  Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1194 Registered: 11-2003 |
Was working out at the gym today and watching CNBC on the elliptical machine. They were doing a piece on the housing funk gripping the country. Basically save a few southern states and Montana, the year over year sales and prices were down in every other state. They were then asked where the worst markets were currently. They pointed out Florida as being particularly bad, a couple other places, and finished the piece with "and, of course, Detroit". And that was that. Going beyond the snide remarks (seems so often when reporting something bad from Detroit, it is coupled with "as usual", or "of course" etc), when in the world, if ever, is Detroit and Michigan gonna get out of this funk affecting nearly all aspects of life? While most parts of the country are hiring while housing is stagnant, or jobs are harder to come by while housing makes up for it, it seems all the economic trends in Detroit are pointing downwards. Jobs, and especially good paying ones are incredibly hard to find and the competition intense; housing prices are falling, assuming you can even get a buyer interested in your place; foreclosures lead the nation; population continues to bleed (and for some reason, despite all this, new homes are being constructed). It just seems like bad news after bad news. Momentum is contagious both ways, good and bad. I think most can deal with it for awhile, and especially if they think there is good on the flip side. My concern is that this isn't so much a funk, as it is a permanent restructuring of the economy & housing. This is a correction and not a funk. But I'm no economist. Is there a bright future on the other side or is the once fairly wealthy metro area and state correcting itself and will come out of this as just a less wealthy and less desirable place to live? It isn't fun for anyone when the entire region is in a funk. It rubs, it is depressing for everyone. Empty homes, for sale signs, empty stores. Seeing all that just drains one after awhile. The other issue is that other locales and cities can maybe transform themselves because they are desirable for other reasons (weather, culture, big city life, etc). Unfortunately I don't think Michigan has much of that going for them. Will the economy come out healthy again? When? Or is the state just going to be filled with more people without jobs and a rather gloomy overall economic condition? Will those left behind become a drain on the state or will they go elsewhere to find work (the same way so many came to Detroit 50-100 years ago)? I sure hope it does. Even if you are one fortunate to have a good, secure job, with good pay and a nice home, it isn't fun when few others around you struggle every day. Someone once said to me something of the effect that "I don't want to ride around in my limo while everyone else is begging on the street". I kinda feel that line might apply here. Is that is what will happen? Sorry for the long post. Just doing some mind wandering today.... I guess from a more personal perspective, my long time GF has lived in Detroit her entire life. All her family is here. I love visiting and it is very possible that we will someday decide to come back to Michigan because she doesn't want to be away. But to be honest, it is very hard for me to think about doing that. I have no doubt I can be happy just about anywhere, but all the economic indicators are really hard to digest, not to mention the overall poor health of the city itself. It just isn't a fun life when so many things point down. It is a city and state I really love, but not so sure I'd really choose to live there if I had the option. A much healthier economy certainly would help me feel more comfortable about the possibility of having to move. That is all  | ||
Vandykenjefferson Member Username: Vandykenjefferson Post Number: 34 Registered: 06-2006 |
I don't know about sales, but I think Detroit proper is actually in the middle of a housing building boom. See http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060214/B IZ03/602140366 I think all too often Detroit is lumped in with its suburbs when it comes to the national media. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1195 Registered: 11-2003 |
Vandy- Agreed. However, economies tend to be region-wide. Even if Detroit is booming, it still would take decades to become healthy again, and certainly even if that were to happen, having the rest of the metro area struggling doesn't do much for anyone, just like having Detroit struggling doesn't help the rest of the metro area (though many people like to think it doesn't matter, it certainly does) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3119 Registered: 08-2004 |
Er, um excuse me, but the suburban unemployment rate is still much lower than Detroit's unemployment rate. You're reading WAY too much into that one statistic.... | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1910 Registered: 07-2004 |
Michigan is the heart of America's manufacturing. No other state has as much manufacturing activity as Michigan. When manufacturing jobs leave the state and the country, Michigan feels the brunt of it. Auto manufacturing is the heart of Michigan manufacturing. Poor sales of the Big 3 also add to the manufacturing crisis. How do you reinvent the state of Michigan when most of the history of this state is tied to manufacturing? People didn't come to Michigan because of the weather. They came here for the jobs and the promise of a better life. This region is hurting not only because of the loss in manufacturing jobs. This region is hurting because of racial tensions and attitudes. Whites don't want to live with blacks, and blacks don't trust whites. Sprawl also adds to many of the regional problems here in Michigan. Duplication of services, the stretching of tax dollars to repair Michigan roads, and the overbuilding of housing are just a few examples of the negative impact of sprawl. People came to Michigan to find good jobs. Michigan created the middle class with those jobs. Now Michigan is nothing more than a has been state that the rest of the country could care less about. While the rest of the country ignores Michigan's plight, they are only fooling themselves in thinking this country will prosper with non-union service industry jobs. Their idea of making a good living is working two or three jobs that together equal the wages of a worker in manufacturing here in Michigan. What's affecting Michigan now will affect the rest of the country. Just look at the problems in housing. Yeah, Michigan is suffering but the rest of America is also hurting. They just don't want to face the truth. A different way of thinking by the powers that be is needed not only in Michigan but across the United States. Too much focus is on a company doing well to please its stockholders, but not enough focus is on keeping jobs here in Michigan or in the U.S. A Las Vegas-driven economy is not going to make the U.S. prosperous. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1153 Registered: 12-2004 |
I'd like to see a greater spirit of entrepreneurship in our community. No one starts their own business. They all try to find existing jobs. Thats not good for growth. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1488 Registered: 06-2004 |
Small businesses have been folding left and right. It's not an encouraging sight to someone thinking of going on their own. Just yesterday one of our vendors revealed that he ate $20K last month when a long time customer closed up shop. Talking to people I know payables in many businesses are running at least 60 days out right now. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 841 Registered: 03-2006 |
I think the the Big 3 and Michigan will start to turn around in 2007. Delphi plans to emerge from bankruptcy as a profitable company (ala Kmart) in 2007. Things won't be as they once were but Detroit and Michigan will persevere. Just look at the 1980s -- now that was bad. It's uphill from here even if it's a rocky hill. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 158 Registered: 02-2006 |
Sprawl is hardly a Metro Detroit specific problem, and if it were a major factor, it would be affecting the rest of the country just as badly. Most every large city is losing population to sprawl. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1224 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Sprawl is hardly a Metro Detroit specific problem, and if it were a major factor, it would be affecting the rest of the country just as badly. Most every large city is losing population to sprawl." O ya??? where... Last time I checked every major city OTHER than Detroit was gaining population INSPITE of sprawl... Other than that... The situation with Detroit, is pretty much as bad as if Vegas lost gambling... We have NO other industry here... name one that employs a significant number of workers. Services dont count.. they dont produce wealth, they just take it and pass the buck. So if you take road construction, medical, Home Construction, convinence stores, gas stations, retail, real estate, ect. Things that are simply necessary services of American life (The consumer economy)... what do we have other than autos? What do we produce that we sell in other places? The money to pay for our consumer economy has to come in to our local economy from somewhere to stimulate growth. Without it, it is similar to buying goods on credit instead of cash... you can cut back and do it for a little bit (what we are seeing now) but the money HAS to come from SOMEwhere.. Until we have an industry that is an economic engine for this region, that sells products around the world and brings the treasure chest back here for the rest of us to feast on down the line of spending.... this region will suffer from all corners of the economy. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1057 Registered: 12-2005 |
I've heard late 2007, late 2008, late 2009. I often wonder how these forecasters derive their conclusions. Maybe the shakeup in Washington will have an effect. Note that Bush finally consented to meet with automakers. I wouldn't bet the farm on that having an effect though. Diversifying the Michigan economy sounds like a smart move. It seems to have some acceptance too. On the other hand, that was also discussed in the 80s and not enough came of it. With the increasingly available less-educated workforce here, perhaps some "just-in-time inventory" approach to education might help Michigan. Currently, before careers even begin, we fill minds with several years of college all at once, much of which is never used in practice and some of which becomes obsolete. An alternative would be to determine exactly which microskills are truly needed and provide just that training just before it's needed on the job. The process would have to continue throughout one's career but could be more easily adjusted to changing markets/technology. Employees could more gradually accumulate knowledge and earning power. The concept of "lifelong learning" isn't new but what I would propose is that it ultimately replace the existing traditional degree programs. Academia has not yet had to adapt to the changing economy as have companies and employees. Perhaps it's time they tried. | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2006 |
lilpup- your right- I'm 24 and work in the building trades- hardwood floor refinsher/installer. anyways, I work for a freind who started his own business 2 years ago and he is FUCKED! this economy has got us whoring ourselves out for what little work we get it sucks and most every other trade has slowed down too. east- agree partly with you on the big 3 gm is definetly going to rebound because there product line-up is far superior to every other domestic automaker. FORD IS COMPLETLY FUCKED! they have already lost 10 billion in the first 3 quarters of '06 chrysler will remain stagnent or a little better than last year due to the fact their customer base are all morons! for some reason they can get away with building way to many cars based on ONE platform and people still but it?! remember the K car in the '80s? same deal and it brought them out of bankruptcy?! go figure. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 96 Registered: 09-2006 |
Alex , actually many cities are losing population due to sprawl besides Detroit,,, Cleveland, Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Philadelphia and Buffalo to name some,,, generally many midwest and eastern older cities,, | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 134 Registered: 04-2006 |
The housing market sucks here because when the economy is good, developers built like mad, knowing that the lemmings of Metro Detroit will follow their neighbor into oblivion into the unheard of townships of Livingston and northern Oakland and Macomb Counties...as well as St. Clair and Lapeer Counties. There always seems to be a huge surplus of housing when the economy is stagnant-to-good. And even though Metro Detroit is not growing (other than the few more births than deaths) all these new houses that become occupied are replacing occupied housing somewhere else. Ultimately, somewhere in the housing submarket, vacancies occur. Now, it doesn't take a genius to understand where the epicenter of outward migration originates (DETROIT) and now the inner rings. So, next time we're fighting a mass epidemic of abandoned buildings, this might help illustrate why. So, in some regards the current state of the economy might be viewed as a good thing. Where's the hottest housing market? Detroit and downtown. Why? I'd imagine it has something to do with penny pinching and not being able to spread resources so thin like in a prosperous economy that people need to be near where they work. This reinvestment is actually helping the economy in small steps and is somewhat teaching people quality of life lessons whether you're in the city or the suburbs. Hopefully, a few more months or years of a sour economy will really give Detroit an edge in ensuring or locking in a city initiative that won't go away even when the economy here thrives again. Let's just hope that that future prosperity will accelerate in the city and not just reabandon it for the careless home builders on 4,000 Mile Road. Lets keep our heads up. The ball is in our court! | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1225 Registered: 11-2004 |
I just wrote a life altering post.. and then IE decided to take a shit in the middle of it being sent  if i feel like doing it again later i will | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1058 Registered: 12-2005 |
Alexei289, next time try composing it in notepad first, saving frequently. My condolences. | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 138 Registered: 04-2006 |
I thought you were just trying to be trendy or computer "kewl" by typing IE. I read it as "I" decided to take a shit...which led me to wonder, since when does going poop affect whether your message is sent or not? But I get it now. I'm Wayne State educated. lol | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1911 Registered: 07-2004 |
Regarding sprawl, as long as there is some virgin land left to build on, Americans are going to build on it. The great cities of Europe recycle and rebuild their cities. We here in the U.S. just discard what we use up and move to greener pastures. First there were ghost towns. How long before we have ghost cities? As long as we have this mentality of use up and discard, we'll continue to squander our chances at true prosperity. This isn't just a Michigan problem, but a national problem. (Message edited by royce on November 21, 2006) | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 140 Registered: 04-2006 |
True, but the Detroit region seems to suffer on more extreme levels than many other American markets. So your Atlantas, Charlottes, Houstons, Chicagos, and Minneapolises may wastefully sprawl and it affects their economies, we suffer just a little bit more as we haven't yet diversified our economy enough to counter or mfg heritage here. Also, it's important to point out that greenfields are much more able to be developed. Brownfields are very difficult. Therefore it's much more economical for developers to develop as cheap as they can in the greenfields. That's what the market dictates. You have to be a very determined developer to built new and rehab in older areas. Basically, the best way to look at it is ownership. It's much easier to acquire (own) land in the suburbs to develop as it is in an existing place. You have to go through many a loophole and obsticle in the city. Banks recognize this and respond to the risk accordingly. I realize I just contradicted my last post, but it all ties in together as the nature of the beast. I didn't invent it. ;) | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 365 Registered: 12-2003 |
I work for a major supplier to professional residential builders. Nationally we are the largest in our business and have just began a company wide system of selective attrition; over 2500 people in all. Our Detroit Market locations had performed an initial round of layoffs last winter and now are really reeling. Locally two major competitors have been severely affected. Banner Lumber, located in Detroit, has closed for good, and James Lumber, which had five suburban locations has closed four with only one remaining. These losses are substantial considering every other supplier in the area has been performing their own layoffs; National Lumber, Grosbeck Lumber, Carter Lumber, Mann's Lumber and Millwork, Milliken Millwork, General Hardwood, Patterson Buck, 84 Lumber. This business is/was huge in this area and has been sharply curtailed. One of our largest locations has seen its sales numbers drop by more than 60% from what they were two years ago. And the word is that the bottom hasn't been reached yet. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1196 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sprawl and too much housing is a problem, but I'm surprised to hear so many here thinking the economy will come back. Is that the general feeling as opposed to this being a fundamental correction and the good times are gone forever? I'm sure it can get better from where it is now, but maybe now is the new average, it will dip further, and then end up where we are today? I guess its always good to be optimistic. Its just extremely difficult to see when/if this will happen when so much of the rest of the country was and still is experiencing growth, while it seems most of the economy here is going south. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 343 Registered: 08-2006 |
Right, if we keep hoping for a turnaround that is leveraging our present against a better future too come. Too depressing a way to live. I think once most of the auto company jobs leave and the talent with it, we should try to re invent ourselves as a charming small town, not a big city with lots of empty delapadated buildings that only act as a reminder of how things used to be. There are lots of nice places in the country where the towns are relatively small, less than 300K people. | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 142 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'm no economics expert, but I believe the economy will recover. We have too much in existence here for it not to. I think a key in our recovery though is to actually buck the trend of what is market status quo. That being we reinvest heavily in the existing infrastructure that supports our economy. "Pull in" to build up, as opposed to "Push out" to build down. Counteract subsidizing sprawl and wasteful energy dispensing. One of the sectors to watch out for in my opinion is education. And if we can come to an epiphany on regional transportation, this alone could really lift SE Michigan out of the doldrums. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 221 Registered: 10-2006 |
100 plus years ago, farmers were in the same straights Metro Detroit is experiencing. The country went from 70% of the population being farmers, to less than 2%. It's going to change, nothing you can do about it, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Get pragmatic about it, don't hope for a miracle. Metro Detroit is going to get a lot smaller before it starts getting bigger. I wish that wasn't the case, but I can't see anything rescuing Metro. This is from watching the Cali economy yo-yoing the last 30 years. We have diversification out here, that doesn't exist in Metro Detroit. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1197 Registered: 11-2003 |
Fortress, that is a good point. Northeast textiles and steelmaking are good examples. All items that are still used by everyone around the world today, just a whole lot smaller and spread out. Part of the question I suppose. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 223 Registered: 10-2006 |
It's going to be a global economy, no doubt about it. It's just Metro Detroit is one of the places that's really going to take in the shorts. Americans have to do high value jobs, that gets back to the education thing. But people can't change as fast as the world economy. That's the big challenge. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 134 Registered: 08-2006 |
How did Pittsburgh survive/reinvent after the disappearance of Big Steel (at least on the manufacturing side)? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1780 Registered: 10-2004 |
"One of the sectors to watch out for in my opinion is education. And if we can come to an epiphany on regional transportation, this alone could really lift SE Michigan out of the doldrums." Nonsense. Acquiring a decent education requires a totally different mindset than is currently in place in SE Michigan, especially Detroit and its inner burbs. Furthermore, it also requires around sixteen years of real effort in order to learn a basic profession or craft skills. I see little evidence of that in play in Metro Detroit. As to regional transportation: What's the use of spending massive sums on transportation if there are not enough jobs to go around or people with money requiring transportation to go shopping or spending any disposable income? Detroit will join other cities in its entering receivership before any effects of education come to fruition anyway. The expected layoffs at the assembly plants will ripple down to the Tier plants for the remainder of the decade and beyond. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 22, 2006) | ||
Vandykenjefferson Member Username: Vandykenjefferson Post Number: 35 Registered: 06-2006 |
Gistok - I was speaking about the housing market, not the economy as a whole. I'm not blind to the fact that Detroit is in the economic basement, but on the housing issue, (per the article I linked to earlier, I think it is clear that) Detroit is seeing an uptick while the 'burbs are in the middle of a recession. thanks, rob | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 97 Registered: 09-2006 |
Pittsburgh diversified to some white collar insurance/banking based industries as well as had several other headquarters that they focused on to expand, ( Detroit does also actually). They also focused more on their educational and medical institutions,,(Detroit has this also)Also, they focused on a 20 year plan for revitalization and were fairly successful with it,, They however, like Detroit, and many other cities mentioned above have experienced declining city population to its suburbs, and to this date still deal with many of the similar problems Detroit and Cleveland experience...,They do stress a regional city though and the general population embraces it. They do not seem occupied with a suburb vs city mentality in certain ways,,They realize a strong central city means possible prosperity for all | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2106 Registered: 12-2004 |
A big part of the reason why Michigan is in so much trouble is the SBT. Everyone has more or less known what needs to be done (eliminate the current tax and replace it with a traditional corporate income tax that has a rate on par with, or below, our neighboring states). The problem is that no one in the Michigan Legislature actually wanted to do that. The GOP controlled both houses and thought they could get a better deal by waiting until a Republican was in the Governor's Mansion. They know now that this isn't going to happen and the Dems are in control of the House. Hopefully, we'll see movement on the SBT beginning in January. That will help Michigan attract new businesses and retain the ones we already have. The other thing that needs to happen in Michigan is a general diversification of our economy so that when the auto industry is in trouble, it doesn't take the entire state with it. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10894 Registered: 10-2003 |
This funk will end when after we get a new governor. Until then, get used to being ranked worst in the nation. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 368 Registered: 12-2003 |
you are joking right? | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1914 Registered: 07-2004 |
Finding a way to expand trade with Canada might be a way to intially diversify. Trucking companies from around the country could use Detroit as a hub or headquarters. An expanded trucking industry will need more drivers, more warehouse personnel, more mechanics, etc.... | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1489 Registered: 06-2004 |
Detroit's already the largest truck volume border crossing in the country. Cleveland's already cornered the container shipping business, combining rail, truck, and ship. There's little incentive for that to move up the lakes to Detroit except for Canadian bound goods (which would help Windsor anyway). Is Windsor as crunched as Detroit is right now? | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 299 Registered: 09-2006 |
The middle class which Detroit was mainly composed of is declining in general nationwide. As long as trade agreements are in place that make hiring an unionized American worker an unattractive and expensive deal then manufacturing based jobs will continue to decline. Which in turn will hurt Detroit. Economic diversity in my mind is something that politicians at the state and local levels should make priority number 1. I would opt to move the regions economy to a more finance and research based one, with manufacturing still playing a prominent role. We have the infrastructure we just need the drive and determination to make it happen and that starts with the leadership in the city and state. While one day I would love to be the leadership in charge of making these decisions I haven’t the slightest clue as to how this would be done. At least now anyway. What would it take to get a large stock exchange to start or relocate here? Maybe that’s a way. But despite all of the bad news Detroit will never die in fact looking around the city you are seeing signs everywhere that a rebirth is inevitable. You can almost feel it in the air and taste it. So chin up man there is always light at the end of every tunnel. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2952 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroit's economic funk IS Mich's economic funk. Conversely to see where MI is headed look at DET ... THAT is michigan's future. (btw MI problem could likely become a national problem too but that is stuff for another thread) IMO the problem is the state really can't afford to maintain the infrastructure made to be a manufacturing juggernaut in a moribund NATIONAL manufacturing economy. It will end when the state EITHER significantly DEPOPULATES OR significantly increases it's population (preferably by repopulating Detroit, but whatever it takes). This is an across the board problem (educational system, transportation, housing, health care, tax base, employment, cultural issues etc etc). It isn't JUST one thing: ie JOBS or EDUCATION or TRANSPORTATION or CULTURE and touching on one thing misses the point. DEPOPULATION is a natural and inevitable process but it is SLOOOOW. Certainly SE MI has been losing people for decades (I'm one of them) but in spite of this has experienced modest population GROWTH overall (actually over the last few decades comparable to the greater BOS region). It takes generations for depopulation to occur. For example western NY, western PA, northern WV have been moribund for over two generations now and have lost merely trickles of population (a few percent in the most recent decades). The poverty stricken and overpopulated Mississippi delta in the turn of the previous century took til mid century to significantly depopulate. Similarly the agricultural parts of the northern great plains states (NE, SD, ND, and MN) were overpopulated in the early parts of the 20th century and took til the 50s and 60's to significantly dessicate. Increasing population OTOH is FAAAST. Consider: late 1800's NYC, turn of the 20th century CHI, auto boom DET, post-war LA, late century FLA, recent DC-metro etc etc. Millions are possible (over time). The thing is there have to be reasons for people to move in. Now I'm a fairly bright feller and I can't figure out any reasons OTHER than (1) fresh water, (2) the intracontinental border crossing (for what it's worth) and (3) vaast quantities of inexpensive quality housing. I'm not sure how these three features will create opportunities to attract hordes of immigrants from around the world and whatever are the modern day equivalent of indigenous migrant workers. (Re migrants, I'm not only talking about the modern-day equivalent of the Auto boom apalachain whites and Miss delta blacks and whites but also the slick, high-added-value types hiiigh up on the food chain that don't have DET on their radar other than a place to switch flights when flying NWA). Tough tough problem. Easier speculating as to who killed JFK on that other thread ... | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 69 Registered: 04-2006 |
'Diversification' is necessary, but it's something that is very difficult for a local government to impose as an instrument of policy. Local governments can offer incentives, like tax abatements, or 'special enterprise zones,' etc., but none of those measures actually create diversification - they are merely policy tools meant to attract diverse companies to the area. The problem is that companies have a lot of options these days. When a company decides to relocate somewhere, it doesn't merely look at the incentives that are being offered. It looks at the entire area - it's ability to attract skilled workers, its economic future, the quality of the local schools and universities, etc. The worse those factors look, the better the incentives need to be to lure business. Detroit isn't the first metro area to face a steep and seemingly-terminal economic downturn. Think of Seattle back during the Boeing cutbacks of the 70's and 80's. Seattle had one big industry - aerospace - along with some shipping around the ports, and some ancillary activity from logging. When aerospace got hit, the region went reeling. People were rather glum about Seattle's future. After all, it was rainy outpost located far away from major cities like SF or LA. Who would want to move THERE? What followed was 'diversification.' I don't have time to type out the book-length process by which this happened, but it is a stunning case-study in how a metro area can turn things around. It's hard to imagine now, but for a long time, Seattle had a reputation as an uncultured, largely uneducated 'redneck' town full of loggers and manual laborers. The 'diversification' of Seattle's economy is often credited to the miraculous intervention of Microsoft. Bill Gates was from the Seattle area and apparently missed home, so he went back there when he went into business. Microsoft is a huge regional economic engine, but the turnaround was deeper than that. In fact, by the time Microsoft went public in 1986, the process was well-underway. It's difficult to detail all the changes that made Seattle work again, but there were a few important factors: -Seattle became a place where young people wanted to stay and develop careers. It used to bleed talent away to other cities. Now it sucks talent in FROM other cities, including the Detroit region. Part of this has to do with the development of a whole cultural scene that caters to people in their 20's. But more importantly, there are lots of attractive jobs for them to fill. Which leads us into some of the structural factors... -The quality of the public school system is generally acceptable to young professionals with children. People don't feel compelled to shell out huge sums of money for a private school due to the decrepitude of the public schools. -Seattle marketed itself aggressively overseas, particularly in Japan and Taiwan. For a long while, Asian companies didn't think to build facilities in Seattle, since it felt more natural to do that in SF or LA. Seattle created an entire brand identity, not only with the business community, but with tourists from Asia. Now, this alone wasn't enough to attract business, but awareness + a good business environment + a good educational infrastructure WAS. The Detroit region needs to take a step back and examine all of our existing 'endowments.' Not just the natural factor endowments like the waterways, but all of our air cargo assets, railways, universities, schools, tax structures, etc. Then we ought to think about 2 big things - what can we do with what we've got, and what do we need to do or build to do better? Plenty of things need work. Detroit public schools are simply abysmal. There's no other way to put it. We have a great research university in Ann Arbor, but most of its grads leave the region. Can they be retained? We have a crappy tax structure that punishes small business creation and leads to a system of special favors and abatements for certain big-time players. We might argue that big companies are 'worth' more than small ones. While true in a short-term economic sense, how big do you think Microsoft was in the early 80's? Our labor laws are not competetive in terms of manufacturing. I may catch some hell for this, but Michigan needs to become a right-to-work state without compulsory unionization. There are plenty of other things, and the future may largely depend upon our willingness to abandon what no longer works, and accept what does. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1199 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wow. Good post. I never knew Seattle was once viewed that way. I'm a youngin, so in the 80's I was in the single digits I grew up in north Idaho, so Seattle was always the "big city" (cause Spokane just isn't big enough), and even as a youngster I remember really enjoying Seattle and saw it as kinda a hip place to be. Went there this past summer after not having gone for 6 years. Most of that city is now what I might call "fancy", just wonderful neighborhoods for the most part. Felt almost like San Francisco just without it being so dense. I think that beyond everything else "wrong" with Detroit, Seattle has the one thing Detroit will NEVER have, and that is breathtaking landscape. Weather is a wash, Seattle has no mass transit save busses, traffic sucks, but the surrounding region is just beautiful. Takes the cake over San Francisco any day in my opinion. On a beautiful summer day I'm not sure there is a prettier big city in the entire country. That alone makes it appealing to many people. But if Microsoft is the thing that changed it, it just proves jobs are the biggest reason a region booms or busts. Detroit boomed with auto. Seattle with Microsoft. Silicon Valley with chips. Despite weather, problems, location, etc, it seems jobs are the key to health. We need another bill gates-esque person who misses home to come back to Detroit and build an empire. | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 70 Registered: 04-2006 |
True, Seattle makes the most of its natural environment. And that does have its own powerful draw. However, for a long time, that wasn't enough to draw people in, and it showed in Seattle's economy. There are a lot of nice-looking places in the Pacific Northwest that nonetheless suffer economically, particularly some of the old logging towns. "it just proves jobs are the biggest reason a region booms or busts." This is exactly right. Jobs make or break a city. In a mobile economy, people gravitate to where the work and money is located. I don't think anyone would call Houston a "beautiful" city, but it has jobs, and it has grown explosively. Even something like the implosion of Enron isn't enough to derail the city's economy. But it really does depend on jobs, and jobs in turn are influenced heavily by the quaility of primary and secondary education. Now, a cynic might say that improving education just makes it easier for kids to get jobs in other places, but the experience in other places shows that some leave, some stay, and some come back after leaving. Look at India. It used to be a national scandal that all the country's best-educated people were being put through school on the government's dime, only to leave and build companies in the US. But over time, some gravitated back, and some began to stay. Schools aren't a short-term fix, but they do need to be fixed. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 47 Registered: 06-2005 |
yes Jimaz Bush FINALLY decided to meet with the big 3. I felt that should have been his FIRST order of business. I'd have met with them the first week and asked what the hell is going on? Detroit could build electric cars (or alternative cars) but I think they are holding back progress for some reason. I would have demanded they get off their asses and get moving on alternative transportation and NOT wait for Japan to take the lead. I think when detroit (big 3) decides to step up and take the lead and put fresh ideas on the table and the assembly lines is when you will see Detroit come back. Bush meeting with them in his 6th year of office just shows me how much Bush cares about the city that had SO much to do with making this nation great! I really do think that the Big 3 could do a lot more than what they are doing and as long as they chose to follow and not lead Detroit will NEVER be what it once was! (JUST MY OPINION). | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2006 |
the big 3 are just making what people want. and their target audience middle class yuppie america want big gas-gussling suvs. japan won the battle but gm will eventually win the war they already have hydrogen vehicles on the road and expect much more efficient models by 2010. seriously, how long do think people are going to keep buying hybrids? its just a very well marketed fad | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1229 Registered: 10-2003 |
"the big 3 are just making what people want. and their target audience middle class yuppie america want big gas-gussling suvs. japan won the battle but gm will eventually win the war they already have hydrogen vehicles on the road and expect much more efficient models by 2010. seriously, how long do think people are going to keep buying hybrids? its just a very well marketed fad." Famous last words. Japan has ALREADY won the war. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10900 Registered: 10-2003 |
Japan has ALREADY won the war. I disagree. It'll just get to the point where the market is split 5, perhaps 6 ways equally. With Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all getting their share. There are people like myself who will NEVER own a vehicle built by them. If for no other reason, I think every car built by them looks like a bland piece of shit. Obviously, there are buyers who either like the styling, or overlook styling for other reasons. In the past, quality was perhaps an issue, yet with increased production, the import market is seeing the same short falls in terms of quality, they just covered it up as long as they could. Won the war? More like a truce if you ask me, where the slice of the pie just gets smaller, but everyone eats. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 370 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bland you say...     Not until the Chrysler 300 C have I ever seen a recent sedan I'd actually consider purchasing. Not everyone wants to buy a sports car or truck/SUV. Tell the Big 3 to learn how to make an appealing sedan and I'll come back. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 261 Registered: 04-2006 |
What Michigan needs is a five percent per county sales tax to pay for a regional mass transit system. This will mean that instead of six percent the new tax will be eleven percent. This will ensure that GM, FORD AND CRHYSLER will once again spend Billions and Billion of your money. While at the same time shut down more buses. Livonia is not alone on this last day of SMART bus service. The Auto companies and railroads will bury you all So, Y'all be stupid and vote YES next August 2010 And get that big warm feeling. In 2064, there will be bus burnings in Detroit as a warming excercise to bring down SEMCOG. Because we all forgot about having compassion, hope and love for others, back in 2006 when the last big SMART bus leaves the city of Livonia. What city will be next? It won't be Detroit cause they know the TRUth and that's the state has already slashed the money for the handicpped. Livonia will not stand alone. Never, Never, Never. There will be more of us and we are not white but of all colors and we supported freedom, but it came at a large cost. In 2006, we were hostages to an illegal DARTA signed to slash over 100 Million per year in state transit money. MDOT is in debt but it has SEMCOG to bully you around with much false propaganda and bullshit. So, take care of Grandma. | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 77 Registered: 02-2004 |
Bussey forgot to include this one:  If you zoom in enough you can catch the "W 08" and "DeVos" stickers. There might even be a remnant of "ThermoNuclear Protection" or "Heath Beach". | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 603 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good posts Salvadordelmundo & Rustic. It's all about jobs and population growth. Growth industries create jobs and population growth. We saw this with the auto industry in the 1920's to about 1960. Since 1960, the Metro Detroit area population has only grown 10% or 0.25% on average annually. See census link below. http://www.censusscope.org/us/ m2160/chart_popl.html Since there hasn't really been a net gain in population growth in Metro Detroit, you realize that people have been moving out of the city of Detroit and into the suburbs. This is what has been driving the real estate market for forty years. I think this paradigm is going to change due to the aging population. Retirees are going to start moving out of state to warmer locals and I think that the mortality rate will keep the population growth flat or cause it to decrease. Younger and old people are starting to migrate to urban settings. So we might see the population decrease in the suburbs and see the population in Detroit stabilize. It's very complex and difficult to predict long term. http://www.michigan.gov/mdch/0 ,1607,7-132-2944_4669---,00.ht ml | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 160 Registered: 02-2006 |
Trainman, have you suffered some sort of head trauma that causes you to spew this nonsense out all of the time? Seriously, nobody cares. Your posts are getting more and more ridiculous with time. | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 8 Registered: 08-2006 |
here's a worthwile sedasn from the big 3....  | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 9 Registered: 08-2006 |
and another.. for some reason they are only sold in australia  | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2006 |
and yet another one once again only in australia  | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1230 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Obviously, there are buyers who either like the styling, or overlook styling for other reasons. In the past, quality was perhaps an issue, yet with increased production, the import market is seeing the same short falls in terms of quality, they just covered it up as long as they could." Don't kid yourself. Build quality is STILL a lot better with Toyota and Honda. Every American car I've ever owned had stuff (knobs, handles, trim pieces, radio panels, etc.) falling off or coming loose by 40,000 miles or so... and other glitches, like "engine service" or "parking brake on" lights coming on for no reason. On the last car I owned, a Jeep Cherokee, the rear wiper motor went out at 50,000 miles. I asked a local repairman about it and he said, "They ALL do that." Why in the hell won't the Detroit automakers use an $80 part that won't break instead of a $30 part that does? I am sick and tired of that kind of crap. Between annoying quality problems and POOR MPG (try and find a non-hybrid US car that gets at least 30 mpg in the city, real-world driving), the US automakers have LOST me as a customer. I won't put up with it anymore. And to think I used to be a huge supporter of the US automakers. They need to get a clue. Good styling is an enticement, but it's not make-or-break with most customers. Fuel economy, reliability, and durability are key issues. If Ford, GM, and DCX keep pumping out bloated, obsolete, substandard crap, they deserve to keep posting annual losses. (Message edited by Fury13 on November 24, 2006) | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10904 Registered: 10-2003 |
Fury13, I've had friends with Honda's in the shop week after week, due to quality issues. I'm not buying into the import companies not having problems with their cars. I had a 1990 Regal with a 3800 with around 300,000 miles on it, never a major issue with it. Didn't use a drop of oil. My whole family has always driven American cars and NEVER had any major issues with any of them, aside from a 1984 Escort that cracked a block at around 70,000 miles. Not even any troubles with interior trim or any other problems you've listed. SOunds like you just had a run of bad luck to me. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1883 Registered: 07-2004 |
Sport the stats simply don't support your contention that the U.S car have been equal to the Japanese in quality.I admire your loyalty, but having that loyalty surely you can see how others (Fury) have that same loyalty to Toyota and Honda etc, etc................. the quality gap has closed considerably but the question is how do you get the Fury's of the car buying public back? In the meanwhile here is something some of you might like to read http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_c i.cfm?kaid=107&subid=123&conte ntid=253184 | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 144 Registered: 04-2006 |
Livernoisyard, In regard to education, I was referring to the entire state. You need to read up more on transportation if you don't understand the basics of it yet. The mobilization of human capital in an economic system is what makes an efficient economic system in the first place. It creates the market. If you can't move your people, and for that matter your guests (tourists/travelers) then you're not attracting economic development to your system. Therefore, job creation and potential company location is turned off. Transportation is vital in Detroit's (and vacinity) economic funk. Plus, building, running, and maintaining a transportation system that generates a progressive economy creates jobs and is a worthwhile investment. What's too bad is that people fall for the fallacies that, "Oh, Metro Detroit is spread too thin." Or "Oh, nobody will ride mass transit." That's not true, but some people just can't seem to be convinced. And that's a problem when it starts with your local regional governing body. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1795 Registered: 10-2004 |
Duh! Detroit is broke, so it cannot assess the necessary taxes in order to pay for 40% of the matching capital costs for building anything, really. In addition, Detroit cannot look to the state for much assistance because it too is strapped due to inadequate tax revenues itself. Ergo, there is no ready source of funding for mass transit that is more than bus oriented--and even that is not cheap to expand and operate. It's not about whether people will ride rail transit or not. It won't happen anytime soon (within a decade or so--probably never) because building such a system would surely instantly accelerate Detroit's inevitable receivership prospects). Detroiters cannot use the typical "spoiled brat tantrum" routine by crying about not getting a train set just because "Billy in the next city" has one. "Billy's" parents are not broke and living off welfare and expensive debt bonding as Detroit is. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 25, 2006) | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 146 Registered: 04-2006 |
Duh? Ok. Transportation is not a city vs city thing. It's region vs region...and ultimately a nationwide committment. You don't have to explain transportation planning to me, especially by using simple-minded analogies. I work in the field. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1884 Registered: 07-2004 |
Since the talk has now become about transportation here is something to read. Keep in mind this was written several years ago but it still has merit. http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_c i.cfm?knlgAreaID=141&subsecID= 299&contentID=2119 | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 210 Registered: 02-2006 |
None of this matters. We love driving and we love driving alone. I think most people around here would prefer to sit in traffic over riding a bus or train to and from work. We love being able to make this or that stop on the way home and not have to worry about catching another bus or the next train. Isn't it obvious that people don't ride the bus enough for the system to pay for itself? What would be different about a rail system? What happened to the commuter train that ran parallel to Woodward? THE CAR!!!! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1796 Registered: 10-2004 |
"I work in the field." If you really are doing anything meaningful in the field, you surely should know by now that few, if any, regional big-wigs are going to respond to any poutings about not getting a train set for a decade or so of Christmases. They're all Ebenezers in that regard. Bah! Humbug, to you! | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 102 Registered: 03-2005 |
Review the article in 'FastCompany' magazine It places metro Detroit in the beginning phase of 'Rise of the Aerotropolis' - by Greg Lindsay | 2006-07-01 http://www.fastcompany.com/mag azine/107/aerotropolis.html . . . "In January, Kasarda made a similar pitch to another hard-bitten city: Detroit. He had been asked to make his usual stump speech for a group of 60 or so University of Michigan architecture students who were about to undergo an annual urban-planning exercise known as a "charrette." Held every year by the dean of Michigan's architecture school, each charrette contemplates a different aspect of Detroit's ongoing attempt at urban renewal--which makes for plenty of ground to cover." "This year's installment opened with the possibility of a Detroit aerotropolis as its premise. Nearly unique among major U.S. cities, Detroit has 25,000 acres of woods and open fields surrounding its main airport, a hub for Northwest Airlines. Just seven miles to the west--a straight shot along I-94--is a second, smaller airport, Willow Run, which caters to the chartered cargo and corporate jets of the Big Three automakers and their assorted suppliers. If one were to link the airfields with the highway, and with mass transit stretching to downtown Detroit, the spine for an aerotropolis would be in place.". . . | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 147 Registered: 04-2006 |
In regard to transportation, the fact of the matter remains and will always be that Detroit cannot compete in a globalizing economy without a public transportation system that is unbias to the automobile. While other cities, no matter of size, importance, stature, economic diversity, etc... prove to emerge as competitive regions through progressive public transportation initiatives, the citizens of Metropolitan Detroit are content allowing their inactivity to pass over due to the fact that our economy is in a slump. To me, that's unacceptable and lazy. Metro Detroit lacks leadership and positive stubbornness and settles with less-than due to its inferiority complex. These things cost money, no doubt. So does any investment. The origination of this thread addresses the economic slump. Our economy is not going to get better by the do-nothing method and watching other regions grow. It also will not improve by expanding and widening an already crumbling road infrastructure. Diversity is key. Individualism is not. The reasons studied, given, and proven as to why SE Michigan cannot compete into the future should be elementary by now. Supposedly, the majority are having a hard time getting past the thought that 5 million other people live in and contribute to this economic system as well. When that happens, it's every man for himself, survival of the fittest. And as we all should also know by now, the middle class is being threatened. You either adapt to become rich and elite at the top or you die with the majority at the bottom. Which has become more apparent? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 418 Registered: 04-2006 |
I could not agree more Rocket-city. We need a diverse transportation system to help with congestion, improve our economy, and address quality of life issues. We need to invest more in transit. This is true for everything from long-haul intercity connections to improved para-transit service for the elderly and disabled. We need to be able to get people who cannot afford (or who should not drive due to age or medical conditions) places with some level of independence. We need to invest in our sidewalks and bicycle paths to ensure that people can get places safely without a personal vehicle using energy to move only one or two individuals. We need to also diversify our land uses and look for opportunities to make it easier to get from neighborhood shopping centers to home without cars. In many parts of our region (and this can be said of most of the United States), we developed without regard to the pedestrian or making an easy pathway between housing and neighborhood shopping (how many have noticed that walls exist in many places that separate the homes from businesses?). In the case of Wonderland, the mall was developed with pedestrian connections to the side streets to help make it easy for those who live near the center to walk there. The new 'mall' is being designed to be an open-air walking place similar to Meadowbrook or Fountain Walk. You would think that this sort of development would keep these openings, but they are berm-ing the area and turning the mall to face the opposite direction! We can do wonders for our local economy simply though rethinking transportation and land use decisions. Wise and prudent decisions will make this area competitive. We are still the leading point of trade between Canada and the US (and between US and Mexico). I hope that we can have a collective vision that will strengthen this area and make it attractive for industry and commerce once again. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1797 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sheesh! People who have no money of their own wanting to **invest** in rapid transit. BTW, invest is bureaucratese for spending taxpayers' money. Been there, seen that! Detroit has a well-publicized track record of inept academic achievement dating back three or four decades. And it'll take a couple of decades of hard effort (which hasn't started or even bottomed out yet) in order to turn that notion around. Only some Detroiters are living in a vacuum, it seems. Others outside Metro Detroit know about this. Detroit's education is on a par with third-world nations. Some ancient railroad history: My home town for twenty-seven years--the People's Republic of Madison--planned during the 1850s to turn itself into the railroad hub of the upper Midwest. So it took out five bonds from Eastern banks in order to effect this. The Panic (market crash) of 1857/1858 caused Madison (Wisconsin's state capital) to default on those bonds. Madison went bankrupt and was under state receivership for decades. The course that some lamebrains on DY (and some even claim to be "working in that field," whoopy!) plan for Detroit runs parallel to Madison's folly of fifteen decades ago. But it ain't gonna happen here because few politicians are that idiotic enough to bet the farm in Detroit for some stupid boondoggles which haven't a prayer of succeeding. Dream on (and join a pot-smoking circle while you're at it). | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 104 Registered: 03-2005 |
Must we resort to name calling here? Yes I am also a proponent of mass transit. As I am sure that this fact has already been alluded to in earlier threads....mass transit and street cars worked for earlier generations in Detroit. The forward thinking megalopolis around the word are using mass transit with hubs at the airports as noted above in the article 'Rise of the Aerotropolis' - by Greg Lindsay. | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 148 Registered: 04-2006 |
So, what's your point in discussing here, Livernois yard if all you're going to do is lash out personal attacks when people have differing ways of thinking than your own? You seem to have all the answers, so happily invest in your highways and be happy paying for them all by yourself (along with the 7 million other Michiganders left living in the state in 30 years). DetroitPlanner and myself have introduced the way we feel about the economy here, so there's really nothing more to say. Besides, it seems the only worth to your discussion is looking for a place to insert offenses. There are more important discussions on DT to participate on, so I'm wrapping up my involvement with this one. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 419 Registered: 04-2006 |
Madison as a railroad hub??? Maybe compared to Sun Prairie and Staughton! What were they smoking? Madison had a land grant university and was the state capitol, trains were needed to bring students and politicos to town. I could never see it overtaking Minn/St Paul, Chicago, or even Milwaukee. You need two things to be a hub location on lines (granted the lakes around madison would force some interesting alignments, and create what appears to be hubs), and something to trade. Madison was a people destination on the railroad. One could argue that their market was the university and the capitol, but the transport of people is not as lucrative as cars, coal, even trash! | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 48 Registered: 06-2005 |
I dont want to seem negative, but having mass transit would be great, if the people in the suburbs would use it to come downtown. Every person I know north of 8 mile say they would never go downtown anymore. I think detroit needs to adress this problem and make downtown a place where people want to come too. (I know its doing better but its not there yet). Work on those problems then you can start discussing mass transit. Mass transit is great, but if nobody would use it, its not worth a crap and a big waste of money (that Michigan/Detroit doesnt have). I havent been there in quite a while (approx 10 years) and I only know what my friends tell me and what I hear on this forum so keep that in mind before jumping down my throat for this opinion. Thanks, Still motowner at heart! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1800 Registered: 10-2004 |
"...and was the state capitol..." Actually, Madison is the state capitAl and has the state capitOl building. Madison's train-hub mindset was derived from its (Erie) canal days. Because Madison is located on the site of the pre-glacial Wisconsin River, it still has numerous post-glacial lakes and the Yahara River connecting them to the Rock River south into Illinois and eventually to the Mississippi River. Until the railroads during the 1840s dashed a nationwide series of canal building, that mindset was still present during the 1850s when Madison embarked on its own empire building, which led to its bankruptcy. Any such transit endeavors would surely have a similar effect upon Metro Detroit. Having old buildings and available land to build upon is present all over the country not undergoing booms themselves (most of the North East of the US). It's incredible to me that some would believe (much like it's their "religion") that Detroit is similarly poised for its revival. All the downtown development from the 1950s onward (from Cobo to the present) is miniscule compared to cities that have experienced real growth since that time. So, the rapid-transit linchpin, of course, only to rapid transit backers, would put Detroit on a rapid, surefire collision path to its own bankruptcy. Come on, Billie [in the DTW thread]! A commuter rail corridor and two light rail corridors with two more to follow. This is from somebody who claims to be "working in the field!" Detroit's situation is dire and without much, if any, hope of turning around, especially considering that most of its problems, were internally caused and are still being created using the same self-destructive mindsets as before. In the main, Detroiters don't see much value in their educating themselves, even in the K-12 area. A significant percentage are unwed mothers living on welfare and are indirectly causing the majority of the region's crime problems. Lousy teachers and administrators, corrupt politicians and their cronies feeding at the public troughs. Not much of a work ethic, etc. A sane, unbiased, knowledgeable observer could go on and on because most outsiders can instantly spot Detroit's warts. That's why most investors will look elsewhere for their plans. Practically the entire country outside of Ohio and Michigan have acute skilled labor shortages and their regions are booming. Why would any meaningful businesses come to Detroit, outside of stiff subsidies from taxpayers? (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 26, 2006) | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 151 Registered: 04-2006 |
Go ask Peter Zeiler of the DEGC and he will tell you. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1925 Registered: 07-2004 |
When downtown Detroit was the shopping hub for all of Metro Detroit, the trolleys and streetcars were needed. Since downtown is no longer the shopping hub, streetcars, trolleys, or light rail aren't needed. Why waste billions of dollars building a light rail system for a region that won't use it? Who on this forum are willing to walk blocks from your home to catch a train that will make numerous stops before it gets to your destination? I know I'm not and I think there in lies the problem of mass transit for Michigan. We here have gotten used to controlling our own transportation and don't want to rely on public transportation. However, for mass transit to have any chance of working in Southeast Michigan, you've got to have lines that are express lines that get people in the suburbs to downtown Detroit or wherever without any stops. If there was a Woodward line of light rail that I could take that starts in Birminham or Royal Oak and I lived in Troy and worked in downtown Detroit, then catching that line would make sence for me. I save money on gas and I get to work just as quickly as I would if I drove my car. Also, using this same light rail express line to go to Tigers or Lions games would also make sense. Having a "Park & Ride" set up with light rail express lines along the major streets of Detroit: Woodward, Gratiot, Grand River, Michigan, and Jefferson might be something that people would use. Anything else is just a waste of time. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 420 Registered: 04-2006 |
If you notice LY I spelt it correctly the second mention of the capitol I used WAS because State Capitols CHANGE over time. Detroit was the State Capitol of Michigan around that time, and Kingston was the State Capitol of New York around that time as well. I did a search of subject matter before posting, I could not find much on bonds of 1850. I did however find that U of W's first class graduated two people in 1854. This is part of the Madison Folly. No one was out there in 1850! Trying to compare these two problems are silly. I've never once stated which mode I prefer for transit, yet I am labeled some sort of nut-job in your mind. You are only paying 4 cents a gallon more for gasoline out of the state sales tax towards the transportation system. Where does the money to operate transit come from under these conditions LY? You are not being overtaxed. In fact those who live near transit lines will find that their property values will increase with an improvement in service. You will also be able to help the poor and the disabled, which is probably the most important things that we as a society can do to get out of this economic funk. The poor need to get to jobs. The elderly and handicapped need a form in independence so that those in the workforce, can work! We need to address congestion issues in ways that do not costs 100's of millions in roght-of-way costs (taking valuable real estate off the market forever) to widen all roads to 8 lanes. We cannot also afford to operate a road system of such size considering the gas tax has only gone up four cents a gallon in 26 years. The population is getting more elderly every day, this HAS to be addressed, we need to make both the roads safer, improve pedestrian networks, and invest in transit. This money has to come from somewhere. In most states with large urban areas there are general sales taxes that help pay for transportation. We traded our sales taxes for a reduction in real estate taxes years ago with proposal A. We don't have that option here. The reality is that we need to change our attitudes about funding transportation or else we will always be thinking that the tail wags the dog when it comes to our local economy. Transit does also need to be re-visted in terms of its fare-box revenues. More needs to be done to increase these, be that an increase in fare, or an organized effort to make sure that buses are maximized. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1801 Registered: 10-2004 |
Start here: Madison insolvency | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 21 Registered: 05-2006 |
Please. Stop the madness with these 1800’s Madison railroad stories! If you want to read a well-thought out (and relevant!) argument against Detroit transit, read Ray’s recent post of the DTW thread. Regardless, rail transit provides a great alternative for getting through town, especially for those of limited means or mobility. It helps ease traffic on roads, creates strong connections with downtown and the rest of Detroit and the surrounding suburbs…Ok, this is well-covered territory. But, it is only the start: Development follows these rail lines, as people find them desirable to locate near them for both for work and for living. Large companies and their employees will see it as a benefit to being downtown, smaller businesses will see it as a benefit further out along the line, and developers will see it as a good investment for building housing along the line near the stations. As condos and stores go in and more people populate the areas along the line, you will see more people buying the existing housing stock in the surrounding neighborhoods. Homes get renovated, more people live and work in Detroit, more taxes and revenue get paid to the city. With more people invested in the neighborhoods, there are more eyes on the street, and crime goes down. This helps the Police, who can start to focus on areas that really need it. Do you see a pattern here? It may seem like it’s moving at a glacial pace while it’s happening, but if you check back after 5, 10, 20 years, you really start seeing dramatic improvements. There a LOT of people nationwide who are interested in buying old homes and fixing them up. Unfortunately for a lot of people just starting out, the market has priced them out of inner city neighborhoods in Chicago, Portland, Seattle, Denver… but Detroit is pretty damn affordable. Look at how expensive city-like suburbs like Birmingham and Plymouth are. See all of the condos getting built in Royal Oak? Give people a reason to invest in Detroit’s market, and they will. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1802 Registered: 10-2004 |
Real-life events--otherwise known as history--are more relevant than moronic justifications for unrealizable transit boondoggles which have dubious worth. If you rail-transit fans ever expect to be taken seriously, first specifically explain where the money will ever come from. And another small item: Just how much would it cost? So many transit "experts" on DY, yet so few facts and not any sensible justifications for transit's bringing in business and jobs. Mostly hopes and wishes. The main reason that rapid transit is DOA for Detroit is the utter silence of it outside of a internet forum or two. No politicos are stomping for it except as something that might be nice to have. But there's no ground swell of support for rapid transit from serious officials because they know it's not in the cards as to financing it. | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2006 |
in regards to the reliability discussion- 1st car- 1987 buick riviara 307 4bbl 4 speed frt wheel drive 160,000 original miles ac still worked burned a quart between oil changes but i crashes that one 2nd car 1987 buick lesabre 280,000 miles trans finally quit 3rd car 1986 taurus biggest pos ever but sold it at 230,000 miles still running 4th 1992 park avenue full loaded donated at 320,000 original miles because of rusted undercarriage did not burn a drop of oil 5th 1995 quad 4 grand am with 3speed still going at 150,000 domestic cars are as good or not better when you compare mid level and up about $19,000+ now up until recently the big 3 didi not care about their econo-offerings | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1077 Registered: 12-2005 |
Here's a surprisingly optimistic column (although predicting a comeback as late as 2013): RON DZWONKOWSKI: Lakes states will rebound. I can attest that Phoenix has already suffered a surprising series of infrastructure problems (gasoline, water, electric). (Message edited by Jimaz on November 26, 2006) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 422 Registered: 04-2006 |
I read your piece of journalism regarding the taxpayer's revolt. Nice magazine, its probably Madison's version of 'Hour Detroit'. I'd love to see the fashion spread and recipies. I saw nothing in there about it having to do with a rail hub, only a single line invested in brand new technology. You are missing my points entirely, mass transit does not need rail, only certain modes of mass transit do. I for one would be happy with improving the connectivity to the current bus system and along major routes put in GPS enabled light timing so that buses can move faster than the traffic around them. This would shave probably a half hour off of a crosstown trip (Think Warren Ave, Woodward, Michigan, and Telegraph). This is L. Brooks vision for transit, and I feel that it has a lot of merit. GPS enabled lights would also aide in getting emergency vehicles to the scene faster. Now this is not a cool sexy transit system to most, but it will allow those pressed for time and long commutes the ability to get out of their cars. http://www.its.umn.edu/sensor/ 2006/summer/signalPriority.htm l Therefore you get more bang for your investment buck. Faster transit, fewer cars, and quicker response times. I don't know about you but if I never took the bus, and need a fire truck or an ambulance I'd support this system. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on November 26, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1804 Registered: 10-2004 |
There's a large coffee-table book about the history of Madison up to 1920 which several thousands of Madisonians have. It goes into detail about the five defaulted railroad bonds that caused the new city to go bankrupt, caused the city to lose almost half its population because of its insolvency, and caused Madison to be under the thumb of the state in receivership for a few decades. Perhaps, somebody you know from Madison has that book. Anybody who thinks something similar to that cannot happen to Detroit is not being very realistic. There's little love for Detroit throughout the state, not just some suburbs. Being under receivership would pretty much eliminate the welfare class in Detroit--as 48 other states have already done. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 26, 2006) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1231 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hey Beavis... in all of those cars you mentioned, did you observe any of the following? -- loose trim pieces or trim just falling off? -- dash lights (check engine, parking brake on, etc.) coming on for no reason? -- sticking door handles? -- rattling windows? -- leaks between weatherstripping and windshield? -- knobs falling off? -- non-working (or sticking needles in) gauges or dash clock? -- rear window wiper motor failure? -- front brakes wearing out prematurely? -- non-working parking brakes? -- hood not closing properly? -- leaky heater core? -- plastic body trim warping and not allowing a door to close properly? -- power window failure? -- electrical short in the system that allows battery to drain? -- upholstery rips/tears occurring under 100,000 miles? I'll bet you saw these or similar problems, but wrote them off as typical and just figured that's "what comes with the territory" when you buy a car. You probably put up with such things, thinking they're normal. Guess what? Such quality issues with a motor vehicle are UNACCEPTABLE. Absolutely unacceptable. I have seen ALL of these problems (and more) in the American cars I have owned, and I have been driving for 30-plus years. I have owned more than 20 cars, from a 1957 model to a 2001 model. All were American-made. Some were better than others, but all had annoying little problems that indicated indifferent to poor build quality. It's NOT just "a run of bad luck." I don't care how many thousands of miles a car simply "runs" for. I will not tolerate quality control problems any more from the US automakers. I want a car that maintains a reasonable reliability of ALL of its systems and components well past 120,000 miles. Until the Big Two And A Half address such issues, they will keep losing customers. Fix the US-made automotive product... make it better and more fuel efficient. And diversify the economy so Michigan is not completely dependent on one industry. Those two points are the keys to economic recovery. | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2006 |
alright fury13 you've shown respect to me even though the theme of this comment seems to be you are moron shut up. so I will do the same in my counter argument. i'm just curious do you have any automotive service record? 1st of all could you break down what percent of these cars were gm/ford/chrysler? 2nd a portion of these problems are michigan related not just domestic our state has very extreme climate -20f in the winter +95f in summer combined with massive salt induction in the winter this is absolute hell on adhesives plastics and exposed metal-warping/falling off trim and plastic if you ever looked at a parking brake the tecnology is from the 1920s if you dont use it you lose it the cable rusts to the crappy casing and breaks when finally pulled on after no use for 120,000 miles. 3rd- for every one except for battery drain these problems did not stop you from getting from point a to point b. now I will go over each one and then see what you have to say.......... 1. dash lights probably a ford or low end gm (ford liked to use di-electric grease) this is all well and good when new but this stuff self-destructs at 60,000 miles and shorts out anything . or this was in a low-end gm they had problems due to a very early attempt at globalization any motor in the '80s that was below 2.2 liters was isuzu born slash co-developed. 2 sticking door problems- very common an cheap 4 door saturns or large gm suvs this is due to cheap products and lack of use my favorite is old gm w bodys grand prix, regal, lumina, achieva they tried to be cool by mounting the door handle vertically so everytime this one of a kind part broke it was available dealer only at $80 a pop 3 knobs falling off IS IT REALLY TOO MUCH TROUBLE TO FIND GLUE? 4 gauges- this has also been fixed in newer cars up until 96 or so it was a crappy cable with a gear on the end (this system has also been around since the beginning of time) if not analog see above ford wiring explanation 5 wiper motor this had to be a explorer this is what happens when penny pinching to keep up with japan cheap labor goes to far the amount of times the motor would be used was grossly underestamated so the cheapest smallest motor possible was used. 6 leaky heater core 99,998 times out of a 100,000 this due to lack of maintenence even manuals will tell you -may differ depending on use it does'nt hurt to pop the hood and take a look if the carhad less than 25,000miles than it was mechanical failure 6 battery drain very common in gm w-bodies and older pontiacs usually remidied by cleaning battery and main grounds also see above ford explanation 7 upholstery rips this is to vague what kind of upholstery would be helpful any way its 3:30 and I have to be up at 6:45 to sand 1500sq | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1232 Registered: 10-2003 |
Beavis, in no way am I saying "shut up, moron." But look, you're making excuses for manufacturing flaws. I shouldn't HAVE to have an "automotive service record," if by that you mean, do I work on my cars? (The answer is yes, I have in the past... routine maintenance like oil changes and slightly more complicated things like brake jobs and changing out water pumps. Currently, I have all of those things done by my local mechanic, because I do not choose to spend my spare time -- whatever THAT is -- working on my cars.) If I keep up on scheduled maintenance and forecasted repairs like alignments and brake jobs, I should be able to expect my cars to hold up (all systems intact) for well over 120,000 - 140,000 miles. I don't think that expectation is unreasonable. Michigan climate change is no excuse for component failures. The automakers should build the cars robust enough to withstand temperature/climate changes. After all, Michigan is not even as severe, weather-wise, as upper Minnesota or Alaska. And they drive cars in those places, too. Electrics should be shielded from corrosive forces. Bodies should be built so that they won't rust out. Bottom line: cars should be constructed tough enough to handle ALL kinds of weather. Parking brakes are based on '20s technology and have crappy casings? Gee, I guess it's time that Detroit automakers updated their technology on that item, then. They've only had about 70 years to work on it... You say that dash lights commonly act up on "low-end" GM and Ford products around 60,000 miles. Why? Again, that's unacceptable. Buying a low-priced car shouldn't mean you get to expect poor quality. Sticking doors are due to using cheap materials? Well, WHY IN THE HELL did they use cheap materials? (To keep costs down? OK, fine. But when those parts break, they lose potential repeat customers.) Knobs falling off... YES, it IS too much trouble to find glue. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO GLUE THEM. I should be able to expect them to STAY ON. Build the car the right way in the first place, dammit! Gauges... crappy cables, you say... OK, so why didn't some smart American engineer come up with a better way? Wiper motor going bad... NO, it was a Jeep Cherokee, not an Explorer. And if they indeed use the "cheapest, smallest motor," then, gee, they should change that, shouldn't they? Quit pinching pennies. People will pay for quality (but labor costs need to come down, too, to keep prices affordable). The heater core (yes, I flush my cooling systems) and battery drainage issues (I know about cleaning battery terminals... I'm talking about some short deep in the system) happened again and again over the years. Upholstery? Cloth, leather, vinyl. They all ripped prematurely (around 100,000 miles). I have owned products from all three current American automakers (plus AMC). I have owned cars with nameplates that no longer exist (DeSoto, Edsel, Plymouth). Cars from the '50s and early '60s seemed less troublesome (although they rusted like hell). Cars built in the '80s were the worst. Things have improved a bit since then, but not enough for me. Your post reflects the attitude that American consumers should expect to deal with a few glitches for the "privilege" of buying a US-branded car. To that, I simply say NO. No more. I just ordered my first Japanese car. If it functions as promised, it will deliver around 33-37 mpg and will last (with routine maintenance) well past 150,000 miles. We'll see. (Message edited by Fury13 on November 27, 2006) | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10909 Registered: 10-2003 |
Perhaps now you should change your handle to "Riceboy13." | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1234 Registered: 10-2003 |
Naaah, nostalgia has its place. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2006 |
And perhaps you should change you handle to "Superslur." (Message edited by dds on November 27, 2006) | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2006 |
back from work early! alright here we go again...... I am sorry to disapoint you but the cable thing is universal you will find the same system on your japanese car. the gauge thing was fixed in the mid nineties when everthing went digital-no more speedo cables. I was just curious about your automotive background because whether i like it or not i am neck deep in it. anyways I didn't get to finish last night. so here where I agree with you- brakes I just don't get it myself the corvette has had 4-wheel disk with 4 piston calipers since 1965! why none of this trickled down sooner I don't know. Windows not working is just not acceptable and very annoying I've delt with this before. so in all fairness here is some ammo for future arguments- new zo6 vette- gms premium sports car $80,000 has the roof panel fly off at high speeds due to inferior adhesive (coupe only) 99-02 trailblazer- tops of pistons would crack and rattle around engine (thank you isuzu) there is a official recall on this! 05 malibu- problems with new electric power steering was traced back to the mental juggernauts on the line lifting a 30lb+ part by the wiring harness! so yes I am making excuses because these are mass production problems not just american problems and they don't bother me that much now onto japan- their cars did'nt really improve till about 7 years ago my dad had a 82 accord and had to replace the rear floorboards TWICE due to rust. every 80's honda i have seen runs till 300,000 but the rings are shot at 180,000 causing the car to burn 2qts of oil a week my brother had a 92 pathfinder with horrible rust issues and the main trans seal blew TWICE nothing like 20 hrs in labor for a $8 part to top it off while american cars had tuned port injection this nissan was about technically compatible to my 85 307v-8 miles of vacuum hose and a distributor with vacuum advance not to mention all those cool gauges with no numbers they might as well just have good and bad lights. oh and that $8 part was special order only of course so in short good luck with japan-o-turd I'm not giving up on the home team yet | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1889 Registered: 07-2004 |
Riceboy13?? Japan-o turd?? and we are not to think you are moronic because?? In the meantime the Asians continue to mop the domestic asses all over the place.The good news is things are improving.But not because of idiotic sentiments like those expressed here but by auto co managers who might finally be getting the idea from their Asian counterparts. | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2006 |
wow you put me in my place. so how is one rash generalization going to fix anything? if things were that simple how come gm is #2 in china for 2006? (volkswagen is # 1) if your toyotas and hondas are so fucking great how come they aren't # 1&2???!!! if everything asian is so fucking great then why don't you still see geos on the road? if everything asian is so great why has mitsubishi stuggled for years despite whoring its motors to chrysler and ford for years now? please fix your cranial rectal inversion before posting again | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10917 Registered: 10-2003 |
Toyota recalls double
http://cbs4boston.com/recalls/ local_story_336071923.html Mitsubishi quality cover up
http://www.drive.com.au/Editor ial/ArticleDetail.aspx?Article ID=1805&vf=1 Toyota investigated by government in regards to cover ups
Honda's quality issues
As the import companies increase production, their quality in turn has fallen off. It's a trend that in all honesty will likely continue, as higher production numbers make it much more difficult to maintain quality. It's what was responsible for quality issues for so long within the big 3. However, those days are in the past and in most every area American auto makers are now on par with their foreign competitors. It gets old listening to people pound their chest claiming how much better the import cars are, all the while I keep reading about their number of recalls going up every year. The recalls range from electrical issues that may cause fires, safety issues with air bags, and even powertrain problems. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1890 Registered: 07-2004 |
Sorry, your latest post proves beyond any doubt that you are completely open to discourse and willing to debate as most reasonable adults would. And since you are so knowledgeable of the industry tell us how Toyota's offer buy out of all their employees is going_ Honda they are doing the same right? How about Ford and GM they are kicking Toyota's ass all over the place arent't they? All one need do is look at the record profits the domestics are doing and the asian co's should probably just fold up. Why I am writing this escapes me because trying to reason with a shit brained moronic xenophobic racist is fairly hopeless_ I suppose those cats that murdered Vincent Chin are your heroes huh? | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 384 Registered: 12-2003 |
All this from a discussion about cars.....and we wonder why nothing gets accomplished in Washington DC, let alone the Coleman Young Building for that matter. "Who is shocking my chair!?"  | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 17 Registered: 08-2006 |
^you got served!!! sport you rock! and by the way gm is kicking toyotas ass in china on a side note- www.teslamotors.com this seems far more sensible than a hybrid they basically fix what was wrong with the exige- the toyota engine also gm holds a controlling interest in lotus | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10918 Registered: 10-2003 |
I hear you can get your meds for cheap in Windsor. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 386 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tuesday, August 30, 2005 General Motors recalling 800,000 pickups, SUVs
http://www.detnews.com/2005/au tosinsider/0508/30/01-297873.h tm Thursday October 26, 2006 Chrysler losses reflect declining fortunes of US car industry
1931702%2C00.html,http://www.g uardian.co.uk/cars/story/0,,19 31702,00.html Published: 07.12.2004 05:38 Why FORD is losing Market Share
http://www.yeald.com/Yeald/a/3 3101/why_ford_is_losing_market _share.html This works both ways... | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 387 Registered: 12-2003 |
The last quote especially, these all reveal that we live in a global economy now and no matter how much USA Pride you carry you are buying a global product. Just because a company has a HQ on US soil hardly makes it American. If they have a majority of their payroll over seas then I would count them as a product from that country which garners all of that payroll tax. Even though Toyota execs don't live in Bloomfield Hills or dine in downtown Birmingham doen't mean that their respective companies aren't American. Go down to Kentucky or even Flat Rock where they make "Japanese" cars and tell those workers why you won't purchase a foreign product. Reasons like these are why our area is still the armpit of the midwest. Oh its sad how I long for Cleveland... | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10919 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm not saying it doesn't worth both ways. I'm just sick and tired of hearing this shit that the import companies offer much higher quality cars that seldom have any problems. The numbers don't lie, EVERY manufacturer, foreign or domestic, has been having a growing number of recalls, with the import companies finally catching up as their production numbers have caught up. I've rode in foreign cars with the creaks, rattles, and problems that are getting attributed to only domestic cars on this thread. It's not the quality, it's the damn roads in this region. You pound a car through the pot holes we have here day in and day out and sooner or later, something is gonna loosen up. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2122 Registered: 12-2004 |
Yes, saving money is just a fad. No one really wants to do it. It's all a marketing ploy cooked up by left-wing Hollywood elitists.  | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 80 Registered: 02-2004 |
Is it possible that Supersport is just bitter because he worked for a Japanese supplier and was laid off? I am not sure how you working for your perceived enemy fits into your buy American mantra but I am sure you will twist something entertaining up for us. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1085 Registered: 12-2005 |
I haven't found any discussion here about One D offers hope for regional solutions. Does One D have a website? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1086 Registered: 12-2005 |
More: Shed the cynicism; One D could spell different Detroit. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1203 Registered: 11-2003 |
Can we please stop arguing about the quality and reliability of domestic vs japanese cars? I just wasted 10 minutes reading all those posts and they aren't very relevant to the original purpose of the thread. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10926 Registered: 10-2003 |
Perhaps the fact that I worked for a Japanese company and had to service over 8,000 vehicles because of poor quality parts made in Japan is part of the reason. I saw first hand the number of quality issues the Japanese have, as well as the reasons why. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2006 |
But according to this article, for the first time ever, Japanese automakers produced more cars, with local parts, outside of Japan... Including, plants in the USA. Carmakers of Japan build more overseas | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1235 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Can we please stop arguing about the quality and reliability of domestic vs japanese cars? I just wasted 10 minutes reading all those posts and they aren't very relevant to the original purpose of the thread." The posts are very relevant to the purpose of the thread. The "economic funk" in Michigan can be directly attributed to the doldrums of the domestic auto industry, as Michigan's fortunes hinge on the health of that single industry. It follows that if there are quality control problems with the overall US automotive product, less US-made vehicles will sell, and that our economy will suffer. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2337 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry Fnemecek, Buying a Hybrid will not save you any money. It will save fuel, but not enough to make up for the higher entry price. According to consumer reports most of these vehicles will require 5+ years to recoup the higher price of the hybrid system. This is even with their hybrid friendly future fuel price speculation. They used a fuel price of $6 a gallon by 2012. Most people who buy new cars don't keep them for 5 years. http://www.consumerreports.org /cro/cars/new-cars/high-cost-o f-hybrid-vehicles-406/overview /index.htm Yes, you can be environmentally conscious. Don't however, con yourself into believing a hybrid will save you money. All you've done is put your money in a different company's pocket. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1826 Registered: 10-2004 |
And just what might a used hybrid sell for when that depleted battery has to be replaced? It's not a cheap item now, but it might be whenever that problem needs to be addressed. |
