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Vote Yes or NO for light rail mass transportation! - 1Jsmyers134 04-24-06  11:21 am
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 267
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've noticed that a big focus of this thread and of mass transit advocates in general is to bring light rail to Woodward and the A2/Detroit corridor. But if the real issues of poverty and joblessness in Detroit are to be solved, then we need a rapid, efficient bus system to get workers from the city to to where the jobs are (unfortunately, mostly in the suburbs). That is the real tragedy of the current bus systems. The people who need jobs the most don't have access to them.

The Detroit region needs a comprehensive system that connects the entire city with the denser older suburbs (It may be harder to pull off in the very new, very low-density suburbs). What we don't need is another People Mover project that serves a tiny little pocket and ends up underutilized.

Bus Rapid Transit will be easier and less costly to implement across the entire metro area. It would require Darta to actually get off the ground, and the merging of DDOT and SMART would help as well. But I agree first Darta needs some "teeth."
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.171.81.135
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought this was a Yes or No question?
I didn't know there were so many energy experts on this board.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 63.85.13.248
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rjlj, or transportation engineers either. BTW, the problem with the Beck Rd interchange was primarilly a safety issue. 12 years ago the exit was a hard right and a stop sign. Cars were backing up onto the freeway, even at low peak dive times. They made a temporary fix to that, what is in place now increases both the safety of the intersection, but also adds some capacity to keep the traffic off the road. Thats the reason for SPUIs, they get the most cars through an intersection, safely in areas where you can't buy right of way.

The topic of this board is supporting transit, not the cost of oil or widening of roads. Focus please.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on April 24, 2006)
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 269
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh yeah, I forgot this forum is for experts not for regular people to discuss their ideas.
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1507
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it's a sound plan for light rail, yes.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1656
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

what is in place now increases both the safety of the intersection, but also adds some capacity to keep the traffic off the road. Thats the reason for SPUIs, they get the most cars through an intersection, safely in areas where you can't buy right of way.



I'm familiar with the interchange. It did need to be changed, and it is a good use of the SPUI. However, it did not add some capacity. The intersection is a huge interchange with probably 10 times the capacity of the old one. There is over an acre of concrete on the deck of that thing.

And they definitely don't need to repeat the same capacity expansion one mile to the east.


quote:

but also adds some capacity to keep the traffic off the road



I'm confused at what you mean. How is added capacity going to take cars off of the road? (I'm thinking you might be confusing "traffic" with "congestion.") Transportation experts (Anthony Downs is the primary one) all say that added capacity leads to more travel, and often more congestion in the long run.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 519
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Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some excerpts of somewhat dated article from 1997 which I keep handy to illustrate some major areas where today's "education" appears to be misdirected. Many of those students discussed in this article are now either in college or have graduated. Some may even hold "advanced" degrees:
The Real Generation Gap

Marianne M. Jennings
Professor of Legal and Ethical Studies
Arizona State University


"One disturbing poll reveals that nearly 100 percent of today’s youth can name the “Three Stooges,” but not even 1 percent can name three justices on the U. S. Supreme Court. Seventy-three percent want to start their own businesses, but 53 percent voted for small business foe Bill Clinton. Only 19 percent attend church regularly. Only 1 percent include a member of the clergy on their lists of most admired individuals.

What all these statistics tell us is that the gap between generations is wider than ever before. There are five areas in which the gap is most pronounced: skills, knowledge, critical thinking, work, and morality."


The Skills Gap

Iowa test scores have been a standard measurement of academic achievement for many decades. And what they have been measuring lately is frightening. Students who should be scoring at the 90th percentile are barely scoring at the 70th; those who should be at the 70th are hovering between the 30th and 40th. Between 70 and 90 percent of all students entering the California State University system have to take some form of remedial course work in basic subjects like English and math. Eighty-seven percent of students entering New York community colleges flunk the placement test–they can’t even pass the test that would put them into remedial courses! As New York Mayor Rudolph Guiliani observed several years ago, if skills actually determined entrance into the New York system of higher education, three of every four students would probably be denied admission.(The state has recently begun to administer such tests, and it appears that Guiliani was right.) It is also a matter of public record that national ACT and SAT college entrance test scores are steadily declining despite “adjustments” designed to boost them artificially.

Yet one-third of many high schools’ students maintain 4.0 (straight A) grade point averages. Why? Because grade inflation, which occurs at every level of education, is rampant. My daughter Sarah has been in the public school system since the third grade, and she is living proof. She has consistently received good grades without the benefit of a good education.

When she enrolled in an algebra class in the eighth grade, I offered to help her with her homework. She took me up on this offer one evening when we were sitting together at the kitchen table. The first problem was: “What is 10 percent of 470?” I was stunned to discover that Sarah couldn’t solve it without the aid of a calculator. Another problem involved determining 25 percent of a given figure. She not only didn’t know the answer, but she didn’t know that this percentage could be expressed as “one-quarter” or “one-fourth.”

Here was my own flesh and blood–my straight-A student! I couldn’t help asking, “Are the other kids this dumb?” Without missing a beat, Sarah replied, “Oh, they’re much dumber.” She may be right. On the most recent International Math and Science Survey, which tests students from 42 countries, one-third of all American high school seniors could not compute the price of a $1,250 stereo that was discounted by 20 percent.


The Knowledge Gap

Algebra is not the only area where today’s students have trouble. Hillsdale College President George Roche writes, “Tens of thousands of students do not know when Columbus sailed to the New World, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, or why the Civil War was fought.” Part of the problem is that most parents don’t realize that what is being taught in modern public schools is actually widening the knowledge gap between them and their children.

One of the most popular history textbooks, produced as a result of the campaign for national education standards in the late 1980s, disparages the “Father of Our Country.” George Washington was not, the authors of The United States: In the Course of Human Events contend, really successful as a soldier, as a politician, or as a human being. Much is made of Thomas Jefferson’s subjective observation that Washington was possessed of “a heart that was not warm in its affections.”

How is Generation X ever going to find out that Washington the general did more than any individual to win the war that established our nation? Or that Washington the president risked his reputation and his career to ensure that we would have limited government, a sound economy, and a virtuous citizenry? Or that Washington the man constantly performed acts of kindness and charity for others, including Jefferson? It certainly isn’t going to learn such important lessons from a textbook that claims Washington was not much of a man because he did not, in modern lingo, “feel our pain.”

Special sections in each chapter feature biographies of people who have made a difference in history. Almost all are politically correct minorities and/or females. One, for example, is a female astronaut. The authors allege that she was unfairly excluded from Project Mercury because she had no flight experience. This, of course, is characterized as an insufficient reason to deny her the “right” to participate.

The 17th-century English philosopher John Locke is not mentioned–there is no room, evidently, to discuss his significant role in bringing about the Enlightenment or the American Revolution. Famous religious leaders are also ignored, although the authors do bow to the ancient gods of primitive peoples. Pre-Columbian cultures like the Toltecs are praised for their lavishly decorated temples, their calendars, their games–so what if they practiced human sacrifice?

This best-selling textbook reveals a glimpse of the version of history–or rather, non-history–Generation X is being taught. I should know. Last summer, I took Sarah, then 14 years old, on a tour of Boston, Massachusetts. I carefully explained the historic significance of each site to her. After several hours, she said, “Now, Mom, what war was this?” While I was still in a state of shock we arrived at the Old North Church and listened to a tour guide tell the story of Paul Revere. Sarah’s question this time was, “What side was he on?” I asked incredulously, “What exactly did you do in the advanced placement U. S. history class you just completed?” Her response was, “I made a great many charts, and I did a lot of little projects with painting.”

I do not mean to pick on Sarah. She and her peers are victims of a pernicious system that has turned traditional liberal arts education on its head. The situation is no better in higher education. At some colleges and universities, professors deliver lectures on the “The Apostle Paul as a Homosexual” and “Jesus Acted Up: A Gay and Lesbian Manifesto.” Stanford University achieved notoriety a decade ago for its course, “Black Hair as Culture and History.” A current survey on American religion at another school fails to mention Catholicism. One new cutting-edge psychology course is titled, “Gender Discrepancies and Pizza Consumption.”

Before long, the loss of knowledge may even make simple conversation impossible. In my classroom, I cannot say, “Never look a gift horse in the mouth,” or my students will give me a blank stare. I cannot say, “Me thinks thou dost protest too much,” or at least one will inevitably respond, “Excuse me, Professor Jennings, shouldn’t that be, ‘I thinks?’” The literary shorthand of our culture is being lost. This is no small loss either, for words are symbols of important ideas.


The Critical Thinking Gap

Indoctrination is partly to blame for the knowledge gap. This is not a new trend in education. When I was in school, I was taught about “global cooling,” and my teachers predicted that the earth was going to be frozen over in a new ice age. Today, my children are told that global warming is going to bring on an ecological apocalypse. But the level of indoctrination has risen sharply. Environmentalism has become an obsession with the teachers of Generation X. They constantly bombard students with dire warnings about pollution, scarce resources, and weather-related disasters. A recent cartoon sums up the attitude the students typically develop. It shows a little girl declaring to her mother that her day in school was a bust: “We didn’t do anything to save mankind or the environment. We wasted the whole day on reading and math.”

Indoctrination makes students passive receivers of information. As such docile participants, most public school students are incapable of independent thought–of drawing logical inferences or exhibiting other critical thinking skills. They are also incapable of looking at a statement and determining its validity. I refer to this as the “frou-frou head” problem, because students are so lacking in skills and knowledge and are so indoctrinated by politically correct thinking that they are not able to think clearly or make sound, well-informed judgments.

High school freshman Nathan Zohmer of Idaho recently conducted an experiment in science class that reveals the serious nature of this problem. He told classmates and teachers that they should sign his petition to ban a dangerous substance, “dihydrogen monoxide,” which causes excessive vomiting and sweating. He informed them that dihydrogen monoxide is a component in acid rain. In its gaseous state, it can cause serious burns. Accidental inhalation can kill. To make matters worse, it contributes to soil erosion, decreases the effectiveness of automobile brakes, and its presence has been detected in some terminal cancer tumors.

Forty-seven of the 50 students and teachers signed the petition with no questions asked. Not one thought to inquire, “Just what is dihydrogen monoxide?” If they had, they would have discovered they had signed a petition calling for a ban on H20–water.


The Work Ethic Gap

Then there is the work ethic gap. In a recent survey, 80 percent of Generation X respondents said they want an active social life, while only 37 percent admit success at work is important. More adult males are living at home with their parents than at any time in our country’s history. Why this staggering statistic? Moms and dads provide comfortable room and board while salaries can be used for fun. The desire for independence is missing along with the drive for achieving that independence.

There is no longer a stigma attached to joining the welfare rolls or reneging on financial obligations. Personal bankruptcies are at an all-time high. What is unique about these bankruptcies is the fact that the majority are not the result of the loss of a job or health problems; they involve one or two wage earners who have simply over-extended themselves. Credit card debt, which has skyrocketed in recent years, is mainly held by those whose annual income exceeds $50,000. Evidently, the willingness to save and to delay gratification, the drive for success, and the concern for reputation are fast disappearing in a culture that condones irresponsible spending.

The average time for completion of a bachelor’s degree is 5.5 years, so most students are not on a fast track. And they have developed some bad habits by the time they get into college. One is whining. As long as there have been students there has been whining–about workload, about subjects, about grades. But now there is preemptive whining. Even before the semester begins, even before papers and tests are handed back, students come into my office at Arizona State University with a laundry list of complaints.


Last year, one-third of my students protested their grades. In my first twenty years of teaching, not a single student questioned my judgment, but I expect half of my students to do so in the next ten. They are infected with an entitlement mentality. Good grades are not earned by hard work and subject mastery but by signing up to take the class. I once counseled a graduate student who was doing poorly by saying: “Look, the problem is that you have a lack of depth when it comes to your studies. You have no knowledge base on which you can draw. You are going to have to start reading.” He said with some surprise, “What do you mean? Books?”

A recent study analyzing the habits of elementary school children revealed that the average time spent on homework is ten minutes. Worse yet, the same study found that schools are increasingly adopting a “no homework” policy. Perhaps the saddest aspect of this situation is the reason more assignments are not given: Parents complain about the work their children are given.

Following last spring’s final exams, a student came to my office and said, “You made us stretch to the maximum. It wasn’t a bad feeling.” Unfortunately, most students do not understand the pride that comes with conquering what seems to be impossible. Generation X is filled with self-esteem but bereft of knowledge.

In the math survey mentioned earlier, students from around the world were asked how they felt they had done upon completion of the exam. While the scores proved that the United States finished in the bottom third of all countries participating, it did finish first in terms of students’ perception of personal performance. Americans exhibited the highest self-esteem while students from Japan and Singapore, who finished in the top two slots, were the least arrogant about their performance.


The Morality Gap

The most grievous problem is the morality gap. Sarah is a basketball player and a devoted fan of Sports Illustrated. Recently, she shared with me one of the magazine’s top stories, which summarized a poll of one thousand Olympic athletes. One of the questions posed was, “If we could give you a drug that would guarantee your victory at the Olympic Games but would also guarantee your death in five years, would you take it?” Fifty-four percent said yes. Another survey conducted by the Lutheran Brotherhood asked, “Are there absolute standards for morals and ethics or does everything depend on the situation?” Seventy-nine percent of the respondents in the 18-34 age group said that standards did not exist and that the situation should always dictate behavior. Three percent said they were not sure.

If this poll is correct, 82 percent of all students believe that right and wrong are relative terms and that morality is a ridiculous concept. This is the den of lions into which I walk every day. It is called the modern American classroom. When I finish teaching a course, I ask my students to fill out a written evaluation form. Many of them comment, “This business ethics class was really fascinating. I had never heard these ideas before.” Mind you, I am not teaching quantum physics–I am presenting simple, basic ideas and principles that should be followed in the marketplace: Be honest. Treat other people the way that you want to be treated. Work hard. Live up to your obligations.

Comedian Jay Leno revealed during one of his street interviews on the Tonight Show that the same young people don’t seem to know the Ten Commandments. What they do know about morality is what they have picked up in scattered, disconnected bits from parents, friends, television, and magazines. And a good deal of this is immoral rather than moral. As a result, Generation X lacks a solid moral foundation for its views on school, work, marriage, family, and community.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 270
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Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard, what does this article have to do with mass transit???
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 521
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread is pretty much worn out anyway. Those excerpts were a lengthy means for saying: "Get real!" Just because you're dead set on your pet projects doesn't mean that your concupiscence should be sated at taxpayers' expense [entitlement mentality].

It doesn't seem to matter to most of the posters here that the systems they want will cost billions to establish and will be terribly expensive to operate thereafter. As it is, only 70% of the DDOT's scheduled buses are running on a given day--high absentee rates for the drivers and breakdowns.

Besides, mass transit and rapid transit are not necessarily similar, although some systems may fulfill both. It would be best not to stray from their actual meanings. So use the proper terms.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1657
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He is trying to prove that he is smarter than us youngsters. And that we our indoctrinated in college.

It is funny, but from my skimming of his propaganda, I don't see any evidence that any of these stats have changed over time. In other words: How do I know we always haven't been this dumb?

(I see that a response is posted.)


quote:

It doesn't seem to matter to most of the posters here that the systems they want will cost billions to establish and will be terribly expensive to operate thereafter.



I wonder if this was said in the 1950s, when they built I-75 and I-94? It was true...probably more true.

And somehow, Livernoisyard's logic lead's him or her to believe that problems created by not spending enough on transit is a good evidence for continuing to underfund a necessary system.

I am a tax payer! So are the rest of the people on here that want their taxes to be spent on transit (LRT, Bus, Monorail, or otherwise)! We are demanding that our tax money fund something that will be sustainable and help this region get to a better future...Instead of wasting them on roads requiring more in future upkeep than economic development created by them will bring in.

Get over yourself Livernoisyard. Your POV is a big reason this region has been falling in national standing since the 50s. I call it an entitlement mentality that society serve your every whim without you having to contribute any resources to it.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 225
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.214.181.73
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm voting for three friends:

NO!

NO!!

NO!!!

Three "yes" votes for Livernoisyard. Bravo!
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1419
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's no coincidence that some of the worst economically performing regions in the nation have weak public transportation. I'm thinking of Detroit and Cleveland in particular. Perhaps it's because everyone is busy spending all their money on gasoline instead of other things that actually cycle money through the economy?

That car-crazy Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix have built, or are building, extensive rail systems shows just how backward Detroit has become. Complacency is a bitch.

Just my $.02.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 276
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 4:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danindc, well most of the US population growth is in car-crazy cities. Explain that? I know it's more a national populational shift but still. Transit heavy cities don't seem to be exactly booming.
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Naturalsister
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Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 605
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.212.47.81
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eastsidedog,

Where is that info from? I 'd love to read it.

later - naturalsister
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 63.85.13.248
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JS, please look at the context of taking cars off the road.

"Cars were backing up onto the freeway, even at low peak drive times. They made a temporary fix to that, what is in place now increases both the safety of the intersection, but also adds some capacity to keep the traffic off the road. "

The road in question is I-96, there were back ups onto THAT road which caused congestion and a hazardous environment (rear end collisions). In terms of taking cars off the road the way lets say a bike lane does or transit does, it does not. I was trying to be concise, as I was not adding anything to the transit piece, but simply clarifying. I think I now know why I've lurked for so long and not really participated as everyone her likes to rip things apart, go off on tangents, state opinions as facts.

I thought I could try to moderate some of these behaviours, obviously many on this mob are a roving gang anarchists looking to shape the city the way that they seem fit instead of listening to others and coming to consensus.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

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Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eastsidedog,

Most of those cities are also investing heavily in transit, even if they are traditionally thought of as car crazy.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1420
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit is one of the few cities that seems to know better than everyone else.
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Drdetroit
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Username: Drdetroit

Post Number: 58
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 4.229.150.228
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernois- We are all Ms-Educated in America. Why do you think we put up with this capitalism ( Rich get richer poor get poorer under victimization) pull your self up by your own bootstraps mentality???
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3593
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because it rids him of any guilt or responsibility to the greater society. It's always the one's that preach "personal responsibility" that are personally irresponsible in just as many ways (if even different) than those they rail and preach against. Karma's a bitch, though. This world is full of people that have been bucked off the back of their seemingly stone-faced high horses.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 675
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.42.220.37
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 2:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes

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