 
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10774
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 10:42 am: |    |
I agree. I think that the younger generations will need to lead the change to change the mentality in this state on two fronts:
1. Realize that vibrant city centers are necessary to lure most jobs into the state.
2. Realize and accept the fact that focusing on a purely manufacturing based economy will continue to kill this state.
I see progress on both accounts but we are so far behind that it will be a rough go to get back to a respectable level on both accounts. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 3560
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 11:26 am: | |
damn you jt, i wanted to write that |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6804
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
I agree with you, Theje---(whoever you are!)
Pleasantville Livonia lost out because of their self isolation of not keeping up the metro-Detroit economic bandwagon. They get rid of SMART and did the very fine job of keeping blacks out. Quicken's C.E.O. made a risky decision to move to Detroit just like OCP Compuware. Their move with bring 4,000 new jobs to DETROIT! not to the suburbs or anywhere else. It's time Detroit to break away from the 1920's automation alley boomtown era. It's time for Detroit to break away from the 1930s depression era and it's time for Detroit to break away from the segregation on the 1950s and bring in the " true rennaisance for the 21st Century.
Detroit is where the action is. |
Mind_field
Member
Username: Mind_field
Post Number: 809
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
I think Mr. Gilbert has made a superior choice in relocating downtown. Now, the icing on the cake would be an L.E.E.D. gold or platinum certified building.
For those who don't know, LEED is the wave of the future of green design and sustainability. From NYC to LA and cities in between, many people are recognizing the benefits of LEED designed new construction in this new era of scarce resources amid a burgeoning global population and rising global consumption. Some features of LEED designed buildings include: Maximum usage of natural lighting, green roofs, rainwater capture for irrigation and internal water supplies, low environmental impact materials (recyclables, etc.), possible solar or wind power generation, low water flow fixtures, among others.
Now if we could get a striking, original architectural design for the hq, along with LEED certification, that would be the icing on the cake!
Just by locating downtown, Quicken is heading in the right direction. Using an existing brownfield site, using existing infrastructure, and encouraging office workers to get out of their cars and walk to the places they need to go, or at least use the people mover! |
Kid_dynamite
Member
Username: Kid_dynamite
Post Number: 384
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 11:54 am: | |
Mind field...that is one of the things that was hinted already.
(Message edited by kid dynamite on November 14, 2007) |
Mind_field
Member
Username: Mind_field
Post Number: 810
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
Excellent to hear that KD! I hear platinum certification is quite difficult to achieve, but any LEED certification will be a beacon for this region that is the antithesis of sustainability. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 377
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
Jt1,
I agree we are way behind and have a long way to go. However, we have an advantage on our side that is starting to rear its ugly head in other parts of the country.
WATER. No matter how much people lover warm climates, low tax rates, and other elements that draw business growth, there has to be infrastructure both man-made and natural to accommodate this growth. As we are starting to see not just in the Desert metropolitan areas like Phoenix, LA, as Las Vegas but also in the Southeast like in Atlanta.
Water, and the ability to get it is going to be the final say in how much those regions will be able to grow. However, the Great Lakes region, with its cheap and easy access to fresh water will become more attractive as a place for business and families to grow. |
Rfban
Member
Username: Rfban
Post Number: 196
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:28 pm: | |
Its funny what the car has done to us isn’t it? DEFINE PROGRESS!••• Just a mere century ago, in many ways we were much more ahead of our time than now. We had buildings with large windows to allow for natural light. We built with zoning densities that allowed the "most" for the "least" amount of space and we enriched our lives with architecture, public spaces and entertainment. In some cases buildings were even built with plumbing that captured rain water, like what we are trying to accomplish today!
When I read these articles and documents about L.E.E.D it always makes me rethink were in the hell we came from, where we are, and where were going. Naturally, I agree that this is a step in the right direction on so many levels. I think Quicken as well as the State of Michigan are planting seeds for regionalism (I am not saying they are the first though), and that is an awesome concept that we need so desperately in Southeastern MI.
Hopefully, in the future, we will all benefit from the decisions being made today. As someone mentioned before we should all be rooting for this transaction to take place and many more to come! EVERYBODY, including the bums on the street will benefit from a better economy. Just a tangent… |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2885
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:46 pm: | |
So, can anyone tell me what's really changed? Why is everyone so ecstatic about this announcement? As far as I can tell this is a premature regurgitation of what we already knew.
We knew Gilbert was negotiating with the City for the Statler or Hudson sites. We knew the State and City would give him a big bag of tax incentives to stay in the state.
This announcement seems to have less substance to it than the original Book Cadillac announcement. We all know what happened after the first BC announcement. The original deal feel apart and had to be done with a new developer.
This seems like an announcement that states they still don't know what they are going to do. We're still left with all the same questions that have been floating around for the last 3 years. Where? How big? When? How much are the incentives really going to cost? None of these very important questions have been answered. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10779
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:50 pm: | |
Why do my Cheerios taste like pee? |
Spiritofdetroit
Member
Username: Spiritofdetroit
Post Number: 712
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
However, according to Kilpatrick, they are contractually binded to the development of one site. I would like to get me hands on that contract, to see the potential consequences for sure |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 381
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:59 pm: | |
"So, can anyone tell me what's really changed? Why is everyone so ecstatic about this announcement? As far as I can tell this is a premature regurgitation of what we already knew."
Public acknowledgement goes a long way towards committment and follow-through.
Surprisingly, I agree with Daniel Howe's blog on the Detnews. It's not that this is going to magically create new jobs now. It's part of the bigger picture that people around Detroit need to buy into if we're going to get out of this funk the region is in.
As for incentives, who really cares? Incentives are a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition. VW anyone? Pfizer? Sometimes incentives work; sometimes they don't.
I get a good chuckle when people complain about corporate welfare from the government but scream and yell about the government not doing enough to keep jobs in the state or get employers to come to the state. Why transition your business to a state filled with a bunch of whiners?
If it was enough to keep the company in Michigan, it doesn't matter if it was Livonia, Detroit, Muskegon, or Hell. It's still in Michigan.
The fact of the matter is that most of the Ren Zones, etc., were already in place. Anyone could have taken advantage of them by moving their company to a Ren Zone. They are set up for that purpose. It's not just there for companies moving "to" Michigan.
As for why everyone is ecstatic, I think it varies by who you ask. For me personally, it's the idea that we'll have some sort of development downtown. Maybe they'll do something inspiring for their new HQ and operational center. Maybe it will inspire other businesses to take a risk and move downtown. It's a lot of maybe's but it beats the status quo.
As for cost, it's not significant. It probably will cost the state and city net of $140 million in tax revenue over 20 years. You cannot however, put a price on another peg coming into place in making Detroit a better city that is catching up with modern trends rather than reverting to parochial 1950's mentality again. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 379
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:08 pm: | |
UMCS is right.
The net cost of lost tax revenue works out to $7 million a year. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the city and the state's overall tax revenues. The amount of good that will come from this move will far outweigh the costs. |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2886
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
You picked up on one small detail of my post. I really don't care about the incentives. The question is what has really been announced?
Yes, Gilbert has signed an agreement with the city. But to do what? He has a year to decide between the sites. He has another 18 months after that for due diligence. You only do due diligence, if you have an escape clause. There's no point in doing due diligence if you don't have a way out.
So, this looks like Gilbert has two of the primest of prime properties in the city tied up for another two and half years without having to really do anything other than give a press conference.
Yes, I'd love for this to work. I just don't buy into every puff piece of propoganda thrown my way. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 382
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:32 pm: | |
"Public acknowledgement goes a long way towards committment and follow-through."
Gilbert is a businessman. Businessman have to be seen as being credible. If a businessman publicly announces something and then later goes back on it, it damages his credibility.
As to the contract, it's moot. He just bought an option correct? (By nature, an option is the legal right to purchase at a set price by a set date). Due diligence includes environmental issues, structural issues, feasibility studies, etc. If he didn't have a due diligence clause in the contract, he would be an absolute idiot. Due diligence escape clauses aren't the only "out" for a contract but they certainly allow one to get out without having to go to court. In this instance, if it is a true option contract, (not having seen it myself), the due diligence portion would seem to be there for purposes of liquidated damages, etc.
I'd see the 2.5 year timeline as nothing major; they've sat empty that long already with no takers. The other point is that adjoining real estate just got a proverbial bump in value just by the virtue of this propoganda / press release. Puffery is part of the game and Gilbert is known for being a showman. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2185
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:34 pm: | |
>The question is what has really been announced?
The announcement is that they are contractually obligated to develop at least one of two sites for their headquarters downtown. |
Eric
Member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 986
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:34 pm: | |
quote:So, can anyone tell me what's really changed? Why is everyone so ecstatic about this announcement? As far as I can tell this is a premature regurgitation of what we already knew.
What's changed is that they've finally come to terms on the incentive package no doubt the biggest hurdle in this entire deal. Gilbert has cleary agreed to move at least his own company downtown. But he has said he'd like to develop the site he doesn't pick for other companies( i.e ePrize) |
Mind_field
Member
Username: Mind_field
Post Number: 811
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 1:52 pm: | |
Injecting a dose of realism, those nasty escape clauses and other outs in the contract make this far from a done deal, etched in stone. There are many things that could still happen to derail this whole development, hopefully none of them come to fruition. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3995
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Hey Ndavies, would you bet against QL actually following through?
Eric has it right. We indeed know a lot more than before; KK wanted an announcement, at least making Gilbert's intentions clear, ASAP, and that makes sense. It's not propoganda, it's getting the news out there because that will increase the general "belief" in Detroit and probably have some economic effects for various aspects of the downtown market before ground is even broken. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3614
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 2:12 pm: | |
"You only do due diligence, if you have an escape clause. There's no point in doing due diligence if you don't have a way out. "
Isn't due diligence generally required by a contract? I don't see it as an escape clause to protect Gilbert as much as a promise to show an honest effort, for the city's protection. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3690
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:12 pm: | |
After giving it some thought, I believe I've come up with a way to address most of the concerns of the current suburban Quicken employees that I saw expressed on the Freep forums.
As you can see, in this plan there is ample parking, making the newcomers feel welcome, like they never even moved. There is also a large wall around the perimeter of the area to keep those "undesirables" out. I read a lot of concerns about needing guns and bullet proof vests to work in Detroit, so this should put the frightened suburbanites mind at ease. They can park anywhere they please, and don't have to see any city folk the whole time they are at work.
(Message edited by johnlodge on November 16, 2007) |
Rhymeswithrawk
Member
Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:27 pm: | |
My main worry about a Quicken site on Grand Circus is what might have to come down to support parking for 4,000 employees. It'd be nice if Ilitch sold them the Tuller site for a garage and connect it by a skywalk or something. While GCP can use some redevelopment (may spawn Broderick or Whitney renovations), it'd be nice if the girder farm on the Hudson's site finally bore fruit. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 2047
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:29 pm: | |
"girder farm"
LOL |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:58 pm: | |
Remember there is a fair amount of shift work. Not sure if it all overlaps. Ilitch would lease parking at the Fox garage. They could run very short shuttles from the Comerica/Ford Field, Gem Theatre garages or lease space in the Cobo area and take the people mover. Also most of these employees are young enough to walk 1 or 2 blocks, right? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6811
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:59 pm: | |
It would be better to have a Quicken HQ on the old Hudson's Block. Plenty of lower floor parking, future retail stores, next to OCP Compuware for employee relations and a add in future MACY's Dept. store outlet. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6812
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
A 150 story quicken HQ building will do. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 719
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:19 pm: | |
^^^That would be lovely. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5768
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:19 pm: | |
Danny...Danny...Danny, you know you can't have anything over 18-20 stories on the Hudson's "girder farm". (Love that name!)
Johnlodge... I love how the octagon top of the Broderick Tower is suspended over GCP in your "sea of parking" photo... sort of like the Joe Louis fist, but held up by levitation!
Rhymeswithrawk... a parking structure on the Tuller portion of the UA/Tuller block would be great if....
1) they faced the GCP side with condos on each floor of the structure (so it wouldn't appear as a parking structure from GCP) and ...
2) Quicken shared it on evenings/weekends with Red Wing games (at a west Foxtown arena) and Quicken Center (UA Theatre) events!  |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 721
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:27 pm: | |
Who says they must build on the Hudson Site Gistok? I say build on land that's the least desirable and the part of downtown that needs more life. Quicken building around GCP and Washington BLVD. would basically help add more life in downtown (between the Finance district and Entertainment district). |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5769
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:34 pm: | |
Detroitrise... read Danny's 2 comments... they're contradictory... he prefers the Hudson's block... and he prefers a 150 story building! |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 723
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:41 pm: | |
Ah, I see now. Yeah, I guess I skipped that first comment out of excitement for his next one. |
Atwater
Member
Username: Atwater
Post Number: 83
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:45 pm: | |
Johnlodge, great pic! |
Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2834
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 8:43 pm: | |
Gilbert was going to get incentives no matter where he went, MI or otherwise. 4000 relatively well paying jobs is big for many places.
At first I thought they should go to GCP, but now I think the Hudson's site. It looks goofy with the girders sticking out and a building there would give Woodward a better overall look. The GCP site could be used for lots of purposes. The Hudson site, given the 20 story + idea - how many Companies are going to come along and want a bldg that size? |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 384
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 8:54 pm: | |
Do you think it is possible to design a building where the main entrance to the building and the tower portion of the structure is on the GCP side of the building but for several floors in the back of the building there is an attached parking structure that can be entered and exited from Washington with more offices on top of it? This could do two things.
1. It would accommodate the parking without ruining the look of the building from GCP
and
2. It would mean that the tower would have to be even taller to give the building more "presence". |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 340
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 8:56 pm: | |
Johnlodge, that's freaking hilarious. Thanks for saving the library, too. |
Eric
Member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 992
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:58 am: | |
That thing looks like a Brooks Patterson wet dream. To be fair though, those comment seemed come from unaffiliated , suburbanite cranks who felt "sorry" for the workers. I saw more than a few Quicken works go on the forum and defend the move. |
French777
Member
Username: French777
Post Number: 264
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:01 am: | |
I wished they leased their parking out somewhere that the employee's would use the People Mover and put it to some use. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 736
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 10:26 am: | |
Kid-dynamite is right. ePrize and Fathead will be coming as well, it's sort of a given in this quote.
"One company expected to come with Gilbert is ePrize L.L.C., a Pleasant Ridge-based company that got a $32 million equity investment from a consortium of local investors in 2006 that included Gilbert. 'When he says, Who’s going with me? I have the feeling he’s looking right at me,' said ePrize CEO and founder Josh Linkner. 'It’s certainly something we’re considering, but we’re not ready to make any announcement. We’ve been able to take some more space in our building, and that buys us a little more time.'"
Not to mention that he could move Fathead where ever he wants since he's the CEO of it.
(Message edited by DetroitRise on November 17, 2007) |
Deandub11
Member
Username: Deandub11
Post Number: 174
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 8:01 pm: | |
Don't know if this was reported yet, but in this article, Gilbert says he has already received verbal commitments from three other companies since he announced he would be moving quicken downtown. He says that these companies are independent from companies that he owns.
Hopefully this link works for y'all.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 1118/EMAIL/311180020/-1/newsle tter02 |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2776
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 8:15 pm: | |
Interesting...it also sound like he wants to keep control of all 4 parcels, as opposed to an either-or approach
Man I wish I could fast-forward 5 years and see whether and how these projects will happen |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4025
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 8:26 pm: | |
He mentioned that the Broadway sites COULD be good for a parking garage.
Well, I guess it's better than surface parking. Broadway should let itself to other, more beautiful uses, IMO. |
Butkaeri
Member
Username: Butkaeri
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 8:31 pm: | |
Do they really need more parking when the huge Compuware garage is about 20 feet away? |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 753
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 8:39 pm: | |
I have a feeling one of the companies are Fifth-Third. He doesn't have a direct connection with them, but this would be big for Detroit because outside Cincinnati, we're their hub corporate offices. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4026
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 9:58 pm: | |
If they build on the Hudson's Block then parking on Broadway would be foreseeable, Butkaeri. I'd like to know how many spots are underground at Hudson's. Actually, one might think that the mostly vacant 1001 garage + Hudson's underground might suffice. We'll see.
There better not be any pedestrian bridges going above or through the Skillman Library branch! |
Atwater
Member
Username: Atwater
Post Number: 93
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 10:55 pm: | |
^"There better not be any pedestrian bridges going above or through the Skillman Library branch!"
lol, I can see it now, à la Greektown.
(Message edited by Atwater on November 18, 2007) |
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