negativity, number three I love Detroit history and that’s what I want to talk about and lastly for myself because I don’t need to be in that space and create that kind of energy for my soul.

The DetroitYes website is not my own playground to do as I please without consideration of others – I recognize and accept that fact. Everybody has and will have their opinions about anything and everything but I don’t need to react to it. That’s all I have to say about this topic.

Livedog2




Livedog2
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Kova
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Username: Kova

Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.255.246.21
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also went to U of D.

My 2 cents are this:

Same sex K - 8 = bad

Same sex 9- 12 good as long as voluntary
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 840
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks, livedog2! you are a spirited individual, i'll say that!
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3943
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kova,

That sounds reasonable, and a good argument someone may be able to make. This is, after all, mainly an issue of freedom and choice in education. The main sticking point is whether this does more harm than good. I only have my personal anecdote of two cousins of mine that went to same-sex Catholic schools. I'd like to see all of the data.
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 573
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I made amends; I didn't say I was going to become a monk! It's been my experience that the barbarians always think that good naturedness and a pleasant disposition are a weakness to be exploited. I like a good fight when I see lots of hypocrisy, bullying and braggadocio which I see a lot of on this site at times. That swagger shit doesn't impress me a bit. I've seen plenty of those kinds of idiots on a slab which is where they belong.

I was a minority in all of the inner-city Detroit elementary, junior and senior high schools I attended. There were lots of thugs, bullies and just plan bad people at all of those schools. Surprisingly my elementary school Davison was the worst of them all. I literally saw people killed in knife fights right in front of my eyes. I saw others have fights in the shop class with saws where they hacked each other up so bad you would swear they were going to bleed to death and one of them did one time.

Among these bad people there were roving gangs of young criminals that use to extort money from kids, take their lunch money from them and run them home and beat them up all the way. It didn’t take me long to figure out the game and put together my own self-defense crew. We never bother anybody that didn’t bother us first and believe me they found out they bleed the same red blood we did when we gave them a little of their own medicine. That's a real Detroit story not a gentrified view of Detroit from a loft on the Riverwalk!

Even though I never see the faces of the people on this site I see those same thugs and bullies in their writings on this site from time-to-time. Further, I am so proud of so many members of this site that take these bad people to task and let them know they can’t get away with their brand of TERRORISM.

So, as I said I made amends which is not the same thing as saying “I am sorry” or “I apologize” because I don’t. Making amends is making right what is wrong and I did that. I will live in the spirit of those words but as I said I’m not going to roll over, either.

Livedog2
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Themax
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Username: Themax

Post Number: 60
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.246.123.118
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can see a lot of additional problems arising from separating the sexes especially in the elementary grades. Popular culture shows us that misogyny is alive and well, so how can we be assured that a single sex school won't create the impression in the students' minds that the opposite sex is the cause of their problems in/with school?
IMO it is avoiding dealing with the more pervasive problems of discipline,dress codes, and parents who intimidate teachers and administrators.
I remember those discussions in the early '90's. The big argument then was that black males needed more black male role models, the unspoken message being that the all male black academies would only hire male teachers.
But young girls need positive male role models too so they don't have to feel that they have to settle for the local yutzes.
Livernoisyard: How are boys being feminized by having female teachers? I think the macho-ization of the popular culture --pro sports, rap, movies-- is a much greater danger. Having a female science or math teacher shows boys that women can do more than look pretty and service men.
And taking boys out of the schools doesn't guarantee that girls won't continue to fight over them.
(Message edited by themax on June 30, 2006)

(Message edited by themax on June 30, 2006)

(Message edited by themax on June 30, 2006)
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Hagglerock
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Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 257
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 12.214.243.66
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm pretty surprised that this was passed with a 33-5 vote. I figured it would have been much more contested.

Themax what you say is very valid and it goes both ways and not simply to our schools. For example; I work in a very male dominated environment, by last year's census only 5.3% were female, and of that small percentage only .5% were fellow officers of mine (from roughly 176,000 people). In the realm of this vast 'sausage fest' it is very easy to become biased towards females and ever so often generalize them accordingly. In fact I've know officers who would proudly announce that the three things they hated most were "women, sailors and lieutenants”.

Point being, there is no simple way we solve male/female scapgoating and generalizations. To me separate institutions only polarizes the gender issue and NEGATES any progress our society makes towards gender equality. Could it help? Yes, but it has to balanced like Kova suggested. Personally I thank my mother and the male and female schools I went to for showing me women aren't all weak, emotional, bad driving Jezebels that many of my co-workers believe.

citing my facts;
https://www.patrick.af.mil/DEO MI/Observances%20&%20Demograph ics/Deomographics/Demographics _2005_09.pdf
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Morena
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Username: Morena

Post Number: 434
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 216.45.2.138
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again I say, Detroit parents and students deserve educational CHOICES!

Give Detroit public, charters, private, vouchers, same-sex schools, vocational education, etc., and watch Detroit positively transform itself.

Since so many people posting on Detroityes.com enjoy talking about what it takes a bring a city like Detroit back, I encourage everyone to look at cities you consider "successful" or "cool" or "hip" or whatever other adjective you want to use and I can assure you that the educational options available include a vast array of CHOICES!

We need to stop being afraid of what unions or liberals will say in response to these educational CHOICES and do what's right for children (who also happen to represent a significant percentage of the City's population).
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1811
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.144.94.40
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

amen
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3944
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points Themax, and Hagglerock.

Morena, really, why must you politicize everything? This isn't a liberal or union issue, this is an issue of human interaction, and what's best for children. Talk about a political hack, everything is always liberal or conservation, Democrat or Republican with you, and most had avoided that in this conversation, and rightly so, because it should have little to no bearing on the issue.
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Morena
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Username: Morena

Post Number: 435
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 216.45.2.138
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Liberalmichigan:

Detroit's education system is failing because people like YOU are SCARED to make the tough and right decisions because of what unions and liberals will say and do in response.

Look at the ACLUeless does when legislation is introduced to allow for same-sex schools, they file a lawsuit in opposition.

Look at DFT's staunch opposition on charter schools in Detroit even though there is evidence everywhere you turn that parents are preferring them by approx. students 10,000 annually.

What are YOU SCARED of? "This is an issue of human interaction, and what's best for children ..." If it's about doing what's best for children, then I challenge you to stand up and agree to allow Detroit parents and their kids educational CHOICES!

Give Detroit families voucher's to attend UofD Jesuit, Holy Redeemer, DePorres, Dominican, East Catholic.

Allow for the creation of more vo-tech school's like Randolph, Breithaupt, Crockett, and Golightly. Let more students enroll and obtain a high school diploma from the vo-tech school.

The fact is YOU'RE SCARED to take the right position. Or, maybe, you can afford these educational CHOICES for your child(ren) and do not believe that ALL children should be afforded the same opportunities.

Shame on you.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3945
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, please. More political hackery, tired rhetoric, and buzzwords. Typical. Perhaps, you should read back through ALL of my post, and more importantly, you need to drop the politics. This is an issue of children, not a red-or-blue issue as you want to make it so incredibly badly. I'm sorry this is an issue of red-and-blue politics for you. For the rest of us, it's the issue children, and it's not one-sided regardless of how much you wish it to be.

No, shame on you for politicizing something that doesn't need to be.

(Message edited by lmichigan on June 30, 2006)
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 968
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anytime somebody who spends or lives off taxpayers' money says, "We're doing ___ [fill in the blanks...] for the children", better keep a firm hold on your wallet!
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1673
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 75.9.244.48
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 4:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Catholics have educated boys and girls in same-sex schools for years. Many successful people have gone to all-boy or all-girl high schools, myself included. These schools have been successful for the most part, have they not?

Allowing public schools to have same-sex schools can't hurt if done on the middle school or high school levels. I do think that it's important that younger students in K-6 have that co-ed experience. With the onslaught of hormones kicking in around seventh-grade, it's not a bad idea to have some same-sex public schools as an option to the traditional co-ed schools.

Six and a half hours a day out of 24 is not an eternity to go without seeing the opposite sex. There are still plenty of opportunities after school and on the weekends to have boys and girls socialize with one another.

For me, going to an all-boy high school was a good experience. I was more concerned about being an athlete than a ladies' man, and the school I went to had a good athletic program. Also, the absence of young ladies in the classroom probably contributed to my grade point average being a lot higher than what it would have been if I was in a class with young ladies. I know that I would have been distracted.

Now, I realize nothing is perfect. There are some things that happened to my friends in co-ed schools that I wish I had experienced. However, I, along with my parents, made a choice. Again for me, going to an all-boy high school was a good choice, and when we are talking about giving students the best education for them, isn't it about having choices?

(Message edited by royce on July 01, 2006)
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 578
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 71.10.61.35
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any controversial issues that hit these forums always turn into a metaphor for race relations or political affiliations or liberal or conservative issues between people in the city of Detroit. What a bunch of tired, haranguing, bitching and moaning whiners! Blacks always see racists, liberals always see conservatives, Republicans always see DemocRATS.

Livedog2
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Cheddar_bob
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Username: Cheddar_bob

Post Number: 726
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.61.29.180
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm white and I can see your paper thin racist remarks, Live2dog.
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Themax
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Username: Themax

Post Number: 62
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.246.123.118
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Harlem Academy doesn't appear to have single sex
classes.
http://www.harlemacademy.org/i ndex.html

MArva Collins's school doesn't talk about single sex classes.
http://www.marvacollinspreparatory.com/faq.html

Both these schools emphasize small classes.

(Message edited by themax on July 01, 2006)
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7milekid
Member
Username: 7milekid

Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.61.161.193
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this is a wonderful idea
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Livedog2
Member
Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 580
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 71.10.61.35
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who cares what you think you Homobob? You're still pissed because I called you out about your reverse queer bashing! So, just sit in the corner and read your House Beautiful design magazines. When we want more of your opinions we'll squeeze your nose, again!

Livedog2
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Pacypacy_
Member
Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 187
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 24.192.166.67
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susanarosa QUOTE: "Dude, it's not even been a half hour, chill out.
I asked that question because I believe that your categorization of Detroit children named Hykeem and Shaniqua mixed with your concerns about dress codes and gangs and represent thinly/badly veiled racism."

Now there's the standard circle the wagons play the race card when all else fails response....bravo-bravo!
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2239
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to fear people: when the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative is passed this fall, the entire bill will become moot.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3953
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol,

It has been shown that for ballot initiatives to pass in this state they must have much more than 50 percent to pass. The MCRI is stuck with 48% for it and 48% against it, and support has fallen from about 60% since the beginning of the year, and will probably tank even more. Don't call the race, just yet.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2246
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Then you have yet another reason to vote for the MCRI this fall now, don't you.
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Ron
Member
Username: Ron

Post Number: 194
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.79.230
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The MCRI will fail, and Granholm will win due to its presence on the ballot in November. Little Jenny Gratz has virtually guaranteed Granholm's re-election.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2248
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan said it best," Don't call the race, just yet."
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3957
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mcp001, those that are pushing this thought they were just going to roll over the opposition. It seems Ms. Gantz and her controller, Ward Conerlly (or however you spell it), have a race on their hands, one that energized an opposition they did not expect. Their numbers are moving down, not up.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1006
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Polls don't mean too much during the summer before a November election other than a general barometer. Changes from one month to the next are usually unreliable.

Wait until Labor Day. That's when the media ads start and, during October, they will be in full force, and the polls start to become realistic.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2250
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan, it is still very early in the election season, and most people aren't even aware of what it on the ballot this fall.

I can just see the election ads from the anti-MCRI crowd this fall.

Fade from black on a medium shot of the guv sitting on the edge of her desk in Lansing.

V/O: Hello, I'm Jennifer Granholm, and I'm a racist. If you're a racist like me and those wacky kids in BAMN, then you'll support our efforts to make damn sure that people pay attention to other peoples color/race/ethnicity when we make hiring choices in the public sector, education sector, or when dealing with public contracts. Why not paying attention to other people's color/race/ethnicity makes you...well er, um...

Fade to black.

Legal disclamer in #2 Ariel font: Paid for by Racists against MCRI & BAMN: Luke Massie, Treasurer

OABTW, just how much credibility do you think that the anti-MCRI crowd will have when people find out that Mark Bernstein, head of the Michigan Civil Rights Commission, held a fundraiser in his home last week in support of the opposition to the MCRI?
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3959
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe you should help them out. Sounds like you already have an inflammatory commercial and everything.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2251
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If stating the truth is "inflammatory" Lmichigan, then I will take that as a complement.

And just to let you know, I have been helping them out for some time now. I helped to circulate their petition on my own time (and for the record, everyone did read it before signing).
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3960
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 12:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good for you, though we could sit here and argue the meaning of the word "truth" all day.

(Message edited by lmichigan on July 03, 2006)
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2253
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's see here:

My definition of a rasict can be best defined by the following: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.

If you find this definition in incorrect, or want to argue in support of the hypocrisy of the anti-MCRI crowd (i.e. Jennifer Granholm, Dennis Archer, Dick DeVos, Luke Massie and Mark Bernstein), then let's hear your arguments right here and now.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3964
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, because Affirmative Action was created out of spite and hate to yoke and beat up on the white man because they are so oppressed, right? Give me a break. You can start your own thread on the MCRI if you want.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2265
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So much for defending their position, you've only succedded in validating mine.

Thanks, Lmichigan.
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Jenniferl
Member
Username: Jenniferl

Post Number: 290
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 4.229.156.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think certain aspects of affirmative action need to be changed, but the MCRI is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2268
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The bill mentioned at the top of this thread becomes moot when the MCRI is approved in November.
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English
Member
Username: English

Post Number: 511
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 75.7.133.24
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right, we need MCRI, because there are so many black people on Michigan's college campuses right now.

Is this really Michigan's top priority right now? Kicking supposedly underqualified black kids out of our colleges... is this supposed to boost the economy?

MCRI very well may pass, if only because during tough times, people look for scapegoats. It's much easier than confronting the real issues.
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Hagglerock
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Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 263
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 12.214.243.66
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

English and Jenniferl
You both make a damn good points, but how do we confront the real issue that you speak about? Does affirmitative action really confront that issue? I think it does to an extent, especially helping someone from a terrible school get a chance at an undergrad education. (Then again we give Native Americans free college and most of their communities are still dirt poor). I know the MCRI intent is to not be racist, but my gut feeling tells me that something is just not right with the whole lot.

In the educational field why not make a system based soley on family income combined with the schools track record. I am aware that financial aid kinda of works along those lines, but it does nothing to help kids from poor schools even get a chance. I'll say it again, diversity is our best and maybe only chance.
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Detroitteacher
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Username: Detroitteacher

Post Number: 122
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have helped MANY students obtain scholarships and grants (money that doesn't have to be paid back). Students must remember that having a well rounded high school experience will also help with admissions to college. As a teacher, I see kids rejected by universities and accepted to universities. What needs to happen is to give kids an equal education (ie funding) across the state and country. So many of DPS students are not equipped to go off to college and compete with other students. It's a sad reality. While we do have some exceptional students, many don't have the GPA and extra curriculars that are needed to go to a major university. Should they be given an opportunity above all others, maybe. They didn't have a great chance, otherwise. I also think we need to help students become more aware of what they need to do to prepare themselves for college admissions from Kindergarten on up. I always tell my students to not rely on anyone or anything other than their own hard work and merits to help them succeed. Hopefully, by my talking to them from the time they enter into my class, they will realize what is required of each applicant. I'm all for affirmative action, but it shouldn't be a crutch.

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