  Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
Hi all, I will be presenting a slide show of photography I have created inside and outside the Michigan Central Station over the past ten years to the Livingston County Photographers this Wednesday. This show is designed as a walk through and is given with a discussion of the past, present and future of the building. It will be in Brighton so I thought you suburbanites might be interested, I know it might be tough for those closer to the city to make it on a Wednesday night. Following is the blurb and the websites for more info and directions: Ann Arbor photographer Nick Reszetar will be giving a presentation, titled "Decayed Decor: Detroit's Michigan Central Railroad Station", to the Livingston County Photographers meeting on March 22nd, 2006 at 7pm. Designed by the same architects as New York's Grand Central Station, the world's tallest train station sits in quiet decay as Detroit's most famous ruin. Nick will give a detailed photographic walk-through of all aspects of the Michigan Central with an emphasis on the aesthetics of its current state of decay. He backs these images with many historical and factual references to keep everything relevant to its history and how it came to be in this current state. Additionally, much information and many photos about the building's surrounding neighborhoods and their affect on it through their history and the building's affect on them presently will be included. Directions: http://tinyurl.com/drxvc More information: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ livingstoncountyphotographers/ | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 236 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
If the MCS was ever restored and used for something other than a train depot the areas around the station would need to be redeveloped. What surrounds the station now? Who owns the land in the area? How polluted is it? Would people ever want to live there? The last time I was down there (a couple of summers ago at night), all I really remember is how impressive (and sad) the building looks. That, and the city abandoned half a street in the area (where it was once a divided road under the overpass, it is now one land with an adjacent abandoned lane). | ||
623kraw Member Username: 623kraw Post Number: 846 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.224.200 |
Those sites won't open on my computer. FIX THAT SCHITT UP!! Is the neighboring Roosevelt Hotel being fixed-up? A fire shut it down a few years back. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
I talk briefly about the Roosevelt in my show. Apparantly it is being converted into lofts. 32 lofts to be built with 18 left unsold. No signs of work being done yet aside from placement of the redevelopment sign and a chain-link, barbed wire fence around it. Looks entirely possible but I wonder how well it will do as lofts given the surrounding area. Not sure why your unable to link to those sites, working fine on my machine. Try a Google search for Livingston County Photographers, they also have a yahoo group site that should help you find the info. Anyone else having problems? | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1215 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 140.244.107.151 |
Thanks, Ventura67. Sounds interesting...I'm thinking of attending your presentation. BTW...no problem opening those links. | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 5414 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.216.150.127 |
Sounds really interesting. | ||
623kraw Member Username: 623kraw Post Number: 847 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.224.200 |
Thanks, Ventura - the links are now OK... | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1223 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 140.244.107.151 |
bump.... | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3426 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Ventura67, welcome to The Forum. Tell your audience you can see Canada through the building from the expressway when they come to Detroit from the suburbs. They might not know that. jjaba, Westsider, with memories of Charles Howell Scout Reservation. Is Brighton a suburb? | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1227 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.57 |
It was well worth the drive out to Brighton forVentura67's presentation this evening!! He presented an interesting and well organized hourlong photo slideshow in 8 parts, some set to music. He provided the historical context and clearly has done quite a bit of research on all facets of the building and the railroad operation. It's so amazing that he's been in and out of the train station from the very top in the depths of the basement and all around the exterior and into the surrounding neighborhood. The photos were terrific!!! Great job, Ventura67! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Joe Harris said that purchasing/repairing the MCT for KK's grandiose police building could cost $140 million. What private developer would want to put up that amount of money? | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 14 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Ventura67, Will this be presented again?? Just saw this thread this evening and would like to see the show. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
The next scheduled showing will be November 9th for the Belleville Area Council of Arts. They will have a 3 week long series "Gems of Detroit" with someone from Pewabic Pottery presenting the first Thursday, my show on the MCS the second Thursday, and a presentation on Belle Isle the Third Thursday. I will send out the official press release much closer to November. If there are any new shows that come up between now and then I'll certainly let you all know. Thank you Kathleen for the kind words and for coming out. Glad you enjoyed it. LivernoisYard, I've read that restoration/rehabilitation would cost $200-300 million. But, consider this: NY's Grand Central Station, MCS's sister built the same year and by the same architects, underwent a $200 million restoration in the last decade, and that's a building that was never closed, stripped, vandalized or intentionally neglected. The Grand Central did not lose all of its fixtures, irreplaceable decorations, copper, hand rails, plumbing, wiring, etc. to greedy owners. It never suffered brutal vandalism or EXTREME water damage. And it doesn't have a 13 story office tower that was an integral part of the design. I would imagine anything less than $200 million would be a drywall-over-the-decayed-origi nal type of operation, which would be a shame and an insult, in my humble opinion. I'm no historical architect but simply by considering the Grand Central's restoration cost of $200 million, the Michigan Central's must be twice that, at the very least!!!!! (At least to restore it close to its 1913 appearance, which in my opinion, do that or don't touch it.) But, I must say I'm not familiar with Joe Harris or his authority on the subject. Who is he? | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 804 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.236.176.97 |
different beast, ventura. grand central station has a vast network of tunnels underneath to which all trains enter and depart from. and, all trains are still used. there's no way to tell how much money was used in restoring the building itself (finishes, infrastructure, etc.) and how much money was needed to improve the transportation network, mechanical systems to service these parts, money used for temporary structures/services (both trains and people; the building was in use during the restoration), the cost to match existing finishes with new, etc. etc. our train station is completely unused, which means construction could happen undisturbed/no need for special planning. pretty much the entire thing would need to be gutted, so the demo would not be extremely selective. plus, ours is completely above ground. now, i'm not denying that it would take a pretty penny for renovation, i'm jsut saying that it is pretty inaccurate to compare the restoration of the two. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3429 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 192.220.139.10 |
Ventura67, can you give us some history of MCS, apart from the books we read like AIA guide and others? This would be so cool and perhaps show some of your photos? For fun, read our long thread Detroit Second Train Terminal, which waxes eloquently about Detroit's Fort St. Station, and other things to do with trains in Detroit. Merci! jjaba, Westsider. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I thought Joe Harris was like a household word, at least to Detroiters who have been keeping up with its financial affairs. He has been very vocal the past two years... Joe Harris is the ex-Detroit auditor, whose ten-year tenure ended last spring: Risky business The Harris Manifesto - Parting shots from Detroit’s auditor general Deficit fending Auditor: City may go broke - Without deeper budget cuts, Detroit is sure to run out of money, says its financial watchdog. Detroit triggers loan limit - State disqualifies city from borrowing without more scrutiny; receivership looms. Detroit on Brink of Fiscal Catastrophe | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
I have looked at the Fort Street thread and it is very interesting. Detroit has always been very good at wrecking its buildings instead of mothballing them and giving them a chance for the future. Let's hope the MCS doesn't fall to the same fate. Good point, Rsa, but I still don't imagine restoration could be done PROPERLY for any less than the Grand Central's total. Every rain that pours down, every freeze after a rain, every vandal that dusts his grubby, nasty little hands off as he walks away from the building after dropping his lead pipe is mounting up the $$$$$$$$$$$$. O.K., here's a bit of knowledge of the building that may not be floating around, got it from a man who worked in the building as a Conrail employee. He was the building's transportation superintendent through part of the 70's and loved to explore the then mostly vacant offices. The top floor, my personal favorite floor of the tower, which was never "finished", was used as storage for a huge collection of personal correspondence between members and coleagues of the Vanderbilt family, who owned the New York Central Railroad which owned the Michigan Central Railroad since before the MCS's creation. After the closure of the building all of the material was removed to a railroad museum somewhere in Michigan for safe keeping. (He told me where but I can't remember now. If anyone is dying to know I can still find out.) Each time I show this show I collect a few bits and pieces of history, personal and factual. People love to talk about this building. Enjoy the photos, a few samples from the show.   | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 966 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.40.213 |
Welcome Ventura67 to the forum. The 2nd TT thread has kind of become the general train topics thread, so if you want, start posting your stuff about MCD in it, or start a new thread about it as it certainly is deserving of its own ongoing thread. Perhaps you could look at the Sanborn map that I recently posted in the 2ndTT and identify or comment on it. What are the locations of the above photos? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3435 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Great suggestion Hornwrecker. You've worked hard on the train and the old car factory threads. jjaba. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 805 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.215.246.190 |
of course you're right about the length of deterioration, ventura, i would just caution you and anybody else at hazarding a gues regarding cost of restoration. it really depends on what the ultimate use of the building is. the need might not bee there to restore all the railings, etc. on upper floors. it also relies very heavily on the structural integrity of the building; the things you can't see. a huge deterent in restoring some of these old buildings is that water has gotten in between the face brick and structure. over time the water rusts the metal anchors that connect the two (see ua theatre/currency exchange building and lee plaza) so that the existing facade would more than likely have to be taken off and rebuilt. big cost. so, while in reality it might be upwards of $150-200 mil, there is no way to make an accurate guess-even if it is towards the minimum side. hornwrecker; those are from the unfinished 18th floor ventura was talking about (yes i have been in the building). thanx for the pics and stories ventura. very enjoyable. the architectural firm that i work for now was the last office to vacate the office portion. my boss has some really great stories and pics that i'll have to share at a later date (when i get more time). -rsa (RockStArchitect) | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
Since you are apparently an architect or involved with architecture I will certainly bow to your knowledge on the subject of rehabilitation and its costs. But, just for curiosity's sake, could those chandaliers even be recreated at any cost, though? Just as a side note, would you dare venture a guess on repairing the roofs, at the very least to help protect what is left? Just good ammo for firing at the blatant neglect of the building. I can't imagine a roof repair would be terribly expensive compared to the return of investment. Of course there's still the matter of the hundreds of broken windows letting water and moisture in from all levels and sides, but a roof is obviously a first line of defense. Is the lack of any stabilizing repairs by Controlled Terminals just proof of a demolition-through-neglect attempt at the building? (I am mildly impressed with how quickly they seem to mend rips in the fence, though. Mildly. But then, that's probably offset by the savings in insurance policies.) Maybe we should let this thread die soon, before it gets too far off the original topic. But I can't wait to here your stories, rsa. One last note in loose relation to the original topic. Many of you may already be aware of this, sorry for any repetition: The Matrix Theater has created a play about the station and it is currently running. Just made my reservations for the show on the 31st. We will most certainly hit Los Galanes before hand. Check it out: www.matrixtheatre.org/ | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1236 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 140.244.107.151 |
Thanks for the reminder on the Matrix Theatre production. I had been thinking about going to the Sunday afternoon performance, but it kind of slipped my mind. | ||
1honey Member Username: 1honey Post Number: 117 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
Great pictures on... http://detroitfunk.com/ | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 807 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.255.247.37 |
oh sure, those chandeliers could be reproduced. might not be as costly as you think either, given new technologies in materials, lighting, tensioning (cables), etc. i have seen the drawing set for the building floating around somewhere, so that's a big help (both for the chandeliers and the building itself). i hate to cop out on you again, but it really depends on the level of degredation to the structure beneath the roofing structure itself. replacing the roof on the office tower probably wouldn't exceed 10's of thousands (rough guess: 60k). the waiting area would be the next most costly, probably doubling the previous amount mostly because it is pitched. the concourse area would be the most expensive because it is all steel and glass which i'm not even going to hazard a guess at. but, again, this depends if you have to replace the structure underneath (mostly applicable to the main areas on the ground floor). if you do, then you run into additional structure cost, engineering cost, stabilization cost, scaffoldings, etc. and it depends if you want to replace the original copper, which-needless to say-would add tons of money. off of the top of my head, not a professional opinion, i would guess somewhere in the neighborhood of $3mil to at least seal and stabilize the roof(s). i'll think about it and give you a better estimation later... but, if we're talking basic preventative measures, you could buy a whole bunch of tarps that would effectively seal out most water for a few years. considering that, it might help with your demolition by neglect argument. quick sidebar: nice mention of the matrix theatre. the firm i'm at handled the renovation of that space  also, you'd be amazed at some of the tangents these threads can take! have a great weekend. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
How about one giant tarp for the whole building- The world's biggest tarp! ;) The original blueprints are at Detroit Library's main branch, at least they were half a dozen years ago. They even had the major mods Amtrak made in the early 70' superimposed. Good job on the Matrix, nice building from the outside. I look forward to seeing the interior next weekend. It actually made an appearance in my slideshow. Any history on that building that you've got?  | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 1818 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.72 |
once a neighborhood grocery, later a storefront church, then abandoned, then reclaimed. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1242 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.57 |
Thoroughly enjoyed today's matinee of "Homelands: Michigan Central" presented by the Matrix Theatre Company!! If you get a chance to see it this week (last day is next Sunday, April 2), you won't regret it. Of course, spent some time beforehand shooting additional pix of the train station, post office, and neighboring sites. Warmed up at Slow's BBQ before the show. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
Does anyone have a picture of what the Matrix looked like before restoration? | ||
Breezybee Member Username: Breezybee Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.123.84.196 |
Does anyone know how or even if it is at all possible to get inside the MCS? I am currently working on my Master's thesis in historic preservation, the station being my building of choice, and I would like to include interior and exterior photos of the building. | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 876 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.184.29.148 |
If you do not mind talking to the various law enforcement personel that may want to arrest you it is not an issue. Some of the groups are INS, Railroad Police, Homeland Security, ATF and the Detroit Police. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1058 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 136.1.1.33 |
Just curious, do we know for sure that the roofs are in need of repair, and to what extent? It is pretty clear that the windows are letting in the elements, at least. The building seems to be pretty well sealed-off from trespass these days, though. Not like in '94 when you could just waltz in the front door (as I did). | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
Absolutely no doubt that the roofs need repair, especially the junctions where two roofs meet, as in the back side of the waiting room, or where the roof meets facade elements. Rain practically pours in. The roof over the concourse is, I guess, +/- 40% gone.  | ||
Bertz Member Username: Bertz Post Number: 543 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.61.15.89 |
Dougw, was any part of the skylight intact in 94? | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1062 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 136.1.1.33 |
Ventura: Ok, I'm convinced. Bertz: Not sure, I only really looked around the huge main front room with the arched ceiling. (the concourse?) Where is the skylight? |
