 
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 123
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 2:03 am: |    |
Chene park should remain in service. I think it will work well with what is proposed for that area. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4590
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 3:07 am: | |
As has already been mentioned, there is no public parking at Gabriel Richard Park. The only place to park is in the lot of the adjacent currently unoccupied Broadhead Naval Armory. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2429
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 9:09 am: | |
Mackinaw that is such an immature post on so many levels.
Using your logic of no one lining up to use FA justifies it's demolition makes me glad that the powers that be did not think that way.Otherwise there would be no Fox theater, the State would likely be gone as well, orchestra hall? Demolished.....music hall? who knows and how about Masonic no one is lining up their either_ lets tear that shit down.
To compare the Madison Lenox and Statler to FA shows a lack of architectural knowledge and it's history_ and I am just an armchair observer.Ford aud is a focal point of a whole plan as pointed out by Bits.The Statler was a chain much like Burger King is a chain.I liked the Statler but it was not a representative piece of architecture.It fit nicely in GCP and there is a hole there now but it was not a unique structure.Neither was the M-L.It fit nicely in the area and should have been kept but it was hardly representative of any particular style as there are any number of similar bldgs in Detroit.
I suppose I should just resign myself to the idea tha some of you that claim to love cities and diversity have yet to shed your provincialism. |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 74
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:26 am: | |
quote:Detroit topped out at about 1.890 million in 1950 remix.As you can see this is no where near 3 million.
Funny, I have a transit study report from 1926 or something, where an engineering company was commissioned to design an entire mass transit system for Detroit (subways, elevated, street, etc) - all obviously scrapped.
But, in the report, there were population projections that were almost dead on - to a point. They predicted Detroit would have a population of 2.5 million by 1955 (1.9 actual), and a population of 6.0 million by the 1990's. So, up until the 50's the report was very close.
You imagine a Detroit of 6 million people?
Back on subject: Hart Plaza is butt ugly. A giant field of Utilitarian concrete. I'm all for a change. It could be a great plaza, it just isn't now, and never has been. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 847
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:38 am: | |
Once there was a cadre of people who wanted to paint over the Diego Rivera murals in the DIA. They hated them for their working-class motifs, said they were not real art. These people were the leadership of Detroit at the time.
Happily, those short-sighted leaders lost the battle. The Rivera Murals stayed and became important touchstones for understanding the Detroit experience and mindset.
I think Detroit will be laughed at by the world if we destroy what Noguchi built.
Far better to have some sympathetic experts review Noguchi's 30 year old design, address the elements that were never built, refresh it and then we should study and savor the visionary and important installation we were blessed with. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 159
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:49 am: | |
Went to an Andy Warhol book signing at this bookstore called I Browse (n'western @ orchard lake) Warhol called it something along the lines of "the most exciting new public space in the US" |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
Andy Warhol painted soup cans. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2431
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
Your point being what GotDetroit? That Detroit had high flying plans in 1926 just as they do now?
As for your definition of dead on.........wll ya sorta compromise that right away so dead means something other than dead on.......1.9 is about a half mil short of 2.5 hardly a small difference.
Bur you make my point, provincialism for all the supposed wordliness of some of you(that means you gotdetroit) is alive and well here. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 244
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
I think that the one KEY issue being discussed here is what is more important, preserving a space that was designed by a noted architect, or altering that space to fit current tastes and needs in efforts to make the space more utilized by the public?
In my personal opinion, creating a space that is actually used by the people is more important that preserving the space in its original state in the case of Hart Plaza. As far as the world laughing at us for altering Noguchi's design, I highly doubt that. Every single one of Olmsted's designs were altered at some point after he created them. Not one of them is considered a laughing stock. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2692
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:02 am: | |
As it exists, Hart Plaza is a great example of Soviet design. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 848
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
What?
People "restore" Olmstead's designs now - they don't arrogantly "alter" them. What do you think happened in Central park recently- it was restoration. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 245
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:13 am: | |
Southwest, They have altered them in the past. Hell, he even had his designs altered before the projects were even complete (such as his work at the Chicago World's Fair). |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 76
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:21 am: | |
quote:Your point being what GotDetroit? That Detroit had high flying plans in 1926 just as they do now?
I think my point was going to the question of Detroit being built for 3 million residents. It was more of an interesting (to me) aside. The report is actually from 1923. You're right though, half a million is off their estimate (which my "close enough" suggestion was eluding to).
But considering the population in Detroit in 1923 was around 900,000 and they predicted a growth of 1.5 million 30 years in the future, being off by .5 isn't that terrible of fortune telling. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3012
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:58 pm: | |
Citylover, architectural elitism is not uncalled for in this case. Did anyone think Orchestra Hall was ugly. Not really. Yet every other person thinks FA is ugly, and a few here and there think it's the shit. You're just trying to reverse all of this and be an elitist in your own way, like you and a handful of others are the only people that see the goodness and significance of the FA design, and the rest of us ignorant plebians just don't get it.
Btw, someone was lining up to use the Fox and Orchestra Hall. The Fox was purchased by private developers and redeveloped. Orchestra Hall came back as a result of a movement started by DSO members, which included massive fundraising. Where are the developers for FA? Where is the f**king interest? Where have all these people that want to use it been? It's been idle for a decade +. When it was not idle, it was used for minor civic events. Dude, we aren't talking about a building that is a landmark, that makes a mark on our skyline, that is complementary to any streetscape (because it is hidden away in an un-urban fashion), and, it does not have a design or a level of craftsmanship that is widely agreed upon (or even somewhat agreed upon) as being high-quality.
Everyone needs to study this view of FA: http://local.live.com/default. aspx?v=2&cp=r1n4v082csqm&style =o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1 000&scene=5649387&encType=1
...and tell me how this place, even if it were occasionally used, is complementary to our downtown. It is a fortress. It is set back from the street. It is out of the way. It has no windows to look out at downtown or the water. It isn't even nicely integrated with the rest of the civic center. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 362
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 1:29 pm: | |
"Down with that bitch of a wall" mommy dearest |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 166
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
Looking at the aerial and the rendering, it looks like the biggest change is really the death of FA (and the pyramid stage)and moving greenspace closer to the fountain on the west side of the plaza |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2434
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 2:01 pm: | |
Orchestra hall was literally minutes away from demolition.So whether people thought it was attractive or not seems unimportant.What was important was that some thought it important enough to save.The same holds true for just about any other building in Detroit that was saved; and they are not landmarks either.And if you think lining up to use the Fox is 4th run Kung fu movies then we have different definitions of that term.
Many buiding have or had been idle for decades.Using that line of reasoning should we tear tehm all down? Good reasons could be made for that_ why not do it?
I don't love everyhing ou there.But I am open enough to reliaze when something is important enough to save.Ford aud is that important.
How many shows did you see at Ford that you know so much about the interior? |
Ramcharger
Member
Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 331
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 7:27 pm: | |
Click on the picture to read the article. |
Classico
Member
Username: Classico
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
Rb is wrong about Millennium park.
Ramcharger is wrong about Hart Plaza.
Citylover is wrong about Ford.
There, that should clear things up ;) |
Fho
Member
Username: Fho
Post Number: 63
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 9:07 am: | |
What parts of Noguchi's original Hart Plaza plans were never completed or altered? |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 174
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 10:13 am: | |
Odd that the article has no more pictures of Hart Plaza |
Ramcharger
Member
Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 341
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:37 am: | |
The Noguchi Museum |
Tkelly1986
Member
Username: Tkelly1986
Post Number: 317
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:11 pm: | |
I also was hoping that with the riverwalk, someday the Miller garage would be demolished and police substation be moved to add to the greenspace....probably not going to happen though. |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 207
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
I think the Miller garage is there to stay, but at least with the redesign and the addition of the Port Authority Terminal will lessen its visual impact on the riverfront. |
Tkelly1986
Member
Username: Tkelly1986
Post Number: 318
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
Too bad, however, is the Port Authority Terminal taking over the space of the police sub station? Or is that staying as well? |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 208
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 2:02 pm: | |
Thats staying the terminal will be built east of that. Im not sure how large the foot print will be but it should take up a good chunk of land between the sub station and Ren Cen. |
Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 2:45 pm: | |
So what are the plans for the Chene park site if this project ever comes to fruition? |
Digitaldom
Member
Username: Digitaldom
Post Number: 636
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 9:49 pm: | |
Downtown_remix - The riots did not start the white flight as people may call it.. It only accelerated it.. That was already occuring well before the 3rd riot in Deroit! We have had 3 major ones.. the last one was just another catalyst that cause a further flight..
I am curious about Chene park.. What type of events occur there? From what I have seen they seem to cater to a specific crowd of folks..and not a universal venue as of sorts.. Will the Hart Plaza pavilion be the same?
Southwestmap - No one will laugh at Detroit.. Putting green space into the Hart Plaza area is a very positive move. We have a concrete jungle as a plaza.. Putting green space in that area.. will definitely please environmentalist.. It is TOO sterile I agree with that comment completely. That area needs real life.. Not more concrete.. I am not proposing making the area a huge lawn.. though that would be quite interesting now that I think about it..
Quite a visual really... Green space from Jefferson to the river.. interesting.. but we can keep some of the open concrete spaces because they do have a function.. But they should also redo the main stage at Hart Plaza.. Put in real seats.. A real permanent stage..
BTW FIX that DAMN side walk between Hart Plaza, FA, and the old mariners church DAMN.. That shit is falling apart.. it's sinking and someone is going to the sue the city on that one.. That whole area near Jefferson needs a make over BADLY...
As for Noguchi's vision or plans.. I perfect example is the removal of the reflecting ponds that were once part of 1 woodward (the old ANR building) (did I get the address right?) His designs are meant to be a complete package.. if you remove one element you remove his vision.. And the rest of his design concept seems odd..
Now for those concrete lovers.. lets go over to BrickTown and admire all the parking lots.. and behind the fox theatre.. Man is that ever a Gem! LOL..
A city can ALWAYS use more GREEN space..
When I am shepping tours of detroit (assisting at this point) everyone loves how Campus Maritius compliments the city.. then they get to Hart Plaza.. When an event is not there.. it's dead as a door nail.. The broken concrete doesn't help.. you see a lack of green space.. and just parking lots everywhere.. The newer developments are adding green space for the simple reason.. it's inviting it's makes the city look ALIVE...
All out of towners agree it needs more green space.. It looks like another parking lot..
Tear Ford down already.. I don't care if you graduated there or not.. And yes I am a preservatist.. I am a member of preservation wayne.. I DO NOT speak for them! But I am a member.. all the projects they have been involved with I agree with.. to some extent..
As for the Ford.. You can't divide a single auditorium into smaller performance areas.. I can't even see how the heck you could ever do that.. It's not possible.. Yourtrying to fit a square peg in a round hole..
Performance areas are NOT condos.. you can't just divide something up like a massive stage.. if you can find one that has been successfully done.. do tell because I know of NONE that have even been attempted.
The uses proposed never made any sense to me.. NONE of the ideas fit into the foot print what so ever..
The only feasable way I can think of to make the Ford Aud fit into the landscape.. Would be to remove the back of the stages marble.. and create a huge glass wall.. And remove half the exterior with Glass.. Blue tinted with a changing light display would look best..
Now that would look cool on a concert performance stage to look onto the river.. BUT that would NOT work for any musical... But for a standard concert.. that would look very sweet.. But it would require a massive undertaking to make it blend..
The whole aud would have to be reconfigured a bit to have this type of use.. And concerts would have to occur mostly at night to get the best affect.. Daylight would blind people..
But it would remove the design completely from the original concept.. which the people that are barking to keep it would be pissed about..
If you did remove the whole frontage and create a garden of sorts in front of the Ford.. redo as I explained above.. it would be very successful.. is there any venue (year round mind you..) that has a glass wall facing a sky line and river?
Just my thoughts...
Thanx,
Dan |
Ohudson
Member
Username: Ohudson
Post Number: 256
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 11:50 pm: | |
Chene Park schedule:
http://www.fineartsdetroit.com /chenepark/main.html
It's mainly catered to R&B and old school R&B. |
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