  Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 206 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
This is a Great Article - telling it like it is, but still emphasizing the good. Thank you Ellen Creager. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060305/FEA TURES07/603050304 | ||
The_rock Member Username: The_rock Post Number: 1040 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.42.251.225 |
Yes, it was an optomistic article about a rather average train-service. I wish the Gvmt would spend a few more bucks on the Chicago-Detroit run, as it's a neat way to travel ( if you have the time). The last few times I took it, I paid a couple extra bucks and bought a "first class ticket", which put you in two rather than three- across seating, a smaller coach directly behind the engine. You got a wider cloth seat, a free Chicago Tribune, $5 credit on your sandwich, and far less people in the car. No boom boxes, people sprawled out taking up three seats, nor candy wrappers on the floor. I don't know if that service is offered any more. We know Sarah Kurtz mentioned in the Free Press article. She is a journalism major at Northwestern and really enjoys her rides via the rails to and from the Windy City. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3277 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Very nostalgic for jjaba since he rode to Kalamazoo and to Chicago alot in the 1940s and 1950s. jjaba went to WMU since it was easy on the NY Central from MCS. He took the Westside buses to the MCS. jjaba remembers the steam trains. The engines looked so huge to a kid. The crack trains were the Wolverine and the Twilight Limited to Chicago. On big traffic college runs, students sat on suitcases in the aisles. At Kalamazoo, we'd see how many we could fit into a taxi, circus clown style. Thanks for the memories, jjaba. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 133 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 24.231.201.120 |
Since there isn't much parking available at U of M, I've been car-less for about 2 years now. The Amtrak has always been great if I wanted to go to Chicago, or even Detroit. Usually if I bought my tickets ahead, it was cheaper than paying for gas. Not to mention, you don't have to worry about expensive parking, especially in Chicago. The trains are late, but many understand it as being a result of the lack of investment of railroads since there are more trains on fewer tracks creating delays for right-away. It's still a good experience though. As far as comfort, I usually ride coach and find the seats to be pretty good. Definitely not like the uncomfortable backseat of the car. I rarely feel the train sway or jostle. In fact, if I leave the station at night, I sometimes can't even tell the train is moving. I usually just put on some headphones, nap, and by the time I'm at my destination, I'm well rested to enjoy it. I really think people are starting to rediscover our forgotten modes of transit. Whenever I take the tain between Ann Arbor and Detroit, there is always a decent amount of passangers, at least enough to fill all of the waiting seats in the station. | ||
Missnmich Member Username: Missnmich Post Number: 492 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.186.39.150 |
Texas Eagle comes through my town. I could board Northbound at 2 AM or so, and make it to East Lansing for $88. Wish I had the time ... | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1264 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Agreed very much, Wolverine. I do the same thing as you from time to time. The ridership is up over the last year at A2 and Detroit and most stops along that line. The statistics also say that the A2 station is the busiest station in Michigan. It's a shame that it only goes between Detroit and Ann Arbor three times a day in each direction, but the mid-evening train tends to be pretty well timed. And yes, with gas around $2.50, even a $13 business class ticket cost about the same as gas, but without the hassle of I-94. For someone to come get me from the east side, it is an 88 mile round trip. Depending on your gas mileage, the cost of gas is 10 to 14 dollars for that trip. So there ya go. For the people I know from metro Detroit, the fact that I'm taking the train-to the New Center station no less-suprises the hell out of them. To the east-coasters, our three times a day train service to Detroit seems pretty bush league. | ||
Saruthma Member Username: Saruthma Post Number: 37 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.60.160.65 |
On special occasions my wife and I will make it an Amtrak evening. We hop on at Pontiac at 4:30pm and take the train to Ann Arbor arriving at 6:11. We have a nice leisurely dinner at the Gandy Dancer (former train station and right next door to the Amtrak station), then take in a show or concert at UofM or downtown. After the show, we walk back to the Gandy Dancer for a cocktail and hop back on the Amtrak to Pontiac at 11:30pm. A nice stress- and traffic-free evening. I wish there was still a stop in Chelsea... would be nice to do the same thing for visit to the Purple Rose Theatre. (Message edited by saruthma on March 11, 2006) | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 48 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.126.174.70 |
Thanks for the memories and the story on AMTRAK in Michigan. The river rat rode the Twilight Limited so many times and had so many good times on the train and in the bar car. Met lots of nice people too. I even remember being in a minor train wreck in the early sixties (62-64?) whan a switch engine ran into the rear of my train just west of Ann Arbor and damaged a beautiful round-end stainless steel observation car. The river rat still rides the Northeast corridor AMTRAK regularly from deep in the beltway to NYC. Thanks again. the river rat | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 207 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
Following in jjaba's footsteps I too travel between school at WMU in kalamazoo to Dearborn via the Amtrak three or four times a semester. I find the train an excellent way to travel. The times seem to be convenient (though I too agree that with rising passenger counts it may make sense to add a fourth round trip), and the discounts for College Students make it much more affordable than driving. Even though I have a car here this year, I still take the train unless I need my car at home for something. Coachclass is my favorite way to travel, although Business Class (the upgrade which The Rock spoke of) is still available on 4 of the 6 trains. Cafe car service is available on all trains and most items are reasonably priced and fairly good tasting. On long distance trains with dining cars, you'd have to be crazy not to have meals there - the full meals cooked on-board to-order are fantastic! Amtrak still calls this Michigan corridor the WOLVERINE SERVICE after the old New York Central trains, and until last year, each pair still had their old names: Wolverine (351 and 350), Lake Cities (352 and 353), and Twilight Limited (354 and 355). Kalamazoo has the second highest passenger count after Ann Arbor, and they are currently renovating our station to increase services and capacity. | ||
Billybbrew Member Username: Billybbrew Post Number: 132 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
jjaba... how times change, in the 50's there were crack trains, now we have crackheads and crack whores... wistfully thinking of the olden days... | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 393 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.19.235 |
Amtrak is so strapped for cash that it can't spare the cars for a fourth round trip. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3284 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
BusterWMU, jjaba lived for four years in Ellsworth Hall, 1959-63. He was the switchboard operator at the front desk. He lived mostly in B-208. Last time he looked, it was the SID's office and they took out the phone booths and the showers on each floor. jjaba was a disc jockey on WIDR. Great memories. Glad the train tradition lives on 40 yrs. later. jjaba, WMU Class of '63. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 40 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
^^ Lived in Harvey in 2001-2002. Watched WTC fall from Valley 2 Dining Services. I used to take the train back from Kalamazoo back to my home in Central IL...used to cost around $50-60 round trip, not too bad. Tuesday this week, I'm taking the rest of the week off work and taking the train from Ann Arbor to Chicago. $45 round trip with my AAA discount. You can't beat that...leave my job in Southfield early, get to AA for the 6:00 train, in Chicago with enough time to get drinks. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8236 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.58.29 |
$45!! That is cheap! To ride from Windsor to T.O. is about $200. But then again Crown corp's rarily ever make money (except the CEOs of course). | ||
Mjb3 Member Username: Mjb3 Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.145.222.252 |
Why does Jjaba always refer to himself in the 3rd person. Bob Dole lives on... | ||
Nip Member Username: Nip Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.38.12.57 |
As someone who travels on the Wolverine twice a week, I found this article to be interesting. I agree with many of the journalist’s observations and found them to be accurate. There is one inaccuracy though, that being the so-called "72% On-Time Record". In my experience, that number is a bit high. I would say that the actual on-time record is about 45%. All in all, I enjoy the train and hope that they're able to keep the other lines running. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 95 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
the_rock--you mention "if you have the time" re: Detroit to Chicago on Amtrak. If you consider what it would take to go door-to-door (your home front door to let's say a loop hotel) Amtrak is the same amount of time as flying, and far less stressful. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1479 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Nip, They don't count as late if they are within 15 minutes of the scheduled time. btw.....I wonder how often you can drive to Chicago with a +/- 15 minutes certainty of the time??? | ||
Nip Member Username: Nip Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.38.12.57 |
"They don't count as late if they are within 15 minutes of the scheduled time. " Jsmyers, in my experience the train is usually 15-20 minutes late outbound and 20-25 inbound. Last week the train was 45 minutes late coming in... "btw.....I wonder how often you can drive to Chicago with a +/- 15 minutes certainty of the time???" I can't answer that, I take the train ;-) | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
With all the construction in Indiana and southern Chicago the last 5 years or so, I bet anything the train is NEARLY as fast, and a lot less stressful. Goat: Amtrak's pricing is tricky, and you can work your departure/arrival cities/times better than you can with air travel. For instance, I'm leaving Tuesday, coming back Saturday. If I had come back Sunday instead, the price nearly doubled. There's deals to be had. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1480 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
The biggest thing to remember on Amtrak pricing is that the early bird gets the cheap worm, especially on the weekends. Nip I dont' doubt your experiences much. When I look at the numbers, any given train seems to be on time 50% of the time, a little late 25% and too late the other 25%. I also think that the 72% on time may be looking at every station, so if a train was on time to Kzoo, and then an hour late into Indiana and Chicago, that would be 80% on time and 20% late. (Just an example, it doesn't usually play out like this. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8238 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.58.29 |
There are not really that many deals for Via unfortunately. I love taking the train and have been thinking of taking a train trip to Chicago this fall. I'll be sure to look around at the price. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 208 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Goat: Windsor to Toronto, return fare purchased 7 days in advace is $117.70 Cdn taxes in. A student can go from Windsor to T.O. for about $100 return if they purchase a Six-Pack (six advance tickets, no beer purchase necessary). - Upinottawa, Via's best student customer from 1997 to 2004. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8241 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.58.29 |
Still, $120.00 CDN compared to $45US? Lets' face it, Via sucks. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 209 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
I just checked and got a $52 dollar fare. Wow: $45-52 to go return Detroit to Chicago! I have read that Amtrak is bleeding money and is being killed off slowly by Washington. That's too bad, because those prices may be even lower than gas + wear and tear on the car, therefore making it a deal to take the train. Of course, people from Detroit can take to train to Chicago without having to a rent a car to get around. Those coming from Chicago will have to spend decent money to rent a car or on taxis in Detroit. I am sure that hurts train travel to Detroit. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 802 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I have taken the train many times back and forth to Chicago and it is by far the best way to travel there. If you take the early morning train out of Detroit you are in Chicago by noon. The way to fix Amtrak is make it a political issue. People need to write their Congresspeople and tell tell to make trains a priority. So far Bush has been trying to kill Amtrak, and Congress has put the funding back in. But the funding is no where near where it should be for a national train system. If you want a look at what train travel could be, take when you are riding the stretch of track in Southeastern MI that Amtrak actually owns. They have upgraded the signaling so you can go 90 right now, and in the future 110. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 208 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
Actually, the stretch of track Amtrak owns (between Kalamazoo and the Indiana State Line) in southwest Michigan, is good for 95MPH. They upped the speed in October, I believe. An additional incremental increase is not too far off, I've been told, to 105MPH, and then the final upgrade to 110 sometime after that. It's fun to time it as you ride the train by watching for milemarkers along the tracks, and then using your watch to see how fast your going (60mph = 1 mile every minute, 90mph = 1 mile every 45 seconds) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 803 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Sorry, I meant to say Southwestern MI. I have also done the same thing with the mile markers. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1481 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Does anybody know why the 90, 95, 105, then 110 incremements? Is it a series of incremental changes with testing in between? Can you imagine how great that trip would be if all of the NS track to Kzoo was double tracked and fitted with Incrimental train control (what allows speeds greater than 79 mph). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 262 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
A year or two ago there were temporary speed-limit signs near Stecker on the Michigan Line where the speed was restricted to 30 mph or so. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 394 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.24.174 |
I took a round trip from East Lansing on Saturday and clocked it several times at 1 mile per 39 seconds just east of Dowagiac. 92 MPH. I always look forward to that stretch from Kalamazoo to Porter. On the way back on Saturday, we plodded along all the way from CP 509 to Porter. Must've been 5 or 6 NS freights zipped by while we crawled along, stopping frequently. I breathed a sigh of relief as soon as we cleared Porter and the engineer let 'er open. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 263 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Now maybe you understand what "Who pays the freight?" means... | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 49 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.166.44.44 |
Bustermu et al talk about speeds and how to measure them using the mileposts. Back in the early 60's i would often take the NYC from Ann Arbor home to Detroit and the stretch between Ypsi and Dearborn would frequently see 40 second miles way back then as 'The Great Steel Fleet" was determined to make the schedule into Detroit. This was with the stainless steel corrurgated Budd cars built after the war and the ride was very stable with a great roadbed and track. Too bad there hasn't been any support for intercity rail in this country vis-a-vis Europe. $4 a gallon gas will probably change that. the river rat rail rider | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 264 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
My Garmin ForeRunner 301 watch has GPS and heart-rate functions. The mile-post method is so 1990... | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3289 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Livernoisyard, you are right up there with Bill Gates, III. Yup, Bill Gates moderne. As for Goat, et. al., the Canadian dollar must be considered. jjaba just called Wall Street. Your VIA train trip to Toronto is $19.95 RT, USD, and you got your OMIP just in case ole Casey runs hot around the bend into London, Ont. MJB3, yes, it's all Bob Dole's fault. (With a nod to Cass Tech. HS.) jjaba tells it like it tis. jjaba, LOL. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3290 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
FocusontheD, there were no Valley dorms when jjaba attended WMU, 1959-63. Funny story, jjaba's immigrant father called Hymes Field, "Chiam's Field." He was sure the namesake was Jewish. WMU had good baseball teams back then. We sure all can remember where we were on 9/11. What an aweful day, eh. jjaba, Westsider. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
Jjaba, ah, you're correct, but I believe they would have been under construction during your senior year, yes? Funny, my dorm didn't exist, and your dorm is now an office building. The times, they are a changin. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.171.17.254 |
I like to take Amtrak. It's not perfect, but I find it relaxing and a pleasent way to travel. It's nice to still have a taxpayer subsidized agency that actually provides a service. I'm very bummed that the train from Chicago to Toronto was killed because of "homeland security" When you think of the thousands that cross the border each day by other means, I hardly think that train was a "threat". Up here in the NW, Amtrak is the ONLY way to get to Vancouver. The border crossing on I-5 is just too unreliable. You never know how long it's going to take. I hope to someday take the train to Detroit and stay at the Cadillac. I am the eternal optimist :-) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 855 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
It was just too much of a pain with customs. I know when I tried to ride the International from East Lansing to Chicago, it was 3 hours late. It was killing ridership, because of the delays. The new Blue Water service that ends in Port Huron is much more reliable and have had huge increases in ridership. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 53 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
Incidentally, when I took the Wolverine to Chicago last week, it was 10 minutes early on the trip to Chicago, and about 10 minutes late returning to Ann Arbor...it was running later than that though, but it was FLYING between Jackson and AA to make up time. I'll take a 10 minute standard deviation...that's about as good as the airlines, and way better than driving. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 858 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I agree, I also think about the huge delays you get in driving when in Chicagoland, Amtrak more than makes up for that stress. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 67.171.17.254 |
Up here in Seattle, when you go to Vancouver, you don't go through customs until you get to the Vancouver station, so there is no delay at the border, and only the people who have issues or stuff to declare get held up. If there was a way to do that at Windsor and then transfer to a VIA train to Toronto, it would be no big deal. On the way back, they stop the train at the border, but it's usually not a long delay, because the on-board crew hands out the custom forms and explains the process ahead of time. But I know what you mean. I took the train from Montreal to NYC last year, and the border crossing was ridiculous. They could learn a lesson or two from the DHS/Amtrak crews out here. They are much more organized. But since the state of Washington pays Amtrak to provide extra service, they also have the people and resources to handle it. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 254 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Dalangdon, does the Seattle/Vancouver train make any stops in Canada other than Vancouver? I suspect the answer is no and therefore all passengers aboard the train (when it arrives at Vancouver) are international passengers. Essentially this is what an international passenger airplane does -- it stops inland and not at the border, but all passengers are international arrivals. If there are stops in Canada prior to the Vancouver stop, I suspect that the train would not pickup any domestic passengers at those stops. Unfortunately there are no international passenger trains running through Windsor. Even if one could take the train from Chicago/Detroit (are areas in between) to Canada through Windsor, all international passengers would likely have to go through customs at Windsor station. The alternative would be to split the train into "international" and "domestic" watertight compartments. International passengers disembarking at subsequent stations would have to enter customs and not get mixed in with the domestic passengers. This would be a logistics nightmare (if you have ever seen an Ontario train station). | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 216 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
Actually, there was an article in the Windsor paper maybe 2 months ago about how the city of Windsor was looking at possibly moving their VIA station somewhere else. The description of the new location was not super clear, but it sounded to me like they wanted to put it on the old MC line - the same one which would then go through the tunnel and past MCS toward Chicago. Maybe if that happened, a new joint train would be devised between the two countries. And if it doesn't stop at Detroit, people can board at Dearborn, or AA. Or maybe that's just a really good excuse to start using the MC Depot again. I'll stop dreaming now.... The International was a good train, but you're right, the huge border delays really messed it up following 9/11. The service it much more reliable now, although Canadian National still stabs them in the back sometimes between Battle Creek and Pt. Huron, and they'll be well over an hour late. As of this week through they have been running fairly well. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 256 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
From what I understand, the federal government is planning to purchase the line currently used by Via (owned by CN) and abandon that line. Via will then use the line to the South. This line goes by the Windsor Airport and leads to the train tunnel to Detroit. Since the current station is near the end of the to-be-abandoned line, a new station will need to be established. The Airport and Wellington Street (by the entrance to the train tunnel) have been suggested as locations. If you go to Google Local and then google "Windsor ,ON" you will see the CN line running along Lake St. Clair's south shore line (Essex County's north shore) and you will see another line just south running parallel to the CN line (you will also see a third line running through Essex). The line just south of the CN line will be used by Via. A new station could open the door to connecting Toronto to Chicago through Detroit. The train upon entering Detroit could back into the Detroit station and then proceed through Dearborn to Chicago. I am not sure if this is in the works. It would be great if there were US customs preclearance at the Windsor station to proceed to Detroit. I believe the whole thing will cost $500 million when said and done. There are a lot of cottage/homeowners along the Lake's south shore who have the Via trains cutting past their front yards. The CN line also divides many streets in the city of Windsor. My information may be less than completely accurate. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1498 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Interesting news Upinottawa. I've noticed that the Passenger tracks don't line up. I'm curious if the Michigan, New York, or Penn Central systems had a Windsor station. About international train travel through the straights of Detroit in the future: I don't think it makes a lot of operational sense to have a train cross the border and then continue. However, I think international train travel is a great idea! My vision includes the Detroit train station at the MCS (hopefully restored with a hotel in the tower, maybe demo'd and replaced by a new station). At least one platform would be for international trains. Before entering the rest of the station, you have to pass through customs. (Or for departures, before you get on the platform.) Trains would leave Detroit for Toronto and New York (Bufallo, Niagra Falls, or both). Commuter rail from Ontario into the MCS would also be possible, and would be valuable if there was a SE Michigan commutur rail system to connect to. From Detroit, you could transfer to trains going to Chicago, Cleveland, and Grand Rapids (at the very least). Other possible routes include: Columbus, Dayton, or Cincinnati Fort Wayne, Indianapolis Pittsburgh past Cleveland Flint, Saginaw, Midland, Bay City Northern Michigan for limited tourist trains Maybe long distance trains (like those that run out of Chicago) to places such as Atlanta or the Northeast. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.54.213.11 |
I understand the concept of international train travel. What I am suggesting is that they could have a station, either in Detroit or Windsor, where there could be a customs zone to clear people across the border, and then transfer them onto another train. Interestingly enough, Amtrak owns what's left of the concourse building at MCS (or did, at least. I don't know what condition it's in, or if it is even still standing) that, or the land it's on, might be able to be used for something like this. Of course, that would mean giving Amtrak some money, and that's always a struggle. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1499 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
BTW - what rules do trains in Canada run under? Are they generally 79 mph like in the US (as now, but not previously mandated by the federal government). I see that Windsor to Toronto is currently about 3:45. I wonder how much shorter that could be reduced through simple upgrades like double tracking and Incremental Train Control. These upgrades have the potential to cut a lot out of the slightly over 5:30 it take to get to Detroit from Chicago. I think 4 hours might be obtainable. Dalangdon, I don't think that sort of zone is needed, nor a good idea. For one, having a separate transfer station dillutes the passenger traffic that makes a train station work. Make it work just like air travel. You get off the train and you clear customs. Then you do whatever, including catching another train. For departing it is different, you clear Canadian customs before entering the train. Then you can get off freely at any stop in Ontario. If the train crosses back over into NY, then you clear customs again. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 257 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Dalangdon, I hope you don't think I was being condescending. I just wanted to establish that there are inherent problems with international travel in North American because of the general insistence that customs inspections occur at the border (rather than away from the border, i.e. inland). Air travel appears to the only stream where customs inspections occur away from the border point (obviously due to costs and the fact we would have to place international airports immediately on the border). Canada allows the US to conduct preclearance customs inspections at certain Canadian airports. For example, flying from Toronto direct to Detroit, a passenger is "precleared" for entry into the United States in Toronto prior to boarding the plane. The passenger then waits at segregated gates, gets on the plane, arrives in Detroit at a domestic gate and does not go through customs when in the United States. This could work for train travel. Likely, US customs inspectors would be situated in Windsor at the train station, and they could conduct inspections either on the train (for continuing passengers) or in the station (for people getting on at Windsor). Alternatively, everyone could get off the train and pass through customs in the station. I am not sure if the United States would allow Canadian inspectors to do the same in Detroit. The second option (the alternative mentioned above) is what happens with the Tunnel Bus (only it occurs at the border, not in the other country). When the bus arrives at the border, all passengers get off the bus and go through customs inside the building. After clearing customs, the passengers get back on the bus. If someone is detained, then the bus leaves and that person can catch another bus or be escorted back to Canada or the United States. This process could all occur away from the border (and prior to entering the other country). As mentioned above, this process is referred to as "preclearance". I am unaware of any preclearance that occurs at land border crossings in North America. I think that international train travel between Toronto/Detroit/Chicago is one of the factors in moving Via to the line that connects with the rail tunnel. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1500 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Upinottawa, I think you are missing the logical 3rd choice of having inspections in Detroit for the Toronto to Detroit train. Of course that eliminates the possibility of a direct Toronto to Chicago train. But after 3 hours or so, a quick stretch before another 5 hours doesn't seem like a bad idea. It seems to me that this model would be both more secure and quicker. Of course it could also work with customs in Windsor for a Chicago to Windsor train, but since Detroit is where you are more likely to get trains going in every which way, it seems to make sense to me to combine all the traffic at one large station. You wouldn't want to have to switch trains in Windsor, cross the border, and then have to switch again to go to Grand Rapids or Cleveland. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 258 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 70.28.0.156 |
Jsmyers, I think it would make a lot of sense to have US customs inspections at the Detroit station. However, with US security concerns as they are, the US government may not want a train arriving in the US from Canada and proceeding to the Detroit station before customs inspections -- even if the distance from the border to the station is only a mile or two. Additionally, it would make sense that Detroit trains heading to Toronto, preclear passengers through Canadian customs prior to boarding in Detroit. However, will the United States allow this? The US is very guarded about its sovereignty. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1501 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
It is less than a half mile from the tunnel entrance to the MCS. I don't think your concerns are shared with the officials. They would be more concerned about the possibility that people might leak through the system. For example, in the border crossing study, they are considering the possibility of putting ALL of the customs functions on one side or the other. They are not likely to do so for a few reasons: All of the negative impact is on one side. Concentrating the targets to one location. In fact I think it is likely that the US customs will end up in Canada and the Canadian customs will end up in the US. That way you can smuggle things to the bridge and drop them out your window before you get to customs. However, inspecting thousands of trucks is a lot different than chekcing passports, asking for about cigars, and having a dog sniff for reefer. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 259 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 70.28.0.156 |
Via's new engines have (in their terms) “a typical operating speed of 110mph.” Whatever that means. Via faces similar problems to Amtrak in that Via does not own much track and has a lower priority to freight trains. Some areas between Windsor and Toronto are single tracked -- especially between London and Windsor. However, part of that track will be abandoned. I am not sure if the other line is double tracked (if it isn't it will probably be upgraded). Also, the track between Windsor and Chatham is a bit choppy. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 260 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 70.28.0.156 |
Jsmyers, we can't assume that they will use the MCS (it would be wonderful, but highly unlikely). As you know, the current station is further away from the border. I have taken the train from Toronto to New York and the train crosses the border and then stops for customs prior to the Niagara Falls, NY station. This may be because the train is continuing on. I think it would be smart to allow the Canadian train to stop and disembark passengers at the Detroit station and have the passengers go through customs at that point. I do, however, see a security concern on the US side. Remember, the US won't allow planes into the United States from countries that cannot meet security screening standards. I suspect that a foreign train (even full of happy Canadians) whose passengers have not been through "airport-type" security will not be allowed to travel in land for a couple miles (or 100 feet) before proceeding to customs. Just my guess. I could be wrong. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1502 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
They are the same (basiclly) GE locomotives that Amtrak uses. I was asking about the speed limits. FRA rules limit speeds to 79 mph in the US unless a technology called positive train control is used. I had mistakenly called it incremental train control. That is aparently one type of PTC. http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/cont ent/1265 https://www.getransportation.c om/general/global_signaling/Sy stems/detail/itcs.asp?SMSESSIO N=NO http://www.ntsb.gov/events/sym p_ptc/presentations/02_Tse.pdf I know that the NE cooridor trains can go faster, but I'm not sure how. It may be that they are are completely grade separated. The Metroliner has been going 125 for decades, and the acela hits 150: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M etroliner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A cela_Express And what about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J etTrain Detroit may have a lot of engineerings looking for something to do in the next few years, maybe theay can work on stuff like this. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 263 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 70.28.0.156 |
Unfortunately, I cannot answer your question about speed limits. Someone out there should be able to.... | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3441 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Much to the chagrin of Lowell, jjaba, et. al, we are turning the Detroit-Windsor metropolis into a South African apartheid pass law banana republic. Some of us can remember when going to Canada to our cottage, shopping, or a Sunday ride was actually fun. Things sure got fucked up in a hurry. jjaba, those were the days my friends, we thought they'd never end, we'd sing and dance forever and a day (with a nod to Mary Hopkins). | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 218 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
The engines Amtrak and Via Rail current use are General Electric P42DC type. They have a maximum speed of 100 MPH. The Amtrak NEC is completely Grade Seperated, and that part of why they can go faster over there. The section of Amtrak trackage in West Michigan operates with a system called Incremental Train Control System, and they can currently run at 95mph. An incremental increase to 105 is coming soon, and after more test runs, the final speed up to 110mph. Even if Amtrak owned the entire corridor between Detroit and the State Line, they would not be able to do 110 in some places. Metro Detroit and places like Kzoo, Battle Creek, and Jackson have too many crossings and people. The areas near AA are extremely curvy too, which requires them to run slower. It is too bad the CASO is no longer continuous across southern Ontario. That was the route of the old NYC trains such as the Wolverine which went Chicago-New York via Detroit and the tunnel rather then the Water Level Route in Ohio and Pennsylvania. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1503 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
I think so. Remember that a plane can be piloted as a weapon. The train is at the mercy of the rails. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 264 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 70.28.0.156 |
Jsmyers: I agree with the plane v. train distinction. I just hope that your government does as well.... I think it would be wonderful if Detroit could be transportation hub -- domestic and international. I suspect that there will be Montreal/Ottawa-Toronto-Detroi t-Chicago service sometime in the next several years. I do think however, that Detroit could be more successful as a transportation hub if people could get from the train station to DTW to Downtown Detroit to the burbs to Windsor (and beyond) via reliable and effective public transit. BTW, Ontario is spending $830 Million this year on capital public transit developments in the province. If Metro Detroit ever started a comprehensive public transit system, Windsor could make a case for commuter rail to Detroit or for transit improvements that allow for easier movement of people from Windsor's system to Metro Detroit's. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 223 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
From my own observations here in Kalamazoo, it seems like the Amtrak trains have been running closer to ontime lately. Coming from the west, if the train is on time out of Chicago and at Porter where the former Michigan Central (today Amtrak) mainline splits off from the old NYC Water Level Route (main NS line today), trains like 352 will sometimes get into Kalamazoo 10 minutes early, and have to sit in the station until their scheduled departure time at 4:45 (in the case of 352, anyways). Even the westbound Blue Water, which in the past has been chronically delayed by Canadian National between Port Huron and Battle Creek, seems to be closer to on time most days, and right on time others. Nice to see and hear those horns in the distance! I've got my tickets to come home Easter Weekend. Definitely looking forward to a pleasent 2 and a half hours aboard an Amtrak coach.  | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 236 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 68.164.106.45 |
I took one of Amtrak's Wolverine Line trains from Kalamazoo back home for the holiday weekend yesterday and I must say, The Bathrooms worked FINE! Nice to see the train quite full and mostly on time. In fact, we were exactly on time until Chelsea when we went into the siding waiting for a westbound Amtrak going the other way. Also, the summer timetables go into effect across the Amtrak System on April 24. However, Michigan Services will see no change this time around. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1613 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 67.177.129.227 |
I almost took the train home for the weekend, but by the time I knew when I was going to leave, the prices where pretty high. To bad I didn't plan ahead enough. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 237 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 68.164.106.45 |
Yeah. I knew I would be coming home at least two weeks in advance, so I got a good rate. Plus my student discount. The prices seem to stay level until 2 weeks before, the go up for a week and then in the last week before travel they continue to rise. Of course, the website offers cheaper deals than going to a station or calling Julie (1-800-USA-RAIL) to buy. However, the same discounts apply across the system, for Students, AAA, and many others. Rail Sale (weekly specials) are also great deals, but they tend to sell out fast since there is a very limited supply. I'm looking forward to my return trip tomorrow! | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 467 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Sigh. Good thread. Hey, here's Ray1936 in 1939. He was actually looking for the Grand River streetcar to go to the Riviera to see 'The Wizard of Oz'............  | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 918 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I will let you know about my experience later this week, I'm taking the train on Monday to Chicago for a short vacation. All trains on Monday are currently sold out to Chicago. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 238 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 68.164.106.45 |
Here's Amtrak train 364, the International, on it's last eastbound trip to Toronto back in April, 2004. The next day, this through train would depart Toronto's Union Station for Chicago's Union Station for the last time. A few days later, the route would be reinagurated Michigan-only from Port Huron to Chicago and return, known as the Blue Water. It is shown at Kalamazoo, MI.  | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 920 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I rode the International once from East Lansing to Chicago. It was 2 1/2 hours late coming from Canada. | ||
Goggo Member Username: Goggo Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
http://www.railroaddave.com/ Some interesting true tales of an Amtrak conductor, some about the Chicago-Detroit line. The story, 'First Day', about his first day with the New York Central (in the Livernois yard) is a good one. It details running a freight through the Detroit-Windsor train tunnel. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 401 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.18.221 |
Somebody asked if there was an MC station in Windsor-- there was, near the top of the grade to the tunnel. It burned down a few years back. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 239 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
Well, yesterday's trip back west from Detroit to Kalamazoo was even better than the trip on the way in. Even though the train was Sold Out and Full by Ann Arbor, we were only a few minutes behind the schedule, and that was because of the amount of station time it took to get all the people on and off the train! The crew seemed to be really helpful, and the cafe attendent was in a grand mood. When we pulled into Kalamazoo, a bunch of people got off, but I can't remember the last time I've seen the platform so full or people waiting to get on! Great to see, and overall a very enjoyable ride. The Michigan countryside looks fantastic with all the trees budding out and fields beginning to look a bit green again. Bob - 2 and a half hours late was not uncommon for the International, especailly in the post 9/11 era. That is a good part of the reason why the cross border service was stopped. In addition, Canadian National seems to like to put Amtrak on the siding while their own empty trains scoot by on the mainline - I've seen it before. The delays are now mostly for this reason on today's Blue Water. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 792 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.209.155.56 |
A former Detroiter reminisces about Amtrak... Eating Out Removeable Feast: The Last Steak on Amtrak By RAYMOND SOKOLOV April 8, 2006; Page P6 The Wall Street Journal BRYAN, OHIO – A truck zooms past us as we lumber by fields of corn stubble. But we diehard rail passengers haven't paid 4˝ times the bargain one-way airfare from New York to Chicago to cover the same distance in 18 hours instead of two because we care about speed. I boarded the Lake Shore Limited Tuesday in New York to eat a steak that is about to disappear: a strip steak grilled by a chef in a railroad kitchen and served on a china plate. In the heyday of train travel, the diners provided passengers with a taste of the high life, and even today, a few trains still serve satisfying, even classy, meals. My breakfast Wednesday morning was fresh-cooked and delicious.  On the Rails: The Amtrak menu above soon will be an artifact of a vanished era. But on April 24, Amtrak will close down the Lake Shore Limited's chef-run galley; nearly all the rest will be gone by the end of May. Some long-haul routes have already converted to preportioned, precooked meals that are reheated and served on plastic. Amtrak says the change makes it possible to expand the menu and, since some of the new dishes can be prepared more quickly, to serve more people each night. The steak has been replaced with three new precooked beef options. Even this retrenchment, ordered by Congress in an attempt to cut losses on the dinosaur long-hauls, may not last more than a year, according to our veteran waiter, Alex. A bare-bones food-delivery system with microwave "cooking" looms, he predicts. A dinosaur myself, I deplore this devolution of the railway diner from those glory days of rolling refreshment I took for granted from 1943 to the mid-'50s. Mythic trains such as the Wolverine from Detroit to Chicago had crystal and napery and gracious service. The Santa Fe Railroad's Super Chief, an 8-year-old's fantasy of elegance made real, even had a private dining room. These trains spawned a whole romantic culture of rail travel, in movies such as "Twentieth Century" or in Mary McCarthy's once-daring story of a sleeping-car romance, "The Man in the Brooks Brothers Shirt." Now we are left with that diminished thing, the airplane-disaster film. Those of us who remember a better, slower time take to the rails. Most of us are eligible for the modest discount Amtrak gives to seniors. This winter, Sally Lesh, a writer with eight children who has spent 40 years, half her life, in the remote hamlet of Gustavus, Alaska, crisscrossed the lower 48 on Amtrak. Here she was, somewhere west of Albany, N.Y., loving the spectacle of Alex serving the entire diner by himself with the grace of an ice dancer. Tall and lanky, he swoops down the narrow center aisle with a large tray loaded with braised lamb shanks, seared catfish blackened in the Cajun manner or rotisserie chicken, all of them garnished with two vegetables. When he reaches his destination table, he pirouettes, lowering the tray in a smooth spiral until it lands lightly, and serves each person dinner, in a quadruple lutz of spinning download.  About that steak: It's a 10-ounce strip steak, corn-fed, aged for three weeks and hand cut. Yes, it is thin, but the chefs in their tiny galley have grilled it perfectly. The meat is tender and au poivre. I could have had it blackened, but why gild the lily? The baked potato shared the honors with broccoli and carrots with a sweet-and-sour flavor. To wash all this down, as we used to say in Michigan, I followed the menu's suggestion and ordered the cabernet. The half-bottle of Hahn from the central coast of California, setting of the wine-besotted film comedy titled "Sideways," was very drinkable and very Californian -- mouthfilling and friendly. It was certainly worth the $12 surcharge (as a sleeping-car passenger, my meals are included in the price of the ticket). Whoever put the menu together must have set out to link it with gastronomic traditions from all regions of the country. The desserts range from Mississippi mud cake, that flooded delta of chocolate, to New York-style cheesecake and key lime pie. For those nostalgic for the soda fountains of their youth, there is strawberry topping, whipped cream or chocolate sauce. The menu itself will soon be the only physical remnant of full-service railroad dining in the U.S. On its cover is an Art Deco-ish scene of the New York skyline with a lit-up train and skyscrapers reflected in the Hudson. Only Fred Astaire, in top hat and tails, is missing, whirling like Alex, to complete this icon of the good life that begins when the conductor calls "All aboard." Maybe it was a tad pretentious to include a quotation from the French gastronomic sage, Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin, on the menu, especially when they get his name wrong. But you have to admire the ambition of these rail guys, taking as their motto Brillat-Savarin's epigram: "The discovery of a new dish does more for the happiness of the human race than the discovery of a planet." Indiana slips by -- Elkhart, the musical instrument-making center; South Bend, home of Notre Dame. I imagine I hear a marching band and the crash of football helmets. The only real sound is the drone of steel wheels. I read my complimentary paper, slightly logy from the excellent breakfast of two perfect sunny-side-up eggs and crisp bacon with hash browns that Alex produced with his usual élan. At 10:45, 90 minutes late, we creep into Chicago's stately Union Station. I still make my noon flight, but the only food is cheese crackers. The poky Lake Shore Limited is looking better and better. But we will never see its like again, I think. In my head I keep hearing the Jimmy Buffett tune, "I ate the last mango in Paris," but with new lyrics: "I ate the last steak on Amtrak. I caught the last diner out of New York. And Jimmy, there's nothing more to be done." | ||
Corktownmark Member Username: Corktownmark Post Number: 185 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.246.27.152 |
We are taking the train to Chicago this weekend. Beats the hell out of driving even if the money is about break even when two travel. If the subsidy for train matched the road subsidy the situation would shift big time. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 924 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Just got back from Chicago and took Amtrak. Our train there on Monday was sold out, and I had the same experience at BusterWSU, packed station and lots of people getting off at K-Zoo and getting on. We arrived in Chicago on time. ON our way back last night we were late getting back because we had to wait for the rail drawbridge to be lowered out side of Chicago to go past. Overall a great trip and great service in both the cafe car and the conductors. |
