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Lilpup
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Post Number: 3253
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok - classical organists scoff at theatre organs

The theatre organs have all the movie trick stops and noises on them, but for pure tone, dynamism, and musicality they can't touch the majority of cathedral organs.
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56packman
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Post Number: 1972
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Careful--it's all in what you like, a subjective thing. They are both good in their own way and it boils down to the type of music sounding right on each. Having said that, the classical sissies always think they are better than everyone else, on their little planet.
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Jrvass
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Post Number: 376
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Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 6:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always liked my organ. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
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Ocmobilexec
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Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard Gaylord Carter play at San Diego's Balboa Park on the Spreckels Organ, then later here in LA at the historic Orpheum Theatre's Wurlitzer. The Wurlitzer which used to be built into Detroit's United Artist Theatre made it's way to the Pied Piper Pizza Peddler in Warren while it was open in the 1980s. After the business closed, the organ was sold to a performing Arts Center somewhere in Wisconsin.
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And speaking of theatre organs... 56packman... are the folks who run the Senate Theatre over on Michigan Ave. still thinking about moving the old Fisher (one of a kind) Wurlitzer Organ and themselves out to the suburbs? There was a Metro Times article about it in 2003.

I always thought they should move it to the Detroit Opera House (former Capitol Theatre), and do their organ shows from there (DOH doesn't have that full of a calendar). I'm just not sure if the former Capitol organ space (for a Public 1 Wurlitzer now located piecemeal in California) is large enough to house the Fisher Organ (Lord knows the massive organ screens at the former Capitol are large enough).
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56packman
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Post Number: 1978
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok--the whole move to the suburbs thing is off at the Senate/DTOS now. The thought of the Fisher instrument going into the Opera House is intriguing--the DTOS looked into obtaining/restoring the Capitol/Grand Circus theatre in the late 80s and operating it as a performing arts center.
The right party ended up with the building and did right by it. The equipment would fit into the chambers at the opera house, no problem there. That theatre opened in 1922 with a huge Hillgreen-Lane instrument, closer to a concert/church instrument.
It was replaced in 1925 with the Wurlitzer "Publix 1" model organ, the very first production model of that design. It was 2/3 the size of the Hillgreen-Lane (and twice the instrument) and there was room to spare in that installation.
Perhaps the biggest obstacle to this meet-up would be the access to the instrument in off-hours and the fact that today's performing arts houses can't have a stationary organ console taking up space in the orchestra pit--they have to be disconnect-able. The Fisher console could be retrofitted with modern electronics that replace the 3,000 wire cable with a multiplexed 6 wire connector, but this instrument is one of a handful of these instruments that is still running (beautifully) on its original system, and is seen as a national treasure for this fact--the unaltered original "thing", preserved for future generations. We'll have to see what develops, it's always a case where you have to pick your battles.
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info 56packman.

It is also interesting to note that the enormous and ornate organ grilles on either side of the Detroit Opera House stage also date to the 1925 Wurlitzer organ installation.

When the Capitol (DOH) opened in 1922, there were only curtains covering the organ grille openings. But with the install of the Publix 1 Wurlitzer in 1925, they put in the fancy grilles.

Theatre Historical Society mentions this as a refreshing reversal (first drapes, then later grilles) of the usual way that old movie palace organ screens evolve over the decades.

Also glad to hear that there are no longer plans to remove the Fisher Organ to the suburbs. The thought of some suburban wedding hall getting such a magnificent one of a kind instrument, is rather unsettling. We want to keep that "national treasure" in Detoit! :-)

(Message edited by Gistok on January 07, 2008)
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Kenp
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.dtos.org/
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Gistok
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Post Number: 6084
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of national treasures.... 56packman... since you've met and been in the studio of the Wisconsin man who purchased the Michigan Theatre's 5/32 Wurlitzer (originally a 5/28) back in 1956... do you know what the man (Fred Hermes, now in his 80's) plans for that fabulous instrument once he passes on? It would awesome to get that instrument back to Detroit (although highly unlikely).

I've always thought (though I'm no expert in that regard) that Detroit's best theatre organs were the Fox's (Wurlitzer and Moller), the Fisher's Wurlitzer and the Michigan's Wurlitzer.
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56packman
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Post Number: 1979
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the 1920s, when all of those beasts were new, the old timers usually agreed that the best Detroit theater organs were in this order:

The Capitol
the Hollywood
the Michigan
United Artists
The Fox (auditorium)
Fisher
State (distant finish, this was an unfortunate installation, Crane didn't help this one with his design)
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Lmr
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mother really wanted to see Gone With The Wind at the Oriental Theater in 1939. However, it cost $1.10 to see it (a LOT of money for a movie then) and she just couldn't bring herself to spend that amount for ANY movie. So her dad finally gave her the $1.10.

Mom was always happy that she hadn't spent her own money to see it...she was one of the few people who hated that movie, even years later, very disappointed in it.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

56packman... does your list only involve the organs themselves, or does it include the acoustics of the venue and how the organ sounded inside that particular theatre?
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56packman
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well, both--because the instrument is either the beneficiary or victim of the room it is installed in. Consider that the Capitol was a "Publix 1" model and was considered the best (over two notably larger, more varied organs), while the State, with the identical instrument was way down the list. Theatre instruments were just thrown in, no final voicing was done (as is always done with church/concert organs), just the factory voicing--and there was a bit of the luck of the draw there, too.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, that explains why the Fox, with its huge instrument, is down on the list. The auditorium is too vast for great acoustics, while such theatres as the Capitol and UA can do more with a smaller instrument and world class acoustics.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL.
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Msamslex
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember my Dad taking us downtown to see 2001 when it came out. I believe it was at the Michigan. Downtown was packed with cars and folk going to the show. I don't remember if there was anything showing at the UA or Grand Circus but I do remember the traffic. I didn't want to see the movie, (I was just a kid then) but Dad wanted to see it. Turned out I really enjoyed the movie and was especially fascinated to see the space ships for travelers with the Pan Am logo on them. I don't know if the theatre screen was just huge but the space ships and space stations were gigantic. How big would the screen have been anyway? Also used to live around the corner from the Riviera in the early 60's on N. Clarendon, just off Joy Rd. I seem to remember some kind of restaurant or carry out where my parents used to pick up good fish sandwiches. It was there in the same block or part of the building where the Riviera was. Don't know if there were other businesses there or not.
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Dorothyd
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I remember seeing 2001 at the Summit (former Cass Theater) when it came out. Did it open at more than one theater downtown?
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56packman
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2001 opened at the Summit Cinerama in 1968, and had a secondary run at the Music Hall later. I was one of the projectionists at the Summit in 1977 when an independent party sublet the Summit (then KA the Pandora) to run a retro showing of 2001. He used to come into the projection booth right after intermission and burn a big joint then go sit in the sixth row to watch the light show sequence.
In the fall of that year we got those projectors and totally remodeled the Redford booth to accept them.
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Bob
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IS the theater organ at the Fox ever played anymore?
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56packman
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rarely--I played it for intermissions for the Nutcracker. The summer films of the early 90s were a great time for the instrument, we played before every show, all summer long.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes it is... and 56packman has played the mighty 4/36 Wurlitzer at the Fox 2 summers ago for Preservation Wayne's annual Historic Movie Palace Tours (2nd weekend in August). I was there while he was playing the "slave console" up in the balcony. He's awesome on the console! :-)

Only 4 theatres in the world are known to have had an independent lobby organ. The 3/21 Moller (with Artiste Player) in the grand lobby of the Detroit Fox is the only one of those theatres that still has its' original lobby organ, as well as its' mighty Wurlitzer in the auditorium.

56packman... you beat posting by 4 minutes!

(Message edited by Gistok on January 09, 2008)
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Cman710
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll be coming one of these years for the theater tour, so packman, if you ever intend on playing the organ, please let us know. It'd be worth the plane fare for me!
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

56Packman, did you play the lobby organ for any of those Hector Olivera concerts, back in the 80s? Hector had that old beastie bringing down the dust from the ceiling, and maybe some plaster too, from what I remember. Also a couple of ciphers, one so bad, he had to wait while it was fixed.
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56packman
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 6:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker--No, Ididn't play for that particular event, although I was in the audience. Hector is an awesome musician. He just did a great program over at the Redford Theatre last October.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Few pictures capture the rich detailing of the Gothic details in the United Artists Theatre as well as this Theatre Historical Society picture, showing part of the left organ grille.

The busts of monks on either side of the tall Gothic lantern gives off a feeling of being inside a Spanish monastery courtyard.

The effects include stone ashlar walls that are evocative of medieval masonry, surrounded by Gothic canopies.

When the house lights were dimmed during performances in the past, the effect, according to a 1928 Detroit Free Press article "evokes an ancient Castilian courtyard at dusk".





Theatre historian David Naylor said that C. Howard Crane's use of elaborate Gothic elements in his United Artists Theatres was without precedent.

Last Friday there were lots of trucks parked around the United Artists Building, with lots of workers busy inside.

The UA Theatre not only got a new roof last fall, but also some extensive metalwork added on the exterior roof. This expensive undertaking will hopefully put to rest any worries about razing the auditorium, while keeping the building.

Had J.C. Beale Construction Co. thought that the auditorium was beyond repair, it is unlikely that the expenses of adding a new roof would have been undertaken. Granted that doesn't necessarily mean the same interior decorations... but just that the auditorium is salvagable.

(Message edited by Gistok on January 16, 2008)
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Msamslex
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dorothyd an 56packman,

Thanks for the info as to where 2001 played. I was just a kid then and always thought it was somewhere else. I really don't remember the Summit and where it was but I do remember a lot of traffic and being very packed.
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Dorothyd
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're welcome, Msamslex. I remember more since I was already out of high school and working downtown then. My date and couple we "doubled" with were only too happy to sit in the very front for this picture.
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56packman
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Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Msamslex--the Summit was at the corner of Cass and Lafayette. It was built as the Cass theatre, and was for many decades one of the leading legitimate theaters in Detroit. Many big name actors trod the boards there before its conversion to the Cinerama-Summit.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 6:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another lost masterpiece (razed 1993) was John Eberson's Grand Riviera Theatre on Grand River. At 2,786 seats, it was Detroit's largest and best atmospheric theatre (Mediterranean style).

An old postcard of the Grand Riviera from my collection:

http://s215.photobucket.com/al bums/cc280/buildingsofdetroit/ Postcards/?action=view&current =riviera.jpg
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56packman
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Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 7:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rhymeswithrawk--please cross-post that link over on the HOF old movie house thread
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the pic Rhymeswithrawk. It is interesting to note how similar on the outside the Grand Riviera looked to the Ramona Theatre on Gratiot and McNichols on the east side, especially the similar rotundas.

But that similarity was only on the outside. On the inside they were much different, with the Ramona not having a balcony, and a different architect.