  Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 73 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
I have been watching this website for sometime now before I decided to jump in and participate. And, just by the title “DetroitYes” I would say that it would be a fair assumption that the people that are on this site for the most part are interested in the positive development or re-development of the City of Detroit. As I have said a number of times it hurts my heart to see the city of my childhood, Detroit, to be in the terrible decay that we find it in now. I would give anything to see the City of Detroit to be at its zenith when it was the 4th largest city in the country and was the center of the automobile industry. But, wishing it doesn’t make it so! And, Pigs could fly if they had wings but they don’t!! It is my opinion that there are many very intelligent people on this site that have a very good grasp of debating skills as a tool to interact. There are also many people that are very intelligent with objective, sometimes objective, most of the time objective , facts and figures. Things that I would call cash register honesty related to certain things. If you don’t believe that just make some assertions related to quantifiable facts and see how fast many people correct you. For that matter just spell a word wrong and you’ve got all the English Majors correcting your spelling, grammar and punctuation. All of that is fine because we need engineers, accountants, lawyers and English teachers. Again, in my opinion the rebuilding of the city is going to require more than dotting “Is”, crossing “Ts”, bricks, mortar, correct spelling and numbers summed along with delineating exactly what it says in the garbage pick-up agreement the city has with its citizens. Those things are important along the way. But, those are the easy things, anybody can be hired to add numbers-up, spell correctly, build a brick wall or decide what the city fathers intended about garbage pick-up. There’s no good reason to be self-righteous about correcting facts. No problem. Easy stuff! Now, the hard part of rebuilding the city is related to healing the wounds of the past – individually and collectively. All of the non-quantifiable, subjective, emotional, personal, and physical facts, details, information, data, evidence, proof, truths, reality and particulars of the whole story need to be told. Everyone’s truth is valid to them and some can express their truths better than other. But, just because they can’t articulate their truth doesn’t mean it’s not so. A case in point is Detroit48213 in his posting entitled “TRASH WITH A BADGE IN DETROIT” It is obvious that he is one angry young man or woman. But, just because he is angry and may not be in touch with the feelings surrounding his anger doesn’t mean his truth is not valid. The key is to engage him to get to what his truth is. It’s the only way to resolution of the issue whatever it is. We can’t just ignore, lock-up, or pretend that these problems with young men and women do not exist. The issue surrounding slavery is with us to this very day and it has to be dealt with. These young men and women are not going to go away. If you, we, us do not engage them then they will engage us in ways that we don’t want or like or even worse can do anything about. My opinion is political correctness forces people to go underground and you don’t know exactly who and what you are dealing with. If the point of political correctness is to move towards a healing of our culture and society it is an abysmal attempt. The reason I say this is because healing is not a destination it is a process like everything. Part of that process is to allow the anger to get out – you can’t short circuit the process. If you try to illuminate steps along the way then you have nothing but additional confusion. People have to be allowed to speak their truth whether you like it or not. I lived in Houston, Texas at one time and I started a Muti-Racial Support Group of people from all kinds of persuasions to my home on Monday Nights starting at 7:00 P.M. These groups had a slow start but as word got out and people started coming we had to move to a community center because their were so many people wanting to come. First of all I need to state that I am not a mental health, psychological, social worker with any educational credentials. I’m just a person that saw a problem and got tied of all the bitching and moaning with nothing being done. In the beginning these meetings were very tense because I encouraged people to say all the things in this group to members of the group that they had never said to anyone. Believe me there were epithets of “nigger”, “honkey”, “spike”, “dyke”, “kike”, “faggot” and those were some of the nicer things that were said. There were times that people were scared, crying, angry, seething, and every other emotion you can imagine. But, as time went on we got through that shit and everyone agreed that it was a totally freeing to say all of those things to each other that had been pent-up for years and most of time for a lifetime. Without exception those people that choose to stay commented that it was the best thing they had ever done to try to get to know people they only had suspicion for in the beginning. That group plus two other locations is still going and I started that in 1990! Now, I had people try to interview me/us for the local news and I always declined because if I did that then that would be another unwanted distraction for the business of what we were doing. Just remember that resentments don’t go away all by themselves, they have to be dealt with so you can get to the next step hopefully to the healing. So, what I am saying is that political correctness retards the healing progression instead of helping it because it bottles up all of that emotion behind it. And, my common sense tells me that if you don’t deal with this stuff in a way that allows you to get it out in a safe way you end up with Guerrilla Warfare and I don’t want to fight another Vietnam War! Here’s a little story from my history. If it is not obvious – I’ll just say that I am a white male. When I was in the service I had a very close friend named Charles Kelley and he was a high school drop-out and black or as he said at the time -- Negro. He probably taught me more about life than any man I know other than my father. He was from a place called Pineapple, Alabama just east of Slingshit, Mississippi!  In addition to us being in Vietnam he was also a veteran of the Korean War. So, that gives you an idea of how old he was to put it into the social context of him growing up in the south. The stories he told me were so hideous and foreign to me being from Detroit and just 19 years old that I didn’t know what to make of them. He told me that his father was a sharecropper working for a white man that owned the property he was working. Kelley said he remembered his father going to this landowner begging for money because he didn’t have any money to feed his family. He said the man made his father get on his knees to beg for money and then the man laughed at Kelley’s father and threw the money on the ground and walked away. More context! Kelley told me that he trusted white people in the south more than he did the white people in the north because he knew where he stood with the white man in the south but he never knew where he stood with the white man in the north. The point to all this, as I’m sure some of you will say is anecdotal information, is that knowing where you stand with people is one of the steps in trying to heal the rifts that exist between people. Kelley told me one time that he respected George Wallace that was the Governor of Alabama and I said, “How can you as a Negro that grew up in Alabama like George Wallace?” And, he said he knew exactly where he stood with George Wallace because there was no pretence about George’s feelings. He said, “When you know what you’re dealing with you know how to deal with it.” So, here are the steps to emotional healing from a common sense approach: • Admit to a need for healing • Discover the cause of the pain • Purify the wound • Accept healing • Fortify the weakness Easy to say and hard to do but the only way to true healing! We are sick as a people, society, culture and a city and we are need in the kind of healing that we collectively choose but choose, we must! Livedog2  | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 23 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.228 |
Couldn't have said it better. | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.97.102 |
People are negative and positive on an individual basis but until Southeast Michigan realizes its common interest in having the principle city in the region we're all out of luck. | ||
Spaceman_spiff Member Username: Spaceman_spiff Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.56.252.143 |
I believe that political correctness(PC) is useful. Without PC, communication between individuals would be, although arguably more honest, more conflict prone. Not every person is capable of facing a support group with open eyes and ears...unfortunately. These people demand the existence of PC. PC is helpful as it allows for social (societal?) economy. person A of race X wishes to purchase goods from person B of race Y. All this interaction requires is for the two to communicate sufficiently to make the transaction. A shows money, B shows goods, the end. Add in one fact, A thinks people of Y are inferior to people of X. How does communication of this belief (assume erroneous) aid in their interaction? People lack understanding, political corectness is a realist approach to mitigating the negative effects of this deficiency. (waste i.e. physical, emotional, economic conflict) My question is: In attempting to mitigate one harm, does PC sanction the existence of this harm? (re: intolerance) Sorry I couldn't phrase this better, time for class. -spiff (Message edited by spaceman spiff on April 10, 2006) | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 75 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
I don't know what you said Spaceman_spiff so I can't comment right now. But, maybe when you get back from class you can elucidate your position more clearly! Cornfused in Deeroit!  By the way was what you said a Chinese Finger Trap <¤¤¤¤¤¤¤>? :-) I'll be looking ©-© for you, again! Livedog2 | ||
Spaceman_spiff Member Username: Spaceman_spiff Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.56.252.143 |
Livedog2, Alright, let me try this again. PC is aimed at providing people with a way to express themselves that is "acceptable" to all. The phrases used are divorced from connotation or historic references. In PC, society is given a communicative tool. It is a general broad set of language, common to all. It is how you address a stranger. In contrast (I believe) is the language used with those we know. This is not to say those who are "the same", but those we know understand the meaning we attach to our words. If I understand your stance, it is that PC is separating our expression of ideas from our conceptualization of those ideas, it is insufficient to communicate those deeper ideas/problems which we conceptualize in non-PC terms. Then, PC is not useful in your opinion, as it hinders understanding and openness. In my opinion, usefulness is a utilitarian term, where the good achieved through a means outweighs the evil it permits. Then, PC is useful in my opinion, as it allows people a sterile, efficient way to communicate the business of life. Simply put, people speak before they think. Given, a common lexicon of acceptable terms might gloss over important issues of race/gender/class, however, these items need to be glossed over in certain situations. (BTW, It might also be argued (although I don't) that PC serves the admirable purpose of indoctrinating people into "right thinking".) One concern of mine is that by using PC, are we simply relegating these discussions on race/class etc. to the private forum? If so, then our private forum presents an inherently biased sample of society as every person has at least one thing in common...you. Does the exact evil PC attempts to avoid (intolerence) then arise naturally as people fail to carry on a discussion in proper language? BTW, Livedog2, I'm sure that it is much easier to express oneself in local/private terms than PC terms, so I believe that the discussion groups you organized work admirably. I believe however, that PC is a sort of grease in the gears of our society, and as such, it is useful. -spiff | ||
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 66.208.225.165 |
Sure, the idea of people tripping over their tongues because they're absolutely terrified that something they say could possibly, maybe, kinda be misconstrued, taken out of context, then deal with the shit storm of their words. Yeah, PC is great, honest, wholesome, american stuff. I wish we used it more often actually. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 303 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 141.217.84.79 |
"A case in point is Detroit48213 in his posting entitled “TRASH WITH A BADGE IN DETROIT” It is obvious that he is one angry young man or woman. But, just because he is angry and may not be in touch with the feelings surrounding his anger doesn’t mean his truth is not valid. The key is to engage him to get to what his truth is. It’s the only way to resolution of the issue whatever it is." Nobody is trying to deny that racial profiling still exists, it obviously does. But when Detroit48213 comes in here and makes such obvioulsy incorrect comments such as the DPD is 55% white or that white journalism students at Wayne State are part of a conspiracy to provide misinformation to the black community, well don't expect me to think of him as anything but a raving lunatic and a racist. Any truth in his posts was crushed by his frequent defense of statistics that he pulled out of his ass and his frequent racist comments and assumptions. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 178 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
No. What does this thread have to do with Detroit? | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
I hear you Spaceman_spiff but I prefer to keep it real. I don’t care to deal with people that really hate me and wish me ill will under the guise of political correctness. Now, that is not to say that just because somebody is angry towards me that I don’t deal with them because anger is a very legitimate emotion. As long as it does not move from the emoting to the acting stage, I’m cool with it! And, furthermore I don’t want to, and will not be, politically correct just for the sake of political correctness. My assumption in dealing with people is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and offer my respect. But, if that respect is not reciprocated I will deal with them in kind. And, to me, it doesn’t have anything to do with political correctness. I believe in plain talk – I believe in “getting down” with people without pretenses or intellectual snobbery. So, to me, political correctness is one of those “shoulds’ that makes people “should” all over themselves. Although, I respect your right and choice to be politically correct. It just doesn’t work for me. I call it the way I see it (Yes, I said the way I see it!) and deal with it. It's always good to know how others think because I learned something today! Livedog2  | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 260 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 4.229.42.51 |
I prefer old-fashioned respect over political correctness. PC can be useful at times, but I've also seen it used as a way to censor people, or for the uber-PC Ivory Tower intellectual types to lord it over the common folk. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 83 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Amen, Jenniferl! I know a truth when I hear it!!  Livedog2 | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3512 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Yes, political corrected is useful...as one of the many tools we have in dealing with each other. I'd be surprised if any reasonable and educated person thinks otherwise. Maybe, the question should really have been whether or not one thinks political correctness is over-used in these days and times. That is, after all, what everyone seems to want to talk about, and what people will inevitably talk about when asked anything about political correctness. I think that too much of any one thing can kill meaningful debate, whether it be too much political correctness, or too much bluntness. They are two sides of the same coin, in my opinion. I think it's ridiculous to imply that political correctness is any less truthful than being painfully (and often offensively) blunt. You can both lie and be truthful regardless of whether or not you take the side of political correctness or bluntness is serious debate. The two have nothing to do with being truthful or deceptive, rather they are two different ways to express the truth or a lie. A truth teller can hide behind PC and bluntness just as well as deciever can hide behind PC and blutness. (Message edited by lmichigan on April 10, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 31 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.233 |
I think the general concensus is that, basically, there is a time and place for everything. Political correctness is an acceptable form of interaction for day-to-day life, just to get along with folks you don't know on a personal level without offending someone. But if you are in a situation where you are trying to make a "breakthrough" in terms of understanding a person or race (from that person's view), then it is better to be blunt, because we all carry our own sterotypes, which are merely borne of ignorance (i.e. not having much personal experience in a given situation). You cannot dispel sterotypes if people are not willing to admit they have them. I am currently participating in a program entitled the "Multicultural Leadership Program" sponosored by New Detroit. In this program, we are exposed to different cultures, and we are encouraged to discuss our views openly. One of the premises upon which we carry out these discussions is that, despite what is said, no matter how offensive, we will not get personally upset by it. We will simply work on destroying those sterotypes through constructive discussion. While only one session has been held, I found it to be very insightful, and I eagerly look forward to attending the remaining sessions. I encourage everyone to look into the program. It is held annually, over the course of approximately 6 months. You can access the New Detroit website at www.newdetroit.org |
