Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 102 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 64.105.106.86
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 9:44 am: | |
I was thinking yesterday how much it would do visually (and functionally) for Woodward @ the midtown area to have a grass median with landscaping, maybe a Midtown sign as you enter, etc. Ferndale has a similar setup @ 9mile/woodward and I think it is very visually pleasing. Woodward is so wide there and I think it would slow traffic down and you could even put a future light rail system (should there ever be one on woodward again) in the middle as per the Stephen Hands 2002 study. Anyway, I was thinking it was a good idea and wondering if you all think it is far from being realized or how popular of an idea that might be |
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 176 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 67.149.141.170
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 11:02 am: | |
I went to the festival yesterday and it seemed narrower than I remember. As long as things like visibility and stuff are considered I think it would be nice, especially in the cultural area since I bet a lot of students, either from the colleges or visiting the museums, walk back and forth. |
Jjw Member Username: Jjw
Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 11:17 am: | |
Detroit--a city of boulavards---I think it would be fabulous to do that to all of the wide streets in the city. The traffic volume never necessitates those wide streets.--Woodward, Grand River, and Gratiot would be three great streets to start with that kind of project. |
Matt Member Username: Matt
Post Number: 1059 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.42.170.148
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 11:44 am: | |
And how would the Thanksgiving Day parade be handled with that median? |
1953 Member Username: 1953
Post Number: 860 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.54.97.194
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 11:46 am: | |
I'm not so sure about a median on Woodward in Midtown. Maybe there are some other things we could do asthetically to clean up the streetscape. Any ideas? |
Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 103 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.40.65.66
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 12:55 pm: | |
if not a median....light rail but its too damn wide, something has to be done |
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 58 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 12.45.2.184
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 3:24 pm: | |
A round-a-bout at the intersection with a new fountain designed by a world famous architect. And tear that ugly Michigan building down on the north east corner. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1725 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 75.10.20.176
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 6:56 pm: | |
Apbest, I've brought this topic up before, and we've had some decent discussions on this forum. I think it was a side-topic on different threads though, so I think it will be hard to search for. I'd like to see a long, narrow park on an island between the DIA and DPL, personally. Something European inspired. Personally I think the parade should become more abbreviated. We can always have it go from Grand Circus Park to the Ren Cen or something like that (inside of the People Mover crossings). |
Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 105 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.40.65.66
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:03 pm: | |
a park on the median? interesting idea, but idk about how functional that mgiht be? it doesnt seem wide enough to accomodate people, but like a minimal park, like some benches and identifying lanscaping near crossing areas would be cool. Regardless they NEEd to do something and bring some green to midtown and some cultural acknowledgement of the neighborhood |
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 27 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.209.148.202
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:18 pm: | |
Wouldn't it make more sense to add the extra space to the sides of Woodward rather than the middle? Nobody is going to spend time in a median. Look at the one in Ferndale Apbest mentioned. Wasted space. It feels like a traffic control device that city planners made the best of by landscaping it, not an aesthetic device that happens to make the road safer. I think narrowing Woodward from the sides in Midtown would be a more efficient use of the space and would make the stretch more cohesive and pedestrian-friendly. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3851 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:47 pm: | |
It's not so much a park, as it would be a monumental garden. I think something like what's here in along Grand River Avenue in East Lansing could work for this part of Woodward. It would create "safe" islands for pedestrians, and help to calm traffic, overall, and still add to the streetscape. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2291 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.156
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:58 pm: | |
Detroit313 that ugly Michigan building on the NE corner of Grand Blvd and Woodward was a Albert Kahn designed Boulevard Building of 1914. It had a beautiful white terra cotta facade. Then it was bastardized in the 1950's-60's to its' current ugly appearance. The only thing we're not sure of, is what exactly is underneath the modern cement exterior. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3852 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 8:03 pm: | |
That building is also undergoing (or will be undergoing) extensive renovation. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1630 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.220.34.39
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 8:07 pm: | |
I agree, Bearinabox, widening the sidewalks along Woodward with some landscaping areas like what you have along lower Woodward would make more sense. Woodward between McNichols and Grand Boulevard is only seven lanes wide. Four traffic lanes, a left-turn lane, and two parking lanes is about what you'd expect along a major thoroughfare. Woodward goes to nine lanes south of the boulevard. Here the extra two lanes really aren't needed. Although I consider the sidewalks along Woodward to be a decent width, in some areas having them even wider would be a good idea. For instance, when the Majestic Cafe and Sgt. Pepperoni add outdoor seating to Woodward, there's not much room for pedestrians to get by. In this area and in any other areas where there are restaurants along Woodward, the widening of the sidewalks makes sense. BTW, Grand River is only seven lanes wide from downtown to McNichols. After McNichols it widens to nine lanes and just past Berg Road it adds a median. BTW2, the median along Woodward in Ferndale, especially just north of Nine Mile, used to allow for parking on a paved median. Parking meters were also present. I guess having parked cars along the median was unattracive, so Ferndale got rid of them and put in the grass. (Message edited by royce on June 11, 2006) |
Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 106 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.42.220.61
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 8:50 pm: | |
I really like the idea of following EL's footsteps on Grand River @ the MSU campus |
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 59 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 12.45.2.184
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
Thankx for the history lesson Gistok, but nevertheless it is an ugly building now. Since DETROIT focuses so much on the CDB it would be hard to redevelope that corner unless you start from scratch. A median would look great with wider sidewalks to simulate activity for the stores and shops in the area, but if you inject something that the attracts people i.e. a fountain, sculpture (look at Chicago's Millennium Park) businesses and residents seem to flock to the new toy. CM in downtown is great, the 4th best urban park in the nation in 2005. Let's see........the city spends $20 million and creates $500 million plus in investments. I'm not saying the city should invest that much money for Grand & Woodward but hey seems like if you build it they will come......313 |
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.61.11.146
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 11:12 pm: | |
The parade will now go from the usual start to Campus Martius. |
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1109 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.136.142.0
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 11:30 pm: | |
i think some effective policing in the city would be pretty cool myself 'Anyway, I was thinking it was a good idea and wondering if you all think it is far from being realized or how popular of an idea that might be' |
Eric Member Username: Eric
Post Number: 480 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.210.161
| Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 11:48 pm: | |
Creating a decent sized median would limit it to four lanes, it doesn't seem thought that's be enough. I'd like to see the curbs bumped out to creating dedicated parking lane that should calm traffic by forcing in the people who like to drive in the outside lanes. It'd would also make crossing the street easier. The other deficiency is landscaping, it's just far too barren some greenery would go a long way in making the stretch more appealing |
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx
Post Number: 518 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 71.159.22.4
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 7:59 am: | |
You median freaks get on my nerves. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 4269 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 9:58 am: | |
A median on Woodward St. will NOT work due to all the traffic congestion. Besides a Woodward median from Six Mile Rd. to Pontiac is working wonders to improve traffic. |
Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 107 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.40.65.66
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:10 am: | |
well what's your alternative to improve the aesthetics of woodward? or add some green to Midtown...there needs to be some sort of cultural and aeshtetic identification of the midtown neighborhood to demonstrate the progress it has made, and also to promote more high density development |
56packman Member Username: 56packman
Post Number: 355 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.234
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:53 am: | |
leave the street alone-let it (and all city streets) be as functional a street as is possible. Get rid of all that Alexander Pollack 70's bullshit. Not just there, the whole city. Disco is out, Jimmy Carter is building houses, and GM doesn't make Trans AM's any longer. Alex's gub-ment funded ugly-ass boodoggles gotta go. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 609 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
One of the problems with medians is that they're just eye candy. They're there to make avenues look more pleasing for motorists. In other words, you're putting flowers and trees and shrubs there for the people who can't stop and enjoy them. What's more, the median is unusable for pedestrians, as you'd have to hang out in the middle of the street. (*koff koff*) Look at the history, and you'll see that the architecture on Woodward took a tremendous hit just to be widened to the width it is now. At one point it was something like 20 feet wide. (The curve around Willis was done to save buildings on alternate sides of the street.) In short, the city has already paid a high price for the width of the road as it is now. Why squander that space with a useless median? (A streetcar, however, would *add* capacity to the road and would be a useful improvement.) Apbest: If you want to add greenery to the Cass Co-- excuse me -- Midtown area, there are already plenty of places that can be used for that. The possibilities are heartening. Look at WSU's choice to put a fenced-in parking lot north of the Whitney, where the old Vernor's plant was. That's the kind of precious, Woodward-fronting real estate that cries out for reclamation as green space: Hot, baking concrete behind a big gate. Those are the sort of places where your efforts are better spent. Much more productive than a suburban-style median that doesn't belong in the inner city. |
Antonyj11 Member Username: Antonyj11
Post Number: 62 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 167.219.0.140
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:06 am: | |
^^^ Very good post - A median is a terrible idea for Woodward. |
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 505 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:16 pm: | |
^^^^agreed. Please no more pointless medians. Widen the sidewalks, cut Woodward down to 5 lanes of traffic (like in Highland Park), add two lanes of parallel parking. A thousand times more useful than a big dumb median. This is what's planned for Michigan Ave. in Corkown and it's going to make Corktown waaaay better for walking. Now if they could just add parallel parking on Woodward between GCP and CM. |
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 210 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:05 pm: | |
A median is not unuseable for pedestrians. On the contrary, they are very useful for pedestrians to facilitate them crossing an otherwise very wide street. For example, pieces of the center lane could be turned into islands mid-block. I am intrigued by the idea of adding a median and turning a lane on each side of the median into parallel parking. This would double street parking in certain areas where this would be desireable. Another possibility is reducing a lane on each side and using it for allowing diagonal parking. The idea of reducing lanes on Woodward has been discussed on this forum. (Similary with Michigan, Grand River, and Gratiot, also applicable to Jefferson and Fort and many other unnecessarily wide roads in Detroit) Some concerns were brought up for preserving the lanes, I think mainly about the need to get out of the city quickly in emergency situations, something I don't quite agree with. But if the lanes were simply turned into more (2 hour) parking lanes, ideally in an emergency situation, people would go back to their parked cars and GTFO thus freeing up all lanes for moving traffic outwards. Then again, in a real emergency emanating from the CBD, the southbound lanes of Woodward would be used to go northbound also. Anyways, I think potential economic development trumps extremely unlikely potential disaster. |
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 414 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:27 pm: | |
Ironically, adding street parking would do more make Woodward pesdestrian-friendly than would a median (unless you want to promote jaywalking). Or, the outside lanes could be turned into bus-only lanes. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 610 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:29 pm: | |
Tomoh: No, I just meant that as green spaces they are useless. In other words, for the very reasons that they were proposed. As medians they are useful for allowing you to walk halfway across the street in just barely enough time for traffic to start moving again, as it must because of the restricted flow, where you are stranded until the light changes. |
Bussey Member Username: Bussey
Post Number: 174 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 206.208.94.60
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:38 pm: | |
Woodward has parallel Parking and is still able to handle six traffic lanes and a left turn lane. Why is a median pointless again? Look at Paris and the Champs Elyees http://nomm.com/WP-ChampElyees 2.jpg http://www.kottke.org/plus/pho tos/200105europe/champs03.jpg http://www.mackeyinc.com/image s/Travel/Paris%209_95/Champs%2 0Elysees%20from%20Arc%20de%20T riomphe%209_21_95.jpg |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 611 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:47 pm: | |
Bussey, those don't look like medians to me. Am I missing something? |
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 415 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:51 pm: | |
The Champs Elysee has wide sidewalks and with either adjacent park land or stores (closer to the Arc). Widening the sidewalks would be a better move than creating a median. Notice the bus-only lanes on the Champs Elysee (on the above pictures). |
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1765 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:52 pm: | |
As a Cass Corridor resident and someone who is pretty knowledgable about transportation, I'll make a few comments. They'll be disconnected and piecemeal, but I have a lot of different thoughts: This might be a useful link for the discussion: http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&q=4100+Woodward+Ave,+D etroit,+MI+48201&ie=UTF8&ll=42 .350761,-83.059963&spn=0.00106 2,0.002806&t=h&om=1 Scroll around. This is by the Majestic. Woodward in midtown is basically 9 lanes. 2 parking/travel lanes, 1 left turn lane, and 3 travel lanes in each direction. Please keep in mind that not all medians are the same. I would agree that a wide grass median like north of McNichols would just be "eye candy for motorists." If anything, they might encourage faster speeds. However a narrow median (<10') planted with large trees might have a different effect. Take a look at this Google Maps link from my temporary neighborhood in Portland (MLK street): http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&q=4100+NE+Martin+Luthe r+King,+portland,+or&ie=UTF8&l l=45.55319,-122.66142&spn=0.00 1007,0.002806&t=h&om=1 I dispute the idea that a left-turn lane is a good idea, except for major intersections like Warren and Mack. A median would be good for street crossing because it can give you a comfortable place to stop. In effect, you cross two narrow one-way streets instead of one wide two-way street. There is some interesting discussion about green space by the DIA in this thread: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/62684/66308.html Somebody asked about other ways to improve useable greenspace in the area. Look up midtown loop (a greenway): http://www.detroitmidtown.com/ 05/news.php?id=17&offset=0&yr= I would answer the question "what's your alternative to improve the aesthetics of woodward?" with this: The quickest solution would be to continue existing streetscape improvements that are happening throughout the area, but to bump out the curbs in order to shorten crossing distances by about 20' and to fully claim the outside lanes for parking. I don't beleive there is clarity now with everybody that you can park there, since so many use it to travel. Beyond that, I believe a transit median is needed. Two Portland-stlye (Yellow Line) LRT tracks, platforms, and a small amount of landscaping woul probably take up about the same amount of space as our existing left turn and adjacent travel lanes. Unfortunately, the google maps aerial for that area of Portland was taken before the line was finished, but you can see the width by looking here (A different part of Portland notice the LRT trains sideby side (with a wide station on both sides): http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&q=700+NE+Holladay,+por tland,+or&ie=UTF8&ll=45.530006 ,-122.658365&spn=0.001007,0.00 2806&t=h&om=1 Compare this to Woodward, and you can get an idea of the space that would be taken. Realize that this is a wide station on both side and that platforms for different directions can be separated linearly to narrow the space taken up by the LRT. What you would be left with is 2 defined parking lanes, 2 defined travel lanes in both directions, and some high-quality, high-capacity transit that can include enough space for a few trees and a crosswalk oasis in many places. LRT from New Center to downtown is part of the alternatives being considered for the Ann Arbor to Detroit Rapid Transit study: http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com/ Taking car-capacity away from Woodward could be mitigated by making 3rd street two way and directing traffic to use it to get downtown instead of woodward. From many locations, it makes more sense. Beubien/St. Antoine is also useful for the eastside (but mostly between Mack and Warren). (BTW - I use Portland as an example because I lived there for a summer, and am familiar with what they've done.) |
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1766 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 2:03 pm: | |
Champs Elyees is a great example, unfortunately, it is about 180' wide and Woodward about 110' wide.
quote:Bussey, those don't look like medians to me. Am I missing something?
It has two medians, one on either side of the express lanes to separate the local/parking/sidewalk space. Realize that as great of a place it is, it doesn't feel like one street. It is a long way across and you might as well have I-75 in between.
quote:Now if they could just add parallel parking on Woodward between GCP and CM.
You mean more parallel parking. I liked this idea of Tomoh's:
quote:I am intrigued by the idea of adding a median and turning a lane on each side of the median into parallel parking. This would double street parking in certain areas where this would be desireable.
You could do this quickly and the new parking could be converted into transit lanes without effecting traffic lanes. |
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1767 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 2:04 pm: | |
BTW, a Google link to check out Champs Elyees: http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&q=Arcade+de+Triomphe,+ France&ie=UTF8&t=h&om=1 (Message edited by jsmyers on June 12, 2006) |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 612 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 2:25 pm: | |
Medians, some people love 'em, some people hate 'em. But one thing that it's important to discuss is that they don't all do the same thing. Some of them are there to give the feeling of a parkway, such as the median between McNichols and 8 Mile. Some of them are there to usher in progress and sweep away medievalism, as in Hausmann's Paris. Some are there to seem imposing, as in L'Enfant's plan for Washington, D.C. They have different purposes, and are not well-suited to all places, and are used to solve (or to create!) different problems. |
Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 108 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.40.65.66
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 5:34 pm: | |
despite our differences of opinion on Medians, I think we can all agree that a LRT with some landscaping would solve our problem with popularity you could have people get downtown by telling them to not drive and use the LRT as well as use 3rd |
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm
Post Number: 568 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28
| Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 5:44 pm: | |
Supprised that no one has mentioned that the purpose of the median on Woodward from 6 Mile north was to seperate the trolley and/or interurban tracks from automobile traffic...... |