  Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2192 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
I almost forgot to mention this one today. I wonder how gettelfinger & co. plan to handle this one, if they even have the guts to do, at their little shindig in Vegas in a few weeks? | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2984 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.71.43 |
They should obviously become an arm of the government and enforce immigration policy. America for Americans, after all. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2193 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Yeah, nothing like playing both sides of the coin. Purporting to support decent jobs for your members, while simultaneously supporting the very same people who are driving down wages. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 810 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
I am so proud of the UAW for standing up for those workers. Those people aren't driving down wages. The supplier is. George Bush is. WalMart is. The Republican party is. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2194 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
They were fired for not having valid SS#'s. Not having a valid SS# is an almost sure-fire bet that you are in this country illegally. Illegal aliens don't drive down wages? Why do you think that congress is having one hell of a time getting their guest worker (read:amnesty) bill ramrodded through? Do you think that maybe it might have something to do with elected officials are getting bricks delivered to their offices? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 991 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.86.59 |
The UAW is supposed to take care of the workers, its dues paying members. PERIOD. It is NOT an arm of the Republican party or Bush administration. MCP, if the UAW abandoned these dues-paying members, you'd be all over it, ranting about how the union takes their money but won't lift a finger to help them. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2195 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Read the article again, Pffft. They weren't members. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 813 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
The UAW was standing behind workers who are being cruelly exploited by employers. (standing with the UAW at this rally was the Interfaith Committee for Worker Justice, Jobs with Justice and good kind American citizens.) Where is your ire for the employers who not only hire "illegal workers", but who exploit them and expose them to chemicals and unsafe working conditions? How in the world can these workers, who risked being fired from these nasty jobs for the crime of attending this rally, have the power to drive down wages? They are trying to live in the land of the free, remember the land of the free? The place your forefathers came to work and prosper. This right wing-nuts on this forum are crazy. First you all bitch that people are making too much money. Then you accuse the most wretched workers in this city of having the power to drive down wages. Jesus H. Christ, his mother and father. Which is it?! Too much money or too little? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2197 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Oldredfordette, I highly advide that you'd get a scorecard because you're really beginning to mix up the posters on this forum. I don't recall posting anything supporting employers hiring illegals. As a matter of fact, I'm all in favor of socking them with heavy fines and jail time for each offense. As for your other points about workplace safety: that's what MIOSHA & OSHA are for. If there's a problem, drop a dime on them. Although I am at a loss as to what illegal aliens and workplace safety have in common. Yes, my forefathers came to this country. But they came here legally and what was by the book at the time. They didn't take it upon themselves to bypass Ellis Island and simply let themselves in as the current batch of criminals are inclined to do. And I must have missed my post about these manfacturing workers making too much money. Would you be so kind as to post a link to it? | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2986 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.71.43 |
"that's what MIOSHA & OSHA are for" Show me where in either the US or Michigan constitution either of these agencies are specifically authorized. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 814 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Who said you were supportive of employers? However, You might support fines for illegal hirin' workplaces, but did you open with a shot at the UAW and the workers or not? MIOSHA and OSHA. Yes, what a grand idea. That'll work. I'll give them a call, and they'll go to all of the workplaces that have called them just within the last six weeks, and justice will prevail. Damn. Why didn't anybody think of that before? Are you genuinely ignorant or in denial? Drive on down to Southwest Detroit, down Fort or Jefferson, and see some of the little factories and plants that are in the neighborhoods there. There are people working directly with chemicals and other hazardous waste without gloves, or masks, or protective headgear, or shoes or proper ventilation or drainage. Look at the neighborhoods around them. These chemicals are spilling out into the streets around them, into the sewers and on peoples lawns. Near schools and churches. Who lives there? Who works there? People who are trying to work and live but end up in places like this, and like that shop in Redford Township, where there aren't other jobs and they have no where else to work. And if they happen to complain, or to make a whistleblower call, how long do you think they last at that job? Even if the severely weakened and cut-back health and safety agencies do manage to find your complaint and make the call, what can they do? Power has been stripped from them, remember? It's bad for business to have too many regulations, right? Go to the SEMCOSH website, http://www.semcosh.org/ Have some statistics and facts for the weekend. La lucha continua. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2198 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Never said that it was there, Steve. Moving on to Oldredfordette's comments,
That was the impression that I got from your own post Oldredfordette:
BTW, Why hasn't anyone given them a copy of this yet? That should also cover the question from your next paragraph as well. Regarding my shot at the UAW: Like it or not, this is a nation of laws. Those laws apply to everyone, you and me both. This also applies to the UAW. For them to support these criminals who not only broke the law by coming here, but also by staying here is simply incredible! Now if any of these people can produce a SS card or something that can document that they are in this country legally, than I'll stand corrected, and give the company that fired them a shot or two in their direction for their actions. That having been said, it's not as if the UAW could've done anything for them anyway. Read Hoffman Plastics v. NLRB, I'm surprised that someone from the organizing arm of the UAW didn't have had at least a passing familiarity with it prior to this story making the paper anyway. And regarding your last point: À qui pour de côté vous combattez ? Votre pays d'origine ou celui de ses envahisseurs ? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 816 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Invaders? Have you gone mental? I know which side I'm on, pal. So as long as those workers are not here "legally", it's open season? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2199 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Based upon what I've read so far Oldredfordette, I don't know which side you're on. Don't like invaders, then tell me what name you would apply to a large mass of people who enter a country illegally? "Guests" & "visitors" just don't fit in this instance. | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2987 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.71.43 |
MCP, I tossed that out there, because I find it strange that someone of your political bent would suggest contacting either of those agencies. As for
Oh, puh-leeze. We may be a nation of laws, but does that require every single person to be an enforcer of said law? Additionally, while the criminality of the workers may be easy to distinguish (I mean, if you think about it, every single one of us is a criminal multiple times an hour) where does justice fall in the equation? Frankly, I don't know which way to turn on the issue of immigration reform, and I don't think anybody in Washington knows which end is up on the issue either. There's too much election year politicking going on, and maybe the question should be shelved until January. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2202 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Didn't you post a while back about dealing with people/situations in your line of work that made your stomache turn? I find it hard to believe that even you would turn a blind eye to some of the most obvious infractions. Regarding Washington's take on this: They'll do everything that they've done in the past on this issue...absolutely nothing! Just look at the vote in the US Senate two weeks ago to see what I mean. levin voted for amnesty because he wants a large pool of dependant voters to draw upon come election day. stabenow voted for cloture, then voted against the bill so she can legitimately claim both sides of the issue depending on who she's campaigning in front of. Meanwhile, illegals will continue to drain off the system (i.e. public health, schools, prisons/jails) while the politicians will scramble to figure out how to stiff the taxpayer with the bill in the future. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 817 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Pointing out the hypocracy and duplicity of elected officials is stating the obvious. Why bring up politicians at all? This is a red herring anyway. We have much worse problems than illegal immigration, but you can't go wrong playing on people's racism. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2205 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Talk about red herrings! The UAW is trying to represent people that they cannot legally represent and you claim that to point out this fallacy, as well as that those whose very status of being here at all is legally questionable is nothing more than a racist argument? That tactic went out back in the 20th! | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2989 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.250.203.168 |
"Didn't you post a while back about dealing with people/situations in your line of work that made your stomache turn?" What does sexual abuse of 9-month olds have to do with immigration laws? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2206 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Did you, or did you not contact the proper authorities after finding out about the abuse? | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2990 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.250.203.168 |
MCP, I am the "proper authority". | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 992 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.86.59 |
Surely you aren't comparing someone coming here to work and support a family, with the sexual abuse of an infant? You're not that far out? You may recall that our country was founded on the backs of lawbreakers ....ooooo, EVILDOERS! ...who threw a bunch of tea into the Boston Harbor and mounted an active revolution against their LEGAL rulers. The people who formed the UAW broke the law in 1937 in Flint, when they occupied the factory ILLEGALLY in the great sit-down strike. In MCP's world, the end result of the Flint sit-down strike would have been long jailtimes for every single worker there. No UAW at GM. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2044 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.28 |
breaking the law is breaking the law, Hamsteve... Since when is it OK to throw somebody's property into Boston Harbor excusable? How would you feel if I STOLE your property and kicked it into the Detroit River? Same with Flint. 1937. Whose property were the sitdown strikers occupying? Let's call a spade a spade. These people were tresspassers, and should have been dealt with as such. | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 73 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
I believe unions have evolved to the point where the only concern is that the hierachy are worried about their own little fifedoms. You people can bash President Bush, Walmart, big corporations, Republicans, etc. all you want, the next time you are looking for employment ask a homeless person and see how far that gets you. Where where the almighty unions, including AFSME, and the UAW when Governor Jenny Grandstand reopened union contracts and shafted state workers with un-paid days off and pay cuts? I'll tell you where they were, safely tucked in her hip pocket. Now these same unions are talking tough regarding Delphi and GM all the while trumpeting that Jenny "understands" union workers, of course she does... she wants your votes again. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2207 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Well Steve, it's good to hear that the pedophile is now in jail and the child is in protective custody/foster home thanks to your diligent actions. Pffft & Barnesfoto, I didn't care for that tactic when I first read about it in Jr. H.S. History class, and I still don't care for it today. Something about "two-wrongs" comes to mind, or how about lowering yourself to the level of your opponet is somehow making you better than them how? And people wonder why I don't care to associate myself with the Machevellian/Mob Rule crowd that still has a foothold in unions today. Pacypacy_, I wouldn't waste any more of your time with facts with these people. They're still attempting to apply 19th& 20th Century solutions to 21st Century problems. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 818 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
A long rant against Jennifer Granholm is hardly factual. And blaming the weakest members of society - hardly 21st century thinking. The immigrant issue points out why unions are still so necessary in the 21st century. Because some things never change. Employers like the ones in Redford Township, CEO's like Steve Miller, their tactics are as old as can be. Shave operating costs, put your workers in peril then blame them for the problems of the companies. Keep a giant salary, lie to the press. This is interesting though, what Pacypacy_ said. I gather you don't believe in Delphi or State workers or Detroit workers to give concessions, Pacy. Should they all strike instead of giving in? I like the way you think! To the barricades! | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1381 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.255.232.209 |
Weakest members of society? I did not know the article was talking about the handicapped. I thought it was talking about the UAW increasing their ranks. | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2991 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.250.203.168 |
"Well Steve, it's good to hear that the pedophile is now in jail..." Because of the nature of the sexual abuse I work with (incestual), 99.999% of the cases result in no prosecution. The victims are spared the additional trauma of having to testify in court. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 325 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Where's King George III when we need him? Enjoy all your freedoms, spout all your ideas and opinions they will be our downfall. And, not soon enough! Livedog2 | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 74 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
Oldrefordette QUOTE: This is interesting though, what Pacypacy_ said. I gather you don't believe in Delphi or State workers or Detroit workers to give concessions, Pacy. Should they all strike instead of giving in? I like the way you think! To the barricades! Wrong, according to contract, State workers do not have the right to strike. That is why I was illustrating the union's weak posture and two faced shenannigans. First, kiss workers butt's to throw votes to Governor grandstand, then roll over and play dead while she forces open an already negotiated UNION contract as if she and they didn't know she was going to do it beforehand. She's as conniving as her mentor Ed Quack-namara. This time A.B.G. "Anybody But Granholm". | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 823 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Excellent. Welcome to "Dick" DeVos, who threw more jobs away than he could ever create. Would you support them if they struck anyway? | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 76 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
Redfordette QUOTE: "Would you support them if they struck anyway"? I believe that would make them no better then then Governor Jenny then. | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 75 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.176.20.117 |
_sj_ Right on! No matter what else happens the UAW will certainly increase its membership. It's win-win for them. But it's REALLY disingenuous. The UAW should be protecting the jobs of hard-working American citizens who play by the rules, not undocumented aliens. I don't want to see illegals treated inhumanely, but we should not have to compete with them for jobs. Why do we put up with it? Just try sneaking into Canada (or any other country) and looking for work - your ass would be back in Detroit before you knew it. But the large corporations that currently run our government LOVE cheap illegal labor, so expect it to continue here. The UAW of all people are playing right into the hands of the corporate elites. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3869 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
In an article in USA Today, May 30th, they listed four main political attitudes towards the immigration issue. Pick one. 1. The hard-liners. They want a a fence at the border, and to deport anybody they can find. Illegal immigrants in this country depress wages. 2. The unconcerned. They don't mind illegal immigrants and think they don't depress the economy nor wages. 3. The ambivalent. Support illegal immigrants to sign up and work towards citizenship. But, they also think their removal would help the economy. 4. The welcoming. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Removing illegal immigrants hurts the economy. Deal with those here and worry about border security later. People already here should be made whole and welcome. Figure out who you are... Now Wal-Mart. This employer of 1.8 million Americans sets wages. Journeyman full time shop floor wages are $10.20/hr.( x 2080 hrs.)= $21,216.00/ annual. We have always had one company who sets wages (GE, GM, Penn-Central RR, AT&T, etc.) Outsourcing. Now GM makes cars with suppliers to subcontract to other suppliers who outsource to other suppliers who use temp workers, hired on the corner. They skirt every law in the books to make a buck. Please, don't fault the UAW, fault a pandemic cancer invented by rich people. jjaba, tells it like it tis. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 329 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Jjaba, you're the only one on this whole site that has anything to say about this illegal immigrant problem that makes any sense. I had forgotten the all important maxim, "Follow the money!" There are so many self-interests and do-gooder chit’s people are trying to cash in for their trip to heaven that you can’t make sense of the situation and issues thereto. In the end what will happen will happen and that’s that! Livedog2 | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 791 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Don't forget about the various branches of government setting wages in the opposite direction, often without ever taking merit into consideration. Or taking years, if ever, to dismiss incompetents. Ask our retired professor living on the far west side (Idaho, which is not on the Dexter bus route any longer) about that. | ||
Deputy_mayor_2026 Member Username: Deputy_mayor_2026 Post Number: 69 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I don't know enough to make a statement concerning the immigration issue, but I do have something to note about one of the things Mcp001 stated. I know if I was, let's say a Mexican, I would be trying to smuggle myself and my family into this country. Futhermore, to say that your ancestors came legally is subjective. Immigration quotas have always been shaped by racial prejudices and economics. You are damn lucky your family managed to immigrate. One would think you would be a little more compassionate to the others that were not as blessed as your genealogy has been. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2047 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 216.203.223.107 |
"And people wonder why I don't care to associate myself with the Machevellian/Mob Rule crowd that still has a foothold in unions today. " Yeah, I really question the admiration for that Lech Walesea guy. His actions were in complete contempto of the laws established by the Communist Party of Poland. One man's hero is another man's lawbreaker. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3870 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
40 families own 60% of the land, buildings, and assets of Mexico. This dates back to Hacienda land grants from the Spanish Crown. The Mexicans arriving into the United States with no more than the shirts on their backs are victims and products of a Mexican life with not much future. In the USA, in an hour, they make more than daily wages in Mexico, IF they can find work. (And this $1.00/hr. is for factory wages, the wages of those working in autos, electronics, consumer goods, etc. in Mexico). Oh and yes, some get a ride to work, a lunch, and a clean uniform. Now don't blame only autos. These immigrants are working in all segments of the ecomony be it manufacturing, clothing, farming, nurseries, or meat packing. If you want to see shortages of goods, kick out 12 million illegals and try to get young gringos to do the work. Get ready to pay $250 for your next Christmas tree. jjaba. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 793 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"Get ready to pay $250 for your next Christmas tree." Ho, ho, ho! More left-wing "economic" fiction. Any price increases w/o illegals would be minimal. Besides, many like to cut their own Christmas trees, and planting them is a simple, part-time activity. And as for planting those little buggers, I've been there, done that! | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 79 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.176.20.117 |
So Jjaba is saying that the U.S. economy couldn't survive actually paying a living wage to all its citizens? Then I guess we really are morally bankrupt. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 119 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
Walmart doesn't set wages. The market sets wages. Want to make a living wage, try working hard and acquiring a skill or two. Everyone isn't entitled to a living wage just by virtue of the fact that they are alive (or by virtue of the fact they entered the county illegally). Daniel Howes talks about how detrimental Michigan's entitled mentality has been to our state in today's Detroit News. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060605/O PINION03/606050328/1322 | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 82 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.176.20.117 |
Indeed, and with illegal labor flooding across the border the supply of labor goes up, and the price of labor (i.e. wages) goes down. Wal-mart does hire illegal aliens, so they're part of the problem. As you'll see in my previous posts, I don't support illegals driving down wages for hard-working American citizens. But as far as our citizens go, yeah you should absolutely be able to support yourself and your family from your work. Not everybody will go to college or trade school - but they should still expect to earn a wage above the poverty line. How is that an entitlement? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3875 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
jjaba would like to make whole those who toil in this country. Wages are just part of the equation. By whole, we are talking about Social Security payments for old retirees, Medicare payments for old retirees, worker's comp. protections, unemployment pensions, medical insurance, public education, etc. Residents of our USA are entitled to free public schools for children K-12, adequate health care, and civil and human rights in Courts of Law. The News article has some valid points about a culture of dependency. jjaba says wages are only part of the story. The rest is making people whole in our country for the good of everybody. Livernois yard, you took the bait. Being Jewish, jjaba was teasing you about Christmas trees. Maybe $6.50 for a Big Mac would be a better example. (Or do you raise cattle, make cheese, grow lettuce, and make your own sauce, too.) jjaba, now on Medicare and Social Security and loves younger workers who contribute to the trust funds. (Phoney SS#s help nobody.) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 798 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
jjaba: I lived next to one of several Jewish enclaves in M'Waukee and know all about Hanukkah bushes. [You had them!] The parents of then University of Wisconsin roommates/frat bros--Bud Selig and Senator Herb Kohl (owner of the Bucks)--were next-door neighbors to each other on my newspaper route when I was twelve. Don't remember if they had any Christmas decorations, though. It's too long ago. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2210 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Deputy_mayor_2026, there's absolutely nothing subjective about it, this is an easily quantifiable fact. If my employer ran my SS# through, it will (and has) come back clean, and not shown to be used by at least 500 other people working for a particular newspaper. If I were to go over to Sarnia or Windsor and I were to be pulled aside for a more through background check by US Customs, I would be delayed for only a few minutes until everything came back verifying my status as a citizen of this country. "Compassion" has nothing to do with the fact that there is a large mass of people who not only broke the law by coming here, but continue to break it by staying here. If you feel that this is an acceptable practice, then elected office in Detroit is a perfect career choice for you. |
