  Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2170 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.163.181.81 |
in the middle of this article: The Super Bowl victim a city forgot did y'all catch: ... In 2003 ... Kyle was a government witness in a corruption case against William "Robocop" Melendez, one of 17 Detroit police officers prosecuted ...Wow. | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 513 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Reading that article was painful. Dpd is such a joke, inept, corrupt, and useless. How can this murder be unsolved? Come to think of it, the Hart Plaza fireworkds shooting spree is still unsolved isn't it? Unacceptable...this is the world's richest nation in the year 2006. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 395 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
They published the name of a murder witness before she had identified the suspect?! That girl better get some protection pronto! I find it hard to believe any editor would have allowed that to happen. Did I misunderstand something?! | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 1931 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.47.100.44 |
In complete agreement with Jimaz, there is no reason to put that person at risk. What's the editor thinking by putting that out there? | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1520 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.214.242 |
She had some issues, and these issues probably contributed to her death. Coincidence that she would run into a person on the street who had a gun? It's possible that she may have known the shooter. They may have been drug buddies and she owed him some money. I don't know. However, this belief that she was an innocent bystander minding her own business doesn't wash. Also, if she was the witness in a criminal investigation against corrupt cops, current police working on this case may know about this and aren't that eager to try to find her killer because she "ratted out" one of their own. Who knows? Human nature is a strange thing. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 396 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
I emailed the author about my concern for the safety of the murder witness. I hope I just misunderstood something.  Perhaps it's a false name intended to flush out the suspect? | ||
Paulj Member Username: Paulj Post Number: 344 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.251.199.185 |
Jimaz... I think you did misunderstand. The murder witness is also the superbowl shooting victim, theres no-one to protect anymore... unless *I* misunderstood | ||
Eastside Member Username: Eastside Post Number: 803 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.246.10.58 |
royce ...of all the speculative crap in your post, your statement "I don't know" rings closest to truth. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.252.7.84 |
That's what I got from it too Paulj. That she testified three years ago and now she's deceased. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 397 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
I just went back through the above link to double check. I wasn't referring to Kyle Smith herself but to the person who "saw the shooter" of Kyle Smith. I don't feel comfortable spelling out the other person's name here. I did also read this: "In 2003, when Kyle was a government witness in a corruption case ...." Did that also involve murder? I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for checking me though. It's a very sad story indeed. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 755 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.252.7.84 |
Gotcha. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 50 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.19.247 |
Royce, Are you retarded? Are you saying she had it coming because she had an argument? It doesn't matter what she did. She didn't deserve to get shot and killed. I'll be you didn't say that about Malice. | ||
Super_d Member Username: Super_d Post Number: 761 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Royce, the fact that a white ex-burbie got 'smoked' is the issue__ if it was a typical brotha' from the hood', you would not hear the outrage from 'y-t' The chick had a big mouth and it finally caught up with her! 'hood-rule' #3 of the city..... "don't let yo' mouth write a check that yo' ass can't cash"! super d(motordetroit) | ||
Moreta Member Username: Moreta Post Number: 182 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
This is disgusting. Yes, this woman was undoubtedly offending the shooter in some way. Yes, she had a history of drug abuse and other issues. There is always the chance there was a history of some kind with the shooter. None of this *excuses* the shooting. None of this *excuses* the lack of communication from the DPD or the apparent lack of progress in the investigation. None of this reassures the family of the victim that is now trying to deal with a police department that doesn't give a damn about anything, institutionally speaking. Of course the portrayal of the city in this article is slanted. No amount of city-bashing, however, justifies this 'she got what she deserved' attitude. Unless she pulled a gun on this man and fired at him, she did not deserve what she got. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1524 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.214.242 |
321brian, what is clear in this story is that we don't know the "whole" story. The media, unless it's a story on 60 Minutes, never tells the whole story. The news story said that she did have something to drink before she left out of her apartment. However, her friends say that she only had a couple of drinks, but maybe that's all it took for her to lose good judgement. She also had a temper according to a relative. This could have contributed to the altercation. Also, she was a former drug addict who probably did her drugs here in Detroit. Maybe she knew the shooter and they had a beef from those days. I'm sorry 321brian, but I'm not feeling as sympathetic towards this young lady now that I know more about her troubled past. It's unfortunate that she had to die, but she had enough issues to say that she wasn't an innocent by-stander. BTW, Malice Green was killed by two aggressive cops, but the crack cocaine did him in years before. The drug use also played a role in his death. I wasn't as sympathetic about his plight after I heard he was a crack addict. Sorry, 321brian, but if you contribute to the bad things that happen to you, don't ask me to grieve to long. | ||
Ddaydave Member Username: Ddaydave Post Number: 332 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 67.149.185.244 |
Hmmmm by the sounds of that last post Royce it would be justified to shoot people in detroit with troubled pasts ...the homeless wouldn`t stand a chance | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 55 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.19.247 |
Royce, WHAT?!!! Your sorry "she had to die". Whatever she did that night and whatever she did before that doesn't make it right to shoot her. If all she had were a few drinks a loss of good judgement she was a lot more innocent that the piece of shit who shot her. I know that the story was only telling her familys side but it did go into the fact that she had a drug past which is the first I heard of it. It's that hard ass attitude you have that give Detroit a bad name. Let some dunb ass drug addict shoot someone you love. Maybe you'll see some not so great things in their past all over the news. I hope they stick a mic in your face so you can say "Well you know she had a temper. It's unfortunate she had to die but she had enough issues to where I can say that she wasn't an innocent by-stander. Don't ask me to grieve to long." Ya, right. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1525 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.214.242 |
321brian, it is apparent that we don't feel the same way about this incident. I am under no way trying to justify the shooter's reason for shooting her. However, there was a part in the news story that said SHE was jostling the shooter before he shot her. That sounds serious and she was with a friend also, two against one. The shooter, although a coward in my book, might have felt the jostling was a justification to shoot her. Although tragic for her, she wasn't an innocent by-stander and the media should not play it up that way. 321brian, you want me to feel like you do. I don't and that's just me. I feel people are responsible for their actions. And if the young lady was drunk, beligerent, and physically aggressive, and this led to her death, then her actions led to her death. She could have also taken another course of action. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 56 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.19.247 |
i'm not saying she didn't deserve something. If she had a gun then fine but she didn't. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1526 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.214.242 |
Ddaydave, your behavior contributes to most of the things that happen to you. If I go into a bad neighborhood looking for drugs and I get robbed and shot or even killed, I wouldn't want people grieving for me. I was attempting to do something illegal and something bad happened to me as a result. My actions played a direct role in my demise. Sure, I don't DESERVE to be robbed, shot, or killed for trying to buy illegal drugs, but I should have known the risks. That's a part of life and death, people. Deal with it. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3326 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Super d, that is exactly the shit that is crippling much of inner-city Black America. So she couldn't "cash her check," a killing is inexcusable, and that blasé/nonchalant "shit happens 'cause it's the hood" mantra is sickening, self-defeating, and strangling a huge portion of Black America. Ms. Kyle could have called him all kinds of "B%tch-&ss" and this and that and it still doesn't excuse someone taking out a gun and shooting someone to death. It's time for these self-defeating "hood rules" to die, and die hard and now. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 931 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133 |
Nobody deserves to die like that. No matter what their history, or what they said. And the fact there are no leads/suspects makes it even more disturbing. | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
This is a sad and sickening thread. The asshole apologist for hood violence are revolting and they and their tripped up violent beliefs are the primary reason (along with a crazy, racist CC) that Detroit will likely continue to struggle. This girl may not have been a saint, but she definitely did not deserve this violent ending to her life. Just as the 12 year old black kid who gets inadvertantly picked off in some asinine drive by shooting, this culture of street violence and its nauseating acceptance remains the noose around the neck of the potentially great City of Detroit. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 919 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
have to agree with docmo. And since when was the CBD of the 11th largest city in america the "'hood"? | ||
Urban_shocker Member Username: Urban_shocker Post Number: 258 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.141.181.161 |
Pretty big surprise that this thread devolved into the ol' she deserved it/she didn't deserve it garbage. | ||
Eastside Member Username: Eastside Post Number: 805 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.246.10.58 |
The jigga's in the neighborhood did not get the memo that they no longer belong downtown...we have conceded the hoods to them, but the revitalization of Detroit has begun downtown...and this "brotha" and his like aint a part of it. I think that may have been the shooters biggest complex. Thats what this story is about...I think. A clash between the old Detroit and the new. The violence that happened that night may have been a result of growing pains, of a city trying to shake the shackles of its past...and sometimes when the cultures of old and new collide, there is friction. In this case, friction in it's rawest form...violence in the street. And for all those who wish the shooter will be brought to justice...hood rule #4..."live by the sword, die by the sword" This guy has so little impulse control, he will be consumed and succumb to the same violence he perpetuated that night on Woodward...make no mistake about it. Thats his world...he from the hood. In that world, this "brotha" will be lucky to see the sunrise for 5 more years. | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 514 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Very true and profound post, docmo. I can only imagine the incredible city Detroit could be if it weren't for racism on both ends and the city's legendary violence. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 421 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
I noticed that she had been a government witnees aginst the indicted 17. I sat in on that trial (of the first 8) for many lunch hours. I was sickened by the witnesses. If they weren't drooling, dancing prostitutes they were very aggrieved people who were clearly co-opted by the prosecutors. I was, stupidly, shocked at what the prosecutors were willing to do to win at any cost. Happily the jury was just as convinced as prosecutorial bias as I was. I thought very much less of that girl after reading that. That said, I noticed something else in the article: no call-backs by the police. I have been trying to reach the commander of the SW District for weeks. I stop in and leave my card. I call. He does not bother to return calls. I saw him at a meeting last week and he said that he didn't call me back because he has nothing to say. Then I tried to reach the chief - but no one calls back from there either. Finally, because the matter concerns the arrests and overnight jailing of two neighbors (seperate incidents) without any investigatory work as a result of outrageous accusations of a mentally ill woman , I contacted the Federal Monitor. The DPD is in chaos and the Command Staff has an arrogant attitude. | ||
Eastside Member Username: Eastside Post Number: 807 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.246.10.58 |
...but Southwest, the only witnesses in the case were people of dubious credibility. The Feds knew those cops were dirty...and they took their best shot with what they had. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 422 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
Well, the jury sure didn't agree that those cops were dirty. Were you at the trial? The witnesses made a life career out of lying. Why should anyone believe that they were telling the truth about their experiences with the 4th precinct? By the way, I have no relatives or close friends in the DPD. I do, however, live in SW Detroit and saw first-hand how things went to hell after the 18 were indicted. Absolutely no institutional knowledge of the neighborhood or the bad guys was left. The Commander was canned. After some 20 years of trouble-free living, my car ignition has been broken three times, I had my back door beaten in when I was sleeping upstairs and another time, my kitchen window was jimmied open at 7:00 PM (but the dog must have scared the guy off). The cops work a huge area and have no famiarization from day to day with any single neighborhood. We're on the fifth commander since Gomez (who was a professional!). | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2172 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
My point of starting this thread was not to get some BS discussion going on the character of the victim or the specific circumstances of her murder. IMO it shouldn't come as too much of a suprise that people from the region looking for the high life might migrate to Detroit to do it (even if they do happen to livein the CBD and "say nice things about Detroit"). Who do you think buys those drugs sold in Detroit just native-born Detroiters? SE michigan has been using various city of Detroit neighborhoods as their drug playpens for generations now. (Recall CL's war stories.) Those white hookers ya see walking on Michigan Ave, where do ya think they grew up? Brewster Douglas Housing project? Crary-StMary?? Idaho??? Kentucky???? Get real. More likely Adrian, Harrison, Westland, etc. ... but anyway ... What I found stunning and why I started this thread was that she had happend to have been a prosecution witness in what was the largest and certainly weirdest (see SWmaps comment above) corruption trial in Detroit in recent memory -- and some of us have loooong memories. To someone merely casually following the trial, the results of it have been far-reaching and quite significant (again see SWmap's comments) -- imagine the impact it had on those involved directly in it. Detroit remains a terrible wonderful place. (Message edited by rustic on March 13, 2006) | ||
Eastside Member Username: Eastside Post Number: 809 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.246.10.58 |
The Feds knew they had an uphill battle convincing a jury of their case...when the list of witnesses are lowlifes and the defendents have badges. Many cases involving police misconduct never come close to going to trial for just that reason. I can certainly appreciate the fact that you reside on that side of town Southwest...and I have empathy that those indictments seemed to directly impact crime over there. The jury has spoken...no doubt. Keep in mind however that the Federal Gov. is not in the business of wasting time and money prosecuting cases...of which they dont already know what was going on. You think the Feds were conned by these pimps and dope dealers? No chance. The Feds knew these were renegade cops, the problem was that the only people who could testify to first hand accounts of their lawless activities were the victims...who happened to be totally non-credible. Of course you would not refer to these people as victims...since they were the ones who were (and maybe still are) terrorizing your hood. It's easy to see who's side your on Southwest...but nobody is above the law, and that was the point of the Federal prosecution. "The witnesses made a life career out of lying. Why should anyone believe that they were telling the truth about their experiences with the 4th precinct?" ...you are exactly right Southwest | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
"there was a part in the news story that said SHE was jostling the shooter before he shot her" Not quite, Quoted from Article.. "...were catching up to Kyle and Peterson when a young man on the crowded sidewalk accused Kyle of jostling him. He called her a name. She swore back at him..." While he May have been 'jostled', it wasn't necassarily her that did the shoving, as Anyone who has been in a crowd of drunks knows. He likely got pushed, turned around and hers was the first face he saw.. I doubt he had any way of initially knowing if she was with somebody so the 2 against 1 argument doesn't really wash either. Obviously, her best course of action would have been avoidance, to walk away from the situation and continue enjoying her evening. But what do I know? I'm just someone who thinks before speaking to anyone. If she had been drinking, even just a couple (2), she wasn't as cleaned up as her family and friends like to think she was. I love the lines on the Cops shows "but officer, I only Had 2 beers..." as they stagger and stumble around. I know from personal extended family experience, that the only thing that'll make a crack-head stop is either lack of property and cash, or death. It's a hard master to serve and one that doesn't easily let go. I'm not saying booze = crack (or whatever drugs she had been on) but one will usually lead to the other in an addict, recovering or not. There may be a few that can beat it, but most don't. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
She was shot by a guy that had no business carrying a gun. Excuse me but some of the comments here are just people trying to justify a scumbag commiting murder. The real concern should have nothing to do with imaginary flaws in a victim's character but finding the shooter and putting him away for good. Or dare it be said, victim was white, scumbag with gun was black? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 411 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
I've had no response yet to the email to Ms. Berman as of close of business on Monday. Maybe she considers me a nutcase for caring.  I'd assume everything's okay though since the name appeared above the fold on the front page of the printed edition. Surely the Detroit News editors scrutinize front page stories more carefully. Maybe the name had been previously released anyway? I dunno. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1531 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.215.16.140 |
Angry_dad, how would you know if the guy had no business carrying a gun? How do you anything? Your conjecture is no different from mine. You just don't like mine. | ||
Super_d Member Username: Super_d Post Number: 764 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Memo to 'yt'__ racism and violence is an amerikkkana institution, not a Detroit thang! Brothas' don't go around randomly shooting people for no reason! Obviously the transplanted white girl from the 'sticks' inherited a priapic disposition by absorbing the 'image' of the city, set forth and perpectuated by sources like the racist news and print media. Unfortunately her 'girls gone wild' attitude didn't translate into real life...there is a 'hood' etiquette that the white girl obviously didn't follow or for that matter--had no clue about__ thus the inevitable violent act, whether it was that night or some other night it was bound to happen because of her roisterous attitude and lack of street skillz! Do I feel bad--not really--infact, there is a deep rooted satisfaction of 'get-back' and relief that most Black Detroiters hold to when a white person is thrust into the very nature in which they stereotypically critize about the 'Black on Black' experience. super d(motordetroit) | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 969 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
Speaking of the gun, wasn't it a shotgun this guy was carrying. Large in size to be walking down the street. Why??? | ||
Ddaydave Member Username: Ddaydave Post Number: 337 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 67.149.185.244 |
Angry_dad you 100% right I can`t figure out how anyone can justify this | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3330 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Super-d, let's just hope that you are never caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. I fear I'd have a deep rooted satisfaction, as well. And it's really something I'd rather not feel. Be careful in what you condone and wish for. And God I hope people avoid your comments like the plague you racist pig. You disgust me more than Angry Dad, and that is a helluva' hard thing to do. (Message edited by lmichigan on March 13, 2006) | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 580 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
"He shoved her to the ground, took out a gun and shot her, rapid fire, a bunch of times. It sounded like a machine gun," she says. As he tried to shield Kyle, Peterson was hit twice, in the leg and abdomen." hmm, doesnt sound like it would be a shotgun...Did earlier reports say it was a shotgun used?? | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 65 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.19.247 |
Super_d, That is a very enlightened attitude ya got there. Is perpectuated a word where you live? Finna gonna explain? Seriously, your right in a way. White girl in Detroit? Of course she deserved to get shot. What white person walking around downtown at night wouldn't? I thought the benefit of having to type your thoughts would give you time to reflect and actually think about what you are saying. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1012 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.74.30.120 |
Who is 'y-t', anyway? | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 582 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Ugh... Weve got a long ways to go in Detroit.. I suppose being a white kid from the suburbs I dont have a right to walk down the streets, or move there?? I dont have the right to expect some protection?? Well, I am going to keep on walkin, and keep on visiting, and eventually move there. Change comes one person at a time. I would have to believe though that something else happened in this altercation...I have never once felt "scared" while downtown..sure, a little nervous if I turn down the wrong street, one with no lights and graffiti/litter/ etc, but I have never felt threatened downtown | ||
Super_d Member Username: Super_d Post Number: 765 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
'321 brian' stated...
brilliant! give the guy a point!__ seriously is that all you can bring dog?! L.michigan stated....
What was racist about my comments? Maybe provocative, but certainly not racist. You are a confused brotha'! Most whites are ready to lynch the brotha' without a trial__ How do you or anybody else know what the true circumstances are behind the shooting ? As far as any of us know, the brotha' might be 'hiding-out' for fear that he is already guilty as charged! Think of it this way, A white girl who moved to the city to help the cities revitalization was killed during Super Bowl weekend! (that is what her people and the media burnt into our mind initially, remember ?) The perpetrator is more than likely scared of a society that has already listed him quilty__ who says the white girl did not help contribute to her own demise? There are so many un-answered questions to this killing__ and most of you are ready to do-away with the brotha'. So who's the racist pig????! super d(motordetroit) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3331 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
You are a blatant racist, and you've let it show, here, among other places. You'll never see the forest for the trees. WTF?! You are missing the point. Killing another human, if it is not in self defense, is a crime against humanity. It is inhumane. We were not created to kill one another; we are not born to kill our fellow man no matter how many excuses, and it is just that, excuses, they give us to do so. As I said, I don't care if she called him all outside of his name, he had no right to shoot her? Are you going to argue, though, that you suspect he was defending himself, despite no substantial evidence to support that? Or are you arguing that it is alright for someone to die if they provoke someone else? Which one is it? | ||
Super_d Member Username: Super_d Post Number: 766 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I never said she deserved to be killed__ however you can't dismiss the inherited social ills and circumstances that people deal with each and every day. I try not to provoke people in everyday life, because you don't know what people are thinking or what they are dealing with. Living in the city, regardless if it is Detroit, New York, Chicago, or any other city, there are certain unwritten rules that you should adhere to. That's not racist, that's just common sense! The Summer that I spent in New York about 20 some years ago with my cousin in the Bronx, he had to explain to me the do's and don'ts of the Bronx.... one was not to offend poor white Irish catz that lived in a particular part of the Bronx. And there were parts of the South Bronx that we could not go in! You want to live in this 'la la world' but unfortunately that's not the way it is__ no one deserves to die__ I may die tomorrow, am I scared, perhaps........... but the fact is, this is amerikkka, and we thrive on violence, we love Scareface, The Sopranos, Al Capone, __ this country was built on the murders of innocent people. So get real 'L.michigan', you as a Black Man should understand the difficulty in controlling the inherited mentality of 'Black Rage' that we possess. It's not easy sometimes, but we deal with it...and that alone should be recognized and understood. super d(motordetroit) | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1532 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.215.16.140 |
There are obviously two camps here with different opinions on this shooting. There are people here that have the opinion that "no one deserves to die regardless of the circumstances," and there are people here that have the opinion that "she contributed to her own demise." I side with this latter opinion, not because I am heartless but because I have to find a way to rationalize this event in order to make sense of it. The acceptance that things just happen to people at random is scary. In order for me to feel a little bit safe living in this city or in this world for that matter, I have to believe that my actions through the course of a day help me make it back home safely by the end of that day. In order to accept the shooting, I have to seek out evidence that says that the shooting was not random; that it wasn't a freak of nature and that it had a logical and rational reason for happening. To explain the shooting in any other way for me is to accept that I have no control of my life. It means accepting that I could have been the victim, given the fact that I had walked passed that very same spot where the young woman was killed only hours earlier. It was not my intent in earlier posts to suggest that this shooting was justified. There was no justification for this young woman to be shot. My earlier posts were my way of rationalizing the shooting. Also, it was not my intent to defame the young lady's character. To address her behavior prior to the shooting, was my way of rationalizing the shooting. The idea that "she had to do something" that led to her being shot is a lot easier to take than accepting that there are heartless and cruel people in this world who won't think twice about killing you over some minor incident like an accidental bumping in the street. I hope this explains where I am coming from on this issue. As a Detroiter I dispise any kind of violence here in the city or anywhere in the world. Now more than ever, we need to learn how to get along with each other because the world has become a smaller place. Tolerance is a must. (Message edited by royce on March 14, 2006) | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.227.49.60 |
The number one priority in this case is to find the shooter. But since his actions have no justification or excuse, he is so gutless he won't turn himself in. I believe there are people in the area who know who he is. As long as any excuse is given to hide him or justify his actions, he will continue to run free. Then the only question is "who will be next?" | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
Lmichigan, Thanks for taking on Super_d for the warped,hateful person that he is. His attitude that the mouthing off, stupid white chick from the sticks desrved this fate is exactly the type of behavior and reasoning that keeps Detroit a 2nd class, race divided city. Super_d wants it this way. He doesn't want whites in his city, err, hood. He rationalizes that black people are the victims of racial insensitivity in the suburbs, so, therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to take out the white bitch who jostled the brotha. Super_d is fucked up. He rationalizes that most whites are hateful, bigots so, why not, pick off some stoopid mouthing off white chick. Maybe blacks do receive uninviting stares or are pulled over by police racial profiling in the suburbs. In super_d's twisted ,hateful racist mind these events justify blowing away a half drunk white chick with a big mouth who didn't belong in this black asshole's hood to begin with. This "inherited mentality of black rage" is the noose around Detroit's neck. It is this perceived constant persecution and slighting that black Detroiters feel. It is, apparently, why having a almost entirely black city with complete black leadership and power is so critical to the self worth of individual black Detroiters. It is why they vote racists like BRC and JW into office and then idolize these clowns for thumbing their noses and spouting off their racist barbs at the suburbs. I counter that the unacceptable treatment blacks receive in the suburbs is less than it was in the recent past. In case you haven't noticed thousands and thousands of blacks have moved from Detroit to these same suburbs. In the great majority of instances, these moves are fully accepted by their white neighbors. These blacks who have left this fucked up acceptance of violence in the hood are finding a peaceful and safe environment to raise their children. They rarely are subjected outright racism. The change has occurred and the whites on the block seem not to care what the color of the neighbors are as long as the house is well kept and people are civil with each other. In my neighborhood of near million dollar McMansions 10% of the owners are black. The black kids fully intermingle with the white/Asian/Indian kids in the neighborhood. My next door neighbors are black and they are great neighbors. Their kids are in high school and I can't tell a bit of difference in the actions of these black teenagers versus the white teenagers across the street. They are respectful and friendly and, I presume, good and conscientious students. They sure don't seem to be carrying around this so called "inherited mentality of black rage". Maybe I am just seeing the socio-economic aspects of this lack of race rage. These well off former Palmer Park residents must have left their inherited black rage at the Detroit City limits when they moved. Based on Super-d's comments, I beleive this is a black Detroit hood issue with the hood being every square inch in the City of Detroit. I don't see this rage in the inner ring of suburbs with black majority populations. Southfield must be a black majority city now. I don't see murders in Southfield every week. Violence is so fully ingrained into the web of the Detroit psyche. It is the lack of outrage at this violence that is just as nauseating as the violence itself. I am not just talking about some young white woman losing her life to a violent black man. I am also talking about that innocent 12 year old black kid who gets picked of by the errant drive by shooting. This poor kid was 100% innocent and he wasn't breaking any of these sacred rules of the hood. It is this "rules of the hood" mentality that schackles the City of Detroit. It sucks. White suburbia in general is not racist. I truly believe we do not care what the color of someone's skin is. It is the behavior of that person or the behavior of that group that matters to us. What white majority suburbia does care about is the lack of respect for human life we see in Detroit far too often. What we care about is the lack of respect for personal property that we see far too often in Detroit. What we care about is the fear we have whenever we accidentally bump into a young black man in the City of Detroit. I care about not encitng this inherited rage that is so prevalent in this city. We also care about this overwhelming need for black political power that must never be seen to give up anything to the whites who allegedly want to take over everything. We notice when blacks slight their children's educations all in the name of keeping everything under full local black control. Detroiters don't want some rich white dude's money for improving education in the City. Detroiters want control. Suburbanites care about black political leaders who spout off racsit bullshit with little, if any, cause. We notice when Detroiters and their leaders claim the suburban racists are the only reason for a lack of regionalism in this area. All of these actions leave an indellible imprint on our minds. It is the actions, not the color of the skin, that hardens our acceptance of Detroit and its residents. I remain conflicted about Detroit. I see much good in this City. The City has undeniable treasures. I want to experience this city. I want my neighbors to visit and support the City. I want to see a vitality in the City that leads to renewed prosperity for this entire region. I see the passion for the renewal of this city on this board. I see it in some of the political and civic leaders in the City of Detroit. I see some passion in the suburbs for Detroit's revival. I am comforted and heartened by the many thoughtful, intelligent and passionate forum members I read here everyday. I am heartened when I see a thoughtful and intelligent black forum member, Lmichigan, take on the racist, hateful rhetoric of Super_d. Unfortunately, I also fear for this City, especially in light of Super_d's comments and the recent actions of BRC and her racist clan on the CC. Thankfully, this crazy racist sect on the CC may actually be a minority. Sadly, the lack of respect for human life remains far too prevalent in this City. The lack of respect for one's own personal property and and the property of one's neighbor is fully evident whenever you cross into the city limits. I see how so many of my suburban neighbors just shut Detroit out. It would be very easy to do. Inexplicably, I do not want to give up on this City. Despite these incredible obstacles, I remain hopeful and I will continue to support the City. I just hope I never accidentally bump into Super_d while I am visiting his hood. Enciting his inherited rage is the last thing I would want to do. I hope and pray that my common sense of expressing sorrow and walking away from confrontation would spare me or my wife the same unfortunate fate of Kyle Smith. | ||
Atl_runner Member Username: Atl_runner Post Number: 1844 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.98.116.13 |
Fantastic post Docmo. Very well said. All of it. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6976 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
Way to acknowledge the postives and the positive people in the city Docmo. While some of your post has some merit it is overly simplistic and as usual stereotypes Detroit as a whole. Why acknowledge the community groups and people working to improve their communities when you can so easily write off Detroit's attitude as that of BRC and Super_d. So on the surface I agree but let me pick apart your rant.
Maybe? You do realize that trivializing such a problem just adds to it. But as always it is easy to trivialize problems that are not yours.
Holy fucking stereotype Batman. How the fuck do you know what the self worth of Detroiters is. Maybe, just maybe they felt that those CC members were the best option given the talent pool was not that outstanding. Why was Maryann Mahaffey elected so many times? It is easy to dismiss everything black Detroiters do as being stupid but the constituents of some suburbs put idiots into their CC everyday.
You are incorrect. Look at the migratory patterns of blacks that flee the city. The areas they move into often see white flight. Rarely subjected to outright racism? Well as long as it isn't outright who cares, huh?
I'm calling bs on your 10%. But this speaks volumes about you 'My next door neighbors are black and they are great neighbors.' It seems to imply that you may have had different expectations. Why would you feel the need to point out your black neighbors are great neighbors. Seems like you may have been pleased to find that they are 'great neighbors' possibly implying you expected something different.
Yes, because Palmer Park residents are all a bunch of thugs. Of thats right, they were in Detroit so they or their neighbors must have left that attitude at the door. JUst shows how illing you are to dismiss the decent people in the city. The people in Palmer Park and their children are just as repectful as those in your neighborhood so they don't have to 'check' anythign at the border. This statement just shows how ignorant your stereotypes really are.
I didn't realize that we elected Super_d as our spokesman for the city. You're are showing your lack of objectivity with thoughts like this.
So you can stereotype all of Detroit as bad and all of suburbia as good. Great logical thought. I guess we are a mass of evil and suburbia is a mass of righteousness. Maybe there is a gray area and good and bad in both but it is easier to dismiss Detroit as a 'not caring ghetto' and assuming all of your enighbors are wonderful people.
Did you really just say that. Good thing I am a white man in the City of Detroit. You are safe to bump into me.
What Detroiters care about is the lack of respect towards Detroiters and their property by both Detroiters and suburbanites. Do you and your friends behave the same in the city as you do in your own home. Why do I see so many white folk running red lights downtown, pissing in public during days of games, getting drugs throughour the city. You are so fucking hypocritical it makes me sick.
Color wasn't the issue. Way to make it something that it is not. Charters are not the solution so many people make them to be. Of course you are white and live in the suburbs so you know exactly how to fix the ills of education in Detroit. Again, more arrogance showing through in your post. On the surface I agree with much of your argument but step back, re-read it and see how many stereotypes you put in there. How you only let the bad stereotype Detroit without acknowledging the good (until the end). Detroit has 900,000 people and the vast majority are good people but you allow yourself to believe that Super D and BRC speak on behalf on all of us. Detroit has socioeconomic factors that you fail to acknowledge. Detroit has a drug trade that is supported by Detroiters and suburbanites but we are the ones left to deal with the fall out. Detroit is stuck caring for the majority of the regions homeless and mentally ill. Detroit has pension obligations that are paying for many homes in the suburbs. For you to sum up the 'attitude' of Detroiters and specifically 'black Detroiters' in a perfect concise little post is ridiculous and insulting. For you to sum up the issue of racism and racial profiling by easily dismissing it is also ridiculous and insulting. Detroiters need to step up and clean up their city and take care of their neighborhoods but not all Detroiters have the luxury of being able afford a home in a community of half million dollar homes. Some are working 2-3 jobs. Some are taking a bus 20 miles for a minimum wage job. Some consider luxuries what your neighbors may take for granted. But thank you for summing up and offering solutions to all of Detroits problems and all of the regional problems in your stereotypical rant. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8246 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.54.69.72 |
Here comes the shit storm...The shit winds are blowing. | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1461 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.61.197.206 |
What a mess. The thread and the subject. You can't defend murder or racism or rage or divisiveness or racial profiling or even just being rude. IMHO, much of this thread reminds me of a daytime talk show - two groups of dysfunctional people beating the shit out of each other. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6977 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
How so? Do you think that Docmo has the right to sit in his half million dollar home and classify the thoughts of Detroiters and the ills of Detroit in such an easy manner. Remember, I said that I agreed with much of what he said but wanted to more concentrate on the idea that Detroit as a whole doesn't fit into the one nice little bucket that so many like to use. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8250 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.54.69.72 |
It's fun to watch though. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6978 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
Agreed Llyn - Regardless what happended there is no justification for a senseless murder, or any murder for the matter (unless it is real self defense). I hope they get this guy before he does this to someone else. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 67 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.19.247 |
Jt1 said "Of course you are white and live in the suburbs so you know exactly how to fix the ills of education in Detroit. Again, more arrogance showing through in your post. " Why is it that only the people who live in a particular are qualified to offer suggestions on how to help improve that area? It seems to me that many of the suburbs do a pretty good job with public education. I'm not saying they are all great but I would say that all together 99% of the suburban districts are better than the D.P.S. I think that many of the people pulling their kids out of the D.P.S. would agree. I just hope they don't enroll them on West Bloomfield or someplace that has a huge rug problem. | ||
Barebain Member Username: Barebain Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 66.208.220.242 |
Jt1- Some people felt it appropriate to praise Docmo for his post. Let me be the first to commend you on your very pertinent response. There is an important lesson I've learned: No matter how much you think you know, there is always someone else who knows something more. Find them and listen to them. Yes, the truth can sometimes hurt, but you should never turn your back to it. I guess that's why I tune in here. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2182 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
Detroit remains a very complicated place. Simple ideas of black and white, good and bad that are imposed on the city (as it exists now and has been for at least 100 years), is imo bogus. For example, consider the idea that attracting young singles to Detroit somehow "improves" the city. At BEST that's presumptious. Certainly attracting a new resident who is/becomes an illegal drug user can't "help" the city, right? Even if this person eventually cleans up her act and "says nice things about Detroit" consider how much damage her illegal drug use did to the city. How many young single downriver friends do you have to try to recruit to live in the city to make up for your small part in the vicious machine driving lower middle class/working poor Detroit families out of populated city neighborhoods? How many of your recruited friends are part of this problem? Stratch them offa yer "My Name is Earl"-step8 list ... Similarly, the assumption that there is a hard line between the NEW, attractive, redone parts of Detroit (the CBD, midtown etc) and a nasty brutal filthy criminal violent Detroit is is absolutely false. At the very least many of these areas are built on the bleached bones of this very culture. (1) consider Brush Park, forced through the wringer of focussed drug terror became a site ripe for redevelopment. In some places in city if ya close yer eyes and sniff ya can almost still smell the chlorox in the air, lol! (2) for another example consider the murder victim, written up in the paper as an ambassador of goodwill to a reborn Detroit, okay fine, but she also a witness for the prosecution to the weirdest most far reaching city corruption trial virtually any of us can recall. The same person. Wow. Detroit is a complicated place. Yay Detroit and all that, but comeon guys this kneejerk reaction shit is so f-ing stale and false I doubt you even buy it yourselves -- you're just typing it outta habit. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6980 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
I think that the city should look to find solutions in as many places as possible. The simple fact is that DPS does not succeed or fail on its own. Nor does any academic institution. The problem with Thompson's plan had to do with what effect charters will have on the city as a whole and the lcak of acountability, in the long term, that charters have. They can pull up and move, shut down, reduce services etc if the business plan doesn't come to fruition. The fact that the media played it as 'Detroit doesn't want whitey's money' was incorrect. The assumption that charters would all of a sudden add a hhuge level of parental involvement is incorrect. DPS is a reflection of much of the city and the city's ills. The thought of dropping charters into the city and poof, education is wonderful is absurd. Add in the fact that charters are businesses and have little accountability to the children, family and neighborhood adds to the mistrust. I don't care if Mr. Thompson was white, black, yellow, red, purple or any other color. Many in the community felt the same way that his plan was not the answer but it was portrayed in the media as 'black Detroiters don't want a white man's gift.' Obvioulsy you bought that spin. Taking the attitude and information of the local media at face value is a very dangerous thing. If Mr. Thompson really cared about the kids he would have worked with the schools and communities to work with DPS and the parents to get needed support for the children. His plan had a lot of holes and did not consider on going support dollars. His heart was in the right place but the plan and the intended execution of the plan was for shit. The people in DPS and the Detroiters knew that but it was not portrayed that way. | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
Jt1, Maybe my post did generalize too much. My disgust is with BRC and her supportes and the acceptance of violence as a part of the ingrained and natural way of life for Detroiters. The hood mentality and the possessiveness seen throughout Super_d's posts appall me. You can trash my post if you like. I feel it hits on some of the critical issues for this City. Sure there are socioeconomic factors involved here. I did allude to them in my post. My contention is that it is the social factors as evidenced by BRC and Super_d that have more to do with the polarization of this region than the economic factors of poverty within the City. I did not intend to trivilize racial indignity. Clearly it remains an issue in this region. I do contend that this racial profiling and inequity is by no means appropriate justification for the acceptance of violence by Super-d or the racial hate and victimization as seen in BRC and her supporters. We see this issue differently. You're way off base with my neighborhood and my interactions with my neighbors. I am incredibly fortunate to afford to live where I do. I moved into my neighborhood partly because it is a diverse community. I built a house next to an already present black neighbors because I liked the site. I am happy that all of my neighbors are interesting, responsible people. Bullshit to your statement that I am surprised that my black neighbors are good neighbors. The fact that my immediate neighbors have different cultural backgrounds of African American, Indian American and Vietnamese American is a positive for my personal community. There will be no white flight from this community. I guess I didn't focus enough on the hundreds of thousands of good people in Detroit. I did comment strongly on my respect for the forumites here who a excellent representatives for the City. Jt1, I include you in that group. Yes, I said I fear upsetting a young, black male in Detroit. Kyle Smith did exactly that and look at what happened to her. I also fear ticking off young white males. The culture of violence and the accessibility to concealed handguns does concern me. Young male testosterone, alcohol, drugs and guns does not make me feel safe. There is no denying this is an incredible problem for Detroit. Excuse me for wanting to feel safe. At least I know enough to be courteous andwalk away from any potential altercation. Your problem, Jt1, is that you want to rationalize and apologiize for the still serious issues Detroit has. The ingrained acceptance of violence seen in Super_d and the racism and persecution and victimization seen in BRC and her supporters remain a serious impediment to the prosperity of Detroit. You can rationalize all you want about Thompson's $200,000,000 gift offer. Race was involved as was the DFT and it's power play. Turning that money down, which was earmarked for the underserved children of Detroit, does not play well with me or with most of suburbia. I said that I still have hope for this City. I do. I will soon be giving a tour of Detroit to two African friends who will be staying with my wife and I and a visitor from Texas. I am taking them to the DIA and the Museum of African American History and to see all the Midtown development. Then on to Campus Martius and the Guardian. If it's a nice day we may walk the river. Detroit has many incredible features. It also has many incredible problems. I still very much enjoy Detroit and absolutely wish the best for her. Much of my passion for Detroit is because there are incredible residents and supporters who have a passion and love for this City. Unfortunately, rationalizing all the City's ills and deflecting much of the reasons of those ills to the people in the suburbs is counter productive. The people of Detroit have to begin to make the right decisions. Somehow addressing this hood mentality and the violence so ingrained with it is the only way for Detroit to prosper. It is a real cop out to put Detroit's woes on the suburbanites who are actually coming into the City. Sure, a few may come down for drugs or sex or end up in violent altercations. That is a minscule amount and you know it. We sure as hell aren't coming down with spray paint cans and defacing your property. I treat the City with respect when I visit. No different than when I am in my own neighborhood. You see my post as a simplistic, race insensitive attack on the entire City. I see it differently. I see the problems of the City with eyes wide open. I won't sugar coat Detroit and her ills. I won't rationalize her inherent, ingrained problems. Where you are absolutely wrong is with my lack of respect for the many good people of Detroit who have a passion for the prosperity of this potentially great City | ||
Atl_runner Member Username: Atl_runner Post Number: 1845 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.98.116.13 |
JT1, do you really think a majority of people don't feel this way?
Really, that is the single biggest 'perception' problem that Detroit has. The thought that even going into the city could result in any number of negative things occuring. A well deserved one I might add. Anyone who lived through the days when the number of murders hit 800 plus per year in a city of ~1 million people is going to have a slanted view no matter what kind of turnaround has taken place. Docmo's post dealt mainly in perception, and he nailed it. Your follow up is naive and defensive. While I admire the fact that you are standing up for your home, you also need to understand where these suburban perceptions are rooted from, that they are quite well deserved, and that unless there is dramatic and profound change, then these perceptions will continue to exist. As Rustic kind of stated above, the change needed is not just cosmetic. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6981 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
Docmo - The part that I agreed with you is that Detroit has many ills and needs to address them. Your way of stating however is completely off base. I do not agree with Super_d or BRC and do not intend to rationalize the issues. My problem is that the issues are there and we understand that. We hoever continually hear that those issues represent Detroit and seemingly all Detroiters. That simply is not the case.
Please explain how charters are a better option than working with DPS. Charters simply will not get negligent parents involved in their childrens education. Charters will simply not help the huge number of children with learning disorders in the city. The idea that dropping charters in Detroit is arrogance at its best. Education will only be as strong as the children, parents and neighborhoods involvement in the childrens education. The fact that you are certain that this would change the face of education and the level of accountability to the children is preposterous.
And in the same vein it appears that your problem and many others is to criticize and point out the problems while preaching from X miles away to those that deal with the problems and are working to make the place better.
That is great to hear and any exposure of the positive to visitors and dollars spent in the ctiy is great. I commend you for helping the city. What we need is help on this level but help in many other ways that aren't as pretty to show off. I would hope that the love people have for the DIA, river, Guardian building, etc. also brings some level of volunteer work in the communities and neighborhoods that need them. Showing off the best parts while greatly appreciated and needed is the easy part. Working to help people and organizations in the community is the aspect that is often left for others. Again - Not criticizing you since it is great what you are doing just challenging you to work with some of the organizations whose needs aren't as wonderful and fun.
My point was the hypocrisy that people preach to Detroiters then often treat the city differently then they would in their own neighborhood. Detroit needs to clean up its act but I expect people to behave appropiately when they are in the city. Cleaning up our own mess is hard enough, cleaning up the mess of others makes it damn near impossible. The issue isn't that Detroiters aren't responsible for their own neighborhoods and need to step up. No question about it. The issue is that I spent Sunday at the parade watching people throw trash everywhere, pee everywhere, etc when they would not act this way in their own neighborhood.
You're kidding right? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6982 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
ATL - What percentage of those 800 murders were random? The problem I had with that is the color issue that was brought up. There is a reason why so many white people stop me and ask for directions after passing many black people. The perception is rooted in very subtle bigotry.
My follow up addressed many sterotypes that he had in his post. What people fail to realize is that the assumption made by many suburbanites are not correct. There are areas to stay away from but the thought that Detroit has an even cross section of crime is one of the most ignorant assumptions out there. Funny that it is OK for people in the suburbs to make sweeping generalizations of the city and label everyone in the city as the same. Therein lies my issue. If we really want to look at perception and reality assuming that the suburbanites that you are talking about are majority white what percentage of crime in the city do you think is black on black crime. I can assure you that citizens of Detroit are at a much higher risk than people coming from the suburbs. Stay away from neighborhoods that you don't know, stay away from the drug trade and what are the percentages that you will be a victim of a violent crime. You are allowing the stereotypes that lead to the perceptions paint reality for yourself and many others. I guess that makes everything nice and fair. | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
Jt1 Yeah,I was kidding about the spray cans and you have evey right to be upset about the trash and lack of respect ftom the visitors for the St. Pat's parade. That is completely unacceptable behavior. Still, more Detroiters need the obvious passion you have to maintain and respect one's own and one's neighbor's property. That remains an issue as you stated. The fact that many neighborhoods are improving does show an improvement in this respect issue. We differ on the Thompson issue. Niether of us will change the other's opinion. It still did harm to the City as a reflection of a lack of putting children first. At least, that is the perception in the suburbs. Your arguments will never change that perception. I did volunteer for SBXL and spent 6 straight days downtown as an ambasssador. Unfortunately, I was in Kenya during the October SBXL sponsored city cleanup drive. I definitely would have come with rake, shovel and trash bags had I been around. I likely will volunteer for the Mayor's city cleanup this May. Maybe I'll see you there. While I do live miles away, I do my best to expose the suburbanites who have completely shut the door on Detroit. Just being on this forum is reflection of my interest in the well being of this City. I donate to the DIA, DSO, the Zoo and COTS. I'm really not the suburban problem, though I know I could do more. The problem is all those suburbanites who just put Detroit out of their minds and go happily along with their lives. Detroit has to give reasons for these closed minds to reconsider her. SBXL helped. An improving downtown and the planned major improvements along the river will help. Unfortunately, the culture of violence and the whole BRC thing just sets everything back a few steps. docmo | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6985 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
When all is said and done I think we see things pretty much in the same light with the exception of charters but that is probably a philosophical difference on education. Believe me I was as disgusted as anything over BRCs comments as well as the delay on the water vote for increases. CC needs to realize that their actions are an impediment to regionalism that is desperately needed for Detroit and SE Michigan. The attitude and behavior of some CC members is an embarrasment.
No doubt you go above and beyond as do many in the suburbs. Detroiters also need to step up. You have no idea how much it burns my ass everytime I see someone walking down the streets throughout the city and just toss their trach aside. Many Detroiters need to have a much better sense of civic pride. It seems to me and I may very well be wrong that civic pride has always been an issue in Detroit. Since the vast majority of Detroiters migrate here in the first half of the century we didn't see the organic growth that other large cities did. Since we didn't grow in a typical fashion many, if not most families are within a few generations of being removed from metro Detroit. When the growth occurred people did not establish the same level of civic pride since this wasn't their 'home.' I believe that led to much of the flight and other issues. For many Detroit was and still is just a place for a job but not really a 'home' since the family history and ingrained civic pride isn't there. Just a theory of mine and it very well may be absolute non-sense. | ||
Barebain Member Username: Barebain Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 66.208.220.242 |
I understand exactly what you are saying, but I have to ask, 'why?' These people abandoned all hope for the city years ago when they, and their families moved out of the city. In many cases, the reasons for these people moving were based on innacurate perceptions... perceptions that were deeply rooted in the generations of racism that preceded them. How do you convince them? Why do we need to convince them? If they abandoned the city before, would they do it again? This forum proves that perceptions and opinions are difficult to eradicate even in the most open of minds. In my experience, in arguments, mutual ground can only be found after apologies are given. So who should apologize first here? We are still a long way from where we need to be. The discussion of this poor woman's death turned into a discussion of race and society. The discussion of the zoo?... race and society. The water rates?... race and society. The schools?... race and society. Detroit vs. its Suburbs?... you get the point. It is clear that a very large gap in understanding still exists, and you have made clear that you are trying to bridge that gap. I want to ask you though, rhetorically even: when you say that 'Detroit' has to give reasons, do you include yourself in that equation? | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
Barebain, Yes, I consider myself a Detroit booster. I include myself in in the equation for why Detroit needs to sell herself to the surrounding communities. I try to sell Detroit to friends and co-workers all the time. It is often not an easy sell. You ask why Detroit should try to sell herself to those who abandoned her. That should not be the question. You have to get beyond that. Yes, simply, Detroit needs to sell herself. It may not be right, but it is a fact. Many suburbanites have closed their minds to Detroit. It would be easy to say screw them, we have our City and its treasures and who really needs them anyway. I think you and everyone here knows, though, that the City would be far better off if suburbanites did more than come down for an occassional sporting event. SBXL was not so much about selling Detroit to the world as it was about re-introducing Detroit to those suburbanites who have closed their hearts to this City for far too long. That 's what was so special about Winterblast. I volunteered and attended for three straight nights. Watching people walk around with their eyes seeing this wondrous event occur in this vibrant, exciting city of "ours". While there were many people from outside of Michigan, the great majority of the Winterblast attendees were from both the City and the suburbs. Unfortunately, Kyle Smith's senseless and violent end to her life and the crazy shit from BRC and her clan makes this sell significantly more difficult for Detroit and all her boosters. Detroit, and I will qualify this as New Center, Midtown, Downtown, Eastern Market, the Riverfront, Mexicantown, Corktown and Belle Isle are potential and real destinations for suburbanites. While these areas of Detroit clearly need residents and the businesses which eventually follow residents, they also need the transient commerce that visting suburbanites bring. Visitng suburbanites puts more people on the streets. More people equals more business which equals more taxes and improved City services and infrastructure. More people on the streets lessens the fear associated with walking around nearly abandoned areas of the City. Lessen that fear and more people will come. Yes, the City needs to sell herself. I truly believe the primary reason most suburbanites do not routinely visit the City is fear for personal safety. You have to admit there is some small degree of validity to this fear. People feel out of their comfort zones. Will I get hit up by homeles person? Will I get mugged? Will I catch a stray bullet? Much of this fear is unfounded, but senseless crime does occur and the hood mentality of violence seen on this thread only works to perpetuate this fear. The next reason is unfamiliarity. Getting lost in the crazy grid downtown, making a wrong turn and ending up in a "bad neighborhood". I hear this all the time. Many people are afraid to drive downtown. They only know one route in and out of the city. I guess this is why Winterblast SBXL was so successful. The mass transit set up for Winterblast removed this specific transit fear and the crowds of SBXL removed much of the crime fear. There still remains a small contingent of suburbanites who simply are racist and are uncomfortable being in a black majority environment. These are not the people Detroit needs to worry about selling herself to. The great majority of suburbanites simply have safety and familiarity concerns. How does the City sell itself? Just a couple of quick ideas here. Clearly, controlling the extreme elements on CC would help. Taking a strong governmental and, most importantly, a grass roots civic stance against the routine acceptance of violence. Follow the Winterblast mass transit model of bussing in suburbanites from satellite suburban centers for the city's premier events like Tastefest, the Jazz Festival, an annual Winterblast. Sell the events with media partners. We all nearly crapped our pants when we read about the Kyle Smith murder. Would the press eat the City up? Would all the feel good about ourselves sensations vanish? Fortunately, the press never really took a hold of this unfortunate event. The Laura Berman article really, though, was overdue. That young woman's family deserved some publicity and empathy for the viloent end to her life. That kind of violence is and its acceptance, as I have said, is the noose around Detroit's neck. The entire zoo fiasco has to be included in this discussion as a pivotal moment of recharging the regional divisiveness which had softened thru SBXL. I am involved with a charity fundraiser each year which has previously been held in the beautiful ballrooms of the Ritz-Carlton and the Royal Park. Right now, Detroit doesn't really have a venue which equals these ballrooms. (The Wintergarden, International Center and Marriott ballrooms do not really fit our needs) I am hoping that the BC renovation give us an alternative so that we might consider holding this 500-600 person fundraiser in The City someday. Maybe MGM will build a ballroom that would fulfill our needs. If the day comes that Book Cadillac opens for this kind of business, I will be pushing a very hard sell to consider Detroit for our business. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6987 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
Docmo - A venue that you may want to look at is the main hall at the Atheneum. It could probably hold 500+, is on the top floor and allows for beautiful views. The people attending could stay at the hotel (I ma sure they would give you a discounted rate), go to Greektown, gamble (if that's their thing) and enjoy the city. The views alone make it worth while and it ha a great set up. Just a thought | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
Jt1, I've stayed at the Atheneum for a weekend as part of a silent auction Downtwn Detroit package we won. The room was great and my wife and I enjoyed our stay downtown. There is definitely something different about walking back to a hotel room and waking up in the City versus the drive back to the suburbs late at night. Do you know if this main halll is decked out with Chandeliers and other ornamentations like the Ritz Ballroom? That is our problem with the Marriott. They just have convention rooms and we are looking for a more ornate large room. Unfortunately, I once broght up the International Center and was voted down. That was most likely the suburban bias on our committee. Most of our money comes from OC and the Atheneum just doesn't have the draw/name recognition of the Ritz. Even the Royal Park was a bit of a hard sell due to its remote Rochester location and the fact that nobody knew much about this new hotel. The Townsend ballroom is a little too small holding somewhere around 400. St. John's in Plymouth with its new hotel may fit our needs. I do really hope, for many reasons, the BC project does happen and does include the beautiful ballroom I have heard so much about. That would be a sale I think I could make. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6988 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
The room at the atheneum is very nice. I can send you some pictures if you would like. Let me know if you would like me to and I will post my e-mail I can's compare it to the Ritz as I have never been there. (Message edited by jt1 on March 14, 2006) | ||
Barebain Member Username: Barebain Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 66.208.220.242 |
Docmo, You could also check the Ballroom at the Masonic Temple. Very cool, very big room... although it is not attached to a hotel, and is kind of isolated. Perhaps it could be a chance to show some folks that the city won't swallow them whole after all. I also thought of the Athenium, it is perfect for that sort of event. Lots of chandeliers. Good luck in your search, and better luck in convincing your peers. (Message edited by barebain on March 14, 2006) | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
Jt1 and Barebain, Our event is new and maybe after we are little more established the change from the safe Ritz ballroom to a more adventurous location will fly a little easier. The next time I am downtown with some time to spare I am definitely going to really check out the Atheneum. Based on the Grand Rapids thread, maybe the Masonic may end up being a possibility if that is the new big announcement. We do need an attached hotel as we have many guests who stay for the night. Thanks for your input. | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 503 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 24.180.76.186 |
super D, You're so racist. white girl this, white girl that, "there is a deep rooted satisfaction of 'get back'" you can't see what that is???? Its right at the end of your nose! | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 504 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 24.180.76.186 |
ps. now you make me want to be racist.......and so it goes....... at least you can say you didn't start it. and thats a tiny "at least" because this involves death........ | ||
Super_d Member Username: Super_d Post Number: 767 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
It's weird how race isn't much of an issue for mainstream white amerikkka, maybe because their lives aren't at stake the same way Black lives are. More than likely their lives are not burdened and ripped by race's complex, and contorted meanings. Only when something like a 'white girls' alleged murder in the hands of a brotha'__ that's when white folk feel the crunch and the collective sense of denied justice that we(Blacks) breathe and absorb like the air each day. The single incident at Super Bowl weekend, put an end to some of the unconsciousness beliefs about race in this area__ the taking for granted the sacred boundaries between white and Black experiences. For most of you, this girl was the ulitmate example of white return back into the city', she was the pitchperson, the girl( ( dare I say white-girl ), from the burbs moving to the city to rehab and rebirth the character of New Detroit, a local ambassador--but as the news trickled down, she was not quite the success she cracked up to be--a drug addict, a hot head, and lacked respect of others__That lead me to my statement, 'there is a deep rooted satisfaction of 'get back'....................... Millions of whites each day, all across amerikkka (not just Detroit) white people are asking themselves, why feel guilty when a Black man is killed? 'We've done our part'__and 'look what the Black people do'__ and so now it becomes easier to pull back and insist that 'Black people take responsibility for their own actions, just like all other amerikkkans'-- but it's racist when a Black man feels the same way? go-figure! Of course if you are more insightful you can understand that responsibility in the Black community is a complex, and dynamic affair. Admittedly, sometimes I release some rage when I read atypical posters like 'Dormco' state with reserve and finesse, all their genuine effort to make things better, all the good-will they do and that they have worked for equality all their life, then in the same breathe become rage-filled, mean-spirited, with all there conclusions. Finally, like I stated earlier, whites on this forum, are ready to lynch the alleged perpetrator. You are simply exposing your covert forms, codes, signals, about racism. Racial mystification is certainly going to play a role in shaping the course of this alleged murder. The on-going subtle 'modern beliefs' that Black men are pathological criminals, that Blacks are beast, is the very reason why most Blacks are sometimes apathetic when it is not one of our own that ends up an unsolved murder. I'm not racist, but I truly understand the race effects the way amerikkka is shaped. Sorry! super d(motordetroit) | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 70 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.19.247 |
Quote: Finally, like I stated earlier, whites on this forum, are ready to lynch the alleged perpetrator. Response: Nobody wants to lynch the 'alleged' perpetrator. We want to first find the perp. and then prosecute and jail the perp. I think we can all agree that she didn't do this to herself. So there is a person out there who committed this crime. The only way you can make a statement like that is if someone is in custody (i.e. fireworks shootings) for no good reason other than they have a rap sheet. Quote: I'm not racist, but I truly understand the race effects the way amerikkka is shaped. Sorry! Response: Noooooooo your not a racist. It must be everybody else. At least that what you have said to yourself so many times you have actually started to believe it. The contempt you show for your country by even spelling America that way is outrageous. You should consider yourself lucky to be in a country that allows you such a freedom. | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 505 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 24.180.76.186 |
super D, yeah whites are upset a white girl was shot for telling someone to f off. yeah there is some racial allegience going on. ...but there's more fuel, 1. in the middle of the Super Bowl 2. in the middle of tight police presence 3. they haven't found anyone (fireworks shooting) you saw that and started talking like she deserved it. Like it was 'get back' for whites talking about "black on black violence" or for you now changing it to a white going back to the city, but with a bad character attached. you see, I think you picked the wrong issue to blow off your steam. yeah white people care more when a white woman is killed by a black man. Then black man kills black man. and you? I bet you'd feel more if a black woman was killed by a white man, then white man kills white man. point is you started coming back like she deserved it, cause she doesn't know the laws of the 'hood' and how to act. and you talked about the Bronx and the rules there. Then tell me this: You agree with laws of the streets, that say cussing someone out can be answered with death. You agree that this is get back (retribution) then what do you want white people to think? that you're not criminal, that you're not a beast. you see your anger at racial injustice is making you into the person you don't want whites to think all black men are. straight up. 400 years of slavery, rape and murder has made you want something different then white america, that's understandable(also remember none of that was us). But don't let it be the ugliness of the 'hood,' don't let poverty induced negativity and brutality be it. Its not something to stand upon when calling out white racisim. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 553 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.214.106 |
That is complete bullshit. The media coverage and "outrage" is due to the high profile event, not the race of the victim or shooter. The recent fireworks shooting caused a much bigger public outcry and far more media attention than the Suberbowl shooting. The downtown shooting (by a suburbanite) after a Lions game was a huge news story. Compared to the Fireworks shooting, the Superbowl shooting was swept under the rug by the media. There are murders in the suburbs all the time that don't get any more media coverage than murders in the hood. The media will make a big story out of any murder that has big names, big events, or unusual angles. I hate to ruin your media conspiracy theory, but the reality is that media coverage of murders is based on the situation, not the race of the people involved. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 416 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.160.142.9 |
Super_d's critique and analysis of Docmo's posts gives us some compelling ideas to consider but he doesn't pull off a successful justification of his first post. Just as he accuses some Detroit supporters and forumers of unsuccessfully attempting to hide their mean-spiritedness and racism behind good words and deeds, he cannot hide the plain rage and racism he feels over the level of disrespect that he perceives is directed at Detroiters. His thought provoking opinions about the complexities of race and how there only exists an alleged crime can't quite rise above the smoke screen level. No, super_d's beliefs are found in his first post. He fully believes that the girl bears substantial responsibility for her death because she disrespected the shooter. It's all about the respect. You better show it when you are on our street or else responsibility need not be taken for what happens next. It's funny though, somehow I think that super_d would not quite understand the disrespect shown to the white college boy who caps a black girl on the corner of Old Woodward and Maple after she jostles him as he comes out of the Caribou Coffee and then tells him to watch where his cracker ass is going. But how can we discount the humility and anger that college boy must have felt? | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.43.142.247 |
Nice posts, Swingline, Erikd and Vas. When I get some more time in my present hectic week, I intend to respond to Super_d and his unfortunate, warped view of life and death in the D. Atypical docmo |
