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DeVos Now Leading in the Polls - 1Karl145 05-21-06  12:56 am
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3770
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 5:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would only be getting back for Clinton if Mr. Bush wasn't such a blatant and rabid law-breaker. Seriously, take your pick of the litter.

Perfectgentleman (really?), your conservatives have apologized for this current administration from Day 1, when they've been in clear violation of the law. These coming elections are a national referrendum on the GOP, which isn't so grand anymore. The burden of proof lies squarely on their shoulders. You better hope that the Michigan GOP goes to Detroit to try and push the idea of local politics.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 94
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 71.227.26.130
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan -

At least conservatives are willing to admit when the Republican leadership has let them down and we express our honest opinion about where they went wrong. Being a Conservative and a Republican is not synonymous. Democrats seem to be all about getting their power back regardless of who is representing them.

There are dozens of lame Democrat politicians who seem to endure year after year because people on the left blindly re-elect them. I mean, lets face it, Robert Byrd was in the KKK and it doesn’t seem to bother anyone on the left at all. He also is one of the worst pork spenders in history but that is OK too. Someone like him would never even be considered a candidate in the Republican Party.

I admit there are some lame Republicans, but they were elected in good faith and most claimed to represent the values of the movement when they were elected. Now that it has been revealed that some are phony, you have an uprising of the grass roots to attack them. This is the way it should work, it would be nice to see that intellectual honesty on the other side of the aisle.

Granholm has not helped matters much at all, Levin, Conyers and Stabenow have all made mistakes, yet they seem to get blind loyalty from their constituents. I am not expecting for Democrats to vote Republican, but I would think you would want to hold politicians accountable for their records. As it is now, they obviously take your vote for granted and feel no obligation to you at all…
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 999
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Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PerfectGentleman, you made a great statement, being a Republican does not mean you're a conservative, and being a Democrat does not mean you are a liberal. It seems in our polarized society, you are either a conservative or a liberal, no middle ground. I wish our elected officials would finally start listening to the majority, which happens to be moderates. Another thing I must point out is that does anyone remember who was the head of the MI GOP during most of the Engler era. None other than our own Betsy DeVos.

(Message edited by bob on May 21, 2006)
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2559
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Posted From: 70.141.181.130
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmich, your thoughts could equally apply to Granholm, and if you want to go back (as you did with Engler), the Blanchard years.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3773
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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course, it could. This how thing is all partisan bickering/debating, anyway, and I'd wish more people would admit that instead of trying to fool themselves into believing that their party is inherently anymore righteous than the other.

My point remains, though, that at this current time, the burden of proof is on the GOP at both the state and the national levels. They have to prove that they are still competant and relevant enough to lead.

(Message edited by lmichigan on May 22, 2006)
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Gildas
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Username: Gildas

Post Number: 656
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.216.104.155
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan,

How has Granholm proven that she is competant? High taxes and unemployment. I don't want to hear how she has to clean up the "mess" left by Engler. She has been elected and has ownership of the job and has not impressed me.

If MI was in great shape, she would be on a pedistal stating her actions, but it's not, so it's Englers fault.

I don't buy it.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3775
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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you ascribe the bad economy soley to Granholm, than you're mind is already made up, and she is not your woman. Hopefully, people have enough common sense (which seems less and less common these days) to take a comprehensive view (social and economic), and judge for themselves.

I'm relatively satisfied with Granholm's handling of a state that's economy is largely based on industries that are now victims of a global economy, and a state economy that has grown in almost every other area. Diversifying is tough, which is exactly why I don't soley (or mostly) blame Bush for the state of the manufacturing sector in this country. I'm even more satisfied of her handling of social issues and her social policies.

(Message edited by lmichigan on May 22, 2006)
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2561
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.248.4.56
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LMich, agreed that most political "debate" these days is nothing more than disingenuous, extreme partisanship, however, the burden of proof in this state (in terms of leadership) is squarely on the Democrats. Granholm now and Blanchard in the 80s isn't exactly a notable record to stand on.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3776
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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is it soley a referrendum on the Democratic Party when all they control is the governership?
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Metrodetguy
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Post Number: 2562
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Posted From: 68.248.4.56
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Governership, Wayne County, and Detroit.

The same way that Bush can be "blamed" for the woes of Michigan. The same way the former Republican Governor can be "blamed" for the current problems. Right or wrong, most of the public will judge the state of a state by its governor, not the legislature. And right or wrong, many people (undecided voters) will look at the state of Detroit (and its leadership) as having a negative effect on the region/state.
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Lmichigan
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Post Number: 3778
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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMO, the state of Detroit is becoming increasingly less important to Michigan voters, and almost to the point of where it's a non-issue. The Michigan GOP was masterful in exploiting the fall of Detroit during the 60's, 70's, and 80's to turn out the vote outside the city proper. The shock is now gone, as Detroit has fallen as far as it's going to fall in terms of status. It's as much as a "closed case" as you can get, in that voters either love or respects it, or hate it, outright.

BTW, just so some don't suspect me for a pure political hack, I never placed all (or even most) of the blame for the economy a few years back soley on the shoulders of the president. I never place most of the blame for the state of our feerer-than-free market economy (either good or bad) squarely or mostly on the shoulders of politicians. However, I do judge these leaders on their economic policies. And, not all economic plans or policies are created equal.

(Message edited by lmichigan on May 22, 2006)
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Ron
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Username: Ron

Post Number: 162
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Posted From: 66.174.79.236
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is ironic to me, Metrodetroitguy, that you can honestly place any burden on the Dems based upon their control of the "Governorship, Wayne County and Detroit" when the GOP places such an extreme importance on individual responsibility.

Outstate folks always want to blame Detroit for the negative things occurring in their communities, and never wish to credit Detroit for its positives. What about your "individual responsibility" for your own? And what about THANKING Detroit for making your very existence as a "Metrodetroitguy" possible, rather than a "Detroitguy?" If you wish to know what I'm talking about, read here: http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=4268

Furthermore, no party can assume more responsibility for the state of our economy than the Republicans:

Republican Control:

Governorship: 1990-2002
State Senate: 1983-current
State House: 1994-Present
State Attorney General: 2002-Present
State Secretary of State: 2002-Present
State Court of Appeals: ~1990-Present
State Supreme Court: Early 90's-Present

Dawn of Michigan's economic decline: AT LEAST since 1980.

Seems to me that the Republicans have been a little more to blame, as they have had majority control of the state the majority of the time of MI's economic decline.

Basically, the GOP wants the power, but not the responsibility. That, to me, is SHAMEFUL. Maybe, just maybe, even more SHAMEFUL than burning a flag. (Which is another Republican wedge issue they never fail to use to get out their base)(Which does nothing to improve unity in our country)

In fact, it is actually funny as hell that the Republican strategy for the mid-term elections revolves around .......... guess what?........ National security. (Also immigration, and one more issue I can't remember right now).

It is getting very old that the GOP is constantly trying to desecrate the memory of the victims of 9/11 for simple political gain. SHAMEFUL. Especially when they have done absolutely NOTHING to improve our National Security.

To illustrate this point:

First World Trade Center Bombing: 1993 (6)
US embassy bombings: 1998 (12)
USS Cole: 1998 (17)
9/11: 2001 (2,986)

Total US Dead: 3,021 in 8 years

SINCE THEN:
2,454 American military killed
17,648 American military wounded
35,161-200,000 Iraqis killed

The same # of Americans have been killed in FIVE YEARS, as the NINE PRECEDING YEARS. We have just been killed overseas.

At this rate, there will be a 100% INCREASE in the number of Americans killed over a 9 year period under this EXTREMIST Republican administration.

On top of that, we have all lost precious civil liberties.

I wonder how safe have the Republicans really made us?
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3779
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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quite venomous, but some good points, though I got lost near the end, and what I did understand I didn't much agree with as I can't honestly say any less people would be dead under a Democratic rule.

For independents/undecides the burden of proof is on the prosecuter (DeVos), not on the defendent (Granholm). He has yet to show that group the money, if you know what I mean. The fact is that Michigan's modern economy has always been beholden to the global economy, probably more so than any other state. I see DeVos flailing his arms and yelling about the economy, yet he is virtually silent on all other fronts, and especially the social front. That's because he realizes that he's out of sync with the average Michigan voter on most social issues. Dare I say I'd vote for L. Brooks Patterson for governor than I would Dick DeVos. Here's the problem, Dick would try to implement the style in which West Michigan is run on the entire state, and the politics DO NOT translate. Why, oh, why are the Michigan GOP running a West Michigan Republican? How much did DeVos pay to buy that primary?
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Michikraut
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Username: Michikraut

Post Number: 162
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 217.232.118.143
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 4:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

late to the game but this one cracked me up;

"Robert Byrd was in the KKK and it doesn’t seem to bother anyone on the left at all. He also is one of the worst pork spenders in history but that is OK too. Someone like him would never even be considered a candidate in the Republican Party. "

ahhh not only are there similar members if not more blatant in the Republican Party- they also elected him Majority Leader: Can we say "Delay" or what about Orin Hatch? Or what about the Granddaddy of Pork and "holier than thou" - former Senator Jesse Helms! (ask his never recognised daughter about his views regarding Intergration)

(Message edited by Michikraut on May 23, 2006)

(Message edited by Michikraut on May 23, 2006)
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3780
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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 4:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, the EPIC/MRA poll done this month (the same one showing a statistical dead heat between Granholm and DeVos) had a few more questions that I think speak a lot about the upcoming election(s):

When asked who Michiganians blamed most for the state of the economy:

44% - George W. Bush
23% - Jennifer Granholm
17% - Neither
10% - Both Equally
6% - Undecided

That's a number that should get the Michigan GOP to change their plan, as it doesn't work so well for them. They must attack her on something else if they really hope to put her away.

Another issue that surprised me was the statistical dead-heat to ban affirmative action in public institutions, as this intiative originally had more steam, and support, which would have worked in Republican turnout:

43% Yes on ban
43% No on ban
14% Undecided/Refused to Answer/Don't Know

Even more confusing, the poll brought up a question pointing to the fact that if DeVos was elected, that would give Republicans complete control of Michigan government. The question then asked if this would be a good thing or bad thing for Michigan (seems leaded, and something Michigan Democrats could use), here are the results:

59% Bad
28% Good
13% Undecided/Refused to Answer/Don't Know

When broken down between very good, somewhat good, very bad, and somewhat bad, very bad outpaced the rest by far with 47% of the vote with all other choices in the teens.

The Republicans have really have to break some of these numbers down for them if they want to take the governorship.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2279
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.230.17
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 6:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well remember how polls go...if they were to be believed we would have Mayor Hendrix now.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4178
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Posted From: 141.217.173.162
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Ron,

BLAME THE REPUBLICANS in the Michigan Legislature. We want them out, NOW!
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1784
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The polls were right when they had McFailed in thrid place in the primary. The polls also had KK closing fast on Freeman's lead the last few weeks.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1785
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Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Lowell is it possible to start a “Governor Election Superthread” that way we can consolidate the lies, rumors and innuendo in one area. Hopefully it will be as memorable as the “Mayoral Election Supertread”.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1677
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.12.91
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The polls were right when they had McFailed in thrid place in the primary. The polls also had KK closing fast on Freeman's lead the last few weeks.



Actually, on Election Day, all but one of the pollsters called the race for Hendrix. I believe that was ILD's point.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 2539
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 72.25.177.194
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe the election results would have been different with photo ID's?
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1788
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Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I believe that was ILD's point.




ILD never has a point.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2563
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Posted From: 71.154.55.15
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So "Ilovedetroit" what race, gender, sexual preference, political affiliation, income level, occupation, residence, etc are you claiming for yourself on this thread?
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2564
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Posted From: 71.154.55.15
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the contrary Ron, I am a Detroiter, but I also realize that the road goes both ways. The suburbs of Detroit contribute just as much to the viability of the region as the city, and vice-versa. Whether you care to admit it or not, where would Detroit be without the suburbs?

What about Detroiters blaming suburbanites and "outstaters" for all of (our) problems? Again, that game goes both ways. Also, do you really believe that MI's problems has anything to do with which party controls the courts and the SOS office? Come on.

Furthermore, I'm amazed that you're seriously trying to relate the concept of individual personal responsibility onto entire communities as well as seemingly trying to imply that the actions of an individual political figure only affects that person.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1005
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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another speech by DeVos that is short on details.


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060523/NEW S11/60523014
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2280
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.230.17
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merchantgander - You are kind of just an angry butt head. I don't know what I said that was sooooo wrong. My guess is you probably like DeVos which figures you liked Darth Vadar Hendrix to...and if you loved him sooooo much then spell his name correctly FREMAN not FREEMAN. Dumb ass.

You can call McPhail all the names you want...in the end a victory for Kilpatrick was a victory for her and her supporters.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2565
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Posted From: 71.154.55.15
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh geez "Ilovedetroit" is talking about asses and butts again. Weirdo
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Metrodetguy
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Post Number: 2566
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Posted From: 71.154.55.15
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob, you'll also note that today's newspaper pointed out that Granholm did not release details of her plans until shortly (a month or two) before the election.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2283
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Posted From: 68.40.230.17
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metro - I wasn't talking about you?
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

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Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, we had a good discussion going, and like clockwork, it turned personal and childish. You two get a room.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2569
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Posted From: 71.154.55.15
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahh selective righteous indignation!
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2284
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Posted From: 68.40.230.17
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merchantgander started the negative attacks call him out. Metro and I have always been jerks to each other - it is "our thing".
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, Metro, if the shoe fits me, I'm more than happy to wear it. All righteous indignation is selective, in the same way you continue to select dumbing yourself down to play in the mud with Ilovedetroit. When I'm immature or chidlish, I have no problem being called out on it.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2285
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Posted From: 68.40.230.17
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh so you are saying that I am "dumb" ... you don't know me Lmichigan at all.

Metro - Tear him up!
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3784
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Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm glad I can bring you guys together on something, even if it's ripping me to shreds. :-) I guess my job is done. lol
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

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Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 6:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ILD I only called you out because you are a fucking clueless idiot.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2286
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merchantgander - Your anger at something so trivial just proves who the (to quote you) "fucking clueless idiot" really is. Go take your toys to another sandbox and grow up!
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2287
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Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why thank you Lmichigan...I think Metro and I truly enjoy harassing each other. BTW I think I proved my point on who started the slinging ...see Merchant's comments above. And have a nice day :-)
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2571
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.148.30.22
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmich, talk about dumbing yourself down (by coming to "Ilovedetroit's" defense). If your motivation to get involved wasn't disingenuous, you would have called him/her out for attacking Merchangander. That makes you a hypocrite too.

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