  Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 250 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 198.204.133.208 |
Everyone talks about the poor education levels of Detroit residents and even the greater Metro Detroit area. It surprised me that only two schools, Michigan and Mich St, have well over a majority of students graduating within 6 years. Not four, but six. What causes so many of the people who enroll to never matriculate? The answer has to be deeper than part-time students. Are we not stressing the importance of getting that degree even if it means going into debt? % Graduated in 6 years Michigan 87% Michigan St 71% Wayne St 31% Western 55% Central 55% Grand Valley 50% Eastern 41% http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/ instList.asp | ||
Magnasco Member Username: Magnasco Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.69.165.10 |
Um, call me Captain Obvious here, but could it be that it is so freaking hard to cover your bills and concentrate on school and so most of us get side tracked. That spoken by someone who did the 10 year bachelors program. | ||
Spidergirl Member Username: Spidergirl Post Number: 196 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.245.79.245 |
Could it be that Michigan and MSU students are going to school on their parent's dime and maybe aren't worried about taking their education seriously? (ready to take the heat for this one) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 937 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ managed 4 year undergrad (was carless and lived in a dirt cheap co-op with about 29 others - not a scenario everyone can tolerate) but took 3 years for grad school due to $$ shortage for books & tuition while working 30 - 40 hrs/week | ||
Machoken Member Username: Machoken Post Number: 1208 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 207.145.38.104 |
Add my name to the list of those who took 6 years because I had to work the whole time to keep from going hungry, and still graduated with over $30K in student loans. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 429 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Besides, many of the necessary courses have to be rationed among the students so that those more "senior" have priority. I didn't graduate within four years. But again, not many electrical-enginering seniors wound up being the chief engineer either at WI's second-highest-powered AM radio station during the 1960s, back when AM radio was king, and FM ad time literally had to be given away to sponsors. | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 251 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 198.204.133.208 |
In State Tuition 2005-2006 Michigan 9,213 Michigan State 8,172 Wayne St 5,208 Western 6,478 Central 6,390 Grand Valley 6,220 Eastern 6,541 Aside from the first two schools, the average price is about 6K. http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/ | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1374 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Yeahhh MSU is wayyyy overpriced. Anyhow, Wayne State's dropout rate is unacceptably high. I enjoyed my time there--thought the professors were outstanding and the campus was very nice. Money explains things to some extent, but Wayne's tuition is well below average, while its graduation rate is awful. They need to get a vision with regards to taking things up a slight notch so they can be even more of an asset to the city/area. This low graduation rate is what keeps what is in fact a really good school down in the third-tier of most ranking systems. A combination of slightly more stringent admissions standards and better targeted financial aid would help a ton. One thing to consider is that this rate is probably a percentile of students who matriculate as freshmen over those who graduate, and plenty, including myself, transfer away from Wayne, not because of the school itself, but because we already had a plan in mind and Wayne was a one, two, or three year stepping stone. If transfers indeed count as those who "don't graduate," then this probably accounts for somewhere up to 10 percent. (Message edited by mackinaw on April 17, 2006) | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 139 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 141.213.225.83 |
Michigan 87% That's intense. I'm in a six year program, and I have friends who are also enrolled in 4+ year programs. I wouldn't necessarily relate this to poor education or students taking college seriously. In fact, it's just the opposite. Students need more time to decide what they want to do with their lives. It may also be important to them to take lighter class loads per semester and spread everything out over a longer period to score better grades. I'm taking the minimum number of credits to be a full time student here at U of M, but I've acquired the necessary credits by taking classes during the summer too. | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 887 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.220.232.15 |
Question to all: How much harder is it to be accepted into U of M or Mich S. vs. the other schools mentioned above (if at all)?? Also, do all these schools have have the same ratio of undergrad/grad? | ||
Jimelnino Member Username: Jimelnino Post Number: 394 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.214.180.214 |
I'm in my 4th year at UM-Dearborn, I'm going to need to take 2 classes this summer (first time I've ever had to take summer classes) to be able to graduate a year from now. I think finishing in 5 is a pretty good accomplishment for me.I can tell you that the only way you can finish in 4 years is: Live on campus (or not far away) Do not work more than 10 hours a week (on the weekends mostly) Take 15 credits a semester, or take summer classes. I live in Shelby, I drive 45 minutes to and from school 2 (sometimes more) days a week, I also work 9-5 3 days a week, and full time in the summer. The most credits I ever took in a semester was 14 (just this last fall) and the least I ever took was 11. Considering all this, I am perfectly happy with the 5 year plan. EDIT: I forgot to mention that to finish in 4 years, you also have to know what program you're going into, and stick with it. And you need to schedule all of your classes to make sure that you ALWAYS have the required pre-reqs for higher level classes (believe me this has bitten me in the ass more than a few times). I'm not saying its impossible, I know 2 people who did exactly what I just said and finished in 3.5 and 4 years, but for people who work, its very very difficult. (Message edited by JimElNino on April 17, 2006) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1375 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Ditto that, Wolverine. I don't do summer classes--but I'll add that the average UM class is very time consuming at the very least, if not a full-fledged challenge. This week I will finish probably the hardest course I've ever taken. I've never thought of time as being so precious as I have since I've been here. To see that grad rate at this school is not suprising, but definitly a testament to how UM is a top-notch public school | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 889 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.220.232.15 |
ditto, wolverine, u o' m dearborn, mba in three years but busting my ass nonstop through summer sessions though. mackinaw..what course? | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 40 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.75.220.9 |
I graduated from MSU in four years with a bachelor's in Electrical Engineering. While I'm not surprised most take longer, I don't understand why so many have trouble making it in 4 or 5 at the most. Hell, I even had time to re-take a math class I failed the first time around (Calc 4, ugh). I will admit I was spoiled because my parents picked up the majority of my tuition - I only had to contribute to my housing. Particularily at MSU, a lot of students couldn't seem to figure out that you could party hard every weekend, as long as you lived in the library every weeknight. That was my strategy, at least. Edit - I should add that I completely understand taking longer if working many hours is a necessity. Most students I knew that were in for a long time simply did so because they had no motivation to actually pass their courses. I would also agree that living on campus makes a huge difference. I lived in the dorms all four years (and paid the difference out of my pocket to have a room to myself), and it was completely worth it. (Message edited by wazootyman on April 17, 2006) | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 252 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 198.204.133.208 |
Comes down to the mentality of the student, which I'm arguing is lacking. I worked 9-5 M-F when I was going to Wayne. Took night classes (M-Thur) and a Sat morning class. Friday and Saturday nights were for friends/parties. 15 credits a semester. Summer classes as well. Graduated with 150 credits in four years. Too often I see education thought of as a convenience that you fit into your life, but I think it should be a cornerstone that you mold your life around. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1376 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Northend-- UM is no NYU or Yale or even Northwestern in terms of difficulty to get in, but it blows all other Michigan schools out of the water. Let me put it this way, a score of 30 on the ACT and a 3.5 high school GPA and plenty of extracirriculars did not get me in to UM. It took two tries, the latter after getting almost all A grades in college. If you got a 27 or lower on the ACT, you're in the bottom 25th percentile among UM students. The average GPA of accepted UM students is 3.72. UM is 32% out of state (out of state tuition is nearly $30,000). MSU's average GPA is 3.55 (not bad)...but the average ACT score is 24 (about 3 higher than Wayne), and only 11% is from out of state, with out of state tuition only $19,000. UM has much more of a draw from around the country, despite much higher tuition. It is a landmark institution for SE Michigan around the world. I consider Wayne State third-fiddle in the state (among public schools), but my bias puts it ahead of MI Tech, which is probably slightly better (but a LONG way from Detroit). According to the Princeton Review, 76% of freshmen return to WSU for their second year...a piss-poor retention rate, lower than the overall graduation rates for MSU and UM. Western, Eastern, etc...all have prettier numbers than Wayne when it comes to retention, but they are also places were people settle in to live and PARTY...and the student body at these places is much more along the lines of suburban youths, with the financial aspects of that, and other social constructs such as the percieved need to get at least SOME kind of degree to maintain a lifestyle at least as good as your parents. Know what I mean? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1377 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Northend---Econ 401. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1416 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I was in the opposite boat. I got the hell out of Michigan in 8 semesters because I was mortgaging my way through school. I needed to keep my debt as low as possible! From my observations, the kids whose parents are footing the bill know they have a cushion, and tend to be the ones who are busy screwing around with drugs and booze instead of coursework. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 121 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
I got through Western in 4 years on the dot, workind 30 hours throughout, taking 15 credits per semester and only taking 2 summer classes. Finished with a 3.42 It wasn't that hard, but my senior year was rough. I wish I had done an extra semester. (Message edited by focusonthed on April 17, 2006) | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 890 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.184.29.148 |
Do Michigan Students Take College Seriously?........... Ever read Supersport's Blog? If not do it and re-ask that question. | ||
Detroitdecor27 Member Username: Detroitdecor27 Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 164.76.203.85 |
Having not read Supersport's blog I can tell you that trying to get out of college in 4 years is a difficult task. I just finished my 5th year and still have a semester to go but with that said... If you do not know what you want to do when you get out graduating in 4 years is nearly impossible. How is a person to be expected at 17 or 18 to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives??? After changing majors and transferring back home to save money I lost 12 of my credits. A full semester lost that the schools never tell you about. Don't change your mind or it will cost you $7,000 is not something the counselors are out there saying. Even working 46 hours a week and taking only 12 credits trying to pay off some of my loans before I graduate still leaves me $35,000+ in debt. I don't think there are many people out there that do not know how important college is but at this point in their lives it is unattainable.People need money to survive and although graduating from college will eventually help that people need money now.I've considered dropping out so many times because turning in pop cans for gas money is not the way I like to live. But I've stuck with it because I know if I quit I'll never go back. But some people think that they will go back and never do. So many people get 2 years in and find out that they don't know what they want to do with their lives and think well I'll go back next year but one year turns into two and so on. I feel their pain!!!! | ||
Arc312 Member Username: Arc312 Post Number: 18 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 35.11.161.238 |
Just because parents foot all the bill does not mean that their children slack off. I don't buy that shit. It all has to do with motivation, which may in fact correlate with socioeconomic conditions, which I just don't know. PS, UM is way overrated. But then again, that might just be some SPARTAN talk. ;) | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 13 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.40.195.233 |
here are my observations from my experience here at u-m: -every kid I know who got into U-M, but missed the the cut for the honors college was able to get into the honors college at MSU (this is about 10-12 kids I can think of at the moment.) -I would argue that all kids here seem to take things fairly seriously: kids who are paying for it themselves work there asses off to save money... -kids who's parents are paying the way have that spector laying over their heads at all times! I don't know ANY kids staying more than 4.5-5 years... maybe that's why U-M has the 87% 4 year rate... -i think the idea that wayne is a stepping stone school is very true. if i hadn't gotten into U-M, I would have done something similar with either Wayne or State. nothing agains't those schools... it's just how it works. Honestly, I think we're lucky to have as many wonderful public schools as we do! yay michigan! interesting thread... .andy. U-M Residential College Senior (and 100% guaranteed moving BACK to detroit) | ||
Dfisch Member Username: Dfisch Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.137.217.91 |
I'm finishing up at U of M here this week. The parents funded most of the tuition bill but I'm graduating in 4 years with a degree in cell biology. I wish I had stretched it out a little more, may have saved a few layers of stomach lining. U of M is not an easy place to get through in 4 years and I'm not sure it really makes a difference how much parents kick in. It's all about motivation, drive and what major or majors you choose. This fall I look forward to moving to and experiencing what Detroit has to offer while working on a graduate degree at Wayne State. I hope to be able to see the positive side that is so rarely heard about outside of the area. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1379 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Arc312, that is truly Spartan talk. Enough of that. Andy...it would be interesting to know just how many students leave Wayne for more selective schools. This would not completely cover its low graduation rate, but I bet it might look similar to Western and Eastern's after accounting for transfers. BTW...count me in...that makes three UM students in a row right here dedicating themselves to moving to Detroit (although where I decide to do graduate work may delay it). | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2535 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Well, I'm a current Northwestern student. I am looking forward to matriculating to U-M for my Master's (I'm looking at Urban Planning or Public Policy and possibly American Culture). | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4797 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
American Culture? it's pretty much a joke of a program... not worth wasting your grad school experience on it. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2536 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Well, how is the History or Educational Studies (Ed Foundations and Policy) Master's program? (I plan to pursue a PhD down the road) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1380 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
That was kind of harsh, The_aram, but yeah, something can be very interesting but not very powerful in the job market. It's up to you of course, and your assesment of where you're headed. I love history but would only touch it if it was my pre-req to law school. The history department, like most liberal arts here, is strong both undergrad and graduate. I would say public policy would be a great program to be in (especially with the new building going in on Hill St.), and urban planning is interesting and relevant. UM prides itself on teaching urbanism in both the architecture and urban planning programs. I believe the school is on north campus, though, so that kind of belies the whole 'urbanism' idea in a way. You'd probably want to live in central A2 and then use the buses. The Ford public policy school, as you probably know, is right behind the law school, so you'll get all the perks of living on central. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3355 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.222.10.3 |
Do Michigan college students take their education seriously? It depends. I paid for mine…no one gave me a damn thing, so I took it seriously. Had no choice. I think it is about appreciation really. When someone else is paying for it, it just seems different than if you earned it yourself. I mean, scholarships are one thing, but when mommy and daddy cover it…well, that is another. It was hard working a 30-35 hour week and holding down 15 to 20 credit hours. My GPA was affected, but thank god for the CLEP. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 459 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.136.82.172 |
Mackinaw, you have some worthwhile observations. But your immersion in Ann Arbor precludes you from having any objective perspective on the "value" of your UM education as compared to other schools. It's OK though. UM grads overinflation of their alma mater has been going on for many decades. Glad to see the tradition continue. Congrats on getting your degree. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2538 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Yeah, I really like the Public Policy program. My gripe? I'm not exactly a quantitative genius. I like History because in the future I want to specialize in Modern American and African American history (urban, social policy, social movements, education). I have secondary interests, but to keep my dissertation simple, those are my four main areas. Before I do that, however, I'm looking at professional Master's programs. My undergraduate concentration is urban studies (Yay Chicago!) so I can easily immerse myself in the Public Policy/Urban Planning program if that is my true calling. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2485 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.10.25.162 |
Mackinaw, U of M, Northwestern, and NYU are all about the same in terms of admissions. Yale's acceptance rate is much lower. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2540 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Metrodetguy, stop hating. Northwestern and NYU have a MUCH lower acceptance rate than the University of Michigan. Try 28%. University of Michigan is around the ballpark of 60%. Shame on you for posting such false information. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 108 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
I hate Michigan as much as anyone... but the acceptance rate is not close to 60%. A quick search on the internet indicated it was about 40%. Northwestern appeared to be in the low 30's. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2487 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.10.25.162 |
Ltorivia, given your constant knee-jerk reactions and gratuitous use of race-baiting, as well as lack of facts to support your claims, shame on you for criticizing anyone else, much less trying to shame me and claiming I post false information. Overall rankings Yale: Top 5, Northwestern Top 15, U of M Top 25, NYU Top 40 Yale's acceptance rate is in a category all its own (reaching an all-time low this year). NYU and U of M have similar acceptance rates. Northwestern's rate is lower than U of M/NYU, however, it is much closer to those two schools than Yale. Thanks for playing, try again next time. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1382 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Be nice, everyone. UM is damn selective but I'd have to give all those other schools there props over us. Although I have a friend who applied to transfer to NYU from UM, but says that he is still finding UM very rigorous and knows it is selective. Swingline...please clarify. Bear in mind that I transferred, so I can weigh UM relative at least to Wayne State. A2 is not a bad place to be, btw. Objectively, there aren't many (if any) mid size cities in the midwest that are better. I don't know if this was your point or not when you mentioned "immersion." | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2541 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.205 |
About.com Rankings by Acceptance Rate (2003) Harvard University - 11% Princeton University - 11% Columbia University - 12% Stanford University - 13% Yale University - 13% MIT - 16% Brown University - 17% Cal Tech - 21% Georgetown University - 21% University of Pennsylvania - 21% UCLA - 24% University of California Berkeley - 24% Washington University - 24% Rice University - 24% Duke University - 25% Tufts University - 27% Wesleyan University - 28% City University of New York / Hunter - 29% Cornell University - 29% University of Southern California - 30% Washington and Lee University - 31% Northwestern - 33% New York University - 33% University of Notre Dame - 34% Colgate University - 34% Johns Hopkins University - 35% University of North Carolina / Chapel Hill - 35% City University of New York / City College - 36% Pepperdine University - 37% Carnegie Mellon University - 38% California Polytechnic State University / San Luis Obispo - 39% Bucknell University - 39% University of Virginia - 39% George Washington University - 40% City University of New York / Queens College - 40% University of Richmond - 40% University of California San Diego - 41% Wake Forest University - 41% Emory University - 42% University of Chicago - 42% Brandeis University - 42% State University of New York / Binghamton - 42% University of Maryland / College Park - 43% University of Miami - 44% Lehigh University - 44% Vanderbilt University - 46% Villanova University - 47% University of Delaware - 48% University of Michigan - 49% Spots between Yale and Northwestern: 16 Spots between Northwestern and Michigan: 27 Clearly, Northwestern is nowhere near in the same category as Michigan, MetroDetGuy. You are the one who needs to educate yourself and cite material. U.S. News College Rankings (2006) 1 Harvard University (MA) 1 Princeton University (NJ) 3 Yale University (CT) 4 University of Pennsylvania 5 Duke University (NC) 5 Stanford University (CA) 7 California Institute of Technology 7 Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 9 Columbia University (NY) 9 Dartmouth College (NH) 11 Washington University in St. Louis 12 Northwestern University (IL) 13 Cornell University (NY) 13 Johns Hopkins University (MD) 15 Brown University (RI) 15 University of Chicago 17 Rice University (TX) 18 University of Notre Dame (IN) 18 Vanderbilt University (TN) 20 Emory University (GA) 20 University of California – Berkeley* 22 Carnegie Mellon University (PA) 23 Georgetown University (DC) 23 University of Virginia* 25 Univ. of California – Los Angeles* 25 University of Michigan – Ann Arbor* Spots between Yale and Northwestern: 8 Spots between Northwestern and Michigan: 13 University of Michigan's Acceptance Rate Class of 2005: 56.8% (57%) http://www.admissions.umich.ed u/fastfacts.html Just do the math: (13,565/23,842) 23,842 Applications 13,565 Admissions Now, I don't know what is the admission rate for Michigan for 2006, but given the list of colleges I listed above, Northwestern will still be closer to Yale than Michigan. The acceptance rate for Northwestern this year dipped to 28%. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2542 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.205 |
For those who couldn't read the long post: University of Michigan's Acceptance Rate Class of 2005: 57% http://www.admissions.umich.ed u/fastfacts.html Just do the math: (13,565/23,842) 23,842 Applications 13,565 Admissions | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2505 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.10.25.162 |
Sorry Ltorivia, but I didn't go cherry-picking for information to "support" my claims. 2003 from one source for acceptance rank...2006 from another source for overall ranking, all in the same argument. Bottom line, you can't take U of M's highest rate from one year and compare it to Northwestern's lowest rate from another year. Nor is it really accurate to compare one given year. As someone who has previously worked in college admissions I took composites from the last 10 years and from multiple sources. For example: Yale's acceptance rate this year is 9.9%. It was 13% in 2003 according to your data. See how it varies from year to year. Likewise with rankings/sources (which is not an exact science). That type of ranking can vary 2-4 spots depending on a given year. So you've either "educated yourself" quite well in order to manipulate data in an attempt to "prove your point" or your research methods are that poor. | ||
Everyman Member Username: Everyman Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.136.14.239 |
Bah to all you Michigan trolls. It's important to look at how a school is perceived in the relevant communities of academics and employers. Though quite fallible, USNews has all of the UM's main grad programs (law, business, med) in the top ten. Also, if you look at the reputation/prestige rankings (which aren't manipulable like the overall rankings), you see the following scores for undergrads, with other schools placed in for perspective: 4.9 - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT 4.7 - Berkeley 4.7 - Columbia, CalTech 4.6 - Cornell, Hopkins, Chicago, Duke 4.5 - Michigan, Penn 4.4 - Northwestern, Dartmouth, Brown 4.3 - UCLA, Virginia Pretty solid company, IMO. Michigan, Berkeley, UCLA, and Virginia get underrated in the overall rankings because they are biased against state schools, which have in-state quotas which hurt the acceptance rates and student numbers because they have to accept subpar in-state students. In any case, I think there's probably an inverse correlation between the number of students that commute and the number of students that graduate "on time". I know tons of people commute to schools like Eastern or Wayne, and more often than not these people hold down jobs and have other things going on. People at UM, MSU, Western, and Central overwhelmingly live on/near campus and focus more on school than work or kids or whatever. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2543 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
That ranking is biased because the reputation factor usually based upon the prestige of university's graduate schools. Dartmouth , Northwestern, and Brown are "low" because they don't really have the same number of top graduate programs that Harvard, Berkeley and Michigan possess. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2544 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Metro, don't deny that Michigan's acceptance rate last year was 57%. I said 60%. I was well within the ballpark like you tried to disclaim me. Also, there is a huge gap between Northwestern and Michigan on the acceptance chart. There are clearly more schools with lower accpetance rates than Michigan. Northwestern is clearly much closer to Yale than Michigan. Open your eyes. I won. Give it up. 2004-05 Acceptance Rate Institution Acceptance Rate Yale Univ. 10% Harvard 11% Princeton 13% Stanford 13% Columbia Univ. 13% Massachusetts Inst of Tech 16% Brown Univ. 17% Univ. of Pennsylvania 21% CA Institute of Technology 21% Washington Univ. - St Louis 22% Rice 22% Univ of CA – Los Angeles 23% Duke 24% Univ. of CA – Berkeley 25% Univ of Southern CA 27% Cornell Univ. 29% Northwestern 30% Johns Hopkins 30% New York Univ. 35% UNC – Chapel Hill 36% Vanderbilt 38% Univ. of Virginia 39% Emory 39% Brandeis Univ. 40% Univ. of Chicago 40% Carnegie Mellon 42% Univ of CA – San Diego 42% Tulane 45% Univ. of Rochester 48% Univ. of Pittsburgh 49% SUNY – Stony Brook 49% Univ. of Texas – Austin 51% Univ of Maryland – College Park 52% Univ. of CA – Irvine 53% Univ. of Florida 53% Univ of CA – Santa Barbara 53% Univ. of CA – Davis 55% Univ. at Buffalo – SUNY 56% Penn State 58% Syracuse 59% NC State 59% Rutgers 61% Univ. of Michigan – Ann Arbor 62% http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/p eers/current/research_intensiv e/accept.htm | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 582 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194 |
People commuting to school and working take longer to graduate. Film at 11. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 435 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Duh! Very small schools like NU also have lower acceptance rates due to its size. NU has only 7800 undergrads, whereas my UW has 28,000 undergrads plus another 13,000 in its grad schools. In the past, its total attendance was around 45,000 before it decided to downsize a bit to its current 41,000. Enrollment, faculty, staff and alumni (Fall 2004): Enrolled students 41,169 Undergraduate students 28,217 Freshmen 5,529 Sophomores 5,821 Juniors 7,296 Seniors 9,571 Graduate students 8,943 Professional students 2,460 Law 870 Medicine and Public Health 746 Veterinary Medicine 315 Pharmacy 529 Faculty 2,064 Special students 1,549 Employees 16,287 Living alumni 348,895 Ditto for the rest of the Big Ten schools. Fewer spaces means that more must be turned away, all other things being equal. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4798 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
Livernoisyard hits it out of the park. Notice how the gigantic state schools don't appear on that list until right around the 50% mark. | ||
Diggelicious Member Username: Diggelicious Post Number: 44 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.42.176.240 |
just to jump on the point of ltvoria, im a michigan alum, and in all honesty, northwestern has more in common with yale, but degree wise, a northwestern and michigan degree has more common prestige wise compared to a northwestern vs. yale. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4799 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
i'll agree with that, diggelicious. good post. | ||
Arc312 Member Username: Arc312 Post Number: 19 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 35.11.161.238 |
Go Green. www.jmc.msu.edu | ||
Everyman Member Username: Everyman Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.136.14.239 |
heh, i'm currently a student at NU, too, lt485. i could even scan my wildcard for ya, lol. however, i wouldn't dare to say that a non-kellogg NU degree is much, if any, superior to a umich degree. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2548 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.62 |
Everyman, Michigan is prestigious because of its graduate school programs. A Michigan graduate/professional degree carries MORE weight than the undergrad degree. | ||
Mbr Member Username: Mbr Post Number: 62 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 152.160.42.163 |
I always hear people say something like "U of M has much better graduate programs than undergraduate, yadda yadda" But they always seem to fail to make the connection that a strong graduate program always has a strong link to the undergraduate program. It is mostly the same professors teaching classes, most of the same resources are available to grad and undergrad, and undergrads are often eligable to take graduate classes if they have progressed enough in their major. I guess my point is that there usually isn't ever a strong line of separation between the grad and undergrad programs. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2549 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Mbr, Michigan has mostly GSIs teaching the courses. The professors at Michigan are there solely for research purposes. Their main concern is their graduate students. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1387 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Ltorivia...quite a generalization there. Last semester I had two classes taught fully by professors (one small class and one large, with a top-notch professor), one class lectured by another top professor, but with discussion sections run by the GSI, and then a math class taught completely by a GSI, who did happen to know his stuff. This semester I have three classes taught exclusively by professors, none of them too large, and then an econ section with a professor in lecture and well-qualified GSIs for sections. UMs undergrad programs are no walk in the park. You earn your degree in just about every field. The fact that the school of education, kinesiology, medicine, law, and graduate divisions are all top-flight does not mean that the undergraduate fields are de-emphasized. But yes, most professors have research and writing responsibilites. This is common at any research intensive school, especially UM and Wayne. But the typical professor in my concentration lectures a 100/200 level course, and then runs the show for a 300-400 level undergrad course, in addition to any courses they teach grad students. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2314 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.18.2 |
Too broad of a brush, Lt. Depends on the major and the course level. The quality of instruction also depends on the individual. There are some good grad students and some poor profs when it comes to teaching undergrads. It takes a special prof to transition from cutting-edge research to teaching Intro to Whatever 101. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2506 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.94.165 |
Yes Ltorivia you're "right" and you "won". I "give up". I'll "take your word for it". Professional outfits such as US News and World Reports, Princeton Review, etc are all "biased" and you are not. You know more than people that work/worked in this field. U of M profs are "soley there for research purposes only care about grad students", unlike every other school, especially Northwestern. Hint: "prestige" is based on both undergrad and grad schools, not just grad schools as you claimed. Diggel, I would say Yale and Northwestern have in common that they are both private and in the same range of student body population. As you said degree prestige wise, U of M and Northwestern have more in common. And as I've said, acceptance and ranking (composite) also put U of M and Northwestern in the same range. | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 906 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.220.232.15 |
Go Blue!!!!! the aryan race of the collegiate world!!!!! | ||
Rfban Member Username: Rfban Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.81.205 |
I think many young students have "Peter Pan Syndrome." College is a great excuse to grow up slowly, and not accept responsibility so soon. I think many of today’s students are in a hurry to stay young. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4802 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
Wait, you're kidding, right? I don't think I've ever had a course in 2 years taught solely by a GSI. GSI's lead discussion sections, but never have I had a GSI teaching the entirety of a clsss. It's clear you have a chip on your shoulder about UM. Did you get rejected or something? You'll make anything up to make your whining seem more realistic when in fact you're pretty much dead wrong. | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 909 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.220.232.15 |
Rfban......your post is so ....so something that I am speechless. Even the MBA program at U of M didn't teach me to argue your comment constructively. Kudos! | ||
Rosedaleken Member Username: Rosedaleken Post Number: 165 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 141.211.222.50 |
Courses at Umich taught solely by GSI's Chem 125 (up for debate, I admit) Physics 141, 241 Math 105, 115, 116 People, let's differentiate by field here too. Michigan Engineering undergrad programs are always top 10. As for the C. Campus dwellers... "shrugs" j/k | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2550 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.64 |
I was accepted to U-M. However, I matriculated to Northwestern, and I do not regret the decision at all. I have close relationships with my professors and supervisors. In fact, I work in two top-ranked departments because I qualify for federal work/study aid. (Michigan would have given me $0 financial aid). I live right on campus near my classrooms. I am able to enjoy a different urban lifestyle (Chicago is just light-years ahead of Michigan in terms of progress). Most of my upper-level classes are capped to 5-30 students. The sophomore-level classes are usually capped to 40-80 students. I am a strong candidate for graduate study at top programs such as Michigan. I would have never gone to Michigan as an undergrad if my other options offered smaller classroom sizes and the same amenities. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2552 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.64 |
prestige" is based on both undergrad and grad schools, not just grad schools as you claimed. Employers are more impressed by a top-ranked graduate degree than a "prestigious" undergraduate degree. Everyone knows this, MetroDumbdumb. Is it nice to have both degrees by top schools? Sure. But the Graduate programs always win. acceptance and ranking (composite) also put U of M and Northwestern in the same range. Unfortunately, Northwestern (30%) has more in common with Yale (10%) in acceptance rates than Michigan (who clearly had a 57% acceptance rate last year). Stop ignoring the facts. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1388 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
I would not regret it either. I was really enamored by Northwestern for a while, until I decided that i had no chance of getting in. Rosedaleken speaks the truth. Math 115 sections are taught by graduate students, except for a few lucky sections which get the course coordinators, which I believe are professors. I absolutely hate math but needed to take calc for econ; the experience could have been much worse. Keep it on central campus! | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2511 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.94.165 |
Ltorivia, could you explain your financial aid a little more clearly? Federal work-study is just that, FEDERAL. You should also note that Northwestern is a private school that cost significantly more than what your tuition would have been at U of M as an instate student. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2553 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.64 |
Lots of students here wished they were work/study eligible. It's nice to have a paycheck direct deposited into your bank account. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2513 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.94.165 |
Ltorivia, nice to see that you have added name calling to your intellectual debate stable that includes gratuitous use of claiming racism, school name dropping, take my/family's word for it, and lame colloquialisms (don't get a Black woman mad). By the way, employers are impressed by a top ranked undergrad degree compared to a lesser graduate degree (which is the case with many people that have both degrees). Furthermore, most people don't have an advanced degree so what then "smarty" pants? Do employers just ignore their prestigious undergrad degree all together? | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2555 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.64 |
If you want to be a lawyer, you better go to a big-name law school if you want to work at the top law firms (NYC-LA-CHI...) and govt agencies. Especially if you want to make six figures. If you want to be a doctor or surgeon, you better go to a big-name medicine school (why you think Harvard and John Hopkins have ridiculously low accepance rates of 5%?) If you want to be a professor, you better go to a big-name school if you want to teach at the top-ranked schools which are guaranteed more research funding (just look up the profiles of U-M professors and where they received their degree). If you want to be an engineer, going to the best engineering school at the undergraduate level certainly helps (this is probably the exception since most engineers do not need a graduate degree), but the graduate level programs are even more prestigious (especially if you want to do R/D work and teach/research). If you want an MBA and work for prestigious corporations, you better go to a top-ranked business school such as Wharton, Kellogg, etc.. (especially if you're an international student). If you want to be a policy analyst, it REALLY helps (although not necessary) to go to a big-name school if you want to work at the federal level or in the private sector for an elite company. Granted, I am speaking about the professions. But they are "professions" for a reason. In order to pursue them, you gotta go to graduate and professional school. And competititon is fierce. Employers like the "prestigious UG degees" but they also hire folks who went to average schools too. In fact, they make up the majority of new hires. Sorry, MetroDumbDumb. Most employers only care that have you have a bachelors' degree for entry level positions. It gets more competitive for upper management positions. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2516 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.94.165 |
Ltorivia, you are one confused person. Your 'point' about medicine didn't make any sense. Your 'point' about "employers also hiring folks who went to average schools too" goes both ways (undergrad and grad). Yes people with degrees from average schools are "the majority of new hires" because there are more of them than people with elite undergrad degrees. However, that is not always the case (think about your own point of elite companies/upper management positions). Also, you failed to mention that an elite undergrad degree is a great help in elite graduate admissions. Sorry but talking in circles isn't going to help you any more than any of your other feeble tactics. You need to wake up. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2556 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.64 |
All I'm saying is that the institution and field of study where one receives their graduate degree generally carries more clout in employment opportunities. While some graduate schools prefer students who went to elite institutions, I have seen a fair share of students who came from average schools and attend the best graduate/professional programs in the country. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2557 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.64 |
Elite companies are generally looking for applicants who have work experience and the degrees (yes I said DEGREES with an S). If you went to No-Where University but have an MBA from Wharton, the employers will disregard the bachelors. It's where he got the MBA and his work experience after college that matters the most to employers. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2517 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.94.165 |
Hey Ltorivia, did you know that Wharton has undergrad business degrees as well? I know a few people that only have their undergrad degrees from there (and no previous work exp) and now work for elite companies. Certain companies are more receptive (and even only recruit at those schs) people with elite undergrad degrees and little to no work experience, than people with average undergrad and grad degrees and/or just average undergrad degrees (regardless of work experience). So let's see...most people only have undergrad degrees...elite companies look for work experience (often meaning work at other elite companies...and you pretty much only get into thoes companies with the elite undergrad degree)...if you went to No-name undergrad university your chances of going to Big-time grad school are much harder...If you went to no name undergrad university your chances of working at big-time company are that much harder Again it goes both ways, and again talking in circles isn't going to help you. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2560 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.234.64 |
And it still doesn't mean that MBAs from Kellogg, Harvard, (who don't have undergraduate business programs) will cease to exist. Oh please, one of our guest speakers received her MBA from Kellogg and went to college at VIRGINIA UNION University. She may had not worked at Goldman Sachs as an undergraduate, but she is raking in $$$ and serves on many company boards. She is "famous" because of where she got her graduate degree and through her work experience. Oh yeah, network network network! And she's under 40 years old. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2518 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.94.165 |
Ltorivia, that would be called the exception rather than the rule. Talking in circles... | ||
Umstucoach Member Username: Umstucoach Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Wow, this post went downhil. If you can get into a top-flight grad school and got your 4 year degree at a school that might not be as well-known, that will help in employment. It is harder and harder to do, but many grad schools are really selective when it comes to their admissions and don't necessarily look at grades or GRE scores when they are looking for a group to admit. At the history department @ UM, it's been funny for me. When I have a class with a discussion section it is either a good GSI with a bad lecturing from the prof, or a bad GSI with a great lectuing from the prof. Teaching an entry level class really doesn't do much for the prof, yet if an undergrad has his/her only experience in a field with a bad GSI, it creates a real negative experience. I've been real lucky to have had classes with profs who have run historical libraries and help run the grad program in history and have had many years experience in historical research and educating. If students do a little research about the prof before they select a class, that might help. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2561 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
It is not the exception when I know plenty of people who didn't go to "top 100 schools" yet they got into the top law, medicine, MBA programs in the country. If you have "hook" about yourself and demonstrated yourself well (excellent grades, leadership skills, work references, etc.), the adcoms will admit that person. Xavier pre-Katrina is a HBCU, yet they have one of the highest matriculation rate of students entering medicine school. Obviously, the top schools know that it has an excellent pre-med program. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1390 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
a little while back in this epic back and forth, somebody's riposte brought up the distinction between professional grad school and other grad school degrees. This is awfully important. Having good professional schools are key for many schools, with Wayne State being a prime example--respected law school, above average medical and getting near top-flight pharmacy. Now, I register with the argument that says, in preparation for professional school, where you get your first degree and what your degree is in matters quite a bit. Some people try to dimish it. Of course you can get into UM law from a third tier public school if your grades are good, though; but those same grades at a top 25 school give you a major nod over the rest. Employers hiring people out of professional school will mainly focus on where you got your law/medicine/etc. degree, and not the fact that you got a BS in Bio at a small or lesser known school. I don't know much about employers hiring people with other grad degrees, but I expect interpretations to be more liberal, with different employers emphasizing different aspects of your resume. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2564 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Having good professional schools are key for many schools, with Wayne State being a prime example--respected law school, above average medical and getting near top-flight pharmacy. Employers hiring people out of professional school will mainly focus on where you got your law/medicine/etc. degree, and not the fact that you got a BS in Bio at a small or lesser known school Thank you. | ||
Umstucoach Member Username: Umstucoach Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Mackinaw-- Good points. One only has to look at this post to see that you have a credible arguement. If you can get into UM med school its not going to matter if you got an undergrad degree at (for example) Ferris or UM. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2519 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.10.19.150 |
Again Ltorivia with the cherry-picking. Let me guess, you "didn't see" the rest of Mackinaw's post. Likewise, I know plenty of people that have top jobs at top companies and only have an undergrad degree. Again, most people DO NOT have an advanced degree. And yes an undergrad degree (in many fields) from U of M does carry significant weight. Trying to diminish that fact, as well as trying to diminish the value of an undergrad degree from a top school, is disingenuous to say the least. Ltorivia, constantly trying to downplay U of M while hyping Northwestern (always tying it to the top Ivy League schools) as well as claiming that you (as an undergrad student) know more than US News and World Report, Princeton Review, or even someone that has finished school and worked in this field (such as myself) is incredibly arrogant. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2568 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.217 |
MetroDumbDumb: Again, the prestige of the graduate program far EXCEEDS the prestige of the undergraduate program, depending upon where and what you want to do as a career (e.g. the professions require education beyond a bachelors' degree AND pay more attention to where you got your graduate degree and work experience.) Northwestern is better than Michigan when it comes to a quality undergraduate education. However, I have no problem saying that Michigan is superior at the graduate and professional level. When universities boast about their individual schools, they usually pay more attention to the graduate rankings. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 441 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The only Ivy League calibre school in the Chicago area is the University of Chicago. NU is OK, but is highly overrated--primarily due to its tiny size along with a good number of applicants and its snob appeal. I needn't demonstrate the snob appeal aspect, as this thread is thoroughly laced with it. This mindset is an alternative often substituted for a substantial education: It's not what one knows but who... The main consideration is what kids and young adults achieve during their school years and not that much, really, about those locations during those years. Education is a personal thing, anyway, and a very decent education could be acquired outside of elite formal education locales. Even in DPS facilities. Sorry, L, but I believe that Urban Studies is yet another basket-weaving type of study that students use to get high GPAs for admission into law or grad schools without really having to work hard to achieve. Ten dozen grads in that field are worth a dollar. Without governmental spending, these graduates are desperate for employment because many of them blew away their education by not taking substantive coursework. I'm sure that there are exceptions, but they will most likely be rare. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2570 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.217 |
Livernois, University of Chicago is famous for its graduate programs. I won't deny that Chicago is clearly in a class of its own. However, I know plenty of undergraduate students who transferred from Chicago to Northwestern. All of them said Northwestern has a better undergrad program. How is Northwestern overrated when it has some of the most top-ranked graduate programs in Communications (NU Alumni in Theater and Film is HUGE), Journalism (Medill? #1 or #2 program in the country), Business (Kellogg? I guess they're "overrated"), highly respected T14 Law School, top-10 Education school, Medicine (another top-ranked medical school) and more? When I work in two departments as a work/study student that rival Harvard, Michigan, Yale and more? Livernoisyard, you are clearly delusional. Oh yeah, keep thinking to yourself that all liberal arts or non-engineering majors are foolish to pursue. We might as well say that Math, Economics, Political Science, Sociology and History are basket-weaving majors as well since you need graduate education for those as well! (You know how dumb you sound?) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3359 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.222.10.3 |
heh, Bill Gates and many ultra-rich folks never even finished undergrad. Go figure... | ||
Kova Member Username: Kova Post Number: 219 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 141.211.120.204 |
A relative of mine graduated from Northwestern about 6 years ago. Had a perfect ACT. Worked full time in her Jr and Senior years at a startup tech company (that is still around today) and then graduated with both Econ and Psychology Majors. 3 years later she realized it wasn’t for her and now she is in her final stages of becoming a Veterinarian Technician. At least she is happy  | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4803 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
Seems to me that Ltorivia is trying to justify to herself why she went to NU over UM by making shit up and overinflating the quality of an NU education while diminishing the value of a UM education. But, hey, I'm a Michigan student, and by Ltorivia's logic I shouldn't be able to understand her enlightened Northwestern point of view... What a trainwreck of a thread this has become. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2572 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
A UM GRADUATE education is excellent. I just wouldn't go there for undergrad. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4804 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
So an undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan is worthless? | ||
Kova Member Username: Kova Post Number: 221 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 141.213.184.173 |
What I've learned from this thread is that arrogant people attend both UofM and Northwestern and just about every other college out there. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2573 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.173 |
No, but there are better (and cheaper) schools to attend for an undergraduate education. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4805 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
So that means that people shouldn't go to Michigan for undergrad because you think there are better and cheaper options? It's funny, because I know you're being completely serious about this. For what I'm paying at the University of Michigan, I get access to one of the largest and broadest library systems in the world. Yes, the world. I get to consider pretty much any major I can think of. I have access to class options that allow me to explore pretty much anything i'm interested in. Your assessment of the University of Michigan is not one of reality, but perhaps rather jealousy and an attempt to make yourself feel better for attending Northwestern. Northwestern is a fabulous school, and in many respects superior to UM. At the same time, I think you vastly underestimate Michigan's undergraduate program. The fact that you continually attempt to diminish the quality of a University of Michigan education leads me to believe that you have an alterior motive. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1392 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
"Northwestern is better than Michigan when it comes to a quality undergraduate education. However, I have no problem saying that Michigan is superior at the graduate and professional level. " Just to clarify, you're saying that Michigan is superior to NW in its grad/professional schools? Maybe, maybe not. They're both awesome, I'll leave it at that. NW has a kick-ass school of journalism... Northwestern is harder to get into and much smaller, so I'll agree that it is probably superior for undergrad; nonetheless, give UM its props. We're still top 25 in UNDERGRAD, so LS & A kids like me aren't a bunch of shmucks. The_aram...from one umicher to another, it's "ulterior motive." I just wanted to point that out so no Wildcats or, God forbid, Spartans jumped in on you. All in fun and games... 92 posts for this already...a combination of detroityes being heavily frequented by college folk, and one hell of a back and forth between Lt and Metro. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4806 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
Yeah, just realized that. My brain is fried, I just got out of a 2-hour Russian history final exam at 6... I'm surprised I can put a coherant thought together right now. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 445 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Yeah! But you probably meant "coherent." | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4807 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
OK, I quit. Today is just not my day. I'm going to go try to get hit by a bus. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1394 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Sorry, the_aram. I already feel like I've been hit by a bus...had an econ final earlier. | ||
Umstucoach Member Username: Umstucoach Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Why does my last semester at UM seem to have the hardest finals week? Exams, papers, and no sleep...oh my! | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 240 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
NO, we don't take Collage seriously at all | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2521 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.228.56.220 |
Likewise Ltorivia, I've WORKED/consulted with many students on their college choices. Funny how they had the Ivies, little Ivies, Stanford, Hopkins, Duke, MIT, and even THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO in their choices, yet no U of M, Notre Dame, and NORTHWESTERN (3 schools that are routinely grouped together in the minds of students/parents/hiring folks/rankings/etc). Guess what, U of C and Northwestern routinely trade places in the rankings never apart by more than 2 or 3 spots in any one given year. So once again, you tried to diminish another top school (Chicago) in order to try and hype Northwestern. Again Ltorivia, your insecurity, Ivy League envy, U of M dislike, arrogance, immaturity, lack of debate skills (name-calling, selective interpretation of data, citing "sources" such as Rasputin, "The Michigan Citizen", what "family and friends told you", gratuitous claims of racism, and other anectdotal nonsense), and lack of real-world experience demonstrates that you have a long, long way to go. Graduate first, then maybe get another degree, and certainly some life experience as well as real work experience (not part-time during college work study) before you claim to know more than people that have already come before you, much less professional outfits like USN&WR, PR, etc. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2581 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.144 |
MetroDumbDumb, you simply cannot read. I have no problems with University of Chicago when it comes to GRADUATE programs. However, I would never attend University of Chicago as an undergraduate. Just like I would never attend University of Michigan for undergraduate studies. Yet I have no problem applying to Michigan's graduate schools. Stop talking in circles. You are the one who has issues: you might as well tell folks (and we're still waiting on the Non-Detroit Issues Forum) for you to say: "I am annoying pest and therefore please ridicule me." | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2582 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.144 |
Likewise Ltorivia, I've WORKED/consulted with many students on their college choices. Funny how they had the Ivies, little Ivies, Stanford, Hopkins, Duke, MIT, and even THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO in their choices, yet no U of M, Notre Dame, and NORTHWESTERN (3 schools that are routinely grouped together in the minds of students/parents/hiring folks/rankings/etc) More hearsay. No substance. Hopkins and Chicago are overrated in their undergraduate programs. I don't know any student who will cry if they had to attend Northwestern instead of Duke, Michigan, Chicago, or Hopkins. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2583 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.144 |
Since you are obviously an illiterate, all-knowing but off-target nusiance, why don't you check out this thread and see how others feel about you: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5843/70867.html?11456009 33 | ||
Rosedaleken Member Username: Rosedaleken Post Number: 167 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.43.122.151 |
Departments have varying quality and class sizes at Michigan. If I switched from Mich Engineering to NW it'd be a huge step down. People, cut her some slack here For what Lt is studying (which, admittedly, seems nebulous) you have chosen an outstanding school. Just try not to generalize too much. Then again, in 8 days, I will no longer care. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 473 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Over the years, the undergrad Chemical Engineering curriculum at the University of Wisconsin was usually in second place, following the University of Minnesota and ahead of MIT. That was my second engineering course of study. NU would be a big step down. The University of Wisconsin had the highest national first-time passing rate of the Uniform CPA exam for decades, with the University of Illinois in second place. Third place was quite a bit down in its passing rate. [I passed it myself the first time after getting a measley BSEE.] NU would be a major step down for that also. There are some limited areas such as Journalism where NU is fine. However, a journalism major coming out of college in general earns only one-half as much as a BS in electrical or chemical engineering... Purdue has the best overall engineering department in the Big Ten and is highly respected throughout the nation. NU is not a powerhouse in engineering except in materials science, but mostly at its graduate school in that respect. (Message edited by livernoisyard on April 22, 2006) | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2584 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Obviously, engineering is an exception for other majors because you don't need a graduate degree to pursue multiple employment opportunities. Many professional careers require graduate degrees. One of my best friends graduated from Northwestern Engineering, and he's now an Electrical Engineering MS/PhD student at Stanford University. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4809 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
So, basically the extent of your argument is that everywhere else is good for graduate programs, but Northwestern is clearly head and shoulders above the rest for undergrad because you chose to go there and don't regret it. What a fantastic, logical argument! | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2588 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Um, I never said that, aram. Maybe you need to go back and read the entire forum to find where I even said that Northwestern is the best undergraduate program to attend in the world. Nice way to twist words and make lies. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3362 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.209.191.183 |
ok, so you're pissed you didnt get into Michigan for undergard. Get over it! | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2593 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Patrick, I got into Michigan for undergraduate. I got into Northwestern too. What a nice way in making yourself look foolish. |
