  Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Over the last couple of weeks I have been reading some of the discussions relating to Detroit, its problems and its virtues and I'm amazed at the passion and insight that has been exhibited. Some of you may share the same love-hate relationship with Detroit that I have, with fond memories of growing up in safe, vibrant neighborhoods and now lamenting the loss of everything that makes a city livable, interesting, diverse and exciting. Although the Fabulous Ruins of Detroit provides a fascinating look at the skeleton of what was once a vibrant city, I take some exception to the use of the word "fabulous". "Tragic" seems more appropriate here. Today we have a crisis of monumental proportions that will require the sustained efforts of its residents, government and business leaders to put this region back in order so that it can sustain itself and become a desirable location for those wishing to invest and live in a healthy and culturally diverse community. In all metropolitan areas , it is the central city that is the engine concentrating economic, social, recreational and artistic energies. Detroit, by virtue of decades of neglect and uninspired leadership, coupled with racism and the isolation of the affluent has withered into an economically desperate and physically decimated city. Make no mistake. The city and its suburbs are mutually dependent upon each other for their economic and social suvival. If Detroit fails, the fallout will effect every business and resident in the region. Actually, most people don't really make unrealistic demands of their government. For the most part, they want their homes to be located in safe neighborhoods with good shopping alternatives, decent schools and well maintained services and they want responsive (and responsible) elected officials who know what their needs are and who can advocate for them. Metropolitan Detroit's leadership has failed its citizens by refusing to recognize that it takes regional solutions to solve its problems. Specifically, I believe that many factors have brought this city into its present predicament. An incomplete list of them would include the following: 1. An economic base exists which is historically over-dependent upon manufacturing in one heavy industry. There is not enough diversity to sustain the local economy during down cycles. 2. The physical expansion of the city, over the decades, has been amorphous and uncontrolled, intermingling factories with homes and not concentrating commercial growth into centers with which communities might be identified. 3. An over abundance of strip commercial developments which are strung out along the major arteries have now become blighted eyesores and can no longer be supported by the city's residents. 4. The elimination of any viable means of mass transportation and the concurrent construction of the freeways has fed suburban development and destroyed much of the urban fabric without creating strong mixed-use cores. 5. There has be a lack of vision for making the city aesthetically attractive. The few neighborhoods with amenities that do exist have proven their worth by retaining their value and encouraging rejuvenation (e.g. N. Rosedale Park, Palmer Woods, Boston-Edison). 6. There has been a disregard for preserving the city's historically significant structures. It is important for societies to maintain tangible links to their past cultural and civic accomplishments. 7. The prevalence of guns and drugs make this city one of the nation's most dangerous. We should not feel that a drop in ranking of any violent crime from first to second, or third, or sixth is acceptable. It is not. 8. There has been an enormous out-migration of residents of all races who can afford to relocate into safer, more pleasant neighborhoods. This has placed extreme burdens upon the city to provide basic services and upon the school system given that its revenues are dependent upon enrollment numbers. Although the fates of the city and the schools are inexorably entwined, I believe that the lack of identity, amenities, services and security within the city and not the caliber or dedication of the teachers are the principle causes of the exodus to the suburbs. However, having said that, I also believe that the district's administrators have been unresponsive to the needs of its students, parents and teachers. This is a spiral that must stop if the city and the district are to regain the respect and support of the citizens of Detroit. 9. Detroit has gone from being respected as a powerhouse of industrial production to a pathetic shell, the ruins of which, attract the attention of filmmakers and photographers. What an image! This is an urban tragedy of immense proportions. The millions of dollars which were spent on cosmetic primping for the Superbowl was patently absurd given Detroit's huge structural deficiencies and its inability to pay for the basic services that it residents require. How should Detroit reinvent itself? | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 197 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.40.195.233 |
Here are some things that detroit should do (some of which it's doing now): (1) Preserve (i.e. mothball) / if not restore remaining historic buildings... (2) develop a high-speed rail line from Detroit to Ann Arbor, as well as from downtown detroit up woodward through ferndale and royal oak. (3) Offer financial incentives for the remaining residents in the 80% vacant parts of the far west side to move to the inner portion of the city - turning the land left behind either into an amusment park, farmland, statue garden, or even forest bike trail... (4) demolish parts of the Joe Louis Arena, moving the Red Wings to Fox Town, thus further opening up the riverfront, and making room for a Cobo Hall expansion. (5) dramatically downsize city government - including the possible sale of items such as the mayor's mansion... (6) Legalize gay marriage in michigan, and market Detroit to what would become a burgeoning gay michigan population these are active, generally non-child baring (read non-school using but school paying), taxpaying, night on the town citizens... (7) encourage bike use and walking in the city. make roads like woodward more scenic, finish the Dequender (sp?) cut, expand the riverwalk, (8) do a study, and see if there are any freeways that can be eliminated... and idle them. (9) create an easy to use land bank, and sell any city owned private land there is left. (by private i mean abandoned homes, NOT belleisle etc...) (10) create a ward system for the city council (11) put more cops on the street / install chicago style cameras? (12) further encourage CBD / Midtown / Corktown / Rosedale park / jefferson east / SW side living, concentrating the remaining population DOWNTOWN. we NEED density to be viable... it would be better to be HALF the land size if we were a dense FUN FILLED city with high rises and attractions left and right... do these things and we'd be on our way... | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1122 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.60.45.70 |
Welcome to the forum Mossman. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Thank you. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Andylinn, some of your comments are great. Your suggestion for a ward system for council speaks to the issue of empowerment. What if the entire city were subdivided into boroughs with elected presidents a la NYC? I think that what is severely lacking here is the ability of residents to identify with their own communities.If people had more direct control over their neighborhoods and if each neighborhood was able to differentiate itself from the others, I think that might give impetus to more civic involvement and subsequent improvement. I think the Detroit is too amorphous as it is If you look at other cities with well defined sub-communities like Tribeca in NYC or Marina in SF or Brighton in Boston, they are almost self sufficient.They certainly have strong identities. We have one or two here that are on the verge of being like this (E.G. Mexican Town) but I think that the city needs the formal organizational structure to encourage it. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2003 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 75.10.25.111 |
There are some good ideas going around here. Andylinn's #1-5 should be gospel truth to anyone who pays attention to Detroit--they are all enormous keys to making sure Detroit remains a CITY, and a viable one at that. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 199 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.141.144.2 |
i am a big proponant of the gay marriage one, but i know it is (unreasonably) a controversey-filled topic... | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 819 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
Mossman, I'm just happy to have someone else with a modicum of intelligence posting on this forum. Seriously though, thank you for your input. Please feel free to cull the archives for many discussions of the topics you have brought up. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 870 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 68.40.119.216 |
Andylinn for mayor. Good ideas. Lord knows we need plenty more and action on them for things to improve. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2004 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 75.10.25.111 |
I don't see how legalizing gay "unions" --they can never be called marriage to me--would help the city in the least. Thankfully we agree on the more important substance of these issues. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Wouldn't it be great if we could actually discuss these ideas with an audience of political and business leaders? However, I think that the existing governmental structure of the city is not equipped to address these problems. It would require a change in the charter which means that the state legislature would have to act. I would like to see two demonstration boroughs established to test the idea of neighborhood empowerment. Then, if successful,the concept could be adapted on a city-wide basis. In addition to the dozen or so neighborhoods I would like to see two special use districts, one for medical/research/arts (i.e. Wayne State,DMC and cultural institutions) and the other for the CBD, including all of the sports and entertainment venues. These two districts would be regional assets drawing from a statewide or regional area and could be subject to special tax regulations. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2006 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 75.10.25.111 |
^^great idea. The first special use would probably go over better on a regional basis than the second you mentioned, though. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 109 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Let's start by getting trainman to plan the mass transit. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 200 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.40.195.233 |
is there any chance we could actually do something, as a forum, for real? maybe this is crazy, but is there a chance that we, as a forum, or a smaller group of 5 or so, could write up a proposal and take it to council? i'm being serious here. consider me in. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 201 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.40.195.233 |
/\ /\ what a fitting, rabble rousing, 200th post. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 110 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Perhaps we could pick a location, say a restaraunt and have a brain- storming sesion. After whittleing down the lousy ideas, we could take further action, such as go before the council. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 203 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.40.195.233 |
just so you know, i'm totally serious about this... and i'm down to meet about it. motor city brewing works, anyone? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2090 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
Maybe you can join the guys who were going to fix up Capital park. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
As a new voice to this forum I was a bit leery of positing my radical ideas. But, I believe that the only hope of stopping the disintegration of the city is with action and not with complaints. I am amenable to the idea of meeting to discuss all of this. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1722 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.195 |
Welcome Mossman and forgive my bluntness but your idea's are anything but radical.In fact they are fairly in lockstep with the age old liberal/democrat policies that have served Detroit so well these past 3 decades. Of course we have had this discussion thru out the life of the forum.And the one thing, the one overwhelming thing that Detroit has not addressed in any real way is crime.Lip service, and puny attempts to deal with crime and a ineffective police chief all being contributing factors. None of the things you et,al envision will ever happen on a large scale until crime is drastically reduced. And nothing much will change until the city gets rid of it's bloated civil work force. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Yes, safety is probably number one on everyone's list. Solving the crime problem goes hand in hand with reducing unemployment, bettering education, increasing the tax base, etc., etc. And, as I suggested earlier, the administrative inertia against doing anything positive is tremendous. But I see other cities in this country which have, at least partially, been able to manage their problems and I always think that with some altruistic and intelligent leadership Detroit could improve. Unfortunately, the concept of "public service" has been lost by so many of the city's (and nation's) elected officials that governing effectively is a lost art. Anyway, I would enjoy meeting forum members just to talk. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1075 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
Seriously, you're going to go to the Council, who has worked so hard AGAINST Kilpatrick's push for a ward system and request they implement a ward system? You're going to go to the Council, whose members are backed and funded by churches and ask that they legalize gay marriage? You're going to go to Council and ask them to implement a land bank when the County already passed a land bank and the Detroit delegation of the Commission mostly voted "no" on it? You're going to go to the Council and ask them to do *what* to help the school system...? The schools are run by the Board of Ed who typically want nothing to do with the powerless Legislative body. And lastly, you're going to go to the council and ask them to put more police on the street? Where do you plan on finding the money in the budget for this and why on earth do you think the Council has the power to do *anything* regarding restructuring an administrative branch department? Read the charter, watch channel 10, learn a bit more about the city and then put together some ideas. You're on the right track, just going the wrong direction.  | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 204 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.141.144.2 |
no, that's not exactly what i meant - I meant drafting a proposal - about the ward system and the ward system alone, researching the facts and taking it to council - and debating the shit out of it with them. if that failed, we could get more grass roots with it. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 8 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I'm not talking about a ward system. I'm talking about breaking up the city into semi-autonimous communities with appropriate planning guidelines. Just because it has little chance of happening in this life doesn't mean that it should be dismissed. Aren't there others in the city (state) who wield influence besides hizzoner and council? We can't even be heard without backup. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1076 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
Like the 10 Clusters implemented by the City Planning Commission in order to determine how CDBG funds were distributed throughout the city? | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 9 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I'm not familiar with the 10 clusters. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1077 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
That's my point... | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2092 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
There are many agencies and organizations in the city trying to do the things you're advocating. Many of us are members of those groups. Instead of trying to create a new group to do those things, research the groups already in existence and volunteer to help them. While there are many needs in the city, there are also many ways to help. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 10 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I'm not interested in creating a new pressure group. I just wanted to talk and listen for ideas. Susanarosa, what is your point? That because I am not familiar with all of the efforts I should keep my ideas to myself? | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1078 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
That's not it at all, I find your enthusiam to be kinda sweet. However, if you guys are serious about these "let's do something" ideas, you need to do a little more research, get a little more "institutional knowledge" and figure out what is actually attainable, what has been done already and how to best reach your goals. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 3992 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.208.211.59 |
Let's DO SOMETHING because it's fuck or walk...or evolve or die I can't remember. The important thing is you have to get in the game if you want to say nice things about Detroit and I know you do because its a great time in Detroit, after all this is a world-class city...a Renaissance city in fact! 1984! | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 205 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.141.144.2 |
i'm familiar with the 10 clusters... i've lived in detroit for 23 years... i'm an urban planning student... i specialiazed in 20th century detroit history in undergrad... i was hoping we could pool knowledge... what i DON'T know about is how exactly the institution works... however if you DO know, susanarosa, why not share what you know? | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Wow all of you hit alot of intersting points, I would love for concerned detroiters who might want to make a change but not know where to go, and detroiters who do know where to go to meet brain storm figure out where these groups are and make it a more united front. This forum gives conserned detroiters hope, what we must do now is go beyond the hope and try to make a difference in whatever way we can. I wish there was a way to have a conference where all the nonprofits and all of the concerned citizens could come together and really truely work for change in the city. Not only meat but continue to work to make Detroit, what we all know it has potential to be. I am definately in for whatever it takes. I am willing to meet, organize whatever, I am Game 4 it. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2103 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/06 0619/dem020.html?.v=50 http://www.arisedetroit.org/ | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
This is good information. Thank you. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 208 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.141.144.2 |
that is good information, though it focuses more on environmental change and aid to the homeless, less on political change... -Andy | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7755 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/pl andevl/development/pdf/Develop ment%20Features%204%20Web.pdf | ||
Titancub Member Username: Titancub Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.134.218.45 |
Mossman, welcome. I've also been a lurker on the board for a month or so after discovering the website. I appreciate your and AndyLinn's enthusiam and ideas. Not sure why Susanrosa is bashing those new comers to the scene with ideas and optimism, despite not having all the wise knowledge that she has. I think its great and it'll take aspiring people (like the many on this board) to get things changed from the dreaded status quo Detroit has suffered through for so long. Things CAN be better, and I'm sure we can do something about it. This will involve just finding a new way to get things done, or just a determination to get things done. Throwing our hands in the air and saying 'oh well, that idea failed a few years ago' doesn't mean it has to remain that way. | ||
Mossman Member Username: Mossman Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Titancub, thanks for the support. Actually, I can't quite understand why I still have any enthuiasm left. I've been involved with design now for 40 years (now semi-retired), mostly in the Detroit area and, for a while, in Boston. I guess I still have good memories about shopping in and walking about downtown and I see so many other places that provide a stimulating urban experience. Also, as a side note: the photo of the Downtown Synagogue on the Lost Synagogues site was interesting to me because that entrance was one of the first things that I designed when I was a student intern working for Charles N. Agree, Architects in Detroit. Nothing really great, but it's still there! | ||
Drm Member Username: Drm Post Number: 1045 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.227.206.243 |
I didn't see Susanarosa bashing anyone. I think she's only trying to channel the enthusiasm in a more constructive direction. Anyway, there is lots of good advice on this thread. In particular, I'd emphasize listening to the advice to get involved with folks who are already working towards some of the things that you are proposing. Start at the bottom, make some contacts, learn how things work, etc. Just like anything else, from earning a degree to starting a business, this is how it's done. I know for a fact that existing organizations are always looking for enthusiastic people. Find something you're interested in and get involved. For example, on another thread, Jams posted that Greater Corktown Development Corporation's recycling day is tomorrow. Why not stop by and see what GCDC is up to? | ||
Ordinary Member Username: Ordinary Post Number: 40 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 70.236.170.209 |
Jtl, Thanks for that info on the 10 clusters. Mossman, good post. This is the stuff that I find the most interesting. I've got to agree with citylover that the main problem in Detroit is the crime. In addition, it's also the perception of crime. Another thing that I don't understand is why it takes so long for abondoned, burned out structures to be torn down. How much money does it cost to tear this stuff down? I'm not talking about huge buildings, just houses and small buildings. I know this is overly simplistic but I drive through these neighborhoods and see a lot of people doing nothing and at the same time all this work to be done. It's almost as if we could use some type of CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps?)here. There are just not enough jobs in the city. |
