Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2006 » Perceptions of D (and the midwest) after a 22 year absence... « Previous Next »
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Kahnman
Member
Username: Kahnman

Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.112.216.234
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 4:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, my daughter and I are back home in Washington state after our "College-Blitz 2006" trip a few weeks ago. We hit 6 colleges in four states in 5 days with 1400 accident free miles inbetween. The states were IL,IN,MI and OH.

In a nutshell,we went the back way through Chi-town to MI via 20 and 12 through Gary, IN. I got to spend time in the downtown core of Gary and my daughter got her first taste of "compare and contrast" with Chicago and Gary.

I had one of those typical great midwest conversations with a total stranger while photographing City Methodist Church. This particular elderly gentleman had lived in Gary his whole life and stayed put through the late 60's exodus of the city. His thoughts on what makes a city survive and thrive were interesting. He said it needs 3 things: "good schools,a safe environment provided by a good police force and locally owned businesses that encourage people to directly invest in other peoples lives." Hmmm, I think he could be put to good use in more than a few city councils around the country.

Fast forward to D. I spent far too much time video documenting the abandoned pet cemetery out near Lyon and left us with only about 1.5 hours to run the downtown circuit I had planned out - what a pain! After an emotional time driving by my old house that I could barely recognize, I got off 696 at Woodward and marveled at the mega-exit for the zoo - impressive.

We took Woodward toward downtown and I showed her the Fisher building and other major and minor masterpieces along the way. Our route went by the Packard plant ("scrapper's delight") out Mack to the transistion point of Alter Rd at Grosse Pointe Park and the urban prairie and back into downtown via Jefferson Ave.

I showed her Chene Park that was absolutely gorgeous with near 80 temps that day and finished up at the MCS where I had another conversation with a person (who must have been Ras) that ended up with his admonishment to "tear that schi...down 'cause thats what I like to do!"

The D has another meaning to me - dichotomy. It was perfectly shown to us that day downtown. I think that is what makes Detroit so special to me and why I still miss it - those qualities of uncertainty, spontaneity, potential. Driving by the Fisher building made me proud of Detroit and driving by the Packard plant made me ache for Detroit. I'm reminded of a report card I got in grade school - "He could do so much better if he would just apply himself!" Yeah, well, could the same be said for Detroit? I don't know...probably.

My daughter summed up her thumbnail sketch of D with the following,"It's not as bad as I thought it was going to be." I guess that was all I was hoping for her to see - that potential.

(Message edited by Kahnman on April 26, 2006)
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Ron
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Username: Ron

Post Number: 69
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.163
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnman,

I am of the belief that we will only see true change in the Detroit region when the older generation, those who lived through the terrible past of the Detroit area, die off, and the younger generation, one generation removed from this history, take over.

It heartens me that your daughter made this observation. Hopefully she will decide to make Detroit her home one day. Is she considering any Detroit schools (WSU or UDM for instance)?
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Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 78
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 67.63.232.195
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

New slogan for the city:

"Come to Detroit, we're not as bad as you thought!"

Seriously, Detroit has potential all right, but uncertainty is not what most people are looking for. I think we have all the uncertainty we can handle in this region right now. Spontaneity is cool I guess as long as it is not a spontaneous car-jacking.

I appreciate that you are trying to post something positive here that will be welcomed by the city folk, but your level of political correctness won't get you their approval. Unless you unequivocally agree that Detroit is the best place in the world and the few problems it has are the fault of hideous Christian Conservative suburbanites like me, you will be shunned and told to go away.

Most people here are not looking for constructive criticism; they are looking for total agreement to fuel their own denial. They long for the day when people like me are all dead, as the previous post and many others indicate. They seem to forget it was many of these “older generation” folks that built the city they love so well. All of these evil capitalist people who started the industrial revolution and created opportunity for everyone need to be gotten rid of. Let the socialists and their fearless leader Jennifer Granholm rescue us all! Long live the Peoples Republic of Detroit!
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Machoken
Member
Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1211
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I doubt I'm the first to say this, but 'Perfectgentleman' is a bit of a misnomer for you bud.
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Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 80
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 67.63.232.195
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, what can I say? When I try and make a civil argument, I get numerous people on here telling me they wish I was dead. So I get angry and say mean things that also happen to be true. I will try and stay away for awhile so you can all return to your lovefest.
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 600
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.56
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow.

Did someone get a bad exam at the proctologist today or what?

I suppose Mr. Perfectgentleman's venom is supposed to win people over to his side of the battle? Perhaps we should introduce him to Miss Cleo and they can live miserably ever after in Northern Michigan.
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Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 82
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 67.63.232.195
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

REPEAT POST
I am sorry if I offended anyone on here today, truly. I actually love the city and have since childhood, even though I don't choose to live there. I got a little angry by the tone of some of the people on here, so I may have been a little mean spirited in return. That is not to say that I agree with all of you or that I don't believe in what I am saying, but I did not wish to be an ass either. I will try to stay off the board for awhile.

(Message edited by perfectgentleman on April 26, 2006)
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Gildas
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Username: Gildas

Post Number: 582
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 147.240.236.9
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentlemen,

I for one found nothing wrong with your statements, other then the wishing your were dead part, and I live in the city. What you say is correct in many ways.

Don't stay away too long.
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Machoken
Member
Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1212
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I haven't see a whole lot of wishing Perfectgentleman dead by the city folk up in here. All I saw was a bit of sarcasm, but that was far overshadowed by some good solid discussion from both sides. I agree, you shouldn't stay away too long. I've much enjoyed the Is urban sprawl a GOOD thing... thread.

Back to this thread, thanks for the comments Kahnman. It would indeed be nice if your daughter chose Detroit.
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Hornwrecker
Member
Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1083
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.98
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Karl
Member
Username: Karl

Post Number: 2107
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentlemen,

Your posts are on the mark. You have seen firsthand that when differing viewpoints appear here, they are branded as "venom" as yours were. Detroit will be viewed in history as a city that crumbled because the remaining (and past) citizens could not see emerging trends, OR it will be viewed as a people that woke up, smelled the coffee, and rose from the ashes.

Right now, the city has exactly what it has yearned for for many years: a very liberal, nearly all African American population. The remaining residents are not completely responsible for what has happened to Detroit - but they are responsible for what happens from here on out.

If the ability to reason and ponder emerging trends is reflected on these threads, the future of Detroit may be in doubt.

Kahnman - many of us who spent younger years in the D mourn what was - as well as what could have been. Detroit could have been Chicago, and more, except for ...............?? Your comments are revealing, to say the least. I've posted here about education, the need for vouchers, etc but the brickbats fly, so Detroit can stew in its juices for awhile, as they say. Safe neighborhoods? Essential, not only for current citizens but potential employers look for them (preferably many of them.
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Machoken
Member
Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice one Hornwrecker!
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7239
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl and PG - 2 People that know exactly what is wrong with the city and doing nothing to improve it. We must improve it so it is up to their standards.

PG - We know the city has many problems. Some are due to the region as a whole and some are due to the city government and the citizens. No question there. It is frustrating to hear you guys as experts that are unwilling to do anything but critique.

If you care about the city improving pitch in and help. There are plenty of great organizations to donate your time.

I am all for critiquing the city. I just don't think you have a right to bitch if you aren't going to do anything to help.

If only the hundreds of thousands in the region that 'wish' Detroit were better actually got of their asses and did something. But it is easier to wish and critique.

**I do not mean the above statements as blanket statements as many in the suburbs are hige assets to the city and many in the city are a burden on the city. Those from the suburbs that do the most are probably the least prone to criticize and bitch as they are actually out trying to improve the city. For their efforts I thank them**
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Kahnman
Member
Username: Kahnman

Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 66.15.63.91
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I knew whatever I post would be fair game for the grist mill. First of all, a few people on the board heard about my upcoming trip over a month ago and wanted me to post my observations when I got back. I didn't write anything to prove or disprove a PC driven socio-political-religious dogma. Believe it or not. If it was a candy-coated "Gee-whiz, Detroit is perfect! See honey - move here and YOUR life will be perfect, too!" post I would have been labeled as a naive ex-native and told I was lucky I escaped with my life. If I would have said, "Man, what a s***hole this place is! Run and don't walk away from here as fast as you can!", I would have been branded as a racist (not even knowing my skin color) ex-native fueling the fire of flight from the region.

I went through D on the way to Cleveland to give my daughter the opportunity to form her own opinions about whatever city she will be a part of as she transistions to adult life. Living in the Pacific Northwest is a life of comparative complacency regarding diversity. I want all of my kids to be able to adjust to whatever environment they find themselves in and have the discernment to make the right choices to be effective wherever they live.

BTW, my daughter came up with her college choices ALL BY HERSELF. Even though she was born in the PNW she has a special attachment to the midwest since all of my family still lives in Michigan. She has been there many times over the years and she LIKES it! The midwest is where she wants to go.

Hornwrecker! That is classic. My daughter's 15 minutes of fame!
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7242
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnman - I may have missed it. Is your daughter going to school in Michigan?

I think you taking her to see other places so she can form her own opinions is great.
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Kahnman
Member
Username: Kahnman

Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 66.15.63.91
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, her music career as a violinist is driving most of the school selections. If you know of any good string departments in some schools, let me know.
Thanks!
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Detroitduo
Member
Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 602
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 84.156.56.97
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While I feel it should be obvious what I was talking about, when I said "Venom", I was ONLY talking about PerfectGentleman's post 78, where he went on a tirade over feeling like people wished he were dead, etc. I felt all of his previous posts were fine. He has a different POV, that's what makes a conversation interesting. I was making a joking comment over his obvious over-the-top venting. But I suppose everyone will read into it whatever they want. Enjoy.
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Detroitduo
Member
Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 603
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 84.156.56.97
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OH and JT1... as usual, you and I see eye-2-eye. I really get sick and tired of the armchair-quarterbacks who sit back and tell everyone around them and even call their friends to complain about everything and that they should have done it THIS way or THAT way or Aww, that was just stupid! You know what? I don't care! You don't like it, get up and DO something about it. Oh, it won't matter if you DID try? Well then just shut the fuk up!

... it's NOT easier to just bitch about it, either... that really takes alot of effort. It's easier to just move away somewhere that you can be around people who like to bitch about it the way you do. That way they can stew in their own misery, with company.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7245
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnnman - I have no idea. Hopefully someone else on here will know something about the musci departments in the area.
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Tayshaun22
Member
Username: Tayshaun22

Post Number: 102
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 69.14.101.116
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, what are you doing yourself to improve the city? How's that Capitol Park project going?
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Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw

Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.33.56.156
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Kahnman,

I am of the belief that we will only see true change in the Detroit region when the older generation, those who lived through the terrible past of the Detroit area, die off, and the younger generation, one generation removed from this history, take over.

------What the hell is this about? Most of the folks who lived thru the "terrible Past" of detroit are dead--lol---hmmmm----and i think I need a clarification here. Exactly what were those years of the terrible past?? Wow... I have read a lot of goofy stuff through this forum but I have to admit--this one takes the cake. Those aren't 80 year olds buying up Troy and Birmingham!!!!--I could go on but it is so absurd--i am at a loss of words
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Livedog2
Member
Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 160
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can anyone spell?

graph

Livedog2
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Spaceman_spiff
Member
Username: Spaceman_spiff

Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.56.252.143
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kahnman,
My older sister attended the music performance program at WSU from '00 thru '03. She plays the violin professionally to this day, both giving student lessons and playing in various orchestras. Although I do not know too many particulars about the program, I recall she always spoke highly of it, and had no problem being accepted to a new school when her life took an unexpected direction. She particularly enjoyed her student conductors, and I believe she had the unique opportunity to play under Issac Perlman (sp.?).
I know that her application for the program were pretty complex, difficult and time consuming, involving both recorded and live auditions.
Aside from this incomplete knowledge, you've got me. I'll ask my big sis about the programs next time we speak, and repost what she has to say.
-spiff
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Ron
Member
Username: Ron

Post Number: 74
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.164
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PGM, I was not directing anything at you personally. What I was expressing was that many of the problems we face in the Detroit area are very emotional ones, particularly for those who have lived through the past, when racial tension was a lot higher. The issue of race is emotional to begin with, especially for those who have dealt with it personally. I was not wishing anyone dead. Actually, in other posts, while we have disagreed, I always try to let you know that nothing is personal, and that I respect and welcome your opinions. Again, I learn more from those who don't think like me than those who do. Also, don't take a break from posting, I think your input is necessary for a well-rounded discussion.


Jwj, again, to reiterate, I don't wish anyone literally dead. I am merely stating that our issues as a region are still fresh, as many who has lived through more turbulent times than these still deal with these issues on a daily basis. It is the younger generation, who may not have lived through the '68 disturbance, or STRESS, or any of the other events that occured in the Detroit area to look at the issues by taking two steps back, which is difficult to do when emotions are involved. It is simply very difficult to make rational policy, social, etc. decisions when the issue is emotionally charged.

And btw, jwj, it simply cannot take the cake in terms of goofy statements. I've seen some really goofy stuff around these parts.

Anyways, hope that clarifies. I don't want anyone to die, just maybe some of the bad feelings floating around.

"Can't we all just get along?!?" (Sorry, I couldn't resist) :-)
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Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw

Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.33.56.156
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ron---I understand better what you were noting and thank you for the response. I do agree with you that there is a lot of emotional baggage to deal with from those that were around 50 years ago. But, from reading other threads, there will continue to be stress---the recent thread about the gal asking for directions---as an example. I don't see the problem being solved by the "younger generation". I hope a dent can be made but the vast majority of the next generation seem to be following in their parent's footsteps. A nephew of mine, recently graduated from MSU, took a position in an exurb and a home in Troy. When I suggested that maybe he could find a place in the city or Hamtramck---he laughed at me. Hey---I have feelings!!!!!So---here I am the old guy trying to stick up for city life and I get dumped on by the young guy who wants nothing to do with it. Go figure!!!
--Anyway--sorry if I jumped to conclusions but I relived that discussion when I was reading your imput.
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Ron
Member
Username: Ron

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.163
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No problem, jjw, and no need to apologize for jumping to conclusions. When I re-read it, it did sound kinda crazy. Thanks for the input and the opportunity to clarify. Again, dialogue helps to break down stereotypes, etc., which is always a positive. Adding strong emotions to our natural act of stereotyping makes everything much more difficult.

Too bad about your nephew, but at least he's a State guy!

Just goes to show you that we've come a long way, but still have a long ways to go.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7249
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.102.96
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 2:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tayshaun - I volunteer much of my time with charitable orgs, I tutor children and I clean up my neighborhood for starters.

You want to list your credentials or you want to contact me directly to see who does more for the city?

Now tell me what you do for the city.

jt1_detroit@yahoo.com

As for the Capitol Park thing I always claimed I could only offer time and money. To date nothing has come from it.

(Message edited by jt1 on April 27, 2006)
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Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 1921
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.148.25
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow Jt, does that mean that you do something more than barking from afar and cluttering up the board with discussions of what OTHER PEOPLE should be doing?
or claiming that paying federal taxes is your contribution to making Detroit better?
Thanks for your efforts, AND your words.
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Genesyxx
Member
Username: Genesyxx

Post Number: 496
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 12.2.196.17
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dunno.. after all these random acts of violence, I think the "We Hope You Survive" slogan might fit.
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Detroitduo
Member
Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 609
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.52
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Step off, guys.

Jt1 does more for this City and his local community than all of you combined. This is NOT a competition about who does more for the City. It's a discussion about being a part of the solution and not part of the problem.
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Douglasm
Member
Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 530
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.189.188.28
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnman.....
.....could you do me a favor and compare what you saw in Detroit with a compatable Seattle scene and maybe compare and contrast the two cities? I know it may be an unfare comparison because the cities are so unlike one another, but could you give it a shot? For example, did you go to the Eastern Market and how does it compare to Pike Place? And thanks from NoCenWa.
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Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2538
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.162
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnman, you're a great dad. You take the time to tour your daughter about, showing her the realities and promises and then letting her reach her own conclusions.

Thanks for your interesting observations; it is always great to hear intelligent analysis.
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Kahnman
Member
Username: Kahnman

Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.112.216.120
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spaceman_spiff , thanks for the info about you sister's experiences at WSU. My daughter would be curious to hear more about her time there, if possible. That goes for anyone else who can share similar college experiences.

Lowell, thanks for the kind words. Geneva is my oldest kid and this is the first time my wife and I are trying this "college shopping" concept. I bypassed college and went straight into the work force. Later in my 30's, I regretted the missed opportunity of college discipline. Today, I can see the absolute necessity of a college degree to realize a persons' potential; not just in a career choice but in all aspects of how a person contributes to society.

Douglasm ,with great fear and trepidation will I attempt to answer your request! You know I'm setting myself up for a pounding...;^) but here goes:

The fundamental difference between D and Seattle is geo/topographical. For example, Eastern Market is situated in a fairly nondescript area bordered by the freeway to the south and Mack to the north. The buildings are more spread out giving you a greater area to meander through and a feeling that you might find some little treasure just around the corner. Pike's Place Market on the other hand was packed into a tiny strip of land on the hillside overlooking Puget Sound. As far as "shopping experience" goes, once you run through the 200 feet of street level stalls of Pike Place - you're done. Unfortunately, I was at Eastern Market on a Thursday - not a fair comparison to a weekend showing of everyone's wares. I honestly feel that on a weekend I would be more entertained at Eastern Market. But maybe that is because I have been through every level of Pike's Place and the little retail stores don't hold much of and interest to me.

Now for the nitty gritty. I believe going through Gary, Indiana first was a good primer for visiting Detroit. In some ways, Gary is a microcosm of Detroit. Many areas are worn down but whole blocks in the downtown core are in the middle of residential rebirth with a new 21st century charter school that recently opened up. I spoke with the school board vice president about many topics and I left there feeling hopeful for a new start for the downtown area. We both agreed it is absolutely crucial for a city council to move these plans through to completion to maintain rebuilding momentum.

As you might have guessed by my forum nickname, architecture is important to me. In this regard, Seattle cannot hold a candle to D. Yes, the Smith Tower is beautiful but there are no words for the experience of approaching, standing in front of and being inside a monument like the Fisher building! It is awe-inspiring to witness the creative output of so many skilled artisans all in one place. A sense of history is missing in Seattle. Most of the pioneers wanted to forget the past when they moved west and so it went with architecture. The few historical buildings in downtown Seattle pale in comparison. Yes, I know that D government has done it's best to wipe it's historical past clean but you have a long way to go before you get as sterile as Seattle.

Environment. Here is where it gets complicated. Seattle has tremendous natural diversity. In one hour from downtown Seattle you can be climbing on 14,000 foot Mt. Rainier or in 10 minutes kayaking in Puget Sound. Take the ferry across the sound and in another hour be at the Pacific Ocean in a rain forest. In one hour from Detroit, you can be touring ...Lansing ...or Toledo. In two hours, go a little further north and bring the compound bow for some whitetail. Sooner or later you have to return to civilization and co-exist with people. This is where I can honestly say that I prefer the midwest when it comes to openness in starting new friendships. On this trip, whenever I spent a few moments photographing some building in the midwest I ended up in a conversation with complete strangers. Intelligent, non-threatening strangers. As for Seattle, just google "Seattle Freeze". I have experienced it first hand. My pet theory is the constant rain causes the natives to want to hole up with a mocha and a book and screw the effort in making actual friendships.

Economic comparisons are brutal. Suffice to say that everything is relative. My modest 1600 square foot home might now be worth $300,000 but you have to spend the same amount or more to get something comparable. The cost of living in Whatcom County where I live (10 miles from the Canadian border) is the same as Seattle, but with a much lower median income.

I guess it comes down to this; if you could have your same standard of living anywhere in the country, would you stay where you are in Detroit, Seattle, Gary, etc? We all make choices, mine to move to Seattle was a career choice. Then I started a family and put down roots. Do I miss D? Yes. Do I miss the midwest? Yes. Will I ever move back? Not while I have three kids and a wife and a stable small city government job. But there is the possibility of retirement...
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Spaceman_spiff
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Username: Spaceman_spiff

Post Number: 26
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 152.160.56.93
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnman,
I spoke with my sister last night, and unfortunately she was not too informative IMO. She emphasized the competitive nature of the program, and recommended that any entering student try to audition early to multiple schools. She mentioned that for those who are not immediatelty accepted into their music performance department, WSU's music theory department offers an excellant alternative. She stated that in the three years since she attended, the faculty has undergone change, and so she doesn't have much to say on professors. Finally, she discussed her own plans for returning in the future for her "certificate" or a masters degree, and the fact that only one classical and one jazz scholarship were availible for these programs due to budget constraints. Thats about it. I think that the fact my sister is returning to WSU after making 800-900/week teaching private lessons shows a reasonable belief that an education there would be of significant benefit. Hope some of this might help.
-spiff
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Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 290
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnman, Just searched 'Seattle Freeze' on Google.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.c om/pacificnw/2005/0213/cover.h tml

My God, the Seattle Freeze is terrifying, and 2 out of five households are single occupants? Yikes. What does that do for density (Detroit = 7,400/sq. mile; Seattle = 1,744/sq. mile!!! from census.gov sorry it's 1990 stats)? For urban life? Wow. Seattle is SO different that Detroit, it's just wierd to me. My brother always says he wants to move to Seattle, but he always cites the proximity to the outdoors as his main reason (definitely one of Seattles perks).

I must say that from that article I think Seattle would be my own personal HELL, no offense intended, Kahnman. The outdoors are great but I like people a lot more.
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Douglasm
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Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 531
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.189.188.28
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kahnman.....
.....thanks for the comparison and not building up or tearing down one city or the other. I will agree with you on the architecture. When you consider the old IBM Building (the box the Space Needle came in) and Ranier Tower, both Downtown Detroit and New Center come off wonderfully. On the other hand, in Seattle preservation work is either ongoing or completed on both historic railway stations, and Tacoma has saved its Union Station.

Eastsidedog....
.....thanks for the link to the Times article. I've been on the dry side of the Cascades about 25 years and never heard of the "Seattle Freeze". Emmitt Watson on the other hand.....
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Kahnman
Member
Username: Kahnman

Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.113.107.95
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 3:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Douglasm, I hope you get a chance to make it back to D sometime and relate your own experiences on the forum. You are right about some glimmers of hope regarding preservation in Washington state. Train Stations are some of my favorite structures; although nothing compares to the MCS in Detroit. The stark presence felt as you approach it is overwhelming. If you haven't seen Godfrey Reggio's "Qatsi" film trilogy, please do so. The MCS is featured in the begining of "Naqoyqatsi" and the sound of Yo-Yo Ma's cello and the MCS visuals are deeply moving. I trust most of the forum members have seen these films. They present a powerful statement regarding global concerns. You know Douglasm, you are living in my favorite part of Washington state - my family loves poking around the old Okanagon ghost towns on vacation!

Eastsidedog, no offense taken. I concur regarding people over nature.

Spiff, thanks for following through. I'll pass the info along to my daughter. I'm sure it will help her make the right decision.

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