 
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 475
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 3:44 am: |    |
Jjaba, Rustic, 65memories, Aram, etc:
Here are some pics off the WSU archives of Grand River at Fenkell and Grand River just before Greenfield.
The GR & Fenkell shot is just east of the Sfld on the north side of Grand River. Note the Norwest (to be demolished any day now for a Long John Silvers/A&W) in the background. The picture dates from 1938. There was definately some urban fabric back then compared to the drive-thru world that keeps expanding there now.
The GR near Greenfield is from 1977. Note how intact the urban fabric and the original buildings are. Amazing what changes and doesn't change in 25 years.
 |
Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff
Post Number: 1375
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 4:06 am: | |
What hasn't changed is that jjaba still has that car : ) |
The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram
Post Number: 1833
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.31.87
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 4:56 am: | |
Wow.
Great pics. It's shocking to me that the Norwest, a perfectly viable small theater, will be demolished for another fast food restaurant.
Across GR is a White Castle. Next door is a Popeye's. Next to that is a Wendy's. Down the street a little bit is a McDonald's. Why the hell is a Long John Silver's/A&W in order here?
Ridiculous. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 476
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 5:07 am: | |
I'll have to get a picture of what that shot looks like today to post in comparison. It's very shocking to see the degredation of the urban fabric with what most folks are saying is "good" development. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 678
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.169.214.204
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 9:03 am: | |
For a guy who's never jjaba, Jeff sure knows what I drive. Like me, my rides are Depression era.
In front of Cunningham's, there appears to be a Fire Call Box. Correct me if I'm wrong. Next door is FW Woolworths, which we call Woolshits. AKA as FW Woolworthless.
So which corner is Cunningham's on?
What pretty green tiles they had.
Capitalism and private property requires highest, best use of the land. With the comsumption of sliders and grease sticks so high, the properties go to fast food joints. Gone are barber shops, drug stores, hardware stores, light offices, doctor offices, dentists, soda shops, and Five and Dime stores from Detroit arterials.
After they pulled up the street car tracks on Grand River, they went to electric feeder buses. jjaba rode them all the time down to Cass Tech.
They were quiet and could roll. To keep on schedule, they had uniformed dispatchers on main intersections, standing tall with white gloves writing down actual times of arrival. He would wave them ahead if they got bunched up and make the people wait for the next one. They wore those beautiful watches that hung upside down from a leather pouch. The drivers had them too.
The buses were marked GRAND RIVER-TELEGRAPH, GRAND RIVER-LAHSER, GRAND RIVER-GREENFIELD, etc. and would turn around at those spots.
jjaba worked at Grand River and Greenfield at Crowley-Milners in the Shoe Dept. 1963-65. Mr. Manko was a nasty SOB for whom to work.
jjaba |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 477
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 11:11 pm: | |
Here's what the same street looks like today (I took the pictures yesterday). The only remaining building, the Norwest, will be coming down within a few weeks. You've heard of demolition by neglect, this is neglectful demolition. It will take 30 years or more for the street to return to the 1938 design and infrastructure.
 |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 478
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 11:20 pm: | |
Here's Grand River near Greenfield. Demolished are Big Boy, Alberts, the electronic store and tons of other stuff. Curiously the St. Vincent de Paul Thrift Store (the "furniture" store on the right) is still standing with the exact same paint sceme.
 |
65memories
Member
Username: 65memories
Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.252.71.127
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 11:55 pm: | |
BVOS...Wow! Thanks for the great pics. It's amazing the changes which have taken place. Back then, it seemed like every major intersection had a green-tiled Cunninghams. And Jjaba, speaking of fire call-boxes, remember when such boxes were also placed on residential streets? I remember living on Oakfield and when I was about 6 years old, my friends and I pulled a box that was on the corner near our house. Minutes later, a fire truck and firemen arrived. I remember my Mom was very embarrassed and also very mad. I don't remember my punishment, but I know I never pulled another one. |
Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic
Post Number: 646
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 12:21 am: | |
bv thanks for sharing the photos.
re the 1930s GR/"southfield xway" photo:
(1) the cunninghams and woolworths were probably torn down for a service station on the trapezoidal tip of GR/southfield/fenkell block (it's now a BP, it usedta be a Standard) when southfield xway was dug. Interestingly, there has probably been an active working gas station on that corner longer than that cunninghams drugs/woolworth were there.
(2) the remainder of the block made it piecemeal more or less into the early 70's when it was razed for a suburban style buffet steakhouse surrounded by a parking moat. (As I dimly remember it, thae storefronts were mostly empty back then.) This lasted ~20 years and was eventually torn down for the popeyes.
(3) the fenkell side of that skinny block (not seen from the photo) was razed in the 60's for a Vic Tanny health club which is still there operating under another name.
(4) I'll bet that the clusters of mature trees partway down the block and on the other side of the Norwest were OLD houses on GR. Remember this whole area in the 1930's was rapidly filling in with brand spanking new white collar middle class housing into what had been redford TWP farmland. Mature trees in the 1930's would have likely surrounded one of those early to mid-1800's slate roofed wood houses that were spaced along GR. (a few survive waay wayy out if you drive GR to lansing but even recently you could see some in populated Detroit and nearby suburbs (a grand commercial example of this was the very recently demolished (?) Botsford Inn on GR and 8-mile another one (a regular house) was on GR near forrer that was razed in the 1970's). |
Rustic
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Username: Rustic
Post Number: 647
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 1:08 am: | |
re the 1977 GR/forrer photo.
Boy does that bring back memories for me! first the slate grey winter detroit sky, the never melting black snow clinging to the long winter shadows on the south side of the street, the salt stained pavement damaged from the repeated thaw freeze cycle ... ahh home sweet home ... looking at that photo, I can feel my ears burn as I turn and face westward up GR into the biting wind!
By '77 GR and Greenfield's fate had been sealed. Northland (~3.5 miles to the north) was just enclosed a year before and with the addition of Pennys the Detroit store a few blocks down GR was closing. Fairlane (about 5 miles south and 1 mile west) had just or was about to open with a brand new Sears and Hudsons and the imposing but old fashoined Wards and tiny Crowley's couldn't compete. the surrounding residential neighborhoods had become majority black about as fast as you could say "Keim Sold Mine" 24 times per block  , and blockbusting was continuing in force driving the middle class black families even further out GR. The smaller well established retail was more or less falling over itself to abandon the evolving customer base.
Anyway that photo was likely taken on a Sat or Sun AM given the absence of cars parked along GR and since no one was waiting at the bus stop on Montrose.
This sort of represents the western edge of the GR/Greenfield shopping strip. There were two electronics stores Evergreen Electronics (which had probably already closed by early 1977) on the right just past the Montrose Bar and Grill and Olsen Electronics directly across the street. Had that photo been taken during business hours on Sat morning it MAY have shown my own bike locked to the street lamp outside olsen electronics. Olsen electronics had lots of really cool surplus electronics junk that they sold (in addition the hifi's etc.). And I usedta spend lots of time in that store browsing through their junk for stuff to play with, lol. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 480
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 1:29 am: | |
When you look at historic photos from around the city, it did seem that Cunninghams was on every corner. There is still a Cunninghams building at Grand River and Greenfield. It's now a shoe store that somehow managed to stay up despite the clear cutting of everything around it by Herb Strather for strip malls.
Now we have Rite Aid/Walgreen/CVS on every corner and with extremely cheap design and materials. Makes me wonder if we'll long for those boxes in 30 or 40 years. I doubt it. Cunninghams had excellent design and materials to their buildings. Unfortunately that commitment has gone out of style.
It's amazing how short businesses and buildings last in the area. The Popeye's Chicken was originally built as a Boston Market. Boston Market downsized everywhere, including this location. It sat vacant for a few years before becoming a Popeye's Chicken in the late '90s/early '00s.
The Vic Tanny became a Fitness USA back in the late 80s/early 90s. It was open up until 2 years ago when the owner suddenly closed the place down one night. He didn't inform his employees, gym members or anything. A recent court case involving his long time girlfriend shows that this owner was an incredibly arrogant guy who is probably a real prick. The place is vacant now and up for sale. The price is a bit high, especially since you can't move the cell phone tower behind the building.
Thanks for the tip on the trees and the houses. The Botsford Inn is still standing. I think it may be closed though. The last few times I've driven by the parking lot has been completely empty. Of course Grand River was being resurfaced and the road was a disaster. Hopefully that was the reason no one was there.
I'll have to pay closer attention to Grand River and see if I can find any of those houses. Maybe it will warrant a trip from Detroit to Lansing via Grand River. That would be as authentically Michigan as driving Woodward from Hart Plaza to Pontiac. |
Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic
Post Number: 649
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 2:08 am: | |
BV, thanks for the update/clarification re fitness USA, Boston Market and Botsford Inn (last time I drove by all I saw was a new strip mall/otsford Hospital offices at GR and 8mile, if the inn is still standing I musta missed it).
BV, if you are interested in old houses (1800's) in NW detroit, good luck, there are not many. I believe there is one on in inside side of Outer Drive north of the Detroit Diesel Allison plant but south of the RR tracks (at least it was there about 2 years ago). It had been fairly extensively remodeled with some bland ~1920's era additions and modern updates but if you look carefully you can see what looks to me to have once been a fairly elegant mid 1800's farmhouse. It used to have a green/black slate roof with coral pink diamond patterning (!) and copper flashing and peak and ridge decorations and several lightning rods etc but thats probably long gone by now ...
Driving GR to lansing is fun. It used to be a nice bike ride too (either as a single shot overnight thing or taken in portions). |
Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport
Post Number: 3429
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 2:18 am: | |
Just cruised down G River yesterday. I like that drive. Cut acrossed from the west side heading east all the way down 5 mile too. Its amazing how vibrant the neighborhoods can be, yet the retail so desolate. Makes no sense at all. How could that not be a strong consumer base? Some days, I just shake my head. |
Capnhook
Member
Username: Capnhook
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 199.5.47.1
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 2:31 am: | |
Your answer to the death of retail is the change in driving habits and the rise of cars. Most of the main streets have parking just in front of the stores, no larger lots. When there were a number of people riding the bus, you could shop on the way home from work by stopping in after you got off of the bus/street car. Today the foot traffic is light and there is little parking which would allow more drivers to stop and get to the stores. The local shops used to sell everything -- shoes, cloth, etc. Most of those items are purchased at big box stores, at the mall or on line these days. Storefront retail has changed drastically and not just in Detroit.
that gives rise to the buildings on the mile roads or main roads like GR looking run down when the neighborhood just behind the store can be fine. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 483
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 3:19 am: | |
That and the fact that many of the businesses on the main drags in Detroit do a very poor job with customer service and the quality of merchandise.
Folks will only support a local mom & pop place for a while. They've been driving 15-30 minutes out to the suburbs for years, so you've go to have and/or do something different than the malls and big box retailers are doing.
I've found that most of the mom & pops are very undercapitalized and can't afford the things they really should be doing such as hiring an architect to design the outside and interior, having an interior that doesn't look like it was purchased from a garage sale, having sufficient stock, having good customer service, being able to pay good wages, having competitive hours, professional staff, etc. When you are going up against the national chains (which is where the residents of Detroit are shopping) you have to offer something different in terms of products and service or you're sunk. A mom & pop will never beat a chain on price. |
Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport
Post Number: 3434
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 5:00 am: | |
I guess I should said that there are numerous strip malls popping up all along Grand River. I guess this is a good thing, unfortunately, they are designed to meet the demand of parking out front and are not positioned up to the road. |
(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.252.71.127
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 11:39 pm: | |
BVOS...thanks for the pics. Wow, it's amazing the changes that have taken place. Back then, it seemed like every major intersection had a green-tiled Cunninghams. And Jjaba, speaking of fire call boxes, remember when they also had them placed at various streets in the neighborhood? I remember living on Oakfield, pulling one with my friends at 6 or 7 yrs. old (not realizing what I was doing) and minutes later a fire truck pulled up. My mom was embarrassed and mad. I forget the punishment, but I never pulled another.
(Message approved by admin) |
65memories
Member
Username: 65memories
Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.250.202.245
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 11:34 am: | |
Apologies to everyone. Sorry for the second posting of my same views. I obviously missed signing the first time and the view ended up attributed to unregistered guest. Sorry you had to suffer through that fire box story twice. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.10.219.196
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 1:25 pm: | |
Here's an idea: why not turn GR into a parkway by gradually buying up and demolishing the ugly commercial and planting trees on the sides and in the median. We could create shopping areas every half mile or mile that would concentrate in one place (perhaps with parking lot in the rear) the still viable retail to serve the surrounding area. I'm thinking of something like Rock Creek parkway in DC only on a smaller scale.
Here's a one opportunity from the city's slump: the city, state or private foundations could buy up large chunks of interconnected land to provide an amazing park system. The land is cheap (it was even cheaper 15 years ago). Once the city revives, this will be economically unfeasible to assemble the parkland. Belle Isle is great but, it would be even better to be able to walk or ride a bike to a good size park from any part of town. That sounds like a much better investment than a new convention center. |
Danny
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Username: Danny
Post Number: 766
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.234.186
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 9:08 pm: | |
jjaba, Cunningham's was at the corner of Southfield Rd. and Grand River in the late 1920's Just many years away before it become a FWY. Now today just another Arab-owned corner gas station. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 486
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 10:10 pm: | |
Danny,
The Cunningham's existed for quite a while, well past the 1920s. The Southfield Fwy. was constructed in the 60s so there wouldn't be a reason to tear down Cunninghams until then.
Ray, dumbest idea I've ever heard. Tear down historic, irreplaceable buildings and fill it in with non tax generating parkland. Many of the commercial buildings may be in poor repair, but they are definately worth saving. Detroit has an outstanding stock of buildings that have survived because no one (thankfully) had the money to tear them down. The key to Detroit's future is saving historic buildings, not tearing them down and building strip malls and fast food joints. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 370
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 170.213.132.253
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 4:04 am: | |
speaking of tearing down and replacing places with fast food joints, that White Castle has relocated twice...it used to be at Fenkell and Southfield....then they moved it to Evergreen and Grand River...now it's on Grand River and Southfield...Then there's the old Burger King on Prevost and Grand River that replaced one of the last old farmhouses on Grand River...the fast food places last about five or ten years, then they too are torn down. Seems like a waste |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 692
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.169.214.204
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 4:16 am: | |
Driving Grand River Avenue to Lansing was a wonderful ride. It was clear sailing once you hit Telegraph. Well, almost...
The electric feeder buses turned around out there.
Grand River Ave., known as US 16, was a three-lane highway so passing was always a challenge since you never really knew when that lane might be occupied. On hills, the No Passing Zone kept you off of it. Out by Kensington Park which was just going in, it became really pretty.
You stopped at corners in Novi, New Hudson, or Brighton. New Hudson had a very tight intersection so it was a great place for the peanut vendors and guys selling anything else. All cars stopped at the flashing red light in town. New Hudson is still intact today. Go there.
On Holidays, traffic backed up and cars belched through those puny towns. It could take hrs. to get us out to the Charles Howell Scout Reservation just beyond Brighton. Trying to pass a slow truck in that middle lane was to fake suicide sometimes.
You had to endure Howell and Fowlerville. Invariably, they'd be having a Melon Festival Parade or some other such thing, and the entire road would be re-routed down county lanes. Imagine re-routing I-96 because Milky The Clown from television was on a fucking float and 5,000 crackers were out to see him!
jjaba, memories of Grand River Ave. and US 16. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 488
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 4:28 am: | |
The White Castle on Grand River near Slfd. Fwy. used to be a Rally's. They pretty much went belly up a few years ago and that place became vacant. It sat vacant for a few years before White Castle bought it and turned it into a White Castle drive-thru. I don't know what it used to be before the Rally's, but I'm guessing it was a nice commercial building (maybe two buildings) built to the sidewalk with some nice architectural details as most buildings do in that area.
These fast food places really do turn over a lot. |
Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic
Post Number: 663
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 6:09 am: | |
The first block east of southfield on the S side of GR had a BIG grinnell's (fancy schmancy music store that had a two story tall showroom, with plate glass windows to the street and a mezannine around the back) and a couple of smaller stores (I think one was an office supply store and _I_think_ one was a print shop which is still there). Grinell's closed mid 70's and went through a series of cut rate furniture/carpet stores through the 80's and was eventually torn down.
White Castle was originally at the NE corner of fenkell and what became southfield xway and was there from ~1930 to ~1980. It was a tiny cool enameled metal orginal depression era WC. It had these weird little stools on the outside of it to sit and eat. They messed it up installing a drive through in it in the late 70's and it closed and was torn down for a KFC (something else is there now). Another large impressive white castle with tables inside was built immediately afterward on GR and Evergreen on the site of the carlot for, I believe a Lincoln Mercury Dealership that bailed for the suburbs a few years earlier. That one was torn down for a cut rate autoparts store. Other than white castle there were plenty of other slider places all over Detroit back when. White castle was typically the worst of the bunch and not all of them were cheap and some were pretty good (e.g. the smaller of the two Mott's on Fort street (the one with like 3 stools) had pretty tasty burgers if you were hungry and drunk and caught the grill on a clean day). A lot of these buildings survive as your friendly neighborhood Coney Islands (no accounting for taste I guess, sliders --> coneys horizontal move @ best, lol). |
Aaron W (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 138.162.0.42
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 4:19 am: | |
Whatever happended to the GndRvr and Greenfield renovation that was supposed to take place at the Mammoth mall by that black developer? I think that area could really spur some serious development along Grand River. It needs something and something that's carefully thought out.
(Message approved by admin) |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 694
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.169.214.204
| | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 3:47 am: | |
Thanks Rustic for your recollections of burghers on Grand River Avenue. Nobody talks much about commerical displacement by digging expressways everywhere but they are disruptive as you've noted. Grand River Ave. took several hits from Southfield Expy., and the Jeffries Expy. Southfield Rd. was wide to begin with, but not wide enuf. James Cousins Parkway was wide, but not wide enuf for the Lodge Expy.
BTW, where is the first place you see the Grand River, West of Detroit? The onliest place jjaba has ever seen it is in downtown Lansing.
jjaba, Proudly Westsider. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 492
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.57
| | Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:29 pm: | |
The Mammoth store on Grand River at Greenfield is still moving forward, slowly but surely. I saw this spring in Crain's Detroit that Herb Strather (the developer) received brownfield tax credits for the site. Deals like this, especially those involving tax credits, take a long time to put together. I'd be cautiously optimistic about the project.
Rustic, thanks for reminding me about Grinell's. I forgot about it even though you've told me a few times. The KFC is still at the NE corner of Fenkell and the Sfld Xway and doing very well, especially Sunday afternoon when the cars are backed up onto Fenkell and the Sfld for Sunday afternoon dinner.
One of the only original porcelain enamel burger joints still standing that I know of is at the southwest corner of Evergreen and Schoolcraft. It's a white porcelain enamel building with a few seats inside. A diner operates out of there now, but it looks like it could have been a White Tower at one time (doesn't have that White Castle look to it).
It would be interesting to know what was on Southfield Road before it became an expressway. I have a few stickers from furnace places, plumbers, etc. in my basement near the furnace and hot water heater. Several of them listed Southfield Rd. as their address. The Sfld, while incredibly convenient, sure jacked up the neighborhoods along it.
What amazes me is that the Sfld is considered an inadequate highway in terms of the number of lanes. There is no way (thank God) that they'd be able to expand it today. The Jefferies Fwy. is rediculously wide. What on earth were they thinking building a 14 lane highway? That must have really jacked up the neighborhoods around it. |
The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram
Post Number: 1891
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.31.87
| | Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:37 pm: | |
There is one of those enamel burger joints in Livonia. I want to say it's on Five Mile and Middlebelt or Merriman. I'll have to check on that, though. It's smack dab on the corner, so there isn't seating on the outside, but there's a few on the inside. It's really neat. There used to be one in Novi, but they knocked it over for a Kinkos or something. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 707
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.169.214.204
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 8:49 am: | |
jjaba worked at Crowley-Milners shoe Dept. and at the Greenfield/Grand River Wrigleys. For lunch we'd go over to Big Boys on the SW side of the street.
The Big Boy Combination of salad and drink, and Big Boy burger was 79 cents. The period was from 1960-65. After that, jjaba had his education and went on to bigger things.
As a sideline, jjaba was a Detroit CORE member and we picketed Grinell's for not hiring black people in their stores. We hit the downtown, the Livernois/W. Outer Drive, and the Grand River stores. It wasn't that blacks didn't have rhythm! We were with ML King, Jr. when he marched in 1963 on Woodward Avenue.
jjaba, Westside recollections. |
Paulmcall
Member
Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.40.119.31
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 10:41 am: | |
I grew up on Winthrop one block from Grand River and Greenfield.
Driving through the neighborhood is an amazing surrealistic experience.
It drives me crazy to see a Royal Oak thrive and the old area of Grand River and Greenfield be wasted.
It was practically a city in itself. Montgomery Wards, Federals, Cunninghams and Meysrs with Hughes and Hatcher next door.
You also had Woolworths, Kresage, Sanders, Big Boys, etc, all close by. Can you remember others stores like Crowleys within a block or two?
Say Rustic, are you an SMR alum? |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 708
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.169.214.204
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Richmond Bros., Bond's, National Shirt Shops, War Surplus Store, Meyers Treasure Chest Jewelry, Wrigley's Grocery Store, Ned's Firestone Tires are some that come to mind.
They might not all have been at Grand River/Greenfield since jjaba is more familiar with Grand River/Oakman.
That was the big Sears corner store, complete with huge auto dept. off of Elmhurst.
jjaba, Westside kid. |
Leoqueen
Member
Username: Leoqueen
Post Number: 12
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 152.163.253.6
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 8:01 pm: | |
I fondly remember the Cunninghams that used to be in Highland Park, on the corner of Sears and Woodward, right across the street from Sears Department Store. I bought my first ever lottery ticket there... |
Damon
Member
Username: Damon
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.114.53.1
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:12 pm: | |
Awesome pics! |
Aiw
Member
Username: Aiw
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.216.150.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:37 pm: | |
There's a few old burger joints around... Teh Telway on Michigan & an old White Tower on Michigan in Dearborn.
There's one in Farmington Hills @ Orchard Lake & 10 mile.. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 711
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.169.214.204
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 2:08 am: | |
Imagine how strong Sears-HP really was. I remember the street named for them too. Plus, Lowell Boileau, the lordmayor of this website, drove truck for them.
jjaba |
Travashamockery
Member
Username: Travashamockery
Post Number: 342
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.73.58.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 2:54 am: | |
It's a shame Ford virtually abandoned that HP factory across the street. The historical marker is posted but it's just so dirty and unkempt. You'd think the Woodward Dream Cruise would stretch out and revitalize the area at least in the summer but there is that invisible wall at 8 mile that whitey is afraid to cross with his Chevelle/Falcon/Belvadere. |
Paulmcall
Member
Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.40.119.31
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 6:25 am: | |
There used to be a Likers burger joint on Acacia and Greenfield that at one time was open every day of the year!!
I remember going in there for a burger early in the morninng (as a paperboy) and the waitress would come out with her slippers on. I think she caught a few winks in the back.
Bates (on Farmington and 5 mile) is the closest I've seen that resembles it. |
ghein (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.220.193.144
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
Aram, the burger joint you speak of is a Bates Hamburger stand. Good place to get a couple of sliders. We used to go to the one in Novi all the time when I was little. City leaders thought the Novi location was an eyesore or something, and it was knocked down so they could put up that fabulous fidelity investments.
(Message approved by admin) |
Bvos
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Username: Bvos
Post Number: 499
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.196.8
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:18 pm: | |
Thanks for all the great info everyone.
It's amazing how things change, some for the better, some for the worse. |
Paulmcall
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Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.40.119.31
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 10:09 am: | |
Anyone remember Chubby Checker being at Federals Dept store in the the early 60's?
Remember Winter Wonderland on Schoolcraft?
I used to see Bill Gatsby of the Red Wings there. |
Danny
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Username: Danny
Post Number: 815
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.234.186
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 11:09 am: | |
Detroit is Detroit with its plenty of middle- class neighborhoods. It si not met to have pre-suburban strip malls or other pre-suburban homes in which old classic neighborhoods have to be torn down and its people displaced into somewhere. Downtown Detroit is suppose to have buildings lined up or to build taller skyscrpaers than can reach the clouds. It is now supose to be torn down to build some ugly one surface parking lots. Downtown Detroit is not suppose to turn into a pre-suburban utopia, but a booming metropolis for tomorrow. |
Rustic
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Username: Rustic
Post Number: 679
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:18 am: | |
Paulmcall, welcome to the forum! Sounds to me like you're about 10-15 years older than me (I grew up near GR and fenkell). Your additional recollections of the area would be most welcome (BV? are you listening?). RE smr, yup. (gee .. how'd you know? ) Re winter wonderland on schoolcraft, there was a thread about this recently where BV was asking about it. You may want to search the forum for old threads about 'schoolcraft', 'greenfield' and 'fenkell'.
Paul, question 1: was the great lakes theater still operating when you were a kid? I only knew of it after it clsoed as a first run theater.
Paul question 2: do you remember the old wood house on GR between, I think, Forrer and winthrop? IT was torn down in the 70's for a parking lot for a Burger King. I recall it was an OLD farm house, am I mistaken? |
Bvos
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Username: Bvos
Post Number: 508
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.147
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 1:03 am: | |
Paul, thanks for your recollections of the area. I tried posting this response earlier but it seems to have disapeared.
Thanks for the info on Winter Wonderland. I've been asking around about a Red Wing owning the place. Most folks seem to remember someone who was relatively famous, but not real famous like Howe or Abel. Bill Gatsby must be the one that owned the place. Some folks seem to remember the Howe family hanging around the place quite a bit. Any ideas/memories about that?
Chubby Checker at the Federals, that must have been a sight. Would be neat to see some pictures of that. A semi-famous musical event (according to local lore) that I do know about happened at Grandland in the 70s or 80s. The Blue Pigs (the police band) did a gig in the Grandland parking lot and a lot of people showed up. Apparently quite a few cars were stolen and broken into while the "pigs" played on stage. Only in Detroit! |
Paulmcall
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Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.43.230.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:20 am: | |
Thanks for the welcome guys.
The Great Lakes theatre used to cost a quarter on Sat. Matinees in the early 60's. Ben Hur and the Wild Angels played there.
Crowleys and our meat market were down that way on Grand River.
I can remember a Sunoco Gas Station (run by Dave Davidson)in 1965, Baldoni's Hardware on that side of Grand River and Christoff's (best broasted chicken I ever had) just past the area where Woolworths and Saunders used to be.
I'm not sure about the wooden house but I wouldn't be surprised.
Poopdeck Paul was with Chubby Checker at Federals.
I remember having Earl Morrell sign an autograph at Hughes and Hatchers for me. I learned to ride a bike in their parking lot.
I'm 53 by the way. |
Judgment
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Username: Judgment
Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.249.9.73
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 9:31 am: | |
Man, you guys are talking my neighborhood now
I remember when I saw Krush Groove and Terminator 2 at Norwest...I had no idea it lasted that long.
And due to the closing of I-96 last weekend, I took a drive down Grand River as well. Didn't get a chance to see much...was too distracted by all of the POTHOLES  |
Bvos
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Username: Bvos
Post Number: 513
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.147
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 11:20 pm: | |
Be sure to check out the Photo Du Jour for July 23rd: Fleishman's Carpet at GR & Evergreen. I know Rustic has some memories of that place.
https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/24933.html?1090638741
and Photo Du Juor for July 16th: Norwest Theater.
Thanks Andrew for taking the good pictures and posting them on the web. There are lots of great commercial buildings outside of downtown. |
Riverratracer
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Username: Riverratracer
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.100.225.213
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 3:48 am: | |
The pictures of the GR-Greenfield-Fenkell triangle and GR at Greenfield and Southfield brought back many memories of when I was a Detroit Times paperboy in the area. One of the postings mentioned the slate grey skies of the Detroit winter; oh, how I remember delivering the papers every afternoon, no matter how cold or how deep the snow. In the early 50's, the distribution center for thr Times was a half block south of Grand River on Southfield and was run by a man named Barney T. out of a large garage. The carriers appreciated the White Castle and it's warmth in the winter. |
Rustic
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Username: Rustic
Post Number: 695
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.164.200.234
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 2:59 pm: | |
Riverratracer, welcome to the forum! Do you remember what was at at the Grandland site before they built grandland? (Grandland is inside the SW triangle formed by Fenkell crossing GR.) Do you remember any old farm houses scattered along GR? |
Expat
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Username: Expat
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 24.60.133.101
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 12:32 am: | |
I grew up south of Schoolcraft between Greenfield and Southfield in the 1950s, '60s, and early '70s. Here are some memories of relevance to this thread:
1) Winter Wonderland. This ice-skating rink at Schoolcraft and Grandmont was a big part of my childhood. I remember when it was still an outdoor rink (in the summer, it doubled as a nursery). My little league hockey team practiced there (Red Wing trivia: I learned how to lift a puck with Mark--or was it Marty?--Howe.) In the late '60s, (if I remember correctly), they made it a (much larger) indoor rink. Friday-night skating was a big social scene for me and my classmates from Our Lady Queen of Hope parochial school.
2) Bill Gatsby. For a time, this Red Wing lived on Memorial, just south of Schoolcraft. His daughter Brenda was a regular at Friday-night skating (I know; I loved her from afar.)
3) The Grand River-Greenfield shopping area. The summer of 1972, after my last year of high school, I worked as a stock boy in the garden department at Montgomery Wards. During lulls in the workday, I would talk Nietzsche with a college student (who would eventually become a history professor) who worked as a salesman there. |
Riverratracer
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Username: Riverratracer
Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 2:46 am: | |
River rat racer returns with more memories of the GR-Fenkell-Greenfield area.
1) Yes, I do remember the old houses that were likely part of farms along GR. The one I remember most was around GR and Prevost. I think someone else mentioned it being at Winthrop and GR. There were others as well scattered in the area. But the one we are thinking of lasted the longest. Another GR staple was Dooley's Bar at Mettatal and GR that for years was a wonderful neighborhood watering hole. It was about a block west of St. Mary's of Redford Church.
2) Just west of Southfield between Fenkell and Grand River was a large (for the time) A&P Food Store. I worked there as a high school kid in the late fifties after I left delivering newspapers as a career. The manager was George Faber and the Asst. Manager Ed Robinson. Also there was a stock manager named Frank F. who was the union steward as well. I left that job in 1958 but in 2003 on a cruise ship in the Caribbean a man and his wife sat down next to me on the ship and we started talking and found out we were both from NW Detroit. I started to tell them that I worked at the A&P and mentioned the three names above. The fellow and his wife both exclaimed, I'm (he's) Frank F.! So 45 years later we once again met and told war stories about the old Detroit.
3) The talk about our sports heros living in our neighborhoods and being nice guys reminds me of George Kell who lived on either Lindsay or Oakfield between Fenkell and Six Mile when he won the batting title. As kids he would graciously give us autographs! Probably not too common now. He was a real gentleman.
(Message edited by riverratracer on July 26, 2004) |
Bvos
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Username: Bvos
Post Number: 517
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.199.233
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 3:48 am: | |
Expat & River Rat,
Thanks a million for your memories. The history behind the Winter Wonderland (now Detroit Roller Wheels rollerskating rink) was tough to dig up. It seems that the folks still living in the neighborhood can't seem to remember much about it.
George Kell living in the neighborhood was elusive as well. Rumor had it that a famous Tiger lived in the neighborhood while he was at the peak of his career. No one could remember if it was Ernie Harwell, Al Kaline, etc. Now it's been figured out. Thanks a million! |
Rustic
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Username: Rustic
Post Number: 698
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 2:48 am: | |
Expat, welcome to the forum! Do you remember handball tournaments at that park on the OTHER side of Jeffries? I'm a bit younger than you and only dimly remember the tail end of them!
The neighborhood expat mentions (schoolcraft/fullerton/greenfi eld/southfield) is a really interesting mix of stuff and reflects nicely the tail end of boomtown Detroit. South towards Fullerton there were factories, warehouses and various industrial stuff and train tracks with all sorts of train cars going past (still are btw). Appropriately casting long menacing shadows over this area the Jeffries greenfield and jeffries southfield interchange bridges. A short pedestrian bridge walk across Southfield gets you to what was the Massey Furgeson (?) factory (is it still empty?). (Since it had no cross traffic and was fairly deserted @ night, Fullerton there WAS a good street to drag race provided you knew where the train tracks crossed the street. Maybe nowadays kids still drag their modded civics, neons and focii on fullerton? )
The housing in these few blocks has a bit of everything that you'd find in NW Detroit, some pre war tudors like in Grandmont or South Rosedale, WW2 era bungalows (some duplex) like in Crary-St.mary, post war colonials like in Warrendale. There are several 1950's/1960's era apartment buildings and some duplex houses like those along Greenfield north of Seven Mile. There also are some newer late 60's early 70's construction like you'd find out near seven mile and telegraph. There might even be some 80's in-fill housing.
Schoolcraft towards Greenfield had older pre war retail buildings, west toward southfield things were newer dating into the late 60's even early 70's.
That area "changed" from a ~100% white neighborhod to a majority black neighborhood a few years earlier than Grandmont to the North did. IT "changed" in two parts. in the early 70s the eastern part "changed" quickly (like in a year or so ... and I am not kidding!). The western part "changed" more slowly (like over 4 years, lol) in the mid-late 70's (74-78? or 76-80?).
Expat mentions Queen of Hope. That was a small tight-knit Catholic parish with a small grade school. I and my siblings were friends with kids that went there (if Expat has younger sibs I'll bet I'd recognize his last name, lol). The school closed in ~77 or so and the church was closed shortly afterward (maybe ~79-80?). St. Mary's probably absorbed most of the parishoners that remained in the neighborhood ... |
Expat
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Username: Expat
Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 24.60.133.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 3:05 am: | |
Not handball tournaments, but I played on the O'Shea All-Stars, which was the little league football team that played at the park. The railroad tracks I remember well, as I had to cross them to get to practice (this was in the days before the Jeffries). We used to do crazy things on those tracks: cross under trains, jump from boxcars into sand cars, walk the rails for miles in search of still-usable flares. It's a wonder none of us ever got killed.
I lived on Abington, in the first block north of Fullerton, a neighborhood of extremely modest post-war "starter homes." My parents were one of the first families to move into the neighborhood--and stayed until 1976. In grade school, I had a Detroit News paper route a few blocks west on Rutland, which introduced me to the wonderful homes on that street north of Schoolcraft up to Grand River (which, as far as I was concerned, were absolute mansions).
Queen of Hope was a satellite parish of St. Marys of Redford, finally becoming an independent parish in 1966 or so. I went to school there for eight years. Some pretty extraordinary IHM nuns taught there, including the principal who was the daughter of Louis Rabaut, the Michigan congressman who has the (perhaps dubious) honor of sponsoring the law that put the words "under God" into the pledge of allegiance.
So, my question is: what is the state of the neighborhood today? |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 578
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:08 am: | |
I was in Salt Lake City Friday and stopped in one of the best used book stores ever. I found a booklet produced by the US Geological Survey - they call it a portfolio - about the detroit area. It's 24" x 30" and about 30 pages of maps, photos and geological/topographical descriptions of the Detroit area from 1915. Below is a scanned portion of one of the maps of the area you guys are discussing. The map says the survey was done in 1904 and the map printed in 1915.
Looks like the top left corner is the Grand River/Fenkell/Southfield intersection. The bottom right corner is the Grand River/Livernois/Chicago intersection, near the settlement of Howlett. The electric rail line running up GR is called the Detroit & Orchard Lake Electric and the rail line curving westward just south of GR is the (West Detroit Branch) of the Pere Marquette RR.
At the SE corner of GR and Greenfield, across from the settlement name "Greenfield", is a cemetery...you can just barely make out the cross symbol on the image. Is that still there? It's hard to see, but there are a few other schools and churches scattered about. Most of those creeks that run southwestward across GR lead into a tributary of the Rouge called Campbell Creek. Other than that, the area looks wide open and ready for massive development in the next decade:
 |
Mikem
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Username: Mikem
Post Number: 580
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:41 am: | |
By 1947 the sprawl was complete:
 |
Bvos
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Username: Bvos
Post Number: 520
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.199.233
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:52 am: | |
The area you are talking of Expat is a mixed bag. Grandmont (Sfld to Asbury Park, GR to Schoolcraft) has remains largely the way it always has been with well maintained houses, lots of big trees, etc. This is largely due to the very active Grandmont Community Association and the Grandmont Rosedale Development Corporation.
Outside of this area there are some nice pockets, but it's become run down, especially near the Jeffries Fwy. and the Sfld. Fwy. It's no where near as bad as the Eastside or Brightmoor, but things aren't looking up. There aren't any strong neighborhood organizations outside of Grandmont and that's seemingly the only way things get taken care of in Detroit.
MikeM,
That's an absolutely facinating map! I'd love to take a look at it sometime. What's the official title of the map? I'm guessing the Burton Collection or WSU would have it in their collections.
The Pierre Marquette Line is still in operation today and owned by the Canadian Pacific railway. The Jeffries Fwy (I-96) follows the route of this line almost to the T. The intermodal facility along the Jeffries between Greenfield and Evergreen is the busiest international intermodal freight terminal in Detroit. Stuff comes in from China, Mexico, India, etc. and is sent to manufacturers all over the SE Michigan area. The emerald ash borer may have very likely come through that freight terminal.
The tractor factory (Massey Furguson which through a number of transactions became Ford tractor) is still standing, but is not fully used. It has been split up and is being leased out in portions. The water mains, sewer lines, power lines, roads, etc. are so huge for that plant that they could literally serve a small city by themselves. Probably typical of most of post-industrial Detroit.
The cemetary at GR and Greenfield is the cemetary for St. Mary of Redford Catholic Church. I don't know if it's still there. Rustic, if it was there when you attended then it would still be there today. Any recollection of it? Here's a link to the history of St. Mary of Redford which talks about the cemetary and the area: www.smralumni.org/histintro.ht m
I'll post a pic below of what Grand River looked like around 1910. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 521
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.199.233
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:58 am: | |
Here's an unknown stretch of Grand River near Detroit from around 1910, around the same time as the map above. Thanks WSU for the great website full of pics http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx
We can safely say that Grand River has gotten better and remains better than the pic above. So "there" to those who say Detroit is a third world country. At least we're more advanced then we were in 1910!
 |
Mikem
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Username: Mikem
Post Number: 581
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 5:27 am: | |
The old map is titled:
"Geological Atlas of the United States
- Detroit Folio -
Wayne, Detroit, Grosse Pointe, Romulus, and Wyandotte Quadrangles".
The USGS set out to make atlases of the entire country. This one was produced in 1917 with the maps compiled earlier. It has 22 pages describing the topography and geology of the area, including the different ice-age
stages, a vertical diagram of the bedrock layers, soil types, mineral deposits, ground water chemistry, etc. Following that, it has a topographical map of the area spread over 6 pages, followed by 6 pages of "Areal Geology" maps, mostly showing the soil types, moraines, and ancient shorlines, followed by a page containg an artesian ground water map and bedrock map, followed by a page of photos of geological features, such as till layers in road cuts, etc.
I could bring it over anytime except I'm going on vacation next week and won't be back until around the 20th. Remind me next time you see me posting.
The second map has few features other than roads. However, it does show some of the larger factories around town, and the yellow spot is identified as the Nash-Kelvinator Corp. What's there today (Plymouth, west side of tracks)? |
Rustic
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Username: Rustic
Post Number: 701
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 5:36 am: | |
BV, I can't remember a cemetary around GR and Greenfield, boomtown Detroit musta dug up the bodies and shipped 'em elsewhere. (Detroit's lack of regard for it's history WELL predates the MTV generation, the CAY administration, the summer of '67, OR the construction of freeways lol). There is one way up in Redford offa Lahser and McNicholls that once was an old catholic cemetary which probably would have been affiliated with St. Mary's back at one time. Some one else wrote about it in this forum a year or two back, unfortunately he stopped posting a while ago and is sorely missed.
BV, re the GR photo, yeah it looks bleak, but they had mass transit so it was no big deal right, lol!
MikeM, please please give us more! start a new thread and scan away! What I find fascinating are all the rivers and creeks that disappeared, as a city kid growing up I never gave a thought about such things (you had to take a long dangerous bike ride up GR or out McNicholls or fenkell to redford to catch frogs and shit like that in a real creek). (btw, assuming those dots are houses, you can see how many houses there were along GR back in the olden days.) Where can I get a book of satellite photos from the 1900's, the 20's, the 40's, and the 60s lol! |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 585
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 6:52 am: | |
Rustic, I'm happy to scan away but it's a tedious process. Scan, convert to jpeg, edit, and finally trim it down to Lowell's 50kb limit. That's a real killer of detail.
I know what you mean about the creeks...all in cement tubes now or filled in. Sometimes if you look closely, you can see the remains. Depressed elevations, a strip of larger than usual trees, a curving street, etc.
Here's the areal geology:
South of GR, the light horizontal-striped area is "Chiefly Lacustrine clay in bed of glacial lakes". The darker horizontal-striped areas labeled Ql are "Lacustrine loamy soil in bed of glacial lakes". Sounds like a fancy salad. North of it, the red diagonal-striped area is "Moraine largely covered by thin lake sediments". That short dark strip crossing GR is "Beach sand, pebbly in areas" along the ancient "Grassmere Shore Line" (and I'm not talking railroads). South of it you can see the edge of the "Elkton Shore Line" and to the north are the "Wayne Sand Ridges" and the edge of the "Wayne Shore Line". |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 586
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 7:28 am: | |
Artesian water in Detroit:
Blue countours are the level to which the water will rise when tapped, ranging from a low of 580' near the river to over 760' in Farmington. Countours are spaced at 20' intervals.
Red countours are the depth of glacial till over the underlying bedrock. Countours are at every 20'. The oval area over the northeast side of Detroit, north of Belle Isle is 160' as is the area on the county line north of Hamtramck. The small area just north of Dearborn is 180' as is the area in southeast Warren Twp, while west of Royal Oak, it's 220' thick.
The blue patches in Springwells, Zug Island, and Erin are "areas in which flowing wells are known to occur" and individual wells are indicated by small black dots. |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 587
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 7:57 am: | |
Bvos, from that St Mary's link you provided:
"Father Dooling turned his attention to the parish cemetary. The parcel of land at the corner of Grand River and Division Roads which served the parish for nearly sixty years was no longer adequate by the early twentieth century. On April 18, 1903, an additional six acres was purchased for $1,000 in the vicinity of Grand River and Snyder (McNichols) Roads giving St. Mary of Redford two parish cemeteries. "
and
"On October 9, 1923, a portion of Redford that included church property and the parish's first cemetary were incorporated into the city of Detroit. Interred remains were transferred to the second parish cemetary north of the church."
That answers the question about the cemetery at GR and Greenfield. |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 589
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
Here's the Redford area. Sand Hll appears to be at the corner of Grand River with Lasher running north and Lamphere to the south. I'm an eastsider, so Sand Hill is a new one to me. To the south at Telegraph & Fenkell, is Bell Branch, named after the Bell Branch of the Rouge, running off to the west of the settlement. Telegraph seems to end at GR with Shiawassee running to the north in its place, on the west side of the Rouge. On the east side of the Rouge is Beaverland or Berg running north from GR to beyond Eight Mile. Redford seems to be centered on 7 Mile at Berg or the river. My mom lived in this area from ~ '23 to '46:
 |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 590
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:46 am: | |
Grand River and Eight Mile, which isn't there in its entirety, is called Clarenceville. Who was Clarence?
 |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 591
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:58 am: | |
The sprawling suburb of Livonia, corner of Fenkell & Farmington, looks like it would blow away in a stiff breeze. At the east end of Fenkell is Bell Branch again. South of Bell Branch, at what is now W Outer Drive where it crosses the CSX tracks, is the hamlet of Oak. Head west along the tracks and you pass through Beech at Beech-Daly Rd, Elm at Middlebelt, and Stark at.....ta-da! Stark Rd.
 |
Mcwm
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Username: Mcwm
Post Number: 37
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 216.93.208.138
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:43 pm: | |
Very cool. Thanks for taking the time to scan etc. |
Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic
Post Number: 704
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.101.199.57
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 1:07 pm: | |
Mikem, cool stuff! thanks much! Neat to hear that Springwells was aptly named. I had always heard that Artesian street was named for an underground stream that flowed beneath. Your initial scan just cut off where Artesian would be (it is about 1/8th mile WEST of southfield rd, and although it probably runs from 8 mile down to dearborn, I'll bet it was orginally named when South Rosedale Park was laid out in the ~20's). any sign of a river there? |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 592
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 1:50 pm: | |
Well, you had to ask. Looks like there's a creek starting south of the Hubbard Marsh, vicinity of Eight Mile & Coolidge. It runs southwest across Greenfield and Southfield, then turns south to cross GR and Fenkell (left of "F" in Reford):
From there it flows south-southeast, eventually crossing east of Southfield again around Joy, eventually turning east, south of Ford Road to the bottom right corner:
It joins Campbell Creek just north of Michigan (below "S" in Springwells) and together they run into Baby Creek and the Rouge:
 |
Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic
Post Number: 706
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.101.199.57
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 3:08 pm: | |
MikeM, thanks! looks like Artesian St. comes within a block of that crick arm inside the SW GR fenkell triangle (tho looks to me that Stahelin sits atop the where the creek was, but since Stahelin was probably paying for the development he could name the streets however he wanted). Also it's neat to see that there was some sort of weird little non NS/EW grid border jog in the NE GR fenkell triangle that is reproduced in the modern street layout, I wonder what that was in 1904 and why they kept it?
The old house I've been harping on (that Riverratracer said was on GR and Prevost) is probably the black dot under the A in "Orchard" along Grand River in mikem's map. That "dot" survived to the mid 70's. The clusters of large trees visible in BV's FIRST photo in this thread that I suggested were old houses correspond quite nicely to black dots on mikem's '04 map, not a bad guess I must say! Armed with this map with a streetmap overlay, it might be fun to hunt down any remaining old houses or even old trees in NW Detroit. For example is that one house on Outer Drive hard south of the RR tracks north of Detroit Desiel plant on the '04 map?
btw, this meandering thread about long gone neighborhood history and long lost meandering creeks is just great stuff, imo! |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 593
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:18 am: | |
Yes, I too love history at the neighborhood level. Here's a close-up for you. I see that today, Artesian runs all the way down to Ford Rd. Maybe the creek has nothing to do with the name.
Westbound Fenkell doesn't make it all the way to Southfield, probably because of the creek in its way. That must be Ferguson? that angles southwest to Grand River.
The legend defines any dot with a cross on top as a "church or schoolhouse". Looks like there's one at Grand River & Ferguson, one under the "C" in Orchard (St Mary's?), one at GR & Hubbell, and one on Schoolcraft between GR and Greenfield.
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Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 524
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.199.233
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:27 am: | |
Have to agree that this is one of the best threads that I've seen on the site in a while and by far the best on NW Detroit. Ironic that we're talking about a creek while meandering around NW Detroit.
Rustic, as you deduced, Artesian is indeed named after an artesian spring and the nearby creek. You can read about the creek and the spring(s?) in a history of North Rosedale Park that's available here:
http://northrosedalepark.org/Q uarterCentury/Quarter%20Centur y.htm
It's in one of the first sections where it mentions a creek runing along Outer Drive (is that why it curves all over the place?) and artesian springs in the neighborhood.
Rosedale Park and North Rosedale Park was plotted and developed by the Shelden family. The family's fortune started when Alan Shelden moved from NY state with $45 in 1855 to Detroit. He worked for Zachary Chandler and eventually became partner in Chandler's dry goods business around the 1860s. He eventually bought Zachary Chandler out and became one of the largest businesses in Detroit and the largest dry goods business in Michigan.
Alan was quite a businessman and among other things owned the majority of the stock of the predecessor to Comerica Bank. Alan's children married into the Warren (of Parke Davis fame), Buhl, Alger and Walker (Hiram) family. All of these folks are buried in Elmwood Cemetary.
Alan's wife was good friend's with the wife of Mr. Hudson and that began a long friendship between the Hudson and Shelden families. In the 1893 recession, Shelden bailed out Hudson's from collapse.
Alan's sons got into the real estate business and did a few developments before doing Rosedale Park. This was one of the first developments in the nation to sell a completely finished home in a planned community. Before then, when you bought a house, you got a framed house and then had to hire your own electrician, mason, etc. to finish the place. In most subdivisions of the time the houses and streets weren't really planned and they just sort of happened as more people bought houses. As part of the planned development for Rosedale Park, Shelden Sons Sales Co. also pioneered the subdivision gateway, set aside land for parks, churches and other public spaces.
After Rosedale Park, the Shelden Sons Sales Co. went on to develop North Rosedale Park, which was was one of the first developments in the Detroit area and one of the first in the nation to depart from the grid system and move towards curved streets. Among North Rosedale's other firsts was a community center which is now Detroit's largest privately owned park.
After North Rosedale Park, Shelden Sons Sales went on to develop Rosedale Gardens in Livonia and Springwells Twp. One Shelden family member donated the Shelden estate and manner which is now Stoney Creek MetroPark.
(Thanks to Jerry Sieja of Sterling Heights and a worker at Stoney Creek for the great history of the Shelden family.)
MikeM,
Thanks for all the great maps. I'll have to see if the library has a copy of that map and also see if I can find one for sale some where. I'd definately like to take a look at that some time.
Sand Hill still exists today. It's nestled between the Rogel (sp?) Golf Course and the north side of Grand River. A tight little community with an interesting mix of houses. It still retains much of its original country feel with ditches, no curbs, limited sidewalks, lots of trees, etc. The fact that there is a lot of sand (hence the name) in the soil gives it that summer camp feel as well.
For more info on the predecessors to Old Redford and Redford Twp., here's a great link I found. It's got a lot of info, but it's formated very poorly so reading it can be a bit much.
http://www.geocities.com/michh ist/redford.html
(Message edited by Bvos on July 28, 2004) |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 594
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.12.160
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:49 am: | |
My mom lived on Beaverland, Grayfield, and Kress (nortwest of Sand Hill) between '23 and '32. She remembers a flood washing away the soil at the Mt Hazel Cemetery on Lahser, exposing the caskets.
I'll let you know when I can get time off to bring the atlas over for your inspection. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 533
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.199.233
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 5:04 am: | |
Where Fenkell turns off just before it gets to GR/Southfield would be Biltmore (one block west of Ferguson). I've always wondered why the city grid goes funky there. Now I know.
As for that cross building, there isn't a church or school there today. Maybe they made a mistake and plotted Edison Elementary on the wrong side of the street. Edison Elementary was built in 1900 and is accross the street from the GR/Biltmore intersection on the southside of GR.
Why doesn't Fenkell go through to GR/Sfld in the picture? It seems that by looking at the map it may be what MikeM suggested, that the creek was in the way so why go through the trouble of building a bridge when it's not that hard to take your horse and wagon on a little detour to Grand River. According to the topography lines, there was a little gulch or ditch where Fenkell would have crossed the creek.
Another explanation is that the land was plotted out in parcels that had Biltmore as the dividing line. There are some very strange and archaic laws in Michigan when it comes to trying to combine parcels of land from separate subdivisions (it is extremely difficult, possibly impossible, to legally combine two parcels of land if they are part of separate subdivisions, even if they touch each other). Subdivisions are sub divisions of the large 1 mile by 1 mile divisions of land. Divisions are 1 mile by 1 mile parcels of townships. Townships are 6 miles by 6 miles parcels of counties.
Much of this land division law was decreed by the Northwest Purchase when I don't think folks thought our urbanized areas would ever get this big. They thought they were making the parcels small enough for farmers. Today those small farm parcels can become several subdivisions which are then split up into dozens and hundreds of individual lots.
Ok, one more last thing about how land was split up while we're talking about it. Many developments created separate subdivisions for the commercial areas along Grand River type streets and then separate subdivisions for the residential area behind the resulting alley. Rosedale Park and North Rosedale Park were some of the first subdivisions to have the commercial area in the same subdivision as the residential area, further showing how planned out the Rosedale Parks were from other neighborhoods and developments. |
Paulmcall
Member
Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:19 am: | |
Did any of you guys know the Madays on Abington, Sloans on Winthrop or Haas's on Forrer?
I also worked at Jack Adams rink on Lyndon and saw Gordie Howe watching his kid play hockey there. |
Paulmcall
Member
Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 79
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 10:20 pm: | |
Went by Grand River and Greenfield last week. Pretty depressing.
Federals is all boarded up and Montgomery Wards looks like hell.
A great example of how far the city has sunk. This was a vibrant area and now it's so dumpy. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 52
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 68.41.154.161
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 9:16 pm: | |
Nice thread! Lived in that area as a child in the 70s, St Mary's south of Grand River. Had my first haircut a Ray's barber shop south side of G.R just east of Sfld Expressway. We liked to eat the Rustler's restaurant where Popeye's is now. Mom liked to shop at the Sander's at the Strip Mall west of Sfld, also the Great Scott's that was there. My baby sitter and I would walk up to Federals to go shopping. She was old school, her and her husband only had one car, he would by a new big Pontiac every few years, they lived on Mettetal. Went to Kindergarten at St Mary's of Redford. I remember the house we lived in seemed large, two stories with a basement and attic, lead beveled glass. |
Paulmcall
Member
Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 30
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 68.40.119.216
| | Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 9:29 am: | |
Ever eat at the Rice Bowl across from St. Mary's church on Grand River?
The library is still down the street from there. |
Brougham
Member
Username: Brougham
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:41 am: | |
Thanks for the postings, this brings back a lot of memories for me. I grew up in the Grand River-Greenfield area in the 60's heyday. I went to Holy Cross Lutheran church, roller skated at the rink on greenfield just north of grand river every weekend, enjoyed chocolate cokes at cunninghams etc. At 18 (the drinking age was lowered) I spent a lot of time at Duffys bar which was on grand river just west of greenfield where we played foosball and air hockey while drinking 25 cent shells of beer ! Schools I attended: Cadilac, Burns, Cooley and Redford high. |
Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl
Post Number: 118
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 10:38 am: | |
Brougham, thanks for the pic of the Great Lakes Theater on the other thread. My grandma from Scotland lived right down the street from the Great Lakes on Terry four doors down from the Hunter-Calender Funeral Home. I went to the GL many times as a little boy. My Dad was a sponsor at that JA for a few years too in the 60's. I remember Bill too, though I thought he was an Armenian.
Do you remember the "Mouse House" head shop right across the street from the Great Lakes on the corner of Terry St and Grand River?
Loads of my Dads brothers and sisters lived in that great neighborhood on Prest, Marlowe and Whitcomb. I myself lived about a mile west at Archdale and Davison St W.
I also attended Cooley HS from December 1972 to June 1973 after I managed to get expelled from attending St. Mary's of Redford.
Thanks again for the pic, it sure brings back great memories. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 12:25 pm: | |
We loved that neighborhood south of Grand River between Grandmont and Greenfield. Wonderful houses, big maple trees in the back yards, and walking distance to that great shopping area at Grand River and Greenfield. Oh, yes, the Mouse House! Mouse moved out to Redford, and I think the store closed only about 5 or 6 years ago. It was on 7 mile west of Inster, I think.
How about Sun-Ya's, we always used to eat there, on Grand River west of Southfield. I think it is still there. In the 60s, there was a wonderful Pancake House on Grand River, the south side, just east of Southfield, Colonial Pancake House maybe?
I worked at Federal's in the 60s on the site of the old St. Mary's Cemetery. It was my favorite job! We used to lay white covers over all the counters at night. I also worked at Sears near Oakman and Grand River, and one of the Supremes came in one night to order from the catalog. Most exciting! Sorry, I can't remember which one. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 521
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 4:34 pm: | |
Gazhekwe:
Welcome to DYes! Please continue to share your memories about Detroit. Especially the Grand River, Fenkell, and Greenfield areas.
I'm unaware of a pancake house on Grand River east of the Southfield Expressway. Of course during the 70's there was the IHOP at Grand River west of Outer Drive.
Sun-Ya's on Grand River (north side of Grand River, east of the Southfield Expressway) near Fenkell has been mentioned a few times in this forum. Most people, myself included, wondered how they stayed in business because they rarely seemed to have any customers. And a few posters here commented on the questionable quality of the cuisine there.
And do you recall the former and infamous bar called Jordans on the River located on the south side of Grand River, east of the Southfield Expressway? It also has been mentioned here on DYes. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 6:10 pm: | |
Thank you for the welcome! There are some very interesting threads here. I love Detroit and its history.
The Pancake House used to have all kinds of different pancakes, and I particularly remember the chocolate chocolate chip ones with whipped cream. Can't believe I used to eat those!
I remember Jordan's though I never went there. As for Sun-Ya, in the 70s they were pretty good and had local and Chinese clientele. We haven't been tempted to go back though.
Over on the other side of Grand River, in the shopping center, there used to be a great dress shop, Layton's of Rosedale, I think it was, or Brayton's. Cunninghams was there, too, on Fenkell opposite Faust (I think), and it used to be open 24 hours, the only place around you could get milk if you happened to need it in the middle of the night. There used to be Big Boy, I think it was on Grand River just west of Greenfield, then a little ways up Robert Hall's.
In the 50s, my Dad worked at Glenn Pontiac, in the body shop. It was on the two north corners of Prevost and Grand River. He worked in the Body Shop which was at the back of the car lot on the west corner. I think there is some kind of a car repair shop there now. The little building on the east corner was the new car showroom. It's unbelievable to see the tiny size of it now, and think about way dealerships are so huge now. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 531
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:44 pm: | |
Brayton's (or Leyton's, or whatever it was called) made a lot of loot off my mother - it was one of her favorite women's clothing stores in the 70's.
Not being much of a bar person, I went into Jordan's only once (for the thrill of it). A few other posters have written about it in certain detail over the years.
Cunningham's was great, but Perry's Drugs that came afterward did not have the same appeal. The street that dead-ends into the former Cunningham's location is Greenview. Faust is one block to the east, where there used to be a red stop light. As a teenager, that intersection intimidated me because Faust Avenue and the entrance to Grandland did not match up properly. The two were offset by approximately 30 feet. In the picture below, notice the red line and how it shifts westward - well that is how the intersection was and I hated it!
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Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
I think it was Layton's first, then Brayton's or the other way around. I was a major supporter in the 70s, too, I bet I ran into your mother in there! The grocery store was A&P in the 70s. I am not sure what it was before that.
Yes, I didn't care for that intersection, either. |
Daddeeo
Member
Username: Daddeeo
Post Number: 304
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 3:18 pm: | |
Anybody have any old photos of the neighborhood? |
Slipkid
Member
Username: Slipkid
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 7:13 am: | |
No photos of GrandLand, some of Cooke School and Rosedale Park. Thanks for keeping the thread going.
I'm still trying to recall the name of the men's shop in Grandland. I bought a few suits and a bunch of other clothes there after I graduated from Redford High. |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1154
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:54 pm: | |
Slipkid...was it Hughes Hatcher & Suffrin?
Very nice clothing store in/near GrandLand, when I was a kid. |
Alfie1a
Member
Username: Alfie1a
Post Number: 138
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 12:59 pm: | |
We used to go to that corner a lot. Go to Wards and check out the 45's. Look at the mini-bikes and bycicles. Check out the camping gear and fool around in the tents. Basically, we went there to goof around, loiter and just make nuisances of ourselves.
Go to Big Boys if we had any dough. One time we went there while we didn't have any dough and we slipped out the door without paying. ugh. To this day, it makes me feel like crap when I think about it.
Late 70's, a friend was a manager at Kresge's. We were able to go in the store after hours and act like fools. Hmmm. That begs the question, was it an act? Or were we, in fact, fools? |
Outerdrive
Member
Username: Outerdrive
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:04 am: | |
This sure brings back memories. I used to shop at Kresge and Leyton's. There was a Kroger and an A&P in that shopping center also. I used to go to Cunningham's drug store when I was a kid and I remember walking to Norwest theater. It's sad to see how everything has changed, and most of it has not been a change for the better. |
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