  Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2007 |
Well, the economy in SE Massachusetts is continuing to slow down. For sale signs everywhere, houses aren't selling, people simply aren't spending. Sound eerily familiar? Quaker Fabrics, once a thriving textile manufacturing company here in Fall River which produces broadcloth for automobile seats is in bankruptcy...and liquidating their remaining assets. They sold the plant down the street now its going to be a church (nothing at all against church and worship, but no tax revenue will be generated at all. So many workers lost their jobs with more to come. Management states they simply cannot compete with China. Vanson Leathers, a well known leather company that produces high quality motorcycle jackets and attire has also filed the chapter from what I'm told. There used to be huge floors of workers busy at their sewing machines producing garments, and bustling bundles of leather being carted up and down the halls. Now that's all down to but only a handful of workers. I was talking to a fellow who works for a small company who dis-assembles used manufacturing equipment. Foreign investors are cheaply buying up all of the looms from Quaker fabrics and other defunct textile factories in the area. They are all being shipped to Pakistan. What is going to happen? Fall River, Mass. has always been a depressed area. My late grandfather who lived through the depression used to remind us of that all the time. He also preducted that a depression would surely come again. He believed that we (the younger generation) weren't at all prepared to deal with a depression because we were used to having it easy. He died a few years ago, after living a very lengthy and healthy life of 88 years. Could his prophecy come true? Will it happen again like in 1929? What are the typical Americans: "Joe Lunch pail" honest and willing workers like me and others supposed to do to earn a living if this epidemic continues? Why do we allow this injustice to continue? We seem to be transforming into a third world country where the minority are filthy rich, and the rest of us are poor, barely hanging on.... remembering the "good times" as being able to live paycheck to paycheck.. without worry in knowing that your bills were covered and still being able to go out to a restaurant on Friday night and a movie here and there and then spend a little at the mall...all without having to use credit cards. Insurance, property taxes, electricity rates, fuel, home heating oil, and health care costs continue to skyrocket...How will be survive? Americans deserve far better than this. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2492 Registered: 12-2005 |
Lobsterpots, welcome to the forum and thanks for the report. We'd likely never hear of these events otherwise. My parents gave their children the same warning. It's not a question of if, but of when, there will be another depression. If "honest and willing workers" ever get pushed to the point of violence, well, it will be a sad day for us all.  | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1228 Registered: 10-2006 |
Just the progression of Capitalism: http://www.driftline.org/cgi-b in/archive/archive_msg.cgi?fil e=spoon-archives/marxism-intro .archive/marxism-intro_2000/ma rxism-intro.0010&msgnum=5&star t=407&end=439 It has been predicted for over a hundred years. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 77 Registered: 06-2007 |
communist rhetoric. wow. I thought you guys were pretty much evaporated by now. The reds havent had a whole lot of good luck these past few decades, huh? You still have Cuba, though! | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1229 Registered: 10-2006 |
Anything that someone predicts a hundred years in advance should at least be slightly listened to even if you have a different viewpoint, no? | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 550 Registered: 07-2006 |
Lobsterpots, welcome. Part of me feels pity for those affected by things like this. I only see it getting worse. Manufacturing, and therefore adding value to something, is the lifeblood of any healthy economy. When that is gone, what will replace it? an 'information economy'? What the hell is that? What does that create that someone else needs? Not to mention, the unemployed workers rarely have the skills or experience that the 'information economy' wants anyways. You're right, another depression is coming, and Michigan's problems are just the beginning of it. Wall Street applauds companies when they reduce costs by cutting workers and moves production overseas, but at the same time, it was those same workers that BOUGHT the products. Eventually enough of these middle class workers will be gone that these companies are going to suffer. many already are, and have had to cut costs (workers), creating a nasty spiral. But the same investors that demanded you cut costs won't care much at that point, because they will have already moved on to the next company, having already padded their pockets with the profits from their last victim. Short term profits are the only thing that matter anymore, and it's destroying the middle class. Some will argue that pension funds depend on these profits and BS like that - but they rarely mention that that these unemployed workers often lose their pensions, or had them drastically cut, if they ever even had one in the first place, and eventually you realize that in the end, it's all about stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. But then, another part of me doesn't really give a damn, cause it seems the rest of the country hasn't really given a damn about the state of Michigan lately either. This has been our reality for years. Even that part of me is sorry to see it happen to others, but it doesn't make me feel any better about our own situation. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 988 Registered: 12-2005 |
I think the folks who espoused that "prediction" (more like a theory to me) have seen their own alternative economic theories fail, so no, regardless of my viewpoint, I don't think we need to "slightly listen" to it. Some citizens of North Korea and Cuba as just dying to get out of their theoretical workers paradise and give capitalism a try. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 835 Registered: 10-2003 |
Just for the record, Communism has never really existed. Neither has a true free-market. The countries mentioned here as being communist are really just Totalitarian regimes calling themselves Communists. Don't look at me like that, I'm not advocating it. Just stating the facts. ;) | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 607 Registered: 05-2005 |
Actually, communism has existed in it's first phase in scores of countries - "dictatorship of the proletariat", at least according to Marx. Communisms' "first phase" produced winners like Stalin, Kim Jong and Pol Pot and has starved, killed and exterminated several hundred million people in the process. Not many people left that would freely choose the communist route, but I can see it appealing to the losers and bottom-feeders of capitalist society. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 2 Registered: 06-2007 |
Sales at the store that I work have been off for about two years now. With next year being an election year I dont think its going to be much better either. In the past we've usually gone on a vacation in July. A week long or more road trip to Hershey Park, Kings Dominion, Bush Gardens. When everything is said and done. Between hotels, gas, admission into the park, admission for this and that...$10.00 hamburgers inside the park, tourist trap prices, I have spent on average between $2000-$2500. I usually have been able put aside money here and there throughout the year, and it works out and its a fun time. This year is an entirely different story. I haven't been able to put aside much vacation money. So I talked it over with my daughter, and we decided on a vacation to Detroit. She's delighted that we are going on a trip, and likes the idea. Yep, we are going to be your guests in your city the last week of July. Got the Sprit airlines $47 per person each way BOS-DTW tix, a great rate on which looks like a fine hotel and car rental. We plan to go to the Science Museum, Ford Museum, Motown, check out Greektown, Belle Island, Renaissance center, all of it. and do fun yet educational things for a change. I have chosen to spend my hard earned money in Detroit, your city. We are thrilled. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4366 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hope you enjoy your trip here lobster and will take back with you more positive things to negate the negative viewpoints that people outside of SE Michigan have of the D! | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 837 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Actually, communism has existed in it's first phase in scores of countries - "dictatorship of the proletariat", at least according to Marx. Communisms' "first phase" produced winners like Stalin, Kim Jong and Pol Pot and has starved, killed and exterminated several hundred million people in the process. " "Dicatorship of the Proletariat" actually refers to the transition period between capitalism and communism, and addresses the fact that the proletariat needs control of the State in order to "supress the opressers". It assumes those in power are not going to leave willingly, nor are they just going to roll over and submit once they've been ousted. It is more a statement of the obvious than anything else. As for Stalin and Pol Pot, it was not rich bourgeois they were killing by the millions. Seizing the government and ousting the previous powers is not a first step that is unique to a Communist revolution. Any revolution requires this. "Phase One" is actually the implementation of the socialistic economic system. It explains that during this time, unjust differences in wealth will still persist, but the exploitation of man by man will have become impossible because it will be impossible to seize the means of production--the factories, machines, land, etc.--and make them private property. Don't start a red file on me, I'm no commie, just a history nerd in general. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2384 Registered: 06-2004 |
Hey Lobsterpots - don't forget the Historical Museum, the Wright African American Museum, and, if you have a couple of hours, the Arab American Museum - it's not very large but it gives a different perspective than what's shoved by the media. And how are tours of Second Baptist done? Do they have to be group tours scheduled in advance? | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4367 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes they do Lil....i go to that church... Definately check out the bookstore there... | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 1998 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: Sure, that's what they all say.  | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1230 Registered: 10-2006 |
Don't get me wrong; I love Capitalism. Arguably to overly simplify it, Capitalism is what made Detroit. It is what built so much of what we love about the city. Also, too, it seems that Capitalism has taken back some over the last several years... | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 434 Registered: 04-2006 |
Not only in Detroit but in Livonia. Your NO vote in August 2010 will demand the return of state funding for jobs and public buses. The restoration of State funding for SMART means more jobs. Vote for jobs by checking NO. | ||
Mountainman Member Username: Mountainman Post Number: 133 Registered: 02-2006 |
Economy is definitely slowing down out here in Bozeman, MT. Used to be a time (about 3 yrs ago) when you saw a house for sale it would be gone in about a month. I've now seen homes on the market for about a year and the prices slowly dropping. A friend of mine recently told me their home's value went down close $80,000 over the last year and an half. Trainman, good to see you're still at it. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 726 Registered: 11-2006 |
Real estate is down for sure, not the economy in general. Real estate is going through a burst bubble with unrealistically low interest rates rebounding upward. Refinances have all but disappeared (why refinance at a higher rate?). Cash withdrawals from equity have gone with the refi's, so upgrading is also stalled. The whole chain of events get's gummed up into a viscous cycle. Values go down (some would call it a "correction" after a bubble), so those who took out equity when the time was ripe find that the real money is no longer there. Eventually, it will cycle out....best strategy is, and was, to be more conservative, avoid getting house poor, settle in where you are, don't get antsy, and ride it out. Not to diminish that it will be very rough for some folks to do this. Worse still, the banks are waking up to the fact that they are saddled with huge inventories of foreclosed homes. They will be very cautious loaning money out in fear of more of the same. Some folks can take advantage, those not currently owning, with steady income, good credit, and looking for a good deal. Also, the really wealthy looking to buy low, wait it out, and sell high later (much later however). | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2007 |
I think Detroit will make a rebound. I wish I knew the answer to how it will happen. Im sickened by these foreign imports coming into the country and all of these manufacturing jobs gone. Its almost like the government is doing this on purpose. Its like they want us to stop making products. Take for instance my vehicles. I have a 2002 Chevy Trailblazer. I bought it brand new for 31k. and I recently paid it off. You know, I was at the car dealer getting my headlight bulb replaced and I asked what it was worth the sales manager showed me the book $6200. The truck is mint cond, with low miles. He told me I should have bought a Toyota or Honda, as they hold their values much better and are much nore reliable. Its a fact that there are much more foreign cars on the road here. now. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 868 Registered: 11-2006 |
The government should not be involved in private enterprise to the extent that it is and that is a large part of the problem. The other big part is organized labor not being flexible and competitive in terms of labor. There has been some improvements on the union issue, and if you noticed the turnaround at GM (and possibly Ford) began precisely after big union concessions came through. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 6 Registered: 06-2007 |
I think that things started to fall apart when these imports started flooding this country. Not just cars, but clothing, apparel, appliances. It seemed to have started with cheap prizes you won at carnivals and such had that oval gold foil label marked Made In China... many years ago. But now, even food is coming from there. The town that I live in now, Randolph MA, was once a major shoe manufacturing town. Thats been gone for years and years. I manage a retail shoe store. EVERYTHING is China now. Even popular well known American brands such as Timberland, Red Wing, Chippewa, etc. This has to stop. If I were in charge, I would hault the incoming flow of ALL imports of manufactured goods, or place such a huge tariff on them that they would not be attractive to the American consumer. Force companies to manufacture here and put Americans back to work. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 884 Registered: 11-2006 |
I have a better idea. Gradually limit imports from China to equal exports to China (from here), which China has declined to do. The more they import from us, the more they can export. Regulatory standards (applied to both import and domestic products) will need to be imposed (as they already are). | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 7 Registered: 06-2007 |
This is horrible. http://online.wsj.com/article/ SB118047548069017647.html?ref= patrick.net | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 885 Registered: 11-2006 |
A nationwide problem, more acute in some areas (Detroit being one of them). It will correct itself in time, painful for those caught in the middle, without doubt. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 8 Registered: 06-2007 |
Its just sad. It seems as though there's little or no Government interest in domestic issues. Things continue to deteriorate from sea to shining sea, while all the current administration does is focus and spend on Iraq and our soldiers continue to die. and so many of our cities erode, jobs dry up, kids take to crime drugs and gangs,and thus more murders and such in our cities. Two gang murders in Randolph mass in less than two weeks. Its moved to the suburbs now. This was unheard of before. Generally in certain low income sections of Boston. But even so, it shouldn't be happening anywhere. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 59 Registered: 07-2006 |
Hey Lobsterpots, Did you even think about going online to Edmonds or Kelly Blue Book to see what the REAL value of your vehicle is instead of asking a DEALER??? So the Chevy dealer said you should have bought another manufacturers car?? AND you can't replace a headlight bulb? | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 9 Registered: 06-2007 |
i coudn't replace the bulb because the whole assembly had to come out and I didnt have any tools with me. and I was driving through CT that night and the state police are really tough, so I paid the 34 bucks. There was nobody at the dealership either, and the lot was strangely empty, hardly any floorplan not at all what I recalled it being. Yeah, I checked out www.kbb.com, value is pretty low considering the condition. and I also checked Ebay as well.I like it its a Chevy Traiblazer. I think im going to keep it rides great but crappy gas milage. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 61 Registered: 07-2006 |
I apologize that I misread that you said "You know, I was at the car dealer getting my headlight bulb replaced and I asked what it was worth the sales manager showed me the book $6200. The truck is mint cond, with low miles. He told me I should have bought a Toyota or Honda, as they hold their values much better and are much nore reliable. My bad. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 10 Registered: 06-2007 |
He kept on showing me this mercedes that just came in on trade. I wasn't impressed. He said that the dealer has twelve stores and carrys most all brands. I'm partial to General Motors products. In fact everyone in my family has had good luck with them. Do most people who live in Detroit drive American cars? I would think it would be an insult to drive around Detroit in a foreign car. It's like last year I went on a business trip to Minn. to the Red Wing plant because my store sells so may Red Wings. I wouldn't have worn a pair of Chippewas in the plant. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2007 |
Well a couple of weeks Ill be on vacation to Detroit. I want to make it a point to check out the houses on Boston-Edison and Palmer Woods. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 229 Registered: 02-2006 |
I don't think I saw it mentioned - but definitely check out the Henry Ford in Dearborn in addition to the Detroit attractions. I took some out-of-towners to the Rouge Factory Tour over Memorial Day. It was outstanding and totally worth admission. Really gives you a warm a fuzzy feeling about Detroit and automobile manufacturing. Glad to see someone vacationing in Detroit. Lots to do here, you just have to be willing to look for it. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 922 Registered: 06-2004 |
Oh, my God. How many times must this tripe be refuted? 1. US manufacturing output is at or near its all time high. 2. The US share of global manufacturing is down only a percentage point or two since 2000... this in the face of exploding Chinese production. 3. The fundamental "problem" is that technology has made Joe Six Pack's job obsolete. In 1900, 80% of the country was actively engaged in farming. Today it's 3%. Why? Technology makes a farm worker that much more productive. We simply don't need 200 million farm hands anymore. In 1950, something like 35% of the work force as engaged in factory work. Today it's down to something like 10% and will be below 5% in the near future. All the while, FACTORY OUTPUT IN THE US HAS EXPLODED with vastly MORE GOODS made with a fraction of the workers. 4. There is NO national recession. The macro-economic statistics available in each issue of the WSJ will confirm this to any reasonable person's satisfaction. Anecdotally, I travel all over the country, and everywhere I go, I ask people how they think the economy is going. Waitresses, hotel clerks, cashiers at 7-11, lawyers, you name it. "Fine!" they all say. I ask them if they are aware of the terrible recession Michigan. "No," they answer. Nobody outside of Michigan complains about the economy today. This is a Pure Detroit cluster fxck. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 923 Registered: 06-2004 |
And in response to those who would reduce imports to put American's "back to work" (not sure why this is such an urgent priority with unemployment well below post-War average), what will happen is that the price of these goods will double or tripple, effectively slashing the purchasing power of the average consumer. Household items available at Walmart for $10, will cost $30. This is effectively a massive cut in real wages for "working Americans" the same bunch who are supposedly getting "poorer" every year and on whose behalf the most heartfelt efforts of the left are supposedly expended. Also, before you start a trade war, consider this: for decades, the US has been the world's LARGEST EXPORTER. China has recently taken the top spot, but we are still a close second. So, besides depriving consumers of affordable products, you would crush export industries, which tend to be our highest value, highest paying jobs. Finally, global trade is lifting hundreds of millions (perhaps soon billions) of people out of abject poverty so brutal that the average unemployed autoworker cannot even imagine it. Boy, what fxcking disaster for humanity it will be if the demoguages in the Democratic party and their lame brain supporters do anything to reduce trade. Even Bill Clinton understood how crucial trade is. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2007 |
Ray, Those last two posts frankly, have no factual basis, are completely unsupported by a full analysis of actual global economic data and are, as is usual, based more in politics than facts. Lobsterpots original post and observations are wrong you're saying? My personal experience in the South contradicts your theory as well. Fact is, it's much more complicated than politicians can possibly dumb down for a 60 second blurb. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1283 Registered: 10-2006 |
If you can't afford your house, sell it! It's almost that simple. Then you will avoid foreclosure of the home that you could never afford in the first place. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 928 Registered: 06-2004 |
UMCS, There is ample, nearly uncontroverted evidence for everything I've said. Here's the support on the second post: 1. US is top exporter. From the OECD, one of the word's most trusted sources for macro economic statistics: http://stats.oecd.org/wbos/viewhtml.aspx?queryname=336&querytype=view&lang=en US exports in goods for 2006 are $904 billion (up from $731 billion in 2001) and in services are $380 billion (up from $286 billion in 2001). Germany's exports are $977 in goods and $154 in services. According to the CIA World Fact Book, China's exports in 2006 were $974 billion and rising. It is thought that China will overtake Germany in 2007 to become the worlds largest exporter of goods. So, I am mistaken when I said China has overtaken the US in exports. When you include services, the US is still the world's leading exporter. The US Department of Commerce Reported that US exports were 11% of GDP, the "highest ever" and are up 10% annually through Feb. 2007. http://www.commerce.gov/opa/press/Secretary_Gutierrez/2007_Releases/April/13_Export_FactSheet.pdf 2. Global Trade Lifting Millions Out of Poverty. contentMDK:20195240~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:336992%2C00.html,http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTPOVERTY/0,,contentMDK:20195240~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:336992,00.html The World Bank reported in 2004: * East Asia was the poorest region in the world twenty years ago. Today, it is leading the developing world in economic growth and poverty reduction. * Dramatic economic growth in the region has pulled MORE THAN 500 MILLION PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY, and the GDP per capita tripled. The proportion of people living in extreme poverty fell from 58 to 16 percent. * China alone lifted about 400 million of people out of absolute poverty. GDP per capita increased five times since 1981. The number of extremely poor people fell from over 600 million to slightly more that 200 million, or from 64 percent to 17 percent. * This progress was fueled by economic reforms, openness to markets and competition, focus on private initiative and market mechanisms. 3. Third World Poverty is so Brutal, the average unemployed autoworker cannot even imagine it. According to the BBC, 25,000 people starve to death every day throughout the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2818615.stm As a cause of death in the US, starvation is essentially NONEXISTENT apart from I guess Terry Shivo. I combed through the CDC and other gov't sites and could not find evidence of starvation deaths in the US. See, e.g., http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/other/atlas/atlas.htm I could go on and on. An urban slum in the third world makes the poorest part of Detroit look like a four star luxury resort. For example, people in Detroit do not drink water contaminated with human shit and other raw sewage, as is common in poor countries. Nor do they live with 5 people in a single room. 4. Cheap Imports expand purchasing power of working Americans: Well, duh. I'll try to quantify it later. 5. Our exports are our highest paying / highest value jobs: According to the Economist Pocket World in Figures for 2007, US goods exports are: Capital Goods $331 billion Industrial Supplies $203 billion Consumer Goods $102 billion Vehicles $88 billion Food $56 billion A detailed breakdown is available at http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_release/ft900.pdf. You will see that things like telecommunications, semiconductors, computer equipment, aircraft and other advanced technology goods are some of our best exports. 6. Unemployment well below post-War average.  Source: Department of Labor | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 929 Registered: 06-2004 |
The weakest part of my post was the assertion that prices at Walmart would double or tripple. I base that in my own personal experience. In 1972, I purchased a bike for $65. In 2004, I purchased a nearly identical bike for my son at Walmart (made in China) for $30. The price of the bike over 32 years had DECLINED by 50%. In real terms, the price has declined by much more. I suspect that the cost of many goods manufactured in China would double or triple if made in the US. But I am still searching for support for this proposition. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2007 |
There are not any vacant factories in the US. It is all merely a figment of our imagination. Everything is wonderful..All is A-OK. Your graphs charts and numbers make it so. You need a wake up call buddy cause someones feeding you a load of s**t and your buying it...this country is a MESS. I don't give a rats ass about lifting Chinese, Japanese or Dirty Knees people out of poverty. My concern is America, my country. Our people on a path to being a third world country. Keep imports out of our country and put Americans back to work. I'm all set with your $10 dollar Wal Mart junk also. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 891 Registered: 11-2006 |
It is a labor cost inequity issue. The part that we can do something about is to dissolve union establishments. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 698 Registered: 10-2003 |
I bet that Ray has read:"The Wealth of Nations" -Adams Smith. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 913 Registered: 11-2006 |
How do you determine the "near identical" quality? | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 930 Registered: 06-2004 |
I'm not saying that the US does not face challenges on the manufacturing front, but the fact that factories have closed cannot obviate the undeniable fact that US exports of manufactured goods are at an all time high (see above for authority) or that US manufacturing output is at or near an all time high. The Federal Reserve reports recently that US manufacturing output in real terms is up 12% since 2000. http://www.federalreserve.gov/ releases/G17/Current The US share of global manufacturing output in 2004 was 22.4%, up slightly form 22.3% in 1995 Source: United Nations Industrial Development Organization. The Federal Reserve reports that US industrial production in real terms has risen significantly since 1972 and is at or near its all time high: http://www.federalreserve.gov/ releases/g17/gvp.htm Your observation of closed factories is more indicative: (a) the effect of technology in rendering older plants obsolete and in requiring significantly fewer workers to achieve required output (b) of the loss of low value industries in which the US has no competitive advantage; and (c) the crappy business climates and labor culture in places like MI and MA. Also, I do not think one can discount 500 million East Asians being lifted out of poverty as irrelevant simply because they are not Americans. Their lives have equal value to people living in the US, who on the whole eat more, live in better housing, earn more, travel more and consume more than virtually any other people on earth. The real problems facing US manufacturing are: (a) badly managed automotive OEMs; (b) inflexible labor unions; (c) health care costs; (d) poor educational attainment by US workers; and (e) an over-valued dollar caused by low rates of savings and deficit spending in the US. These are the targets for improving the condition of US manufacturing, not a reduction in trade. Since only a tiny fraction of US workers are engaged in sunset industries that you describe (perhaps less than 5%), what you are really proposing is that the vast majority of American consumers subsidize the inflated $65 per hour labor costs of UAW workers by using tariffs to limit cheap imports and shield unproductive domestic manufacturers from competition. I don't think that's either fair or good for the country. Rant and rave all you want, but unless you're saying the Fed, OECD and the Dept of Labor are lying about US industrial output, your argument is without foundation. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 936 Registered: 10-2003 |
The US economy by almost every measure continues to be booming. Outside of MI, you will find anecdotal situations that contradict this that are essentially irrelevant... they remain a small percentage of the total economic picture. The bottom line is that unemployment remains at historically low levels. There are jobs available and plenty of opportunities for investment. Best to ignore the naysayers and enjoy the ride. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1949 Registered: 12-2003 |
You need to face the fact that the glory days of manufacturing are over. They are not going to return. Productivity and Efficiency are replacing jobs, that is just way the economy evolves. Time to finally get on the train that the rest of the US has been telling you about since 1970. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 2 Registered: 06-2007 |
Three articles that may be fairly enlightening to those who have only heard simplistic, manufacturing is dead, long live the information economy and the deficit. I still maintain there is no simple solution and politics is wrong to attempt to pass off politics as economics. This is merely one article questioning the rise in GDP for manufacturing in the U.S. http://www.businessweek.com/ma gazine/content/07_25/b4039001. htm?chan=search This series of articles on democratic capitalism addresses and raises issues that are not easily addressed in bite-size chunks. I don't agree with all of it, but I have yet to see many people address the core concerns raised regarding potential issues espoused by die-hard Adam Smith adherents. http://www.democratic-capitali sm.com/chptrs/chptr6.htm Lastly, and personally, I trust Warren Buffett's appraisal of the situation from 4 years ago and the potential solution he espouses, despite the fact it may violate the WTO agreements we're in. The logic is fairly simple (for Buffett). http://www.pbs.org/wsw/news/fo rtunearticle_20031026_03.html | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 934 Registered: 06-2004 |
UMCS, If the Business Week article is right (and they seem to be a bit out on a limb), then the data I rely on is wrong and we are in fact fucked. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2007 |
Hi, I am new to this forum. I am a former Detroiter and Grand Rapidian now living in Minneapolis. I am looking to retire in Ghana in about 20 years or so. Anyway, I was inspired to join the forum do to this debate about the economic state of the country. All I can say is that lobster is on point. I would like to note that GDP for the first quarter of this year was revised down to .06 rate of growth and I seriously doubt that Michigan’s economy has the influence to drag down National GDP to such a degree. I doubt that it is true that Michigan is the only state in recession given the revisions/adjustment to GDP. Our nation has gone from being the world’s largest creditor nation to being the world’s largest debtor nation. Our nation has gone from running trade surpluses to a 25 year streak of trade deficits. Our dollar is steadily falling (depreciating) against world currencies, which make imports more expensive and our exports more attractive to foreign buyers in theory, yet we continue to run trade deficits. The saving rate of Americans is at or below zero. The federal government has debt in the trillions. We have future unfunded liabilities of Medicaid and social security that requires tax increases in order to meat the promise. We have an endless war on terror and its funding. We have a housing market, which constituted over 40% of GDP growth since 2000, in crisis. We have rapidly rising energy cost, higher education cost, health care cost and food cost. We have a government under reporting inflation by focusing on the “core” rate of inflation which understates inflation and overstates, as the corollary, GDP growth rates. We have a nation that has lost what Adam Smith calls “Comparative advantage” to rising nations in many tradable goods. We have a government that recently stopped giving out information about how many dollars its printing by from henceforth hiding M3 (the broadest measure of money), because printing money is a way of “making money” if you’re the government. I can go on and on. Every time I hear an economist say that the fundamentals of the economy are solid I wonder what country they talking about. Our nation is being kept out of a recession by a nation Visa Gold Card. The consumer consumption that is keeping GDP buoyant is the resultant of an extension of credit/debt. Many of the areas of the country that are booming are booming simply do to relocation dynamics, which creates demand for construction, housing, services and the like, but really is not a net gain for the economy as resources and people are simply shifting to one place to another. Those are not tradable services that can be exported to bring in new money into the economy. American is turning into a non tradable services economy, which means economic decline because nations with rising standard of livings do so by having healthy export to import ratios, like China. The bottom line is that you cannot be a high wage nation and have cheap prices. Cheap prices are the product of low wages. High wage nations naturally should have higher prices as the pay rate is reflected in the price of goods and services. Americas attempt to export inflation and keep prices low in America has the result of lowering wages and salaries of Americans in a global pseudo free market of labor. No…..Michigan is NOT alone and Lobster is right on point. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 941 Registered: 10-2003 |
Accraghana, welcome to the forum. Your wrong | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2007 |
Irish Mafia.....I hope you are right, but you would be more convincing if you can demonstrate how I am wrong. | ||
Corktownmark Member Username: Corktownmark Post Number: 329 Registered: 12-2004 |
Accraghana, welcome to the Forum -- you're correct. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 35 Registered: 07-2007 |
The economy is not booming at all. I guess 1000's upon 1000's of foreclosures nationwide is a sign of a booming economy. Booming for who exactly? the good rev | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 942 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Booming for who exactly?" Me and you. Are you unemployed Reverend? | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2007 |
No sir, I am not unemployed. But I do not feel the economy is booming at all with so many people losing homes and not working. It certainly is not booming for me. But that is not a big deal. I enjoy a meager existance . Its the others Im worried about. the good rev | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 943 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nonfarm payroll employment increased by 132,000 in June, and the unemploy- ment rate was unchanged at 4.5 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Employment rose in several service- providing industries, while manufacturing employment continued to decline. Average hourly earnings rose by 6 cents, or 0.3 percent, over the month. Unemployment (Household Survey Data) The number of unemployed persons (6.9 million) was essentially unchanged in June, and the unemployment rate held at 4.5 percent. The jobless rate has ranged from 4.4 to 4.6 percent since September 2006. So get on with it. Get to work and continue to help the economy grow. Whining about crisis' that don't exist may be politically expedient...but it it doesn't help anybody. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 195 Registered: 07-2005 |
Acc: You completely misunderstand the concept of comparative advantage. This might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C omparative_advantage Also, could you please cite a source regarding your assertion that the U.S. is increasing money supply by printing more dollars? I'm guessing you won't find one. Rev, your question is easy. We are experiencing record foreclosures primarily because of relaxed lending practices. I don't see how everyone didn't see this problem coming several years ago. Even in times of recession we did not see foreclosure levels like we do today. Back then you were generally required to put 20% down on your home. There was no such thing as interest only mortgages and ARMS were very rare. You had people over the last five years who put no money down, borrowed more than the home was worth (this was accomplished through seller's concessions at closing), and taking out an ARM so that the buyer could afford the payment (this despite the fact that we were experiencing historically low interest rates-- what better time to get a fixed rate?). You had people doing this on a large scale which actually worked to increase home prices artificially, thus exacerbating the problem. This also allowed people to pull out what equity they did have (at the inflated values). Now that rates are resetting people can no longer afford the payment. They are unable to sell their home to get out of the mess because they have zero or even negative equity. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 44 Registered: 07-2007 |
Spartacus, Yes I'm very familiar with mortgage scams. But I still feel the same and see everyday our economy is sliding downhill fast. Sorry, just my eyes. I would guess that those familiar with the city of Detroit would tend to agree what a downturn our economy has taken just from experiencing the downslide in this city. People say War is good for the economy. Sorry, this war has done nothing but ruin it as far as my eyes can see. With the overusage of public services over the past few years and spending on the war I can see us heading for a 2nd great depression and fast. sorry, the good rev | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 944 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rev, Do you think if you keep saying it, it will become true? Its kind of like the 3 women in Manhattan who couldn't understand how a Republican was elected. "None of my friends voted for him." they said. Under their world view, there was no possibility that this could happen. They needed to cross the Hudson now and again. Your world view, as depressing as it is, doesn't represent reality in America. You gotta get out more. The facts are there in black and white. Job creation continues and unemployment remains low and investment continues to grow and tax cuts that spurred this investment continue to provide increases in tax revenues. Its a wonderful world. Cheer up. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 57 Registered: 07-2007 |
Irish, I hear ya but, Im surrounded by poverty and destitution everywhere I go. Its hard not to see this daily and not be affected in a negative light. But , reality is, more and more people are being made poorer and poorer everyday in this country. I only wish it were not true. Im at the point where I do not believe what anyone says about our economy. I just believe my eyes. What do I see? A fake financial bubble blown out of proportion by the media and gov. Sort of like Junk Bonds from the 80's only this time our gov. is the culprit in this grand scheme and when the glass wall comes crashing down, anyone who is not wealthy, will be affected harshly. Moreso than now. By the way,I am cheerful most of the time , but its hard not too care about our people. Thank you for your concern. the good rev | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 947 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rev, Don't trust your limited perception. It appears to be deceiving you in cruel ways. Look at all the great news below. The country, inclusive of Michigan's dismal economy, is in an Economic Boom! Job Creation Continues - More Than 8.2 Million Jobs Created Since August 2003 On July 6, 2007, The Bureau Of Labor Statistics Released New Jobs Figures – 132,000 Jobs Created In June. Since August 2003, more than 8.2 million jobs have been created, with more than 2 million jobs created over the twelve months ending in June. Our economy has now added jobs for 46 straight months, and the unemployment rate remains low at 4.5 percent. Americans Are Working And Taking Home More Pay Real After-Tax Per Capita Personal Income Has Risen By 9.9 Percent – Nearly $3,000 Per Person –Since President Bush Took Office. Real Wages Rose 1.1 Percent Over The 12 Months Ending In May. This is faster than the average rate during the 1990s, and it means an extra $729 in the past year for the typical family with two wage earners. The Economy Has Now Experienced Over Five Years Of Uninterrupted Growth, Averaging 2.9 Percent A Year Since 2001. Real GDP grew a strong 3.1 percent in 2006. Since The First Quarter Of 2001, Productivity Growth Has Averaged 2.8 Percent. This is well above average productivity growth in the 1990s, 1980s, and 1970s. Purchasing Managers Reported Manufacturing Expansion For The Fifth Consecutive Month In June. The Institute for Supply Management manufacturing index rose to 56 in June. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 931 Registered: 11-2006 |
That's what I'm talking about. If history is any indication, Michigan follows the nation after a delay. We may be on the brink of a nice upturn. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2418 Registered: 06-2004 |
nope - nationwide freight trucking is down and that's a huge indicator haven't looked at Great Lakes shipping stats lately, but they can't be gorgeous with the low water levels ^^These are fundamental indicators - unlike stocks these indicators don't soar one day and crash the next - the only reason the market hasn't crashed is because there's so much overseas input into it now that was never there before on such a large scale | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3741 Registered: 10-2003 |
www.barbaraehrenreich.com (author of "Nickel and Dimed" and "Bait and Switch" | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2007 |
Rev, I hear you and agree and it's not just Detroit. I sometimes wondered where the statistics come from. That's when I realized that for every statistic touting the success of the U.S. economy, there was another contrarian statistic. Fact is, the economy is not easily quantified. I love the irony when someone bemoans (criticizes) the auto industry for using outdated management practices or forecasting when the very people doing the criticism rely upon statistical models developed during and utilizing the same methods they are so eager to tout. I'd find this laughable if I wasn't so sure that we're going to get slammed sometime soon for using faulty models. Although I admire your optimism Irish_Media and your efforts to support your position, I have to wonder where the heck you live and in what sector are you working to maintain such a rosy outlook? Just saying... (Message edited by Umcs on July 10, 2007) | ||
Granmontrules Member Username: Granmontrules Post Number: 119 Registered: 01-2007 |
I read in the paper the other day that Atlanta is Number 1 in foreclosures. The Bush Administration is doing a lot of propaganda to brainwash us that things are fine and that it is only in Blue States. But don't believe it! | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 65 Registered: 07-2007 |
See Irish, Im not the only one that sees what's going on around me and in my travels. I'm glad you are optomistic, but a lot of us also are not. USMC,GRAN, thank you for your input. the good rev | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 66 Registered: 07-2006 |
Atlanta and other parts of the country are up in foreclosures because of ill informed, financially inept fools who took out adjustables for homes far exceeding the typical 2 1/2 times income rule of thumb. Lasted great for about three years and then BOOM. By the way, REALLY enjoying this "fake" financial bubble. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 70 Registered: 07-2007 |
Rick, I am gld that you and your family are doing well. I truly am. But, like I said, in my travels I am constantly surrounded by poverty and I see it growing moreso everyday. I see people out of work. People cannot find work. I see new unemployed people all the time and they truly have it rough finding work because of the lack of it. Those people that trusted their mortgage companies did not desrve to be robbed with small print. And those robberies will only attribute to the economy falling more and more. I wish you continued success the good rev | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 67 Registered: 07-2006 |
I'm truly sorry for those who have lost/are losing their homes to foreclosure due to their inability to pay as their adjustable rates go up. However, many are at fault themselves for not doing their homework in reading the "small print". Ignorance is no excuse for consequences. It's unfortunate but in business trusting anyone other than yourself is not a wise road to take. I know that there are free classes offered all over on the basics of home buying/ownership. The basic knowledge is there but many are to lazy to take the time to find it. Then the interest rate goes up as stated in the loan, they lose their home, and blame their lack of preparation on everyone else but them. However, losing one's home due to a job loss is another story. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 13 Registered: 06-2007 |
Sales continue to fall, in most all the stores in the NE region. Customers aren't spending much...and those who are, are always looking for the sales on the higher end quality items, as I am as well. There were times only a few years ago, that everyone seemed to be flush with cash. There was so much cash coming in the store that we had to have Brinks armored service on a regular basis. That has all dried up. Now its credit cards, or better yet, sometimes 1/3 on one card 1/3 on the other the rest cash. Buying a pair of shoes has turned into a mortgage closing simulation. Oh...and the declined cards...we didn't even see declined cards but once ot twice a year, and that was usually when the customers card expired and they forgot to activate the new one. Now almost every week we get declined transactions. Someone today was tickled pink. I had a size 9.5 that was worn once or twice and returned for being the wrong size, it was in the stock room without the box. I offered it to the customer for $40.00 off.. he was so delighted. Things are pretty rough when a customer asks if I had a pair of like new but used steel toe work boots. I was talking to a bank manager bud today. commerce isn't happening there either. Real estate isn't moving...two months from now you'll hear a report how bad the summer season housing sales were. Off the record I'm told Lightolier is closing and going to China, this is unconfirmed. More safety-toe customers gone and another vacant building in the industrial park. This is ongoing all over the country. Foreclosures in my neighborhood a few doors down. The city came and finally mowed their waist-high lawn. Another house on the market next to mine popped up on for sale on Tues. They purchased 12/30/06 $395K....seven months later the sign. There asking $415K...It doesn't even have a garage, thats not going to happen, But they got one of those NEW CENTURY or AMERIQUEST two mortgage adjustable rate deals with no money down. Their pool just turned green from the heat, I glanced over as I was mowing today. Probably can't afford the chlorine, or are working so hard to pay the sky high mortgage they have no time. I dont know them them, they seem to be working lots of hours and not home much. Its seems as though the same tune is being played from all corners of the country..just from reading this post. Someone wrote in this thread last week how wonderful the economy is and that they asked waitresses, hotel clerks. etc. how they felt the economy was and they said "great". How on earth would they know what great is? Did they recently excercise their stock options? More and more low-paying entry level jobs....thats what this country is headed for a bunch of disposable jobs and vacant industrial parks and foreclosed homes. We need better, and quickly. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 70 Registered: 07-2006 |
If the economy is so goddamn bad where you live MOVE. Good Christ, spending is up nationwide, the DOW Jones is setting records and you give the example of your idiot neighbor who took out TWO adjustable rate mortgages and their POOL turned green because they couldn't afford the chlorine??? They're paying "sky high mortgages" because they're financial idiots. By the way, foodservice professionals such as servers have a VERY good idea as to how the economy is going if people are spending disp[osable income in their restaurants. You need better?? Get a better education or job skills. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 14 Registered: 06-2007 |
Spending is up nationwide because of record: fuel, healthcare, food costs. Americans are saving at historically low levels. "Maxed Out" explains how these record purchases are funded. The foodservice professionals at the Applebees down the road are now on the dole as it just closed, along with their fellow colleagues from the IHOP and those at Papa's Clam Shack. Yeah the DOW..hmmm? foreign investors? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2429 Registered: 06-2004 |
Just wait, Ricky-pie. Unless you have an international job your turn to feel it is coming. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 15 Registered: 06-2007 |
Oh, and my bud Pepp the stock broker who handles customers calling in about their SEP IRAs and 401(k) hes out of his 15 year job as the brokerage firm is moving their call center to INDIA. They gave him a two month severance "package" he can get COBRA insurance for $869/ month. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 16 Registered: 06-2007 |
...So he'll be with the folks from Papas Clam Shack shortly at the unemployment office. More skills you say? Well, he's a public accountant and he carries his 6 and 63 and has his also has his 7 (licensed stockbroker) So, what else is there for him to study for? Good thing hes a wiz at finance and has a nest egg. Cuz' nobody's hiring now. | ||
Deteamster Member Username: Deteamster Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2007 |
I can't believe that some of these people are real. I'm almost entirely convinced that they're paid by the Administration to tell us how wonderful the country is doing. The rich are richer, the poor are poorer. I'm not going to waste my time roaming around the internets like these Republican Bushbots for the proper figures. I have to wake up in the morning. To work two jobs. To make ends meet. Not naming any names, but no one better tell me to move or get an education. I have a degree and plenty of skills, thank you. I like it here and everyone I love is here. I'm not moving to the stinking Bible Belt. Oh, and silly me, I thought this was a Detroit forum? If it's so bloody great everywhere else why don't our friendly neighborhood GOP spokespeople go hang out on the AtlantaYES! message boards instead and talk about how great the economy is, how swimmingly the war is going, and just how dandy the country is doing. And all this slamming of Democrats? Yeah...Republicans are real winners. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 141 Registered: 02-2007 |
"nope - nationwide freight trucking is down and that's a huge indicator" Sure is, my son and I drove in from Traverse city yesterday. I haven't been traveling much lately and I noticed something different. There were very few large freight carrying trucks on the road. When we drove down Telegraph from Sq.lake we didn't notice even one (at night). A few years back there were always trucks on the road. Irish, don't drink the kool-aid, regardless of what the media says, the economy is in the crapper nationwide. We can't keep shipping out manufacturing and not be affected by it. Detroit just feels it first. Don't be fooled by the money handlers that produce nothing. Economy's are based on produced goods, not gambling and crafty deals. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 71 Registered: 07-2006 |
Useless...sounds like you live in one of the few economically sucking places on the country. MOVE!! The Dow Jones is not foreign investors with our assinine tax laws. Franchise operations nationwide are growing. And your friend who has his SERIES Seven takes calls in? Why not calls out??? Quit your crying and do something besides selling shoes. You also don't have to be a WIZ at finance to have a nest egg. Sorry Lilpup, you don't have a clue either and seems like you want to blame others also. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2430 Registered: 06-2004 |
oh, yeah, things are just BOOMING CEOs grow bearish freight springs a leak April tonnage down on the lakes US flag carriage down 7% from last year for Jan-May period, short loading costing carriers all this along with increased fuel costs... oh well, we'll just end up buying everything from the Chinese anyway (Message edited by lilpup on July 14, 2007) | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 142 Registered: 02-2007 |
Rick, I've been to Atlanta several times. Who'd want to live there? It looks phony, over-developed, over-built and temporary. Good luck when it takes a big one. It's an artificial economy adrift in a sea of back forty nothingness. You can have it. Whats the big product there? Call centers? Yeah our economy will sustain on legions of nimrods answering telephones and telemarketers. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 119 Registered: 06-2007 |
Rick, I'm with you. The economic reports show a steady growth of the economy. I read these on a regular basis because it affects my business. Michigan is the one state exception. But I know, like you, that a good education, and much more importantly, a driven mindset, makes your depressed environment irrelevant. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 143 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "The economic reports show a steady growth of the economy" Then why isn't it growing? Exporting jobs and manufacturing and replacing it with BS is growth? I find it a great testament to the strength of the US economy that we can build China's economy and our own simultaneously. It's BS. It's not a Detroit problem alone as they would have you believe. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2431 Registered: 06-2004 |
keep looking at those reports - that way you won't see the wanting populous sneak up behind you to jump you | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 121 Registered: 06-2007 |
OK, sstashmoo. You probably know more about economics than me. you must know what you are talking about. I won't even waste my time going on about that anymore, but I will go back to my what I said before. If you are a driven individual, the state of society around you means nothing. Anyone with vision and determination can achieve whatever they want. If I lose my job tomorrow, I'm not worried about the future, or losing my house. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2432 Registered: 06-2004 |
^^that's NOT what it's about - it's NOT about I, ME, MINE try developing a scrap of social conscience, why dontcha | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 122 Registered: 06-2007 |
How is "anyone is capable of being a success" an example of lacking social conscience? | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 72 Registered: 07-2006 |
Kid, It's glaringly obvious that those like Lilpup believe that those of us who've worked hard and made the right decisions OWE it to GIVE what we've achieved/earned to those who haven't the capability. Wait, that's right we do...income redistribution taxes.... | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 73 Registered: 07-2006 |
Sstashmoo, Who'd want to live here? Looks like no one since we have four of the fastest growing counties in the nation, the HQ for well over 20 Fortune 500 Companies, and no not just one "product" but a huge variety of very successful business segments. Actually, most "call centers" have gone to India so there goes your career. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9640 Registered: 12-2003 |
I know the deepest truth, it is NO secret. The economy only churns when we're feeling good about it. It behooves the administration to continue lying about it, if it is indeed as bad as some of us think, JUST so those closer to the fence will continue loading up their credit cards to keep this frenzy of purchasing alive. Capitalism assumes growth. It is an unspoken assumption, but in THAT particular unproven economic theory growth is the greatest good...not so much profit, or quality, or any of that other happy crap. It will attempt to grow no matter what it harms...people or the environment...as long as the major proponents of its motion, the corporate overseers, continue to only look at the bottom line. Worse now that it is only the short-term figures that are considered. I've enjoyed this conversation, even if word-wrap has failed making it a huge pain to read. I'm on the nay-sayer's side...the numbers are all inflated with the war-action, someone really needs to take a look at them without this government-inspired dynamic. That will reveal the truest story...remove the demand that was falsely created by the military/industrial complex, the big DRAIN opened by their wanton destruction...and see where our real wealth has gone. We blow the world up, and some fat cats get fatter off the materials wasted...while our children come home in pieces, if at all. All to secure cheap raw materials in the future for our machine to churn... | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 17 Registered: 06-2007 |
No Rick in Atlanta, hes the ops mgr of the plan administration center duh... You know, you think your making yourself sound all that great with your flip answers answers to everything, but your sarcastic comments make you sound more and more like the village idiot. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9645 Registered: 12-2003 |
Happy Corporate Capitalists are either idiots OR unaware of the abuses fostered by the system...or completely devoid of conscience. Or ALL of the above... | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 144 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Looks like no one since we have four of the fastest growing counties in the nation" Just made sense of this crude attempt at a sentence, you're talking about all the illegals. Is this indeed the growth you're referring to? Don't worry, they aren't going anywhere. Your wonderful president is going to reward them for breaking our immigration laws with citizenship. Looks like crime does pay. Quote: "Actually, most "call centers" have gone to India so there goes your career" Stated like a true native Georgian. Good to see you've assimilated. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 74 Registered: 07-2006 |
Just go share your pencils with the rest of your class and whine amongst yourselves. | ||
Lobsterpots Member Username: Lobsterpots Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2007 |
Gannon: I couldn't have put it better myself. This documentary explains it all. It's a must see: http://www.maxedoutmovie.com/s yn/index.html Personally, I really don't have much to worry about at this point, but I've noticed the times they are a changing. Deals that I wouldn't have bothered to do because they were too small awhile back I find myself doing. Don't mistake me for standing on a soap box, and I know that there's a heck of alot smarter folks out there than I and will acquire much more than I have, but I've been in business for myself for over ten years. I guess I was assigned a good business brain when I was born. I have no idea where I got it from, as everyone else in my family are worker bees. I've been wheeling and dealing since I was 12, always have been a money maker. I understand that lots of people don't have the same know-how, and thats where the problem lies. I do agree with Rick in Atlanta about my neighbors signing for the two mortgage zero cash down adjustable rate rider from an ALT-A or subrime lender. That was really stupid to do... and the stupider thing is that my house was actually one of two houses sold on the street that could have been used as a comp on the appraisal. I only paid $352K for mine in '05 with 20% down and a 5.65 fixed 30 year rate with zero points. they were asking $429. I talked 'em down. I negotiated the deal. At the same time I sold my condo for $282..the highest price ever in the development. I sold it myself, no realtor, my marketing, my deal. The same condo is on the market now today for $219. with no bites. Why my new neighbors paid $390 something for a smaller house without a garage after sales were down in the middle of winter was beyond me. But that is my point. The young couple with a baby got taken for a ride..they got ripped off. Now their swimming pool is green and the for sale sign swings in the wind. What happens if most people who DON'T know get ripped off by these predators? Foreclosures, bankruptcies, 24%+ APRs It destroys and decays the very fabric of our society. What good is a country with a bunch of people with bankruptcies and 350 FICO scores? They become the oppressed people. They get nothing, they get used and they get deeper into debt. In '99 I made 40K one week in the stock market on Ames Department stores. Anyone recall the merger? I was driving by and saw a nice lot with an auction flag. The auction was the next day. I was the high bidder at the auction for 73k. I cleared the land myself,on my free time and had the site work sewer water etc. professionally done. All told I spent $100k over the 5 years to the DAY that I owned it. Everyone told me when I bought the land that $73k was way too much. "There's better lots other side of town for $60K" The seasoned real estate brokers passed on it too. Everyone thought I was a sucker. I saw something there that nobody saw. I saw through the thickly wooded lot of a beautiful view of the bay. amongst the 50's ranches in an older development. It also happened to be the last lot on that side of town. So, I held onto it for a few years, cleared the wooded lot myself. I waited for a buyer to approach me, no for sale sign, no real estate agent. Just waited, I sold that too in '04 for $250k I'm going to Detroit in a few weeks $57.00 each way thank you Spirit Airlines. I see something there too. Been looking at it for over a year. I see a multitude of opportunities. I pulled my fico and yup, 750 avg. 3 scores. So, I'll buy what I want at the price I want to pay. But part of my success I attribute to having some HUMILITY. (Rick in Atlanta) I'm not ashamed of where I came from and what I started with, and where it came from. Between my businesses, and my investing on the side, I'm 37 years old and I've made millions. and admit I've had one deal fall though when I was in my early 20's. Today, I have no credit card debt, I have no car payments. $500K available credit between HELOCS, sweep accounts, credit cards etc. I still go to yard sales, and think nothing of buying a nice shirt at a thrift store. Even with my assets and credit. The cash is simply not flowing around here like it was a few years ago and I find myself having to make do with less. I say OCTOBER-DECEMBER '07 the time to buy. I give Detroit a yes vote. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 146 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "whine amongst yourselves" Nobody IS whining. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. Its funny when a few of you "Gawd get out of Michigan" folks are confronted with a few facts, your reply is "go share your pencils" or some other such nonsense. More facts: Our present government, for whatever reason condones and even offers incentives for companies to outsource jobs and manufacturing to foreign shores. We cannot keep stripping away the fabric of our manufacturing base and expect to not all be affected by it. And it's frustrating every time the economy is mentioned in the media, "Detroit" is mentioned by default. With the "Well they shoulda this and they shoulda that" New office buildings and McMansions do not say much about a city, show me what they produce.. Drug dealers have nice houses and new cars too. For a while. | ||
Soomka1 Member Username: Soomka1 Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2007 |
If you think this is happening everywhere and that America's economic system is to blame, you are in denial. To quote Comerica Bank's June Michigan Brief: "The 2006 data for Gross Domestic Product (GDP) by State confirm what most of us suspected. Michigan remains stuck in a one-state recession. Last year, Michigan was the only state that did not grow. Its real GDP contracted by 0.5 percent, while the nation expanded 3.4 percent. Michigan’s one-state recession is now three years old and counting. From 2004 through 2006, its real GDP contracted at a 0.3 percent compound annual rate. Over those 3 years, the next worse state, Ohio, grew at a 1.6 percent compound annual rate while the nation recorded a 3.4 annual rate of growth." Despite what individuals may feel in Atlanta or Boston, the national economy isn't that bad. Michigan is caught in a terrible set of circumstances some are self-inflicted some aren't, but they are unique to Michigan. It is going to take a huge change in thinking to get back on track and the number of posts blaming all of these outside forces is distressing. People need to look at what is working in the other 49 states and see if they can adopt some of these things. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 75 Registered: 07-2006 |
"I attribute to having some HUMILITY. (Rick in Atlanta) I'm not ashamed of where I came from and what I started with, and where it came from" Apparently you have the huge misconception that I'm ashamed of where I came from?? WRONG!! My Dad worked on an open loading dock the whole time I grew up in SW Detroit in the 50's & 60's never made 10k in any year, my mother was a maid in a hotel on Lawndale. I couldn't be more proud of my background. I worked two jobs (McDonald's JANITOR & UPS) to pay my way through college. My childhood and my parents gave me the initiative to be successful. The huge problem that gets me responding to these stupid posts is when people act like nothing is their fault and somebody else owes them a living. Never said for anyone to get out of MI as I love the state and the people. It's just if ANY location doesn't favor your economic situation then you have a choice to go elsewhere. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 148 Registered: 02-2007 |
Soomka, In my business, I talk to people all over North America. Some of the economic reports and what folks are saying doesn't coincide. In the last election W was blatting about all the jobs he created, he neglected to say, that a large number of them were with collection agencies. Remember the tax collection act he passed? Private agencies to collect them? Did it ever occur to anyone that the government has vested interest in positive economic numbers? And just maybe because they don't want to lose further support for the Iraq catastrophe, referred to as "diplomacy"? The approval for it now is around 22%. Virtually no support. I don't believe these reports. Again, what the reports say and folks are reporting shore to shore doesn't jive. Factories are closing up and moving, Bankruptcies are increasing and foreclosures are more common. Houses sit for months and months without selling (huge indicator) It's not just here in Michigan. Unfortunately this state is the press's whipping boy. And to add insult to injury, they blame us for it. Obama did himself alot of damage standing up in Detroit and saying its our fault because we didnt build more fuel efficient cars. Nice Monday morning quarter-backing. Translation: "The present government is doing nothing for you, and I'll do even less, it's your own fault" I'll give him credit for at least admitting it. The real question regarding our economic state, a real good indicator nationally. What do we produce? | ||
Sturge Member Username: Sturge Post Number: 43 Registered: 05-2007 |
I don't know how anyone will be able to move out of here if they can't sell their house. Especially if they still owe money on it. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1075 Registered: 11-2006 |
Default and foreclosure, epidemic going on right now. In some instances, take the hit in order to go somewhere and work to start digging out of the hole. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2433 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: So you disagree with paying fair living wages? Did you make all your money from companies that shit on their employees? | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 76 Registered: 07-2006 |
I'm a wage earner just like most of you, I assume. So I didn't earn my living off companies that " shit on their employees." Why do you ignore the personal responsibility? | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1089 Registered: 11-2006 |
Fair living wage by free market forces=a wage that allows the employer to profit, and also allows the employer to attract, hire, and retain employees in the face of competition for laborers from other employers. Per this definition, a fair wage depends on the productivity of the employee, and success of the employer. Overall high productivity/quality, per the lowest cost allowing for profit. In this system, a company cannot mistreat or underpay employees that are desirable/employable. Why? other companies that don't mistreat their employees will have all of the good employees, and the other company will be unable to function and compete. The free market and capitalism is a highly efficient self regulating system. It does not allow for the philosophy of entitlement to take hold. This is vitally important for everyone concerned, not the least of which is the employee. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2434 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote:Except for shareholders and corporate executives | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2007 |
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/U S_first_quarter_GDP_revised_up _sli_06282007.html “US first-quarter economic growth slowed to a 0.7 percent annual pace, slightly stronger than earlier estimated, the government said Thursday in its final revision of gross domestic product. The Commerce Department last month had estimated GDP growth at 0.6 percent in the January-March quarter” This first quarter data of 2007 shows that it’s NOT just a Detroit problem. Global GDP growth rate is above 4%. The US first quarter rate of growth was .07. The US is falling behind relative to the rest of the world even if we are not officially in an absolute recession (at two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth). The Economic state is largely a behavioral driven phenomenon. Hence, this is why consumer sentiment in a metric for the health of the economy because consumption behavior is a derivative of confidence in the economy. Thus, the best way to keep the economy humming to tell the populous, consumers, that everything is fine and dandy and they will continue spending. If you tell them that everything is not fine and dandy, they will become less confident and contract their spending to protect themselves from future hard time. This will send the economy downward from decreased consumption. To me it is very obvious what is going on…and its called economic propaganda to keep people spending in order to keep GDP is the black. The consequence of this is rising levels of debt that is growing faster than income levels which means a harder and deeper correction (recession) when it happens. (Message edited by accraghana on July 15, 2007) (Message edited by accraghana on July 15, 2007) | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1092 Registered: 11-2006 |
Wrong Lilpup, very wrong....shareholders and executives invest capital and/or human capital at their own risk. If successful, they profit, if not, they lose. THAT IS THE OPPOSITE OF AN ENTITLEMENT. |
