  Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 581 Registered: 03-2006 |
http://www.popcitymedia.com/de velopmentnews/pittsburghbikes0 620.aspx I was wondering if anyone who is involved with the city knows what the real possibility of getting bike lanes or bus-only HOV lanes in major arteries like almost every other american city has. The only place I have seen bike lanes in Detroit is on Belle Isle | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1174 Registered: 07-2004 |
How about allowing bikes to be vehicles instead of relegating them to lanes? (Now standing back, knowing this is an ongoing debate among cyclists.) | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 582 Registered: 03-2006 |
please dont hijack this thread | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1175 Registered: 07-2004 |
Pretty please? AP: If somebody wants to start a thread asking how to do something, it's perfectly OK for somebody to wonder, "Is this desirable"? Happens all the time. It's called "discussion." | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 533 Registered: 12-2006 |
Nerd, Bicycles are certainly vehicles and are allowed in traffic. However (I have studied this a good bit) most people will not ride a bicycle if their only option is to ride in traffic on major streets. This is why so many cities, but (as usual) not Detroit, have provided bike lanes and/or bike paths: for that vast majority of potential bicyclists who will never ride if such facilities aren't provided. Very experienced bicyclists have no problem operating in traffic and see the bike lane as a form of being relegated to second-class citizenry, and while I see their point, from a public policy standpoint it makes sense to encourage rather than discourage bicycling among the public. Remember, Michigan is one of the top states for both childhood and adult obesity. We ought to be doing considerably more than we are to encourage "passive recreation", such as using a bicycle for a short to medium length trip. Bike lanes, properly designed and implemented, encourage this. Incidentally, Ferndale has a couple of miles of bike lane, if you didn't already know that. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1177 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thank you for encapsulating the debate so succinctly, Prof. I do believe that anything that keeps people from bicycling doesn't help. In that spirit, bike lanes might help, but remember, folks, you don't need a bike lane to bike. (Don't try it on the freeway, that's all.) But here's an interesting article from DER SPIEGEL that suggests that these "conveniences" actually encourage careless drivers to feel undue confidence. Controlled Chaos - European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs By Matthias Shulz Are streets without traffic signs conceivable? Seven cities and regions in Europe are giving it a try -- with good results. Drachten in the Netherlands has gotten rid of 16 of its traffic light crossings and converted the other two to roundabouts. "We reject every form of legislation," the Russian aristocrat and "father of anarchism" Mikhail Bakunin once thundered. The czar banished him to Siberia. But now it seems his ideas are being rediscovered. European traffic planners are dreaming of streets free of rules and directives. They want drivers and pedestrians to interact in a free and humane way, as brethren -- by means of friendly gestures, nods of the head and eye contact, without the harassment of prohibitions, restrictions and warning signs. A project implemented by the European Union is currently seeing seven cities and regions clear-cutting heir forest of traffic signs. Ejby, in Denmark, is participating in the experiment, as are Ipswich in England and the Belgian town of Ostende. The utopia has already become a reality in Makkinga, in the Dutch province of Western Frisia. A sign by the entrance to the small town (population 1,000) reads "Verkeersbordvrij" -- "free of traffic signs." Cars bumble unhurriedly over precision-trimmed granite cobblestones. Stop signs and direction signs are nowhere to be seen. There are neither parking meters nor stopping restrictions. There aren't even any lines painted on the streets. "The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible behavior," says Dutch traffic guru Hans Monderman, one of the project's co-founders. "The greater the number of prescriptions, the more people's sense of personal responsibility dwindles." Monderman could be on to something. Germany has 648 valid traffic symbols. The inner cities are crowded with a colorful thicket of metal signs. Don't park over here, watch out for passing deer over there, make sure you don't skid. The forest of signs is growing ever denser. Some 20 million traffic signs have already been set up all over the country. Psychologists have long revealed the senselessness of such exaggerated regulation. About 70 percent of traffic signs are ignored by drivers. What's more, the glut of prohibitions is tantamount to treating the driver like a child and it also foments resentment. He may stop in front of the crosswalk, but that only makes him feel justified in preventing pedestrians from crossing the street on every other occasion. Every traffic light baits him with the promise of making it over the crossing while the light is still yellow. "Unsafe is safe" The result is that drivers find themselves enclosed by a corset of prescriptions, so that they develop a kind of tunnel vision: They're constantly in search of their own advantage, and their good manners go out the window. The new traffic model's advocates believe the only way out of this vicious circle is to give drivers more liberty and encourage them to take responsibility for themselves. They demand streets like those during the Middle Ages, when horse-drawn chariots, handcarts and people scurried about in a completely unregulated fashion. The new model's proponents envision today's drivers and pedestrians blending into a colorful and peaceful traffic stream. It may sound like chaos, but it's only the lesson drawn from one of the insights of traffic psychology: Drivers will force the accelerator down ruthlessly only in situations where everything has been fully regulated. Where the situation is unclear, they're forced to drive more carefully and cautiously. Indeed, "Unsafe is safe" was the motto of a conference where proponents of the new roadside philosophy met in Frankfurt in mid-October. FULL ARTICLE AT: http://www.spiegel.de/internat ional/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00 .html | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 1092 Registered: 10-2003 |
I enjoyed all the cars parked in the bike lane on Belle Isle this weekend. Sure made getting around a little dicey and pissed of the motorists when I had to ride in a traffic lane for a bit. The bike lanes by the RenCen are usually blocked by limos and transport sedans. The drivers do not take kindly to requests to move from designated bike lane or have the police called. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1178 Registered: 07-2004 |
Just goes to show you: You can't legislate respect. | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2003 |
A bike lane may encourage people to think about taking a bike for their destination, but for my travels through Royal Oak, Mad Heights, Ferndale, and downtown Detroit, a bike lane wasn't necessary at all. There are so many accessible and tree-lined subdivision streets in the inner-burbs that getting from one place to another poses no problem at all. Biking downtown on a busy weekend can be tricky but I wouldn't consider it unmanageable. Now taking your bike from Royal Oak to downtown could be a bit much, but I've never done it. Also don't know if I would trust a bike lane on Woodward. I looked to take my bike on Amtrak from Royal Oak to downtown, but they are not allowed on any of the scheduled trains on that route. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1179 Registered: 07-2004 |
Not bike-lane specific, but an idea: Those who are leery of biking on a spoke road downtown may want to join up with those BIKE TO WORK organizers. They did a Woodward ride last year, and hoped to attract other organizers to take on other spoke roads. Should still be coming up, if I remember right. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 134 Registered: 10-2006 |
Perhaps there can be occasional caution signs in the city with some sort of symbol that notifies drivers that bikers are present on the streets. I generally get looked like as some sort of alien from drivers when biking downtown or they freak out that im riding next to them in the road. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 245 Registered: 06-2005 |
From Royal Oak to Downtown, I would suggest taking either Third or Oakland. The former's traffic to is similar to my Royal Oak subdivision street. Parts of Highland Park are "tired" but everyone's been friendly to me. (And if you're in luck, there will be a smoothie stand at Third and Puritan, or was it Pilgrim?) Oakland has a little more truck traffic but it's pretty vacant on the weekends. Dequindre is also another option but it's a little more disjointed of a route. Woodward is fun but it has more traffic and more lights. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 534 Registered: 12-2006 |
The Federal Highway Administration has guidelines for how best to accommodate bicyclists in the road right-of-way, and it varies based on the type of road (number of lanes, speed of motor vehicles and so on). Michigan has almost entirely ignored the guidelines, of course, which is why it is not particularly comfortable to ride a bicycle in many parts of Michigan compared to some other states. New York State, for instance, has 2000 miles of signed on-road bicycle routes maintained by NYSDOT on state roads, and many counties in that State have followed suit. Portland (Oregon) has developed a vast network of roads that have been improved to accommodate bicyclists, and has signed those routes. And so on. Michigan is still stuck on the idea that if you have to go someplace you had better drive a car, at least it seems that way to me. We have, in my opinion, a badly out-of-balance transportation network, and it is costing us dearly. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 535 Registered: 12-2006 |
Fishtoes, neither Third nor Oakland go anywhere near as far as Royal Oak. How would you bicycle from downtown R.O. to where Third or Oakland become available? | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 246 Registered: 06-2005 |
From Downtown Royal Oak, I usually go Washington Ave. to Woodward to Merrill Plaisance to Third. For those not hip to riding Woodward, the route is more convoluted. One can take Mortensen (in Berkley) to Scotia. Go east on Outer Drive, cross Livernois, turn right on Canterbury, turn left on 7 Mil, right on Pontchartrain, veer left on Merrill Plaisance and go south on Third. It's easier than it sounds. For Oakland, I take Woodward south, left on Church (just south of McNichols) and then right on Oakland. The beauty of riding in Detroit is it's usually a well-formed grid so there are many options. If you want to start with a group, there's this Wolverine ride which occurs this Saturday: Belle Isle Rides Third Saturday of each month, April through October. Start at Beverly school and passes through the Royal Oak Library parking lot. Starts at 7:30 am but may be adjusted in April and October to allow for additional day light/warmth.Speed: 16-20MPH. 62 miles from Beverly school, 52 miles from Royal Oak Library. Ride from the suburbs to the city and back. Participants should be comfortable with riding into the city in light traffic. Ride loops by City Airport, Grosse Pointe, laps Belle Isle, stops for coffee at Starbucks, returns thru the New Center area and Palmer Park. (Contact: Benjamin Lohrengel caadmanb@comcast.net) | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1792 Registered: 11-2003 |
Apbest, there was this Greenways initiative last year, which included maps of the existing and planned bike lanes in the city. (Some are special bike paths such as the riverwalk, others are just regular bike lanes on roads. Most of them don't exist yet.) http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/pl andevl/advplanning/green/defau lt.htm http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/pl andevl/advplanning/green/pdf/m ap_city_overview.pdf | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 536 Registered: 12-2006 |
I was involved with the Greenways initiative. Lest people get too excited, all we did was prioritize which bike routes we would like to see in the region. Nobody has, so far as I could tell, any plan (or even intention) to implement any of it whatsoever. Fishtoes, thanks for the ride directions. I've never done that route and I will have to try it. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1793 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yeah, "proposed" would probably be a better term than "planned". Although the pdf map does use the term "planned" for some of the paths, and there are actual plans for a few paths such as the Dequindre cut... | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 71 Registered: 07-2006 |
RO to Downtown I would take woodward/main st south to oakland park, in pleasant ridge. go west to pinecrest, turn south for the bike lane, take pinecrest to 9 mile, go east to livernois, livernois south past 8 mile to pembroke, cut through sherwood forest on canterbury, this lets you out on 7 mile, 7 mile east to hamilton, hamilton all the way south to chicago, chicago east to third, third to grand river, which lets you in to downtown. personally I really don't think Detroit needs bike lanes. We've got so much surface streets and so few people using it already. I would rather see money go towards road resurfacing so it's not such a bumpy bike ride. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1183 Registered: 07-2004 |
Any volunteers want to sweep down the sidewalk on Mt. Elliot between 94 and Hamtramck Drive with me? We could just take it over and make it a bike lane. Much cheaper and easier than nagging the city to do it for us. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 942 Registered: 06-2004 |
This is why I want to ban private ownership of automobiles. I HATE the automobile. In regard to the Der Spiegel article, that sounds interesting but can you imagine the short term carnage while the drivers of Southeast Michigan adjusted to the new reality? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1187 Registered: 07-2004 |
Ray: Can it get any worse? 02/09/2006 Detroit tops U.S. big cities in rate of pedestrian deaths BY JOCELYN PARKER FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER City and state officials are baffled as to who Detroit rates as the most dangerous for pedestrians among large U.S. cities in a federal government study to be released today. "Obviously, these are tragic numbers, ones that all traffic safety and law enforcement officials need to act on to promote safety in the future," said Liz Boyd, a spokeswoman for Gov. Jennifer Granholm. Boyd, however, said she couldn't explain Detroit's dismal death rate among walkers. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration study looked at pedestrian fatality rankings for all U.S. cities with a population of 100,000 or more, based on yearly averages from 1998 to 2000. In a portion of the study analyzing cities with populations greater than 500,000, Detroit had the highest fatality rate with 5.05 deaths per 100,000 population, two times higher than New York City. Highway safety officials said they didn't have specific information about why Detroit had a higher rate than other large cities, but experts say a lack of sidewalks and crosswalks, as well as urban sprawl, are making Detroit roads among the most dangerous in the nation for walkers. http://walksquawk.blogs.com/th ewalkingproject/2006/02/detroi t_tops_us.html | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 366 Registered: 11-2003 |
Maybe the cause is that Detroit has the most stupidest pedestrians among U.S. big cities. Or maybe Detroiters like hanging out in the middle of the road more than people in other big cities. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 539 Registered: 12-2006 |
Detroit has vast numbers of drivers that routinely exceed the speed limit since it is rarely enforced. Detroit has lots of wide streets with no median that older and disabled people can't cross in the amount of time allowed. Detroit, lacking decent transit, has more cars on the road than similar size cities. It's silly to blame the pedestrians; they are equally stupid in every city. | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 259 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroit has twice the pedestrian deaths of New York City? That is hard to believe. It seems the NYC papers are filled every week with a tragic incident involving someone getting hit crossing the street or by a car jumping the curb. Even as a resident of twenty-plus years, I still get those close calls now and then. It's incredible how Detroit manages to find its way to the top of a statistic like this one. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 540 Registered: 12-2006 |
Detroit does not have twice the pedestrian deaths as New York. Detroit has twice the deaths per capita. That's a big difference; still bad, but a big difference. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 1136 Registered: 01-2006 |
With the gas prices being so high, I think it's fair to assume that bike traffic will increase, especially in the downtown area, where some people may reside in a place so relatively close to their place of work that riding a bike to work just makes good sense. However, this growing trend may take some "getting used to." I work downtown, and I admit that I found myself feeling a bit annoyed (oh yeah, like that never happens) at the bike rider pedalling right in the middle of a traffic lane on Fort Street at 6:30 A.M. I realize that he had the right to use some road surface, just like me, but there is also the matter of obstruction. If the traffic on a road is travelling in the range of, let's say, 25-35 MPH, we really can't have bike riders pedalling along right in the middle of a traffic lane. On a related note, Detroit drivers have become more erratic, these last few years. (Cell phone use, blunt smoking, and various forms of general dementia and rudeness all being on the upswing.) I worry that the generally decreased attention to one's immediate surroundings, on the part of drivers, combined with the generally increased amount of bike traffic, will add up to the obvious tragic result. The guy riding right down the middle of a lane on Fort Street was the type of dumbass which will make the whole situation worse, of course. However, I saved the best for last... This past Sunday, I'm driving south-east on Grand River, at about 6:25 A.M., and I am near Trumbull, on which I am going to turn. There is an adult male, dressed in a suit, walking (very purposefully, not stumbling or scuffling) RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE LANE I'M IN, TOWARD ONCOMING TRAFFIC. I'm thinking, Does this guy WANT to be run over? Is he some off-his-meds loony who, by doing things like this, proves to himself that he does, in fact, rule the world? Hey God, can I run him over, huh, please, can I, can I? ...I kept right on driving in the lane, curious to see how long it would take for him to jump out of the way, but he looked awfully resolute about what he was doing, so I had to surrender... I just wanted to share that story, in case he was one of YOU guys... | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1188 Registered: 07-2004 |
What? Didn't you like my suit? | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 1139 Registered: 01-2006 |
Ah!! That's it!! Dude thought he was on a fashion runway!! | ||
Jme1405 Member Username: Jme1405 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
I'm associated with an organization called Urban Trails and Waterways of SE Michigan. We are actually trying to create a Greenway in the City of Detroit which would utilize the right of way of the old (and now formally abandoned)Detroit Terminal Railroad. We have been soliciting signatures for a Community Policy Statement favoring this. Is it ok to post the statement and ask if others would like to sign? Not too sure about the etiquette of this. Perhaps others could advise me. Also, is one required to remain anonymous? I'd just as soon use my own name but I don't want to do the wrong thing. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 548 Registered: 12-2006 |
Do you have a website, JME? I'm not entirely sure of the etiquette question. Posters on this board have varying degrees of etiquette  You may want to ask Lowell, the blogmeister, what he thinks about using this blog for that purpose. | ||
Jme1405 Member Username: Jme1405 Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2004 |
No website I'm sorry to say but I can be reached at jme1405@aol.com. If you're interested I'll be happy to send you the Community Policy Statement. I'll try checking with Lowell as soon as I figure out how to do it. You can see I'm a real beginner at this. |
