  Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2502 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.150 |
Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey were among the top five states in the percentage of adults with college degrees in 2004. But the Northeast placed no city among the top five, and only one from the region — Boston — was in the top 20. Cities with few college graduates have a hard time generating good-paying jobs. That, in turn, makes it hard to attract more college graduates, said Richard Vedder, an economics professor at Ohio University. Cities such as Newark, N.J.; Detroit and Cleveland have relatively few college graduates, which helps explain why they are struggling to recover from the decline of U.S. manufacturing, Vedder said. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12 254224/ | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.176.163 |
I don't think it's newsworthy data that a city with a high ratio of manufacturing jobs compared to higher skilled jobs has a low percentage of college grads. There should be a pretty direct relationship. We should be looking at how many college grads Detroit produces relative to the number of jobs requiring college degrees. Ann Arbor produces a boatload of degrees every year then loses most of them. Ann Arbor is fairly cosmopolitan for its small size and has a good economic outlook but it's still too small compared to the San Franciscos and New Yorks and it doesn't have every kind of job to fit every kind of degree. This is where in another city with a nearby college town, the new grads would move to the city but it's not happening much from Ann Arbor to Detroit. I think more of them would consider Detroit if they were exposed to its cultural amenities more, then it would be a matter of finding them jobs. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 401 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Metro Detroit should have done something about its rampant anti-intellectualism before its self-induced cancer became terminal. Detroit is so far down academically, and there's so little time left before its retentive excrement hits the fan. And those who do attend college often take ridiculous courses/majors that will surely doom them to requiring governmental assistance afterwards... Parents Fail to Push for Education: Poll shows hurdles for state's effort to shift economy's focus from brawn to brains. (Detroit News, May 1, 2005) Originally Posted at www.detnews.com/2005/schools/0 505/01/A01-167664.htm By Francis X. Donnelly and Marisa Schultz / The Detroit News For Clare Barwick, it's not vital that her two children go to college. More important is their happiness. The Canton homemaker won't measure her children's success by their scholarly prowess. "I think it could be very satisfying for someone to be doing something they love, such as planting trees," she said. People like Barwick scare the dickens out of Michigan business and school leaders, who believe the economic future of the state depends on more schooling of its citizenry. As its manufacturing base erodes and the state tries to shift from brawn-based industries to brain-based ones, residents still have complacent views toward advanced education and training, according to a poll released today. The survey of Michigan parents found: • Nearly half of parents don't think everyone should have a college education nor do they trust the judgment of teachers and professors. • Three out of five define the success of their children without reference to education or the ability to support themselves. • Only one in four believes a good education is essential for getting ahead in life. Among minorities, there is greater support for post-secondary schooling, but less financial means to make it happen. The findings present yet another hurdle for an initiative by Gov. Jennifer Granholm to double the number of college grads in Michigan within a decade. It also left some school and business leaders flabbergasted. "It's fairly amazing in this day and age if they don't think it's important," said Greg Handel, senior director of work force development for the Detroit Regional Chamber. "They need to wake up." The poll involved telephone interviews with 1,544 parents and guardians across Michigan from April 1 to April 25. It was conducted by the Lansing-based EPIC/MRA polling firm, in conjunction with The Detroit News, for the Sault Tribe of Chippewa Indians and Your Child, a group of education organizations in the state. Michael Boulus, executive director of the Presidents Council, State Universities of Michigan, which represents the state's 15 universities, said parents and counselors need to begin encouraging children early in their lives to attend college. "You can't succeed today without some sort of post-secondary credential," he said. Economic impact The Michigan populace is ill-equipped to the fill jobs in the growing fields of health care and technology. The state ranks 37th in the nation in the number of residents with college degrees, according to a recent study by Kurt Metzger, research director for the Center for Urban Studies at Wayne State University. A quarter of the residents older than 25 have bachelor's degrees. That hurts Michigan as much as its residents, scholars said. The state is trying to pump up its economy by attracting businesses, but companies prefer states where they can draw many talented workers. Paul Massaron, a Southfield consultant on community redevelopment, said residents' blithe views toward higher education have ramifications that are economic, social and cultural. "It's the difference between having a $28,000-a-year job versus a $48,000 one," he said. "We could end up being a backwater state." Americans raise their annual earnings by 10 percent for each additional year they go to college, according to federal data. In 2003, high school graduates had an unemployment rate of 5.5 percent and earned a median weekly salary of $554, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. That year, people with bachelor's degrees had an unemployment rate of 3.3 percent and had median weekly earnings of $900. Michiganians' satisfaction with a high school diploma stems from the state's signature industry, where all one needed for a high-paying job in an auto plant was a diploma. But the factories are closing, and residents need to exchange their lunch buckets for briefcases, school leaders say. Margaret Trimer-Hartley, spokeswoman for the Michigan Education Association, said high schools could encourage students to further their education through mentoring programs and vocational courses. It's an uphill battle, she conceded. School counselors could help get students excited but they're often outmanned, with one counselor assigned to 500 kids. "We have to paint the picture of what's needed, what's possible and how to get there," she said. Shift in thinking When Granholm announced her goal last year of doubling the number of college grads in a decade, she assembled a commission to study how to make it happen. Among its recommendations, released in December, were improving high school curriculums, expanding the role of community colleges and breaking down financial barriers to college. Those measures won't mean a thing if Michigan doesn't change the way residents think about high education, said Ed Sarpolus, who conducted the EPIC/MRA poll. "We have a lot of work to do," he said. "It won't happen tomorrow." The commission that studied improving the college-graduation rate said the state needs to make higher education universal by guaranteeing financial support to students. Last week, Granholm proposed changing the Merit Award from a $2,500 scholarship given to high school students to a $4,000 one given to students who complete two years of college or training. Lt. Gov. John Cherry, who headed the commission, said a high school diploma should no longer be the minimum benchmark in education. Post-secondary schooling is mandatory, not an option, he said. "This issue is at the foundation, if not the fundamental issue in building Michigan's future economy," he said. Ethnic groups lead Michigan may learn lessons in its diversity, experts say. One of the bright notes in the poll was sounded by ethnic groups, who prized education more than whites did. The survey included interviews with African-Americans, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, Arab-Americans and American Indians. Each group was more likely to agree that everyone should get a college education and was more likely to define success in terms of educational attainment and ability to support oneself. For example, while 54 percent of all races agree that everyone should get a college education, 88 percent of the 150 Arab-Americans interviewed believed so. Mahmoud Daoud, 52, originally from Jerusalem, came to the United States in 1974 and doesn't understand why more Americans don't pursue college degrees. The Dearborn poet has three children in college, and they're studying to become a doctor, dentist and dental surgeon. "It's like a kid who comes home from school and he finds his mother sitting down and watching TV," he said. "What will that child be? He will be a carpenter." And while 63 percent of all races think people with a college education are usually better off, 88 percent of Asian-Americans think so. Pardhiva Gogineni, 48, a native of India, is a chemist in Troy who's working on his third master's degree. His wife also has a master's degree. He said his two children, ages 10 and 14, are learning by his example. Both kids are doing well in school. "They watch me going to school and working hard," he said. "They understand education is very important." Sarpolus said ethnic groups prize education more because they see it as a way to improve their lot in life. The rest of the state needs to capture the same type of feeling, state leaders said. When the industrial age dawned a century ago, Michiganians were willing to do whatever it took to succeed in the changing work force, Sarpolus said. Now their descendants need to recapture that spirit. Instead, residents have grown comfortable and complacent, he said. "We're not focusing on our future," he said. You can reach Francis X. Donnelly at (313) 223-4186 or fdonnelly@ detnews.com. (Message edited by livernoisyard on April 11, 2006) | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2503 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
Livernois, I take offense to your statement that Michigan students take ridiculous courses/majors and depend on government assistance afterwards. I happen to major in two "practical" liberal arts majors. I will intern in Washington D.C. this summer, and I have interviewed for THREE out of four interviews so far. 1 acceptance email too. Obviously, DC organizations don't think my academic coursework or extracurriular skills are lacking. Too bad Detroit doesn't have much to offer in what I study (domestic policy). | ||
Rosedaleken Member Username: Rosedaleken Post Number: 160 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.43.122.151 |
Even with practical majors (Mine's Engineering) full time jobs are more plentiful in other markets. It's not just affecting the less technical ones. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 927 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
How do you think this rhetoric plays with all the engineers who've been shitcanned around here lately? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 404 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
As an electrical engineer, I clearly recognize that Michigan is a buyer's market. So, when more jobs dry up, you either literally "go" with the flow--move elsewhere--or do something else if you want to remain. Immigrants from Europe and elsewhere have been there, done that. All other things being equal, businesses choose a region with a competent, educated workforce to draw from. Detroit's not even in the running on that score. | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.176.163 |
There's a bit of chicken'n'egg component to the problem that we can't solve overnight -- we can't attract the big companies here without the properly skilled workers and there's little motivation for our citizens to learn those skills without the jobs being available. The situation has another parallel to reviving Detroit in that it depends on changing public opinion as much as anything. But there's much we can do on the smaller scale. We can encourage home-grown entrepreneurial enterprises who can hire the skilled workers we do have one by one and grow larger over time. That's where TechTown comes in. This is where University of Michigan's spinoff programs for commercializing its research comes in. Of course, new graduates from college think of several factors when looking for places to go after graduation. Only one of them is where they find a job. Another important one for many is lifestyle ("College grads seek jobs, culture in cities") -- the urban experience, nightlife, etc. It's another area in which Southeast Michigan should work together to improve itself, and only downtown Detroit is potentially large enough to compete on this nationally. Ann Arbor's got the college grads, the high skill jobs and growing economy, and the culture, just all on a small scale. In the future, a rail link between the two cities could help both by increasing the number of jobs available to Ann Arbor graduates, the nightlife and culture, and urban lifestyle options without having to necessarily leave Ann Arbor, and provide the same for Detroit residents. It'd give companies more reason to choose a downtown Detroit expansion if they could draw on educated Ann Arborites for skilled labor. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 39 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
I have heard this constant drumbeat for a more educated workforce, much of it coming from corporate America. You have to analyze the reasons behind some of this. There is a concerted effort in this country to replace American workers with either lower-wage immigrants who are brought into the country or by off shoring jobs to other countries. The excuse most often given for this is that there are "not enough highly-educated workers." Well, speaking from the standpoint of someone who makes his living in the software industry, I have worked for, worked with and have had many people reporting to me that were college educated and many not. I must say that I have found little correlation between the quality of work and level of commitment displayed by either group. I worked with plenty of college grads who were inept, and many who were quite good. Same with non-college grads. Clearly in the medical, legal and other highly specialized careers a secondary education is a must. In the business arena, the current curriculum in most colleges is quite inadequate in terms of preparing students for the workplace. College grads still need to be trained. Good work habits, reliability, communications skills and punctuality are just as important in most business related careers and many of these young college grads are lacking in these areas. That is not to knock them, I too was young and a little flaky. The college degree has also become a useful “filter” for screening new applicants. The Big 3 for years have been throwing out resumes and applications that indicate the person lacks a college degree. Many firms began to limit the career path of existing employees who lacked a degree. In terms of the automotive industry, can we really say that the MBA’s that litter the corridors of power in these companies have really done a great job? Hardly. In the technology field, is Microsoft a better company today after embarking on an initiative to replace much of its American work force with foreign labor? No. Do we really need these workers to do jobs related to technology that was invented by Americans, many of whom have no degree? No again. Mr. Gates, who always is talking about the need for an education, is a college dropout who is not qualified to be hired at his own company by his own standard. It is all about lowering wages. The previous poster was right to point out that college graduates are motivated by perceived opportunity in the marketplace. Are you going to invest 4-6 years of your life and 10’s or 100’s thousands of dollars in an education that will not yield a good-paying job? Probably not. As a parent, do I want to fund an education for my child so he or she can go off to a campus that tolerates drinking, irresponsible sex, and indoctrination into the left wing of American politics? Not particularly. I guess if your goal is to go to college and receive a degree to get a “job” then you have the wrong goal. The careers of old are disappearing fast. The American workplace is now a very transient and turbulent place. The duration of you employment at any given company is likely to be short, forcing you to re-train and re-focus constantly at the whim of what corporate America wants next. Salary and benefits are being forced downward constantly, pension plans are disappearing fast. You will have your degree but will be told it is the “wrong degree” or totally irrelevant our out-of-date. My advice to young people is to not play this losing game at all. Do not get a job, then get married, have kids and buy a house. You will be stuck under a pile of bills and obligations and will have no room to maneuver and take risks. Start your own business early on in life, and start acquiring ASSETS. Real estate, intellectual property, patents, stocks, gold, something of lasting value. The well-off that have real security for the future all have assets and equity in something. Once you have your life on the proper path, then go ahead and get married, have kids and buy the house. If you get a degree along the way, so much the better, but I wouldn’t count on it to carry you all of your life. Learning a trade as a backup wouldn't hurt either, plumbers and electricians make good money, and you don't need a degree for those kinds of jobs either. The rest of us, (like me) live paycheck to paycheck and have no nest egg for retirement or anything else. We all sit around and stress out, getting fat and worrying about getting canned. The average baby boomer has on average of only 50k put aside for retirement, which is woefully inadequate, hardly a years worth of money. The Government entitlement programs will be scaled back as they become insolvent, by the time a current college grad retires, who knows? Sorry to get off track here. Ignore this rant if you wish. I beg the youngsters out there, do not make the mistakes of your elders! College is great, but it is not for everyone and is not necessarily the ladder to success. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 411 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Post secondary education does not necessarily mean college. But it does require learning some skills or trades. Apprenticeships are difficult to enter for most due to their being limited by trade, union, AA, or other governmental interference. I heard on the radio tonight (so I cannot vouch for its accuracy) that illegal immigrants are given special consideration by the federal government for apprenticeships somehow, reducing slots for Americans. There are an estimated 2.5 million illegals in the construction industry already. If so, that's probably in line with what the "globalization crowd" is up to. They are able to buy out or install legislators and other politicians in order to create a permanent lower caste in NA and elsewhere. In that respect, political party distinctions mean little. Once that movement (if it exists) attains critical mass, there will be no more middle class. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 12, 2006) | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2508 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.98 |
That is why, Livernoisyard, we must do something NOW or America will not continue to exist any more. We will become an extension of Latin America. Of course, there is Canada... | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1583 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
Who needs to go to college when all of the Chinese and Indians are doing it for us, right? If we would just build a huge fort around the country then we could all build cars, be electricians, or sell real estate, and we will all be happy and wealthy. We'll continue to lead the world because we always had. Those ignorant asians will get those worthless educations and then who will have the last laugh? We'll show them. And it is a good thing that we were able to get into this country before we slam the door on the next group that wants to come work harder than us. And how dare those Latinos call their land Latin America. It is not like America was named after a Latin person or discovered by a Latin person. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 413 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Indonesia and Malaysia are undercutting the Chinese now for outsourcing. The Chinese workers are getting some $6/hr now in heavy industry. And India has beaten the Chinese for the most population. The days of the Chinese are limited... | ||
Sticks Member Username: Sticks Post Number: 74 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 69.136.142.60 |
As a soon to be college graduate, I'll offer in my views on this although they'll probably be dismissed. A couple weeks back I had the chance to attend a job fair at which approximately 30 to 35 firms were set up at. In speaking with the firms that were interesting in hiring someone of my profession, these jobs would have me working in places like Bloomfield Hills, Southfield, Rochester, and A2/Pittsfield Twp. All the while I was thinking "Man, why aren't these jobs in Detroit? I want to live in Downtown Detroit." Sure, I could move to downtown A2 but I lived there for four months last summer and pretty much saw all there was to see. Honestly, when comparing downtown/CBD A2 and Detroit on a $40K salary, where would you rather live? And as for the jobs going from brawn to brain, there's a bit more of a connection. A lot of the tech consulting/data mining firms around here are HEAVILY invested in the auto industry. Of course jobs are going to be slightly depressed: the domestic auto industry has it's fingers in so many jobs around here it's crazy. But they (consultants) keep making money because their clients aren't only in Detroit. And to perfect, yeah it would be nice if I could start aquiring assets and IP and land but you know what? Some people aren't cut out for that just as some people aren't truly cut out for secondary education. We all know how to end up wealthy but how many are able to actually achieve that with their current skills and personality traits? | ||
Everyman Member Username: Everyman Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.136.14.239 |
They should cap the number of people allowed to receive gov't assistance that major in political science, philosophy, critical xxx studies, english, etc. If I forgot your soft science, creatively expressive, or humanities class, I'm sorry, lol. For most of these people, they either compete for a very very limited number of academic slots, get a shitty job paying <$35k/yr., are a perpetual student, or go into a professional program. Also, vocational programs should be stressed. No matter what, you need electricians, mechanics, carpenters, etc. on-site. I mean shit, someone can't wire my house from India or China. For education, beyond that, more emphasis should be focused on practical programs rather than academic/intellectual ones. Being a former polisci/philo major, I feel a little sorry for the people that went in so optimistic and now are stuck being legislative assistants or some other bureaucratic bullshit, or worse, getting another degree just because they have no other real choice. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 298 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Everyman: what school did you go to? I have never heard of critical XXX studies as a university major. A minor maybe....  | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 40 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195 |
I agree 100% Everyman, I know someone who has just gotten a degree in "Women's Studies" from UofM and basically has no career path. I think the academic community should warn students that picking these majors are basically a dead-end career-wise. | ||
Kova Member Username: Kova Post Number: 214 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 141.213.184.173 |
If you go Women's Studies you have to do it with something practical like Pre-med. I know a girl here at UM that is doing this. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 299 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
No question there is a demand for tradespeople. Vancouver -- the host of the 2010 Winter Olympic Games -- has been experiencing cost overruns on its new Olympic facilities because of a dire shortage of labour. People should be encouraged to enter the trades -- many tradespeople make more money than university educated people (I know what my dad makes and I know what I make). However, being a tradesperson or going to school for a "practical program" and having a liberal arts university degree does not need to be mutually exclusive. I know numerous people who went to university for one set of skills knowing that they would go to college to pick up the practical skills. These people seem to be better for both experiences. Liberal arts programs are very important and are designed to promote critical thought. Additionally, many jobs require a university degree of some sort as a baseline qualification. As we should know, in the United States and Canada students are required to attend undergraduate programs before entering into law school, medical school and other professional programs. Faculties of Law do not distinguish between a degree in BioPhysics from a degree in Women's Studies. Regardless what one thinks of Women's Studies, the goal of the program is develop critical thought and promote analytical writing skills. I think there is a big distinction between being over-educated and under-employed, especially since I believe the former is impossible. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"I think the academic community should warn students that picking these majors are basically a dead-end career-wise." Ain't gonna happen! A large segment of profs make their "careers" teaching those BW courses. If not enough students initially sign up for them, many will email-spam their undergrads, trying to lure the minimum number of students for the upcoming semester (so as not to have their specialities dropped from the schedule/catalog). | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 669 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.220.37 |
I don't know, I spent a lot of time studying women at U of M and I have a job. Here's a picture from the article that speaks volumes. If this isn't a wake up call. See that little dot next to Cleveland? That's Detroit, land of idiots.  We're way past worrying about schools. The popluation of the region is essentially a write-off. We need programs to relocate people without skills to other parts of the country that might possibly be able to absorb them, while we desperately try to woo educated immigrants to the region. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2529 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.212.41.58 |
How did Atlanta become a city of college-educated people??? | ||
Sf_mike Member Username: Sf_mike Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 205.132.174.254 |
I would have stayed in the Detroit area if I had found work (MSU '03 Telecommunications) but I waited around for almost two years working $10 - $9/hr jobs and simply could not find a job in the field that would have paid me a living wage with benefits. When an employer in San Francisco offered to pay my relocation costs in addition to paying me a good living wage with benefits I had no choice but to move away from metro Detroit. Many of my friends from MSU and U of M who graduated around the same time as me have had to do the same....taking off for Chicago, New York, Atlanta, etc. I think a good number of us (not all) would have chosen to stay in metro Detroit but what are you gonna do? | ||
Trufan Member Username: Trufan Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 138.28.212.237 |
I am graduating in may, and i haven't found nearly as many options to work in detroit as other cities. Even though i want to come back to Detroit, i might not be able to, because their are no jobs in the field i'm trained in. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 125 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
The job I have in Detroit pays $10k-$15k less than an equivalent job in Chicago. Sweet. | ||
Lt_tom Member Username: Lt_tom Post Number: 76 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 144.147.1.66 |
Michissippi here we come | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 204.13.148.226 |
No entrepreneurs among us? If anything, leave for another city for a few years to gain experience and cash money in order to return and start a business, freelance, consult, whatever, thus breaking the cycle of people leaving due to lack of jobs and a lack of companies due to everybody leaving. |
