Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench
Post Number: 20 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 1:12 pm: | |
what's this about? |
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 65 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 1:13 pm: | |
Details? |
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench
Post Number: 21 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 1:17 pm: | |
yes, i see the helecopter, but nothing one the news yet i saw people earlier on michigan ave. with american and irish flags. |
Pam Member Username: Pam
Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.107.47.65
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 1:18 pm: | |
Immigration laws protest: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/U PDATE/603270403 |
Blessyouboys Member Username: Blessyouboys
Post Number: 337 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 69.208.113.253
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 1:19 pm: | |
The Detroit-Livonia engagement has gone too long... They're marching for peace in the southeast. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 2994 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.79.88.108
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 1:20 pm: | |
Thousands March Downtown In Immigration Protest http://www.clickondetroit.com/ news/8291573/detail.html |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 569 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 1:38 pm: | |
How the hell did I miss this one? Go citizens! |
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 948 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 2:03 pm: | |
go back to canada! :D |
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 68 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 2:47 pm: | |
God forbid we make illegal immigration a crime. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1295 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 3:38 pm: | |
Good for them. This is an especially pertinent protest in a border city with a large immigrant population. We cannot let America become a big gated community, and liberal immigration policy is a must for our economy. |
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 289 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 141.217.84.86
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 4:00 pm: | |
Immigration is a good thing, ILLEGAL immigration is not. With open unregulated borders, you will get the bad along with the good. Do you think criminals and smugglers do not take advantage of our open border with Mexico? We need a system where hardworking and honest Hispanics can enter to fill a specific job position, but will keep out the MS13 gang members, drug smugglers, human traffickers, and paramilitary forces working for the drug cartels. The same routes that bring in honest Mexicans looking for work also brings in drugs, guns, and possibly even terrorists. This is not acceptable. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to know some basic information about who comes into your country, information like what that person's name is, do they have a criminal record, and are they carrying any infectious diseases. These illegal immigrants could be living in your neighborhood and the government doesn't even know who they are or even what their name is. That's not acceptable, not in an age when people are trying to sneek into this country with the purpose of carrying out terrorist attacks. |
Brandon48202 Member Username: Brandon48202
Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.144.82.169
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 4:53 pm: | |
I'm pretty sure there were way more than 5000 people protesting- as reported by channel 4, here was the view from my office. (Message edited by brandon48202 on March 27, 2006) |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 17 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:06 pm: | |
Can one of you progressives explain why someone wishing to stay in the US is carrying the flag of Mexico and yelling Mexican slogans? If Mexico is what they love, then why do they not go back there? I am not trying to be a smart ass here.... |
Morena Member Username: Morena
Post Number: 398 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:06 pm: | |
Brandon: How can I get an office inside Nemo's? |
Islandman Member Username: Islandman
Post Number: 114 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.42.171.59
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:45 pm: | |
Perfectgentleman, First, there are plenty of parades with people showing pride in where they originated from. Granted, this was political in nature, but it would not have made sense to carry an American flag when trying to identify themselves as immigrants. Is it not OK to be proud to be Mexican (or any other nationality), but still be a productive member of American society? Go to NYC to see this in living color. Second, the language is called Spanish, not Mexican, not Puerto Rican. Do you speak American?? While there are different dialects of Spanish, it's all considered Spanish. |
Erichp77 Member Username: Erichp77
Post Number: 169 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.228.58.126
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:53 pm: | |
Perfectgentleman, The Flag is representing a part of Detroit's diverse culture. You'll find Polish flags flying in Hamtramck and Sterling Heights. And on St. Patrick's day, the Irish will hold an Irish flag in one hand, and a Guinness in the other. You know, this whole thing reminds me of a political cartoon from way back when that should be reprinted. It's a senator standing in front of a podium shouting, "We should rid the US of all illegal immigrants!". Next to him stands a Native American with his arms folded muttering, "I'll help you pack." |
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1506 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:54 pm: | |
Everything I've read about these demonstrations all over the country say that people are carrying both flags of where they are from and the stars and stripes. It just depends on which snapshot happens to fall into the picture. (Or maybe what the photography would like to portray.) |
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 435 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:56 pm: | |
Many of the people demonstrating today are descended from the original inhabitants of the americas. They have, actually, more right to be here in America (if you want to argue it, Perfectgentleman) than I do whose ancestors are johnny-come-lately to America. And, truth be told, my Irish-Canadian grandmother was an illegal immigrant. She just took the ferry across the Detroit River somewhere around 1900 and settled down. She referred to herself as a nickel-immigrant (the price of the ferry ride) and was all her life afraid to travel back into Ontario because she might not be let back in to Detroit. I don't think her conscience bothered her though about "breaking the law." She was a productive member of Detroit society and she raised many more productive citizens. |
J_stone Member Username: J_stone
Post Number: 285 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.215.68.210
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:59 pm: | |
I saw both flags. It was huge. |
Jjw Member Username: Jjw
Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:00 pm: | |
I see perfectgentleman's statement about Mexican slogans being valid. We do have American slogans that would be referred to as such just as there would be English slogans in England or Irish slogans in Ireland. It does seem a bit ridiculous to carry a Mexican flag when one is trying to validate the point of moving to another country for citizenship. Personally I would be carrying an American flag if I wanted to live here or a Mexican flag if I wanted to live in Mexico. |
Islandman Member Username: Islandman
Post Number: 115 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.42.171.59
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:06 pm: | |
Jjw, You may be right, but I don't think that he was referring to Mexican slogans, but slogans yelled in Spanish. I'm Hispanic myself and would be hard pressed to recognize a Mexican slogan. I doubt most Americans would be able to, but only perfectgentleman could answer that. |
Islandman Member Username: Islandman
Post Number: 116 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.42.171.59
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:10 pm: | |
Also, what happened to free speech?!? I'd rather see a Mexican flag being waved around than other ones (and you know which ones I mean) that are covered by this right. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1296 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:17 pm: | |
What's wrong with displaying a foreign flag in America?!? As long as it isn't an enemy's... I wonder if the third poster in this thread meant Mexican flags instead of Irish. Haha, but, the rally did seem to pass through Corktown, and I should hope most people of Irish heritage still see the benefits of liberal immigration laws. This is not a question of whether or not illegal immigration is right. This is a perfectly suitable protest because as we speak new immigration laws are being hashed out in congress. It looks like reform is on the horizon. Unfortunately it looks like right-wingers who have lost their way and left-wingers who don't understand the economy will team up to make our policies more restrictionist. The issues are: what to do with foreigners already here without documentation? Amnesty or not? This is an interesting debate. But then there is the issue of where we should cap immigration, how difficult it should be to get in, and whether or not there should be a wall along our border (how outrageous!), and the outcry around the country is an attempt to effect pending legislation on these matters (it is not to say that illegal immigration is okay, or that Mexico is better than the USA or some shit, like some immature posters have just suggested they are doing.) What's wrong with keeping ethnic ties while doing something perfectly rational: making more money in the world's best economy right next door. Can you blame them? |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:18 pm: | |
I know that there is no "Mexican Language," I was referring to the slogans being relevant in content to Mexican nationals, as opposed to Spanish people. So I guess the conclusion is that because we are all descendants of immigrants than we should have open borders and not restrict anyone from coming in at all. There are currently 40 million additional Mexican people who wish to come here, so according to that logic we should allow them all to come on in! This is no longer a vast, undiscovered frontier. We have only a certain number of jobs, resources, public services and infrastructure. We are an established nation that has every right to regulate who should come into this country. The Oath of Citizenship requires that you forswear all loyalty to your country of origin. I quote: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature." I tend to think that someone who carries a Mexican flag within the context of a pro-immigration rally would tend not to adhere to that oath, in fact the very act of coming here illegally is proof of that. There is a legal process for coming to the US and it should be followed. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1297 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:22 pm: | |
Are you insinuating that because these folks were in that rally they came here illegally? |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 19 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:39 pm: | |
It is clear from all reports around the nation that a significant percentage of these people are here illegally. As over 80% of the US population wants to restrict illegal immigration regardless of political party, it would seem logical that there would not be enough citizens to create the size of crowds we are seeing. There has been many valid comparisons made between what we are seeing today and the protests that go on in Mexico all of the time. That is hardly a coincidence. Hell, the anti-war crowd had far more approval for their position in the national polls but could not muster a fraction of the numbers we are seeing here. Whether they are citizens or not is a secondary point in any case. They are protesting against any enforcement of our immigration laws, and most want to allow unrestricted access into this country. The measures being debated in Congress are mild and most provide some sort of amnesty in one way or another, something the American people are totally against. Ironically, the protestors are hurting their own cause as the numbers and nature of the protests only will bring more attention to the magnitude of the problem and will energize the opposition to allowing more immigration. |
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 534 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.74.205
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:42 pm: | |
Perfectgentleman keeps throwing this 80% number out there. Could you provide some reference? Thanks. |
Kova Member Username: Kova
Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 141.213.184.173
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:48 pm: | |
question for both sides: What is the current process of becoming a citizen? What is the exact issue over papers and documents for coming into the country? Please explain. Thanks |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 353 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:55 pm: | |
Some recent poll results: Decide for yourselves. |
Vas Member Username: Vas
Post Number: 509 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 63.240.201.51
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 6:56 pm: | |
yeah they should be holding U.S. flags and that is part of the problem |
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston
Post Number: 65 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.42.164.121
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 7:15 pm: | |
One of the great things about America is that you have the right to hold any flag you want. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1298 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 7:26 pm: | |
Yeah. Should we ban St. Patrick's Day and Cinco da Mayo celebration?...you know they involve flags, and people celebrating the way they used to in the old country. Perfectgentleman, I think a significant part of that assumed 80 percent are people that do not think things through. Perhaps 10-20% are nativists, another 10-20% are backcountry or suburban people who don't experience diversity or the roles in the economy that immigrant labor provides. Many of these people are ignoramuses, no matter who they voted for in the last election. There are probably a few tax economists or people who have studied welfare and the remittances immigrant labor sends back out of this country that might be able to make a cohesive case for limiting immigration, but there are probably just as many from the same crowd who would do the opposite. The conclusion made by my rather renowned economics professor in the most recent international economics course I took was that labor needs to be much more free-flowing than it currently is. See the EU for an example. The laws should be simple and straightfoward, such that they don't encourage a market for illegal passage or smuggling of humans, he said, and for all current undocumented immigrants w/o criminal records, a guest worker permit ought to be granted. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3001 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.238.43.113
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 8:01 pm: | |
Here's the website for the Department of Homeland Security, INS Division. http://uscis.gov/graphics/inde x.htm Not quite as easy to manuever the maze at it appears, I've had to deal with it recently, as have my sisters. We average 4 years straightening things out, in the meantime we're in limbo. If this legislation passes, we might face felony charges the next time our ID is stolen and our files are lost again. |
Rjk Member Username: Rjk
Post Number: 266 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 8:23 pm: | |
Carrying a Mexican flag is simply a bad PR move considering the issue at hand. There's a big difference between someone carry a flag in a St. Patricks day parade and someone carrying a Mexican flag when the issue is people who are here illegally. These protesters need to win over the American public and holding a flag of another country is a very strong visual image that will not sit well with a lot of Americans. Logically they should have been holding American flags and not paying homage to another country. I just heard on the news that even organizers of a protest march on the east coast (I believe it was D.C.) had advised people not to bring Mexican flags or flags of other countries to the rally. (Message edited by rjk on March 27, 2006) (Message edited by rjk on March 27, 2006) |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3003 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.236.162.128
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 8:45 pm: | |
How many Americans have you met that are not proud of their ethnicity? How many clubs are there in the Metro Area that are ethnically described? Hell, the Italians, Germans and Poles, as well as many others hang on to their place of origin as a badge of honor whether or not they have ever been to the Motherland or Fatherland in their lives. I support them in keeping their ethnic or racial identity, maybe it will cause people to realize, a lot of people share this planet. |
321brian Member Username: 321brian
Post Number: 89 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.6.147
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:51 pm: | |
Jams, I am proud of my ethnicity. I'm American. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3005 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.234.78.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:58 pm: | |
That's your nationality. |
Gildas Member Username: Gildas
Post Number: 501 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.216.136.224
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:11 pm: | |
I'm proud to be American and a member if the human race. Ethnicity is not the "end game." There are plenty of ethnic whatevers here in the US who came here leagally. I find the whole basis of the discussion and protest strange. Should be have laws making ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS punishable as a felony? We are speaking of illegal aliens here "undocumented workers" in PC speak. I cannot see the problem and wonder why laws are not in place already. I myself welcome anyone who wants to come to the US through the legal channels, deport the rest. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 20 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
I agree that waving the flag of Ireland at a St. Patricks Day Parade is not comparable to what we have here. These people are waving a foreign flag in the context of supporting unlimited immigration from that country. It makes one wonder if they really want to come here to assimilate into American culture as previous generations of immigrants have done or set up another version of Mexico here. It is known fact that in many areas of the country, English is no longer the primary language. This seems to go against the concept of the “Great Melting Pot.” I guess the question is this: Do those of you who are arguing the opposing point of view feel we should have any limit on immigration to this country at all? There are probably 100’s of millions of poor, oppressed people all over the world that would love to come here and be glad to work for pennies on the dollar of what Americans do. Should the all be allowed in? This is not a ridiculous argument; we have 12 million and counting. Are borders even necessary? Does an American citizen who has lived in the US, paid his taxes and obeyed our laws deserve any deference at all as opposed to someone who comes here illegally? |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3006 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.234.78.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:31 pm: | |
Doen't hire one to cut your lawn, or clean your pool. Felony charges may await you. |
Rjk Member Username: Rjk
Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:35 pm: | |
"I find the whole basis of the discussion and protest strange. Should be have laws making ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS punishable as a felony? We are speaking of illegal aliens here "undocumented workers" in PC speak." To a lot of people being anti-illegal immigrant is equivalent to being anti-immigrant. Many of them see no difference between the two and just like to toss the word bigot around. If we're going to have a law we should enforce it. If not we should do away with it as a law and let people come and go as they want. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3007 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.234.78.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:49 pm: | |
For Gawd's sake, take a look at what is being proposed, You as as US citizen might lose your rights as a citizen when you hire a kid to cut your lawn without checking his ID and it turns out he is an illegal. Chances are slim, but do you really want to take the chance if these "reforms" are instituted? But what do I know, I'm just an immigrant! |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 21 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:51 pm: | |
I think we all know that people will not be jailed for hiring a kid to cut his lawn. Hell, the INS can't even keep track of the LEGAL aliens in this country much less the kids cutting lawns. They would, if anything, crack down on large employers to try and discourage people from coming in to work at those companies. The felony aspect of it has already been dropped in committe by the way... |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 358 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:58 pm: | |
I heard on the radio yesterday that a total of three employers got into any problems with the INS during 2005. Obviously, if that's accurate, the INS cannot be too much of a hassle. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3008 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.234.78.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:13 pm: | |
Oh, so it's ok if Citizens break laws, because of bureacratic slips or oversights due to lack of funding. I guess it's alright for me to break laws unless I get caught according to that way of thought. What should be the punishment for American citizens who knowingly employ illegals? or are they not resposible for their actions since they are "citizens"? |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 22 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:14 pm: | |
Companies that knowingly hire illegals should be prosecuted, period. |
321brian Member Username: 321brian
Post Number: 90 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.6.147
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:15 pm: | |
Jams, I was born here. My parents where born here. Their parents were born here. Thats what my passport says. Thats what my birth certificate says. What other nationality would I be? People getting behind their ancestory and making it an excuse for they way they are being treated is just another way the country is dividing itself. Again, A long time ago I had relatives in Germany but I don't now. If everyone loved their home country so much they would be there. Maybe even trying to improve it. Now in many cases they are bringing it here. Third world standards and all. Love it or leave, and speak freakin' English. Or American as some of you think. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3009 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.234.78.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:26 pm: | |
Nationality is not the same as ethnicity. My relatives in Rumania by nationality are Rumanian, ethnically they are Hungarian. Ethnically, I am 1/2 Scots and 1/2 Hungarian, Nationalisticaly (if that is a real word) I'm a Canadian, with Permanent Residency status in the US. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3011 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.234.78.9
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:46 pm: | |
quote:Companies that knowingly hire illegals should be prosecuted, period
Felony or Misdeamenor? |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2408 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.14
| Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:48 pm: | |
My America is big enough and confident enough to let any damn one wave [or burn] any damn flag they want including ours. This country won't fall down, kneel down, come apart, decay or change one iota if they do. Relax folks, it's all just rag or plastic, probably made in China anyway, and will soon join the rest of the waste stream. If you want to get bent out of shape, get bent out shape when they start shooting at you for waving or burning them. |
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger
Post Number: 49 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.14
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:03 am: | |
quote: Companies that knowingly hire illegals should be prosecuted, period _________________________ So I guess we should all stop eating grapes, strawberries, lettuce..and all produce touched by the hands of illegals. Or perhaps those of us eating the produce should be prosecuted too. Just what we need a bigger police state. |
321brian Member Username: 321brian
Post Number: 91 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.6.147
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:09 am: | |
Jams, Pick one. My point is how far back in our ancestery should we go back? Where did our great, great, great relatives come from? Like Germany, Hungary, and Poland have always been Germany, Hungary and Poland and people there have always been there. Everyone came from somewhere else. It's about where you are now and where you were born! |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3013 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.79.90.140
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:30 am: | |
Will not disagee, just understand ethnicity and nationality are separate things. |
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger
Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.14
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:41 am: | |
The march in Detroit just made it onto NIGHT LINE Monday 27, 2006 @ 11:40 p.m. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1299 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:59 am: | |
Perfectgentlemen, movement of labor should be much more unfettered than it currently is. Just like there is a market for cars or cookies, there is a market for labor. And generally it is broken up between unskilled, skilled, and professional. The market will decide when there is truly a critical mass of immigrant labor, and then the situation will resolve itself. Jams, great post at 7:45. I sense there are a lot of people in this forum who's American pride only really shows through when they're on the defensive. "Those darn foreigners are gonna take our jobs," or "quit buyin' those Japanese cars their gonna kill us. American all the way." Also, forgetting one's ethnicity is like trying to erase history. Furthermore, there is a human aspect that cannot be doubted. Don't tell me that we shouldn't let a Mexican man come here and honestly earn a living so that his family can be supported, even through a remittance back to Mexico. Even if his work is not glorious and lacking in dignity, since this is America the wage he earns will support his family in Mexico immeasurably better than if he was in the Mexican labor market. The international labor market is truly one of the great humanitarian aspects of capitalism to be honest with you. Getting in its way creates an underground market for illegal immigration, and, often, very inhumane acts like human smuggling. There's no compassion in denying someone a chance to work to support a family. Certain things should actually come higher than national identity. Family is one of them. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 23 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:07 am: | |
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." Theodore Roosevelt 1907 Sounds good to me! |
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 257 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.212.208.197
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:12 am: | |
We could certainly use more immigrants here in the D - documented or not. Say, 400,000 or 500,000. Let's welcome them with open arms to the city that Americans abandoned and continue to abandon. Invite them to come and stay and to bring their friends and families. In no time at all, the city would be a better place. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1300 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:34 am: | |
Whether you're exaggerating or not, your point is true. We don't need to be like old Australia and take in outlaws, but we should market ourselves to immigrants. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1835 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.95
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:36 am: | |
"How you see something depends very much on where you are sitting" -Nigel Parsons. Al-Jazeera If family history is correct I had one ancestor on the Mayflower. He came here without papers or passport. He was one of Americas' first illegals. So excuse my sympathy for these folks. If thousands of people are willing to risk death to walk across the arizona desert, maybe we should change the laws to let more people in. After all, less people are violatiing the speeding laws since they raised freeway speed limits to 70. But some of you are aghast that some people come here illegally. Who exactly did you think is picking your vegetables and cutting up your meat at the slaughterhouse? Whose hands do you think did the work so that you could have a 99 cent burger or some chicken mc nuggets? As i posted on another thread, If you don't like illegals being here, don't buy products that involve their labor. a boycott of such products would be the cheapest and most effective way to end illegal immigration. Putting up more fencing certainly has not done it. And despite bellowing monolingualists who bark "speak freaking english!" I'll say that since we still have freedom of speech in this country, speak whatever pinche idioma you like. |
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger
Post Number: 54 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.14
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:49 am: | |
Barnesfoto I agree: all those in favor of persecuting the immigants should just boycott all the products they labored on. I wonder if there is a list of all the products we eat that have been processed by undocumented workers. Seems to me we better start treating these folks a little better or else...who knows what might happen to our food. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1301 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:48 am: | |
Nice posts guys. |
Steelworker Member Username: Steelworker
Post Number: 619 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.252.127.37
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:10 am: | |
JAMS i wish i had the opposite of you american with permenant residence status in canada |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 11:29 am: | |
What a fantastic concept! Let's invite 1/2 million uneducated, illiterate people to Detroit, who don't speak English. Because we know that will make us more successful than we already are! There is so much opportunity for them here it will surely improve the city. Hell, with that labor supply GM and Delphi could lower their wages even more! This must be what Granholm has in mind for the “Cool Cities” initiative. Let’s import all of the poor from the 3rd world, we will have one of the “coolest” cities ever, mainly because nobody will be able to afford heat! I also think you are right that if we enforce our immigration laws, none of us will ever have meat or vegetables again. It is a miracle that we ever had food in this country prior to illegal aliens coming here. In a way though, maybe we should get rid of the meat processing and produce industries anyway, because eating meat causes cruelty to animals and plants have feelings too. It is so heartening that our representatives in Government seem to agree with you, that representing the will of the people they were elected to represent means nothing to them. Hell, as long as our nations laws are “optional,” and all you need to do is disobey them often enough in large numbers and be rewarded, maybe we could all claim 99 dependents on our W-4’s and stop paying taxes! |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3020 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.74.120
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:18 pm: | |
quote:Like Germany, Hungary, and Poland have always been Germany, Hungary and Poland and people there have always been there.
This is the sad state of American education, all of these countries as well as others in Europe have had various borders. Germany didn't exist until 1870/71. That is why I'm insistant there is a difference between ethnicity and nationality. |
1953 Member Username: 1953
Post Number: 743 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 209.104.146.146
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:36 pm: | |
Boo illegal immigrants! Boo protests! |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 3022 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.74.120
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:45 pm: | |
1953, Thank you for your insightful and well thought out post. I assume you are an Objibwa. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:18 pm: | |
Here is some nice pics... |
Islandman Member Username: Islandman
Post Number: 117 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.42.171.59
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:41 pm: | |
Wow, there are U.S. flags in every pic above. Looks like the photographers were going for more controversial pics, as were you for posting these. You also said above that it would be a disaster to let all these illiterates come to Detroit. Do you happen to know the rate of illiteracy in Detroit NOW?? It's not that great, considering the fact that people in Detroit have been exposed to English their whole lives. |
Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 2267 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:42 pm: | |
are those photos of the Detroit protest? |
Islandman Member Username: Islandman
Post Number: 118 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.42.171.59
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:45 pm: | |
Probably taken in California. |
Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 2268 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:47 pm: | |
Hmmm ... not very gentlemanly to imply they were representative of the recent Detroit protest now is it? |
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 2579 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:50 pm: | |
Lets see... If this law passes can you say even MORE racial profiling becuase someone may look like they are illegal? Just like the Black man in the nice neighborhood, in the Mercedes...He must have been a drug dealer right? |
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy
Post Number: 2447 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.37.222
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:00 pm: | |
Local and national news showed video that included people flying the Mexican flag ABOVE the US flag, people holding only Mexican flags, and people flying the American flag upside down. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having and displaying pride in one's heritage, however, none of the above examples are good signs when trying to demonstrate that you want to be in/support THIS country. And yes, what this country stands for, etc. etc. is "strong enough to withstand this type of thing", etc. etc. but again it's not a good sign. Furthermore, yes there are Irish, Polish, etc clubs that proudly display the flags of those countries, however, when have you ever seen them only fly those flags (w/o a US flag), fly those flags ABOVE the US flag, or fly the US flag upside down? Not to mention that those are two entirely different types of situations. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1302 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:32 pm: | |
Metrodetguy, defiling the flag is also a feature of SOME anti-war protests. But it doesn't cause the sort of outcry on this forum that this most recent protest has caused. here's a "peace-activist" displaying an upside down flag: http://static.flickr.com/30/48 133353_8bf7431c58_m.jpg And this flag-burning took place in Oakland, CA by some of our fellow Americans: http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2 003/04/1595620.php here's a photo of a flag being "corporatized" to make a point: http://miami.indymedia.org/upl oads/2005/03/anti-war-protest- 050003a.jpg So yes, if there's one thing I didn't like about these recent protests, it's those who did mistreat the US flag out of their anger. But I dislike a lot of the responses in general on this forum, with a few people saying the premise of their cause itself makes them unAmerican. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 26 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:33 pm: | |
I never said they were from Detroit, and that is not the point as this was a nationwide protest. I am merely trying to demonstrate that there is a radical element present in this debate that some people tend to discount. There is a clear mentality here that somehow these people are "entitled" to all of the rights and privileges provided by our constitution, even though the first act of these people is to break our laws by entering this country illegally. The real underlying issue here is that Mexico is a failed state who is exporting all of its problems to the US. Real courage is not running across the border and abandoning your country and its people but staying in Mexico and working for change. There will never be reform and a better way of life for the millions who are in poverty in Mexico if we continue to be the buffer between the Mexican population and its failed leadership. We cannot possibly absorb these people at the rate they are coming into this nation. I suppose it would be the equivalent of us shipping all of the unemployed auto workers in Michigan to another country, maybe Canada, so they could get public health care and whatever jobs “the Canadians don’t want to do.” Many of you on this board rail against the people who give up on Detroit and abandon the city, yet you seem to support those who would abandon their country! The liberals are always first to support “workers rights”, social welfare programs, and regulations on business to support workers, yet you want to reward employers who circumvent these principals completely, hiring workers at sub-standard wages with no benefits. This of course just over-burdens services in the public sector, with people consuming services yet paying little or no taxes into the system to support it. Allowing unfettered immigration into the US will not solve the problems of these people in the long run. |
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 436 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:57 pm: | |
I guess that the Jews should have stayed in Germany and worked for change. The Poles who fled poverty should have stayed home and worked for change. PerfectGentleman: the border with Mexico is political construct. The photos you posted were so instructive: the Mexicans are the indiginous people here. The southern border was stolen from the Mexicans. I bet that's all right in your book too. They should have stood up to the expansionists better. The illegals broke a stupid law. People stand up to evil and greed all the time - they break the law and the world is a better place because they protest injustice. I don't want to reward the employers who pay sub-standard wages, etc. But the Mexicans know that they are sacrificing for their children. And, in one generation, their children are professionals who are taking care of their parents. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1836 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.149.20
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 6:36 pm: | |
Quote: "What a fantastic concept! Let's invite 1/2 million uneducated, illiterate people to Detroit, who don't speak English. Because we know that will make us more successful than we already are! There is so much opportunity for them here it will surely improve the city." I guess that you have not been thru SW Detroit in the last 15 years. I can't tell you the education level or the legal status of each immigrant, but we have had an increase in small businesses, many of them owned by immigrants. Once vacant stores are now lit up and filled with people. Once vacant homes are fixed up and occupied. Property values have soared. One of my favorite guys is Sr. Lopez who owns a taco stand in what was once a vacant building. He is also an electrical contractor, as he has a degree in electrical engineering and his crew did a great job rewiring my house. This guy has two businesses, employs probably twenty people, has a sign that says "God Bless America" on his wall, and pays taxes. Do you have any examples to argue your case, or just more hollow conservocrite parroting? Your photos, incidently, are of the LA Protest,(The Roxie Theater gives it away) and CA WAS stolen from Mexico. i figured some of you would blather about the flag, so i'll post some pics of folks with American flags at the detroit protest later on. Finally, if you are concerned about Mexico being a failed state, why not make a contribution to the Lopez-Obrador Campaign, because if Madrazo wins this fall, the fishy smell is going to get a lot worse. Lots of people have died trying to improve the political situation in Mexico, but some folks just want to feed their kids. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1838 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.138
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:18 pm: | |
|
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1839 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.138
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:20 pm: | |
look! the guy in the stroller (lower right) is flying the flag upside down and it's below the Mexican flag! |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1840 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.138
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:32 pm: | |
|
Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 2270 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.163.181.81
| Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 9:48 pm: | |
Perfectg, since you neglected to mention the photo wasn't from the Detroit march perhaps you have neglected to mention that the photo is not representative of the typical protesters at whatever place these photos were taken. For that matter am I even correct to assume that these were from a different recent protest somewhere else on the same topic or was it perhaps from an unrelated protest entirely (like maybe an anti-columbus day protest). In a similar vein "Here is some nice pics":
|
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1568 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 68.255.240.236
| Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:17 am: | |
They protested, but if most of the people protesting were illegal immigrants, what politician is really worried about this? None of these people can vote. |