  Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 839 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Here is a question for forumers, How do you feel about Dick DeVos and what would his being elected do for Detroit? http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060322/NEW S11/60322005 | ||
Doctors Member Username: Doctors Post Number: 695 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.42.124.248 |
More like, do to Detroit. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2393 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.120 |
Look for De Vos to bash the City of Detroit, side with water takeover and otherwise throw red meat to the suburbs to get that swing vote. That is the Republican formula. Look for the Dems to throw marshmellows in protest while going after the same votes. The only way Detroit will ever create any interest to either side is if miraculously were to have something like an 85% plus turnout. Instead, its leaders have generally chosen to pout over the neglect by both sides, sit on their hands and turnout sits in the low thirties. This has been the formula since Blanchard dumped Detroit in pursuit of Macomb votes, CAY sat on his hands, and Engler slithered in. It continues today and, regrettably for all of us, dooms the City of Detroit to political irrelevance in state politics. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 126 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
I think he may try to bail out Detroit by getting every able citizen to join "the network", and buy all of their household products from same --"you buy Coke products don't you, You can get them from the network".Then, the more people you bring into "the network", the more Detroit will make! No, it's not AMWAY, it's "the network". | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3836 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.205 |
Granholm and De Vos. election results for November: GRANHOLM 66% DE VOS 29% Undecided 4% | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3303 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.222.10.3 |
Being a Republican in the Detroit area, I am terrified. He is no friend of SE Michigan. Heh, he has no love for Detroit. Probably not much more for the auto industry either. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3840 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.205 |
Yep Grandolm! would squash DeVos in no time. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 422 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
This is going to be one long, expensive, and brutal campaign. Grab a chair and hold on people, this state is going to tear itself apart. I really don't think DeVos is going to find much love from the Oakland/East coast Republicans but will own everything west of Ingham and north of the tri-cities. The regional divide in Michigan will be made appallingly apparent and I suspect that all of us will be raped by the national media. (Message edited by rBerlin on March 22, 2006) | ||
Iseries840 Member Username: Iseries840 Post Number: 166 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 12.31.43.25 |
Is Dick DeVos the son of one of the Amway founders? | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 423 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
What is this Amway of which you speak? You must mean Alticor, which is a reputable company which produces rainbows and cute puppies, and employs billions of Michigan workers. | ||
Iseries840 Member Username: Iseries840 Post Number: 167 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 12.31.43.25 |
I mean Amway. You know that company that tricks people to go to stupid meetings and then tries to force them to buy dumb audio tapes. | ||
Awfavre Member Username: Awfavre Post Number: 33 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 69.3.206.177 |
Rberlin, if you Google Amway, you'll come up with all kinds of interesting sites, including the company’s official site http://www.amway.com/en/BusOpp /business-profile-10065.aspx, & a couple of more, ahem, “critical” sites: http://skepdic.com/amway.html and http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amw ay/. I recall from my childhood some of my redneck family members (we’re all rednecks) belonged to Amway, & frankly, the Amway products weren’t that good. My mom refused to buy any more after trying some of them once. To this day, Amway’s a huge joke amongst friends & family members. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 425 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
Yes, sorry, Dick DeVos is the son of one of the founders of Amway. Rick DeVos or Jay Van Andel, I forget which. Alticor is the parent company of Amway, which operates international sales and their Grand Rapids hotels, and Quixar which is their online sales channel and successor to Amway's North American operations. The Amway name became kinda associated with being evil and all, so they had to stop using it. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 426 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
Thanks for the links. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 335 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Yet another political poll: Poll: Michigan voters unhappy with state's direction, incumbents March 22, 2006 By DAWSON BELL FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER Michigan voters appear to be in a foul mood early in this election year, unhappy with incumbent elected officials and overwhelmingly unhappy with the direction of the state, according to a poll released Wednesday. The poll of 600 registered voters by MRG of Lansing found Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm with only a narrow, 43%-41%, lead over Republican challenger Dick DeVos, and Republicans Attorney General Mike Cox and Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land both under 50%. The most surprising number in the poll, which has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.1 percentage points, however, may be its measure of optimism and pessimissm among voters. Three out of four said Michigan is headed in the wrong direction, MRG pollster Paul King said, the lowest number he's seen in years. King and Bill Ballenger, editor of the newsletter Inside Michigan Politics which sponsored the poll, said they believe Grand Rapids businessman DeVos has been buoyed by a statewide television advertising campaign, now in its fifth week on the air. Almost every earlier poll taken in the race has shown Granholm with a 10-percentage point lead, or greater. The MRG poll showed Cox leading Scott Bowen, a former district court judge from Grand Rapids who is a likely Democratic nominee for attorney general, 33%-25%. Land led in a matchup with state Rep. Mary Waters, D-Detroit, a possible Democratic nominee for secretary of state, 44%-27%. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1282 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Excuse me, but what has Granholm done for the city, let alone the entire state? I don't really want to vote for either, but Granholm has an impressive record of not delivering, whether it be energizing the economy to get it up to pace with the rest of the nation, or on giving voters what they want, as seen when she forced a citizen's override on PARTIAL birth abortion. I don't see Devos helping or hurting Detroit at this point. But he'll get my vote for social issues and because perhaps he'll have ideas for getting MI's economy up to speed, which hopefully will help Detroit. Even on traditional liberal-championed causes like environmental protection and reining in surburban sprawl, the gains under the Granholm administration have been slim to none. Very little structural change has been instituted. The Michigan Land Use Institute will tell you about this. Suburban sprawl has only slowed because the economy is just that poor. One has to question Granny's level of commitment to this state. The democrats will soon find that she pissed has pissed away her chances of a succesful political career, and the state is really no better off anyway. | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.134.168.185 |
Once Granholm leaves office, like Engler, she will get out of Michigan as fast as she can. DeVos at least looks like he may stick around. This State can't afford to be continually run by lightweights. | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 62 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 63.77.247.130 |
I do not think you can lay the all blame for the misforture that the State of Michiganhas been going thru at the feet of the Gov. Granholm. Our state Legislature has not quite performed up to par either. They seem to spend a lot of time fighting over trival matters. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 435 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
Granholm, while providing a formidable silhouette, really has done 0 good for the state...out she goes! | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1490 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.250.205.35 |
Actually, I think you mean AA. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195 |
I don't think there will be a landslide for Granholm, it appears the polls have tightened considerably and it looks to be a close race. I also don't believe that Devos will use the so-called "Republican formula" and bash Detroit. Granholm has taken the voters in Detroit for granted and has delivered very little. Her pathetic pandering at the Rosa Parks funeral was difficult to watch, I think she even saluted the coffin at one point. As far as political parties go and their ability to turn things around, it must be said that the City of Detroit has been run by Liberal Democrats for decades, and we all see the result. This is not to say that the all of the ills created by the decline in the US auto industry and the resulting problems are their fault. Politicians and Government in general are mostly an impediment to business and growth, not enablers. As the State of Michigan is rated dead last in every economic category, more of the same does not seem to make sense. Yes, there is gridlock between the governor and the state house. From a logical perspective, we know the Republican majority in the house will hold, so electing Devos would at least get rid of the gridlock and some action could be taken. I am not a cheerleader for the Republican Party either, as I consider myself more of a Conservative than a Republican. Many Republicans are out of touch at the national level and I disagree with many of their positions. Given these 2 candidates though, at least Devos has created jobs in this state and can bring that knowledge to the table to create some reforms that could make Michigan more competitive. As it is, we are being out-performed by several other rust-belt states that are facing many of the same issues we are. With all of our amazing natural resources, great universities, reasonable cost of living and knowledgeable work force it seems we should be able to do better… (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 22, 2006) | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.97.102 |
The Michigan State Legislature is Republican. The US Senate is Republican. The US House is Republican. The President is Republican. Both our state and federal courts lean conservative. Lets blame the Democratic governor. (Message edited by gmich99 on March 22, 2006) | ||
Iseries840 Member Username: Iseries840 Post Number: 168 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 12.31.43.194 |
------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- quote: Actually, I think you mean AA. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- What does Ann Arbor have to do with this? | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 428 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
I don't think anyone would mistake me for a big Granholm fan, but we are talking about DeVos here. DeVos by his own admission has no public administration background. His "business" is Amway, by any other name, and his primary contribution to its success was being born Rick DeVos's son. His political background is limited to writing big checks to the GOP, being married to Betty DeVos and organizing Michigan's school voucher proposal (and look where that went). Him and his family have ruined enough lives, there is no reason in entrusting the entire state's welfare to him. | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2157 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 70.158.51.2 |
He and the bunch of pigs he runs with are homophobes. They were some of the biggest donors behind Prop 2. Personally I think they are a bunch of psycho, cult-crazed loonies with money. My boss told me he sails with them and they are so rich that they have absolutely no reality of what life is all about. In short they are spoiled. They would make Engler look like Santa Claus...he MUST not win. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 283 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
All unemployed people in the state become Amway distributors. POOF! No more unemployment!  DeVos is too conservative to get elected in Michigan. Right-wing Christian Conservatives don't typically do well in these Midwest Blue states. What the GOP hasn't figured out yet is that Michigan voters like the traditional "law & order" Republicans who believe in small government, low taxes, personal rights and privacy, and being tough on crime. The religious morality and pandering to corporate interests won't fly in this left-leaning state. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 430 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
Shouldn't compare DeVos and Engler. Engler was a brilliant politician. I might not have agreed with most of his policies, but he was very skilled and always got what he wanted. Except when Bush was thrown into the mix, then he crashed hard. DeVos is just a spoiled beneficiary of circumstance who thinks he can buy his way into heaven and the governor's seat with the money his daddy lied con-ed and stole for. | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.97.102 |
Does DeVos remind anyone of a current president that has benefited the Midwest so much? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1284 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Nice first post, perfectgentleman. Rberlin, Devos' circumstances and background are similar to Pres. Bush's, no? Bush ran on the fact that he wasn't a DC insider, and it worked. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 434 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
I doubt many people believed that BUSH was anything other that an insider given the fact that he was governor of one of our highest profile and populus states as well as the small fact that he is the son of the previous president. What worked for Bush was the Connecticut cowboy act where he somehow convinced people that he was anything but a "East coast educated elitist." | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3384 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
DeVos has a large hill to climb, one that I don't think he will get to the top of. I'm sorry, but what were the state Republicans thinking in running a West Michigan conservative against Granholm? West Michigan may be growing quickly, but it still doesn't have enough clout, IMO, to kick Granholm out of office. As bad as the economy is, Granholm is still doing relatively good in the polls. Another Southeast Michigan (or anywhere but the stigmatized West Michigan) candidate would have given Granholm a run for her money. I don't think the Republicans' have the location right, this time, nor do they have any issues that are going to turnout more Republican's than Democrats this time around. In fact, there are quite a few issues that will turnout more Democrats than usual, IMO. This was a bad move on the state Republican's part choosing Dick DeVos. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
An incumbent well below 50% and within 2 points of a largely unknown challenger is not doing "good in the polls." West Michigan may have a "stigma" around Wayne County, but Detroit and Wayne County have a "stigma" too, to the rest of the state. Devos knows he will not win in Detroit, but he may steal some votes in Oakland, Macomb, and certain parts of Wayne County. You are assuming that Granholm will energize her base in Detroit, I don't think that is true, although I agree certain ballot initiatives will play a role in turnout. Lack of economic opportunity and uncertainty about the future is always a big issue to everyone, and probably works against the incumbents, regardless of party. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 440 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
"He and the bunch of pigs he runs with are homophobes. They were some of the biggest donors behind Prop 2. Personally I think they are a bunch of psycho, cult-crazed loonies with money. My boss told me he sails with them and they are so rich that they have absolutely no reality of what life is all about. In short they are spoiled. They would make Engler look like Santa Claus...he MUST not win." That's not very nice ILOVEDETROIT. Don't you like sailing? | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2159 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 24.172.45.2 |
Irish - You are such a nutcase conservative. I love sailing but not with crap in the boat! | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2434 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.65.159 |
"Ilovedetroit" you're all about loving things with crap in them. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3395 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Yeah, but what about the issue? Metro, what do you believe about DeVos' chances to take the governorship? Do you think DeVos was the Republican's best choice to run against Granholm? I personally believe there were many and better candidates the Republican's could have chosen from. | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 26 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 209.86.75.96 |
Regarding the East/West Michigan divide: I don't think it will be that big a factor. I'm sure DeVos will carry Grand Rapids, where the DeVos name is all over everything. But in the rest of the state he's waaaay too much of a nutjob conservative. And too friendly with Pres. Bush. The Granholm campaign should dig up all the pictures it can find of DeVos and Bush being all chummy, and splash them all over TV. Here's my stone-cold lock for my home, Kalamazoo County: Granholm 59%, DeVos 41%. Kilgore, feeling delicious in the Celery City | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3397 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Kilgore, you just showed why the East/West divide will hurt him. IMO, DeVos doesn't really have much of a chance outside of his voting block, which still isn't enough to carry him to the governor's office. He's not just a West Michigander, he's also outside of the mainstream of most Michigan voters on more issues than one. Outside of the suburbs and rural areas of West Michigan, he's like a fish out of water. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2435 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.65.159 |
LMich, I think Devos' chances are better than most people realize. As the economy/unemployment in this state continue to slide and Detroit continues with fiascos such as the mayoral election, zoo, and water issues; Granholm can easily lose a fairly substantial number of voters that she needs in Oakland, Macomb, and Western Wayne Counties. Devos was a good choice in terms of being an "outsider" as well as having a business background and wealth (to run a campaign, example his early tv ads that are giving him exposure). He is not a good choice in terms of political experience, possibly his religious beliefs, and possibly from being further to the right and not the moderate wing. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2437 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.65.159 |
I have employees myself and always rewared my top performers with more money than the lesser performing employees. -"Ilovedetroit" "My boss told me he sails with them and they are so rich that they have absolutely no reality of what life is all about." -"Ilovedetroit" More contradicting claims from "Ilovedetroit". Fits right in with he/she claiming to be a "middle class, creative class type" then changing the story to "six figure job in the suburbs". | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
If the rest of Michigan doesn't like "nut job conservatives," how did Engler get 2 terms? Was he a moderate? Hardly. Why is there a Republican majority in both the state senate and house? Say what you will about being "chummy with Bush," but Bush will be in office 2 years after the gubernatorial election. Who do you think that the Bush administration is more likely to listen to in regard to the plight of Michigan, DeVos or Granholm? The urban areas in Michigan have been losing population, these are the Democrat strongholds. I am sure you are right about the Kalamazoo area, but I think it may be closer than you think in the outlying areas… | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 840 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
The key to Granholm getting reelected is her ability to prove that the Republican legislature is what would not let her fix the economy. Most polls still show that a majority of Michiganders blame Bush for our economic problems than Granholm. Granholm also has done zero campaigning, although she has the spotlight everyday. DeVos will be in trouble if enough dirt is dug up on him. His connection to the very unpopular school voucher campaign could hurt him bigtime. He has already gone on record as saying Michigan voters have spoken on the issue. His family does have many Bush connections, including being huge Republican party donors. This could help his chances of getting national attention to try to unseat a Democratic governor who is vulnerable. DeVos has a chance if he can successfully convince voters that he is a better choice, and do that he does need to convince voters his views are not going to hurt that area with the largest voting block. but the economy is just bad enough around here to make it possible for him, although somewhat unlikely. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 435 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
Engler was not that big of a social conservative. Posthumas however, was. See the difference. I still don't see Oakland and Macomb coming out for DeVos, remember Oakland went for Kerry. They're paleo-cons. The last thing they want, aside from higher property taxes, is some one in Lansing telling them what they can do in their bedrooms. And can Metro and Love stop bringing their personal attacks into every thread they post in? I hoped that would have died with the Mayoral campaign. | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 28 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 209.86.75.96 |
Engler came off as more of a traditional moderate Republican - fiscal responsibility, tough on crime, etc. This is the kind of Republican that Michigan likes - think of the Reagan Democrats. DeVos, on the other hand, comes off as a really really rich religious fanatic. And too friendly with Bush, who's deeply unpopular right now. As for the Republican majorities in the state Senate and House, you got me there Perfectgentleman. All I can think of is the disorganization of MI democrats and lackluster support from the national party. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 436 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
Take a look at the district map too. | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2160 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 24.172.45.2 |
Metro - You really are a gfreakishthing...do you have to stalk me through all threads? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3398 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Exactly. Engler didn't come off as a wacky social conservative, and DeVos does for many. As I said earlier, he's not just from West Michigan (already a handicap outside of sub-urban and rural West Michigan), but he's religious to the point of where it is outside of the Michigan mainstream. The manufacturing sector can not get too much worse than it already is (GM and Ford are damn near out of plants to close in Michigan, lol), and even if it does, not fast enough to where it could erode Granholm's base, IMO. If anything can hurt Granholm on the economic front, it will be the Single Business Tax battle that is looming ahead. But, Michigan Republicans currently have very few issues that can turn out more voters than usual, while on the other hand, there are quite a few issues Michigan Democrats can trot out to get their people to the polls. Everything waits to be seen, but the Republicans will have a hard time capturing the governorship or national senate seats for quite some time until they can move Michigan siginificantly to the right, socially. And that's is quite a weighty task. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 9954 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236 |
Before we all start piling on this DeVos guy, can somebody please tell me exactly what the fuck Granholm has done? What the hell has she done to help out Detroit? Wasn't she supposed to be our savior? Sorry people, but I'm already looking for an alternative, and I voted for her! Michigan ranks almost dead last in so many areas in terms of business, it's no longer a laughing matter. So the guy comes from a rich background or family. Have you ever thought that may that is a POSITIVE quality? Of course not, we live in a city that is on the brink of receivership and everybody's main concern isn't how to balance the budget, it's how to fend of the state for a bit longer, it's how to keep control of the zoo, as this ain't no plantation no more, white people don't own us! It's hiking up the rates for the suburbs for water while not adjusting for the city. Detroit has been making it's bed up for years, now it's time to sleep in it. Granholm hasn't done shit to help Michigan or Detroit, DeVos may not be the answer, but change definitely is! | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 439 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
I don't know L. The "Civil Rights" Initiative is going to be on the ballot, and the Dems' minimum wage stunt was neutralized. I'm really wondering about how DeVos plans deal with Amway, because outside of Grand Rapids that's going to really scare people. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
Lmichigan, you are really playing up the supposed dislike of Michiganders have for West Michigan, I think your personal bias is affecting your judgment here. No big deal, I get reactionary at times too. I have been to literally every part of this state and have lived here all my life and I honestly don't hear people rambling on about how much they hate Western Michigan. On the contrary, that area is doing quite well by comparison and has been a great tourist destination for years for people within and out of the state. I think you also overestimate the fear people have of electing people that have religious beliefs. Most of the people in this state and country still describe themselves as Christians, and even Jenny is a Catholic who claims she is personally against abortion, but feels others should have a choice. It seems like every time she wants to pander to the African American community, she does a speech in a church. Prop 2 passed by 60% to 39% as you recall. Granholm just today removed same sex benefits for state employees. The social issues will not be at the center of this campaign anyway, because people know the governor has little impact on those things. The overriding issue in this election will be the economy, and Jenny is vulnerable on that. As for red meat initiatives that may bring out Conservatives, I seem to remember that the Civil Rights Initiative will be on the ballot, something that will bring out people from both sides. As for the devastation of the manufacturing sector being a “plus” for Granholm, I can see the campaign slogan now “Vote for me, because there are no more factories left to close!” Hardly a ringing endorsement of her economic plan. Jenny gives a better stump speech than DeVos and he admits this. But it is hard for an incumbent to talk about successes when there haven't really been any. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 22, 2006) (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 22, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3401 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Granholm has done more for cities in her first term in office than Engler did for his entire reign. I'm not a huge fan of Granholm, but DeVos is not even an option for me. I could easily see my self voting for a Republican, but not DeVos. He's way too far to the right for my liking. Sport, it's picking between two evils for you, and perhaps you need to find out more of DeVos to see how much worse Detroit would be off with him as governor. Think of reign of Engler...but worse. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 135 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 148.61.248.170 |
I go to Grand Valley, and one of my professors said that DeVos had a space for his helicopter for when he had to go to meetings there. Grand valley is about 20 minutes by bus from downtown. It's not much faster (if it's even faster at all) because by the time you get the helicopter all ready, and then to travel, and then land it, you could probably already get there by limo. I wouldn't consider him very moral, because that money wasted for no reason could go for anything better. From that he doesn't seem very concerned about the well being of the citizens. Then again he does spend alot of money on things around Grand Rapids, but I think that's more for his ego and good press than anything else. | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2162 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 24.172.45.2 |
Lmichigan - I agree with many of your comments and Sport (I generally respect your comments and thoughts as well)...I agree with both of you on what you have said. Granholm must win over DeVos he is sooooo far right that he will attempt to take this state as red as can be. He is not only fiscally conservative but socially as well (I mean VERY socially conservative). What has Granholm done Sport? Tough question to answer as her good has been overshadowed by Michigan becoming Michississippi! Here are some notable accomplishments that I am aware of and I have emailed a friend to get some other accomplishments that I am not as aware of: 1. Preserving Michigan's water. She is the one person who is keeping our water in Michigan to where we can manage it. The Republicans want our water and they will drain us dry. She is preseriving our lakes for Michigan's future. 2. She balanaced the messed up budget she inherited from Engler. The state we were in fiscally was not good and is righting many of the wrongs that we were left with. 3. She is a tireless campaigner to keep business in Michigan and attract it. Without her at the helm we would have lost even more! This is what I know. And I will get more from this political guru buddy of mine who is actually a republican but is supportive of Granholm...remember she was a republican until about 15 years ago. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 843 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
THe post about DeVos's helicoptor reminds of John Englers pledge to drive his Oldsmobile up to Mackinac Island instead of flying. Someone should ask DeVos if he will do the same. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 262 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5 |
"3. She is a tireless campaigner to keep business in Michigan and attract it. Without her at the helm we would have lost even more!" Yeah, we've lost a lot of jobs in Michigan, but without Granholm we would have lost even more? Talk about trying to turn a negative into a positive. New Granholm campaign slogan: Jenifer Granholm, slowing down the downward spiral of the Michigan economy. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 844 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
The biggest question is, if the legislature was not such a stick in the mud about passing anything that might make Granholm look good, would she have had more success. Hard question to answer. I think a lot of things are beyond any politicians control right now. If John Engler was not term limited, would there have been the economic problem. Or if Posthumus would have won would it have been any different? The dependance on the auto industry to our economy would not have been any different, so I venture to think whoever was in the governors seat would have had the same problems. You could also look from the standpoint of if a Republican would have been in governors seat, the legislature would have been willing to pass things (be it with a Republican agenda). Granholm might not be the best, but DeVos may be to far of a social conservative to win, or be what is good for this state. His key to winning will be convincing voters his view are not going to influence his judgement on running the state, and that he will not favor his home side of the state. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3414 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Rjk, that is all Granholm can hope to do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a governor or president can not single-handedly right a falling economy; they can only hope to steer it, and Granholm has done the best she can with what she's been given, IMO. That's how I judge her. It is not her fault that Michigan's manufacturing sector has been falling for decades. It's called globalisation, and with our free market system it is reckless to fully, or even mostly, blame an elected executive serving only 4 year terms(state, national) for an economy that has been tanking for decades. One can definitely criticize the policies made by these leaders to try and right or maintain an economy. For instance, I think the Bush tax cuts are a totally backwards policy, and I criticize him for that. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 340 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Granholm and her policies demonstrate that she's just another typical tax-and-spender. Increased taxes contribute adversely to an already lousy business climate in Michigan. Granholm's principal bankrollers of her two candidacies have been: (1) tort-law attorneys (by far, her #1 money source), and (2) public (government workers and teachers) and private labor unions. Both of these two groups "contribute" in order for them to achieve something of value in return. That "something" usually means more money for them, in one form or another... | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 10 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.63.232.195 |
So I guess the governer has no accountability for anything? Would you grant Engler a pass on everything that went wrong under his term? Maybe we should just eliminate the position of governer entirely because they apparently have no impact whatsover on the issues facing this state. Nobody is blaming her for all of the problems created by the global economy, but Michigan is DEAD LAST in almost every economic category. Other states in our region are out-performing us! Most of us try and do our best with what we have been given, but maybe Jennie's "best" just isn't good enough. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 75 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.216.122.110 |
Livernois: How can you say that she is a "tax and spend liberal?" This term does not even exsist anymore. She has balanced every budget, and, if memory serves me right vut taxes every year in office. This is such a better record then the standardbearor of the Republican party that it is not even funny. I used to repect conservatives for two things...moral values and fiscal responsability, and GW has destroyed my respect. I cannot bring myself to vote for man that would willingly ally himself with GW. Now we dont have "tax and spend" liberals, we have "Don't tax and spend" conservatives. Also, taxes are not the main reason business don;t locate here.... recently the News published an article that pointed out our corporate tax burden puts us 32nd out of 50 states in the rate we charge businesses, with #1 beign the worst. Also remember that before this fiasco to get rid of the SBT by 2007, Granholm already supported and signed legislation to get rid of it by 2009. | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 68.77.166.98 |
Granholm has disappointed in many ways, but she is showing good leadership in area of education (with Cherry Commission report, Education Department recommendation of new high-school curriculum, etc.) of late. Also, she is right to object to GOP Legislature's attempt to scrap the SBT — if you think Michigan is turning into a Mississippi already, you haven't seen nuthin' until they start making across-the-board cuts to higher ed funding, revenue sharing to cities, etc. to make up the nearly $2 billion gap. And recall she is the only one so far to offer up an alternative, which was weighed in favor of manufacturers but was killed because the insurance industry convinced their GOP brethren that it was too much to expect them to pay right around the national average for taxes on policies. Granted, I'd like to see her deliver more on earlier promises to curb urban sprawl, protect higher ed funding, not drill in the Mason Tract of the Au Sable and stand up for same-sex benefits. And she should, not least for the sake of her own political fortunes, work harder to forge relations with Detroit. But I do like her "Cool Cities" initiative, as cheesy as it might be, and her "fix it first" philosophy on road building comes as welcome sanity after years of paving over this green state under Engler. There. And not a negative word to be found about señor DeVos. | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 96 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 68.77.166.98 |
one last thing: Michigan's problems right now are so far-reaching that neither Granholm or DeVos are able to do much directly about it. Much of it is due to self-inflicted problems with the auto industry, although as much as GOPer paint it as the governor whining, Bush could at least get off his ass and look like he cared and take some action. That said, the economy is inevitably an election-year issue. Dems would be holding this economy against DeVos if the situation were reversed, no question. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
It appears there is no issue on the face of this planet that is not used by liberals to bash Bush! We have all heard you, you hate Bush! He is the root of all evil in the universe and everything wrong with this world is his fault. We get it. Unfortunately none of this gets us anywhere because it does nothing to solve our problems here in Michigan. I am sure Ms. Granholm is well-meaning and probably sincerely wants to turn this state around. Alan Trammel was a helluva guy and wanted desperately to turn the Tigers into a winning team, but he failed to do so and was fired. The person at the top is always blamed. Just like you guys blame Bush for all of the ills of the USA, it seems logical to hold Jenny at least partially responsible for the state we are in. I have not heard any aggressive plan from her to address the pressing issues we have, and of course she places blame on the state house for all of her problems. Even if we accept that argument, the Republican majority in the house will hold, so re-electing her is a vote for more stagnation. The state’s economy is in critical condition, the rest of the country has been seeing a nice recovery and we are not. The SBT is a major problem for business in this state. A tax on gross receipts is very punishing as many business’s are paying this tax even though they are losing money! I know many small business people who have held off on expanding their business and hiring people because of this tax, you literally are better off financially by NOT expanding in certain situations. We cannot put off reform until 2009! The iron is hot now, it is time to act! How many times have we seen this ploy before, put of things until after the election and then somehow we never get action later on. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 23, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3417 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I just had to quote this, again. I think people give far too much credit (good and bad) to governors and presidents in terms of the economy. Maybe you could tie it strongly to the executive if this were a Cuba or China, but our markets run damn-near parallel to our bureaucracy. | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.174.38.160 |
Voting in USA is like choosing between Tweedledee and Tweedledum. They are all Eyes Wide Shut/Masonic/Jesuiticial elitists in my opinion. | ||
1honey Member Username: 1honey Post Number: 110 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Before we all start piling on this DeVos guy, can somebody please tell me exactly what the fuck Granholm has done? Not a damn thing. What the hell has she done to help out Detroit? Not a damn thing, but suck up to the Mayor. Wasn't she supposed to be our savior? So she said when she ran her first campaign. Sorry people, but I'm already looking for an alternative, and I voted for her! I did as well. I feel you on that one Super. | ||
1honey Member Username: 1honey Post Number: 111 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Before we all start piling on this DeVos guy, can somebody please tell me exactly what the fuck Granholm has done? Not a damn thing. What the hell has she done to help out Detroit? Not a damn thing. Wasn't she supposed to be our savior? So she said when she ran her first campaign. Sorry people, but I'm already looking for an alternative, and I voted for her! I did as well. I feel you on that one Super. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3419 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
If you can't name anything good Granholm, than you obviously don't want to, because it's not like there hasn't been quite a few things described above. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 12 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
Well yes, I suppose that certain individual politicians who are only in office for a few years may not have a huge impact, but the government in total has an ENORMOUS impact. They regulate trade between the states and between the US and other countries. They regulate and tax business in thousands of ways. For example, we have a situation where our auto exports to China carry a 28% tariff while their exports to the US have a 2% tariff. Our government made that deal and it is grossly unfair to us and stupid. Here we are dealing with a regime with a huge labor cost advantage because of their oppressive system, they steal our intellectual property daily and manipulate their currency to give them another 20% advantage. We turn around and give them MFN status (under Clinton BTW) and total access to our market. Meanwhile they buddy up to our enemies and use our money and knowledge to oppose us on the world stage every chance they get. That kind of idiotic shit has a big impact on allot of things... | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 444 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
So, who has control over trade agreements? Bush and Congress, or Granholm? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 14 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
The agreement to form the WTO, NAFTA and MFN for China were all signed by Clinton. Your buddy Levin voted for NAFTA, and he continues to vote in favor of H-1B visas for foreigners to come here and take jobs from Americans. Bush was in favor of CAFTA, and has done little to help the trade imbalance. They have all sold out to special interests on that score. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 23, 2006) (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 23, 2006) | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 650 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.220.37 |
I don't know much about DeVos, except: (a) he has done a lot for downtown grand rapids, which seems to be doing very well; (b) he's built a hugely successful business that employs thousands of people in Michigan. Engler oversaw very propsperous years for Michigan. Bush has NOTHING to do with the state's problems. The rest of the country is five years out of the last recession. Repeat: there is no national recession. Pathetic Michigan (which includes its current poltical leadership) did this all to itself. You know what: don't change a thing. Re-elect Granhom. Stick to the class warfare, big-union, big-governmetn policies. Really. You're doing great. You're the envy of the world. China, California, India, North Carolina, Texas, Korea... they all quake in their boots at the thought of the mighty Michigan innovation and economic development machine. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3423 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Yeah, because the effect of foreigners on our economy is so much more negative than positive, right? I hate to get off subject, but it is so funny to see the Republicans implode when they begin to speak about "foreigners." The whole "those foreigners are taking our jobs" argument is not only in the minority, and so full of holes, but so inherently xenophobic it's not funny, because before it was the foreigners it was "those blacks." lol It just simply evolves when conservative and/or white America decides who the next outsiders are that are a "threat to their culture and/or economy." (Message edited by lmichigan on March 23, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3424 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Ray, what 1990's were you living in? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 15 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
I never said that foreign workers were a threat to our culture, but do you think it is fair to import low-wage workers (who are taken advantage of) into this country when we have thousands of unemployed American taxpayers who are totally qualified to do those jobs? I for one object to paying $15000 per year in federal taxes to a government who works to bring in people from other countries to take my job and source of income from my family. I don’t care what nationality the people are, it is not a racial issue. The vast, undiscovered frontier closed 100 years ago. There are literally 10’s of millions of people who wish to come here that would work for a fraction of what we do. Should we allow them all to come in, creating a caste system made up of exploited, low-wage workers who have no representation in our government because they cannot vote? Hell, if we eat our Wheaties we could probably give away all of the jobs in the USA! Until the US government starts responding to the citizenry they were elected to represent (80% of which want to restrict legal and illegal immigration) they should close down the American worker replacement programs we have now. It has been proven the INS cannot screen these people properly or keep track of them once they are here. In addition, they compete with and drive down the wages of lower income minorities that you claim to care so much about. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 23, 2006) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 852 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I agree Granholm could be ripe for the plucking, but at the same time, is DeVos the right person for the job. Is the fact that he is a social conservative going to cloud his judgement? Is he going to be pushing his morals on this state like Bush does with him on the nation? The fact that he is such a social conservative going to mean he is going to largely ignore the City of Detroit and other large liberal areas and go after the Oakland County vote. I suspect he will write of Detroit and not his for the vote, and let his buddies in the MI Republican party who are in Detroit every election harrassing voters at the polls. Since it is very unlikely DeVos will even visit Detroit, Detroiters need to go where his does come to Metro Detroit and ask pointed questions and demand real answers. But he could surprise us all and answer them the right way and be what this state needs, it could go either way. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 264 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5 |
"Rjk, that is all Granholm can hope to do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a governor or president can not single-handedly right a falling economy;..." My post had nothing to do with how she plans to deal with the economy as an issue in the election, only that when someone lists as one of her accomplishments that she's prevented more jobs from leaving than a republican would have she's in big trouble. There's nothing factual about that claim. That's something a challenger would say in his/her campaign: I'll keep more jobs in this state than my opponent. Granholm has been governor and should have a record of concrete accomplishments. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 856 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I think we are going to hear lots of things from both candidates that are not true. Like on DeVos's commercial where he is walking in an empty factory that was vacated during the Engler adminstration. I fear that DeVos is too much like Bush a spoiled rich kid that has no grasp of reality. But I would love to have DeVos prove me wrong, I just have yet to see proof that he will help the City of Detroit. | ||
1honey Member Username: 1honey Post Number: 112 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
If you can't name anything good Granholm, than you obviously don't want to, because it's not like there hasn't been quite a few things described above. You name them since you had something to stay behind what I posted. Maybe, I forgot something she has did for Detroit. Until then don't tell me what to post. Thanks | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 382 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.210.161 |
One of her best moves was giving preference to older cities in brownfield tax credits which has helped a lot projects in the city. Not just big ones like Techtown, but small ones too the like the renovation Lithuanian Hall in SW Detroit or the 4731 project in Woodbridge. You can be bet this will end if Granholm is gone. You can also bet Detroit and older burbs infrastructure will be ignored again in favor new outlying suburban areas. The Legislature has been trying to takeover the Transportation Dept for the past 4 because people like Craig DeRoche were upset that money wasn't being spent "where people live (Message edited by eric on March 24, 2006) | ||
1honey Member Username: 1honey Post Number: 114 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
Do anyone know if Granholm can get rid of Prop A? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 888 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 146.9.52.12 |
only the voters can do that | ||
1honey Member Username: 1honey Post Number: 116 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
What do you mean? Do we the voters have to get it on the ballot? | ||
Wcpo_intern Member Username: Wcpo_intern Post Number: 1870 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 71.227.58.187 |
PGM, welcome, you've said some good things, but I'm not following you on this one: "I, for one, object to paying $15000 per year in federal taxes to a government who works to bring in people from other countries to take my job and source of income from my family." If they took your job and your still paying the same amount in taxes, you need to take the H & R Challenge. Otherwise, you might just be allowing baseless rhetoric to create hypothetical examples of things that never happened. I would think a person would have to be an extremely poor employment prospect to be fired from a job and replaced by someone that doesn't speak english very well, doesn't have any friends or family with connections, and is dumb enough to think Michigan is the state to immigrate to when seeking employment. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 16 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
I am not talking about illegal aliens coming over the Mexican border taking my job. I am talking about folks from India and other countries being allowed in legally by my government even though there are plenty of skilled American workers to take those jobs. It is not hypothetical in the least, it has affected me and many of my colleagues in the IT industry DIRECTLY. You should read some newspapers and you would know this is not baseless rhetoric. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 348 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Duh! The point where 50% of former American IT jobs were offshored to the Pacific Rim or elsewhere occurred around 2003 or 2004, possibly earlier. This includes data processing, programming, help-desks, customer relations, and you name it. Ditto for the electrical engineering sector. I've been working with engineers from Asia, Switzerland, the Czech Republic, etc. in the semiconductor industry. Couple this with unregulated open-door immigration/smuggling policies, and soon the unemployment and high health-care expenditures will cripple the economy similar to what's happening to the microeconomies of once-prosperous GM and Ford. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on March 26, 2006) | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 451 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 65.43.45.201 |
I still can't believe that people are buying into the "successful business man" ads. His only success was being born rich. He later became the puppet president of a scam company called AMWAY. Again, I don't like Granholm much, but for God's sake, if you vote for DeVos you're retarded. Have to say it again, vote for DeVos, you should wear a helmet. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 256 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.212.44.27 |
Amway/Quixtar is an ENORMOUS scam. It has more in common with a ponzi scheme than any real business. To think this joker is running for governor and has $60 million to spend - holy effin schitt. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2481 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.51 |
Did anyone see DeVos on Flashpoint today? The man kept repeating L Brooks Patterson's name as though they were long-time buddies. Do NOT vote for DeVos. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1928 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.129.88 |
Is that blond in the TV ads his wife Betsy DeVos? I wonder how dear daddy is taking his son make it sound like DeVos Jr. did all the work towards building the company! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3441 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Nope. I'd assume the the woman on the commercial is some blue-collar, Alticor employee, seeing as how she talks about how he cut white-collar, management jobs. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3854 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.227 |
DeVos would hold a candle to Granholm supporters. YAY GRANHOLM!! 4 MORE YEARS!! 4 MORE YEARS!! 4 MORE YEARS!! | ||
Skamour14 Member Username: Skamour14 Post Number: 36 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 67.185.180.156 |
I just heard some gunshots going off @ what sounded like Woodward and Larned.... danny did you hear this?????? I always hear gunshots going off in my ghettohoods all of the time too!!!!! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3444 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Wrong thread, I'd imagine. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2269 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.20.105 |
Just a random, drive-by posting. |
