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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 326
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

is there any website for updates/ more info
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 605
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Section 8!

<313>
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 202
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Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There could be Section 8.

Trolley Plaza and Lafayette Park both have Section 8. Do Riverfront Towers have Sec 8? Obviously management won't publicize this possibility to prospective tenants, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Wschnitt
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Username: Wschnitt

Post Number: 61
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Posted on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is there any news of the Fort Shelby?

Any new pics?
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 1090
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Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bump
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 352
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Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Fort Shelby March 7th
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Mpow
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Username: Mpow

Post Number: 288
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Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

almost the exact same photo here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/b icycledriveway/2171304103/
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 1353
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bump
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Bdglsmn
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Username: Bdglsmn

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Rb336 Larry Brinker is doing the renovation as well as he is a partner is the project.
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Busterwmu
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Username: Busterwmu

Post Number: 453
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any recent photos? Have they begun putting windows in yet?
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Runningman
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Username: Runningman

Post Number: 3
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sigh...I don't know how the development group can call this a "historic" renovation. No disrespect to the investors - thank goodness for their decision. But, gotta call a spade a spade.

NPS/Dept of Interior guidelines call for materials being replaced (in lieu of restoration) be replaced with identically detailed elements. I don't mean to sound ungrateful to the development team (architect is first-rate for this kind of thing), but, this building is being refurbished in typical "Detroit" style - that is to say, built like a BIC lighter. After about 100 uses, you throw it away.

Look at real-estate redevelopment on the East Coast next time you're there. For example, if a redeveloped building had wood windows in it that couldn't be restored, they put wood (or clad-wood windows with identical detailing) windows back in the holes. Everywhere you "cut corners", you end up paying (again) for replacing those mistakes much sooner than expected.

We do not treat our real estate here in Detroit with any real respect. (Well, not enough of us, anyway.)
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Runningman
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I should have also said that in order to receive Federal Tax Credits from NPS (and a portion from the State), for "Historic" renovation, materials used must meet their criteria..
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, but you have to look at it from a common sense standpoint. It's a hotel, not a museum. Hell, it isnt even a cultural treasure regardless of what you may think of it. It's a hotel. Plain and simple.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 1122
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How exactly are they cutting corners to not meet guidelines?
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 494
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Armchair expert Runningman, what have you contributed to in Detroit or restored for that matter?
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Runningman
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Username: Runningman

Post Number: 5
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm just a picky dude when it comes to windows - some of my work includes Beecher House @ WSU - check it out. This is one special building inside and out. Needs a bit of maintenance (the work we did was in 2000/2001, some of the curved-glass windows could use another coat of paint) - but still looks good.

Former funeral home Fritz, now a CCS admin building. The former Lewis College of Business @ CCS. The folks at CCS are very conscious of beautifying their properties - and bootstrap it to get it done right the first time.

Among others...not an expert jack of all trades, just at helping owners and architects replace unrestorable historic windows...and get their federal and State tax credits. This would be MY spec-ial-ty! I have more luck in Ann Arbor, where they have a few more owners interested preserving (and adding value to) their real estate.

Jealous of not getting the Pick Fort Shelby job...mostly, admittedly. It would have looked like it did when it was built if I had my hands on it! I'm sure it will be cool, nonetheless.




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Runningman
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Username: Runningman

Post Number: 6
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here was the "before" picture of the former Fritz building next to the LCB Building on Ferry.

I really love doing work on old Detroit buildings. If walls could talk...as they say. I just need to find more of them!


CCS - Fritz...before
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Rrl
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Username: Rrl

Post Number: 948
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Runningman, so what window product did the PFS renovation team end up selecting?

To me, it matters not so much about the materials but the style and profile of the window, i.e. replace double-hung w/ double-hung, true divided lites w/ divided lites, clear glazing w/ clear. There are very good new products w/ all modern characteristics (insulated panes, etc.) which can look as good as the originals but have much better performance. They are a bit more costly, but visually, it's worth it, IMHO.

To replace wood with wood rather than a similar styled aluminum clad product seems foolish from a maintenance perspective. Especially in that building, which has to have what, at least 500 openings?
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Runningman
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Username: Runningman

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They will be an aluminum (metal) window - find me an aluminum window with good-looking true divided lites (or simulated divided lite) - I haven't yet been impressed with any.

The PFS had mostly wood windows (three over three, three over one, six over six - not sure what Kahn had in mind with the patterns, perhaps some had been replaced during maintenance)in most areas, but not all. Cool frame profile/brickmold details also - those small things probably wont be missed by anyone but me.

I'm probably just being too picky. I can be guilty of that from time to time.

We are doing alum-clad wood windows now that look so much like wood windows that the layperson (not a picky window snob like me) couldn't probably tell them apart. We can make dies for complimentary, historic custom profile casing extrusions (very affordable with large-ish runs), with Energy Star type performance.

I would never put wood-exterior in a building like this - it would have surely been my recommendation for alum-clad also. But hey - nobody asked!
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 1358
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Runningman-- By "brickmold" details, do you mean that some of the brickwork adjoining the windows will be changed? Or are "brickmold" details just part of the window itself?

Anybody know what the replaced double-hung windows at the B-C are made of? Those look spot-on. However, the lite arrangements on some of the replaced lower floor windows don't match the 1924 lite arrangements. I realize that if the window pane arrangements were changed after the original construction, the historic tax credit requirements don't mandate that the replaced windows match the originals.

However, on at least one floor (Ballroom Mezzanine), the windows that were removed in the restoration were closer-looking to the originals that what is now there. Yet on the Lobby Floor, the new replacement windows have the exact same lite arrangement as the originals (minus some overlying stonework) even though they're more complex than those on the Ballroom Mezzanine! Go figure.
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 1080
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haven't been by there in several weeks. Have any new windows been installed yet? If so, what exactly is wrong with them? On deals involving historic rehabilitation tax credits, windows are perhaps the most scrutinized element of exterior restorations. Whatever the National Park Service approved, it is going to be pretty close in appearance, and even in materials, to the original construction. The NPS is scrutinizing restoration projects like the Fort Shelby all over the country on a daily basis. They know what they're doing. It would be highly unusual for them to approve something that sacrificed appearance and significantly altered the windows just for the sake of cost savings. It's just not how tax credit deals work.
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Bdglsmn
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Username: Bdglsmn

Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know who the window installer is at Pick-Fort Shelby? I taught about bidding on the project when it went out for bid but I didn't because I was worried about getting a fair shake. I say this because Larry Brinker is in the glass business (Universal Glass)and in my mind I couldn't imagine him not installing windows in a property that he co-owns.

One of the window manufactures that went after the job assured me that the bidding would be fair but I was skeptical. If someone other than a Brinker Group company got the job then I guess I was wrong on that one.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 700
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is a wood window not a mistake on a tall building? Pretty much every hotel of any height (or modern building, for that matter) has aluminum windows.

And, from the outside, are you going to be able to tell from 3 or 10 stories down?

I TOTALLY get all-wood windows on a 2-story structure. You can see the detail. But aren't wood windows more expensive to maintain? That's at least what I was told, not it being my specialty. Not to mention, don't they have to be painted/etc and that would seem like very expensive to wash and maintain (re-paint, etc) when you're 10 stories up hanging off the building. Those guys aren't cheap.

I may be wrong... but it just seems very impractical to do it any other way than what they're doing.
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Neilr
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Username: Neilr

Post Number: 704
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Prophet Jones

quote:

If walls could talk...as they say...


Before he moved to the mansion on Arden Park, this was Prophet Jones' home. And if these walls could talk, Supergay's blog could post a different tantalizing Story du Jour well into the next decade.
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J_to_the_jeremy
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Username: J_to_the_jeremy

Post Number: 54
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 1:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know it's great to have 100% historically accurate renovations, but I'm more than content with just having the Pick-Fort Shelby function as a hotel downtown. I'll sacrifice attractive windows for a little more life in the city.
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Bdglsmn
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Username: Bdglsmn

Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I could be wrong but I don't think that wood windows
will meet wind load code requirements on a high rise
building.
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Runningman
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Username: Runningman

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Digitalvision - of course you are correct about using a wood window on a tall building...in my world though (with NPS and tax credits at stake), usually Historic replacement involves replacing like with like materials, or, modern clad-exterior equivalents with similar profiling and divided lites...I would have loved to see alum-clad wood windows in that building, which I have done successfully in other area hotels of architectural significance (OK - does Rochester/Royal Park Hotel count as "in the area?" Or, St John Conf Ctr in Plymouth? - Royal Park was a new build, and St Johns was new/remodel). As I said - I could have literally duplicated what was there, and man - would that have made for an inviting, warm hotel stay experience. OK - only probably to me...

Dont get me wrong - I am so happy to see the PFS restored and put to some use other than a parking lot - I really am truly appreciative of the developers, architects, and investors. We need more of them -

Burnsie - the PFS had what we call "Detroit" brickmold detailing the masonry openings that was just...cool. So much of this material is covered up with boxed aluminum that has no character whatsoever except that it does cover up the peeling paint. Like I noted, I'm probably the only idiot who noted it. The B-C had metal windows on the lower floors, and thus, like the Broderick, I've got no issue with replacing like with like - that's just the way it is. What went into the upper floors I'm not sure - was discouraged from pursuing it by the bidding process.

Swingline - I don't mean to imply that I am the lone guy who understands how the NPS/State work their separate but effective tax credit systems (although if you really read and follow their requirements, you might see my point). And no, no windows in the PFS yet, although I haven't been by there in a couple of weeks.

If this project were in New York, I can tell you - those windows would have been clad-wood. I just wanted to point out that details do make a difference in the value of our properties of architectural signficance. Cold, sweaty aluminum windows in your hotel or condo are not fun...especially if you own it...but, I live, love and believe that this city and its wealthy investors will see this eventually, and make some of these properties something special, instead of a cookie tray.

The Beecher mansion was done in clad-wood...check it out next time you go to the DIA. Bet you can't tell!
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 1360
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Runningman-- Thnx for the info on wood-mold detailing.

Yes, the lower B-C windows are metal like the originals. But the lite patterns on at least the Ballroom Mezzanine don't match what was there before-- and what was there before was the same pattern as built. The new windows are divided in half vertically, but they needed a horizontal division halfway up as well.

Even though I'm not in the business, I pay attention to windows a lot as well!
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Wpitonya
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Username: Wpitonya

Post Number: 71
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's all this talk about the Book-Cadillac....how about a progress report on the Fort-Shelby? I unfortunately can't get back to Detroit until mid-July.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 5344
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Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Still doing the renovation on the interior. The windows aren't in, but from what some of the workers there tell me, they are on track. I don't know how much exterior work they are going to do though.
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Wpitonya
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Username: Wpitonya

Post Number: 72
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Patrick. That will look fantastic with new windows...or any windows!
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 1149
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The pre opening website has gone live

http://doubletree1.hilton.com/ en_US/dt/hotel/DTTLFDT-Doublet ree-Guest-Suites-Fort-Shelby-D etroit-Downtown-Michigan/index .do
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 493
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Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I notice they have $5 self-parking one block away which is great. I hate paying $20 at the other downtown hotels.

I agree. We need to get this pg and "work at the book cadillac" back to the main Discuss Detroit pg. and then move both to HOF after the opening.
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 469
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Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 9:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't wait!

I wonder if people like staying in a historic hotel over a modern one>