Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2006 » Patterson Opposes Regional Tax for Detroit Zoo « Previous Next »
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2385
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 129.105.104.241
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can someone please kick L Brooks Patterson in the mouth?

Zoo officials have said the money -- and another $4 million in state aid next year -- is essential to help fill a $5-million annual shortfall caused by the city's funding pullout.

They also maintain that if the zoo is to survive in the long run, it will need steady funding from a regional tax millage that could encompass Oakland, Wayne and Macomb counties, or the seven-county southeastern Michigan area.

Zoo officials said they would begin work to convince voters to approve a tax that would raise up to $7 million a year. A Free Press analysis estimated that such a tax -- if levied across Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties -- would cost the owner of a home with a $200,000 market value an additional $4.06 to $5.15 each year.

Such a tax may not be popular, Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson predicted.

"I don't think the suburbs would be interested in subsidizing the zoo without any ownership," he said. "If it were an independent authority with shared ownership, maybe. But I don't think Oakland County taxpayers want to subsidize Detroit's assets."



http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006603020567
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.216.99.9
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well now that it is under the control of the Zoological Society, this should no longer be an issue for good ole Brooks......
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why?

He completely right. No way in hell is anybody going to vote a milage unless the water tower gets painted.

Can somebody kick Detroit's city council in the ass instead?
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Gdub
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Username: Gdub

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.221.78.226
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brooks is sounding like an asshat, presuming to speak for a majority of residents of O.C., but Detroit city officials would be saying the same thing if the tables were turned.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2528
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually I am starting to think someone should kick Angry dad's negative ass instead...
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 241
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So did 70% of the DetNews.com poll online today oppose the tax also.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1303
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tear that schitt down!
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Pjazz
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Username: Pjazz

Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.212.63.169
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What haappened to the major out cry to save the regions only Zoo? It's in the Zoological society's hands now don't blame Detroit, the Mayor, or City Council. Either put up or shut up!!!
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 243
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The new plan is similar to a real-estate deal that in contingent upon financing. The $4 million was part of an omnibus bill. The legislators may not take to a new proposal. It's a wait-and-see or a wait-and-hope for some.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Actually I am starting to think someone should kick Angry dad's negative ass instead..."

What's so negative about seeing through city council?

I'd gladly contribute to making the zoo better, better by painting the water tower first and making the zoo something belonging to all the people instead of tribute to the failed ways of the past.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2387
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 129.105.104.241
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's the DETROIT ZOO. Not the Angry_dad's zoo.

Put up or shut up!
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2529
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Failed as in failed as a region? Or do you have some specific anger directed towards a specific governing body?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6870
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We won't support a tax since CC is too stupid to turn operations control over to the DZS.

CC turned over the operations? Well, I won't support a tax until is no longer owned by the city.

Liars. The people in this region are such liars it is sick. Funny how so many would support a tax if turned over to the DZS until it actually happened.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2365
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.144.85.172
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CC turned over operations with several strings attached, yet wanted state money without strings attached. Carry on...
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6871
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The state money was not offered without strings attached by the city. Besides that does not change the sentiment of the liars claiming they will support the zoo and it should be regional but managed by the DZS. That was approved now the story changes.

Carry on.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2367
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.144.85.172
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, the money was offered by the state with strings attached (transfer within 60 days as part of the transition to DZS control). The point was that the CC wanted the money w/o those strings. The "story changed" (for some) because the agreement has changed (2nd vote), in case you hadn't noticed. Carry on.
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Deputy
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Username: Deputy

Post Number: 88
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 63.115.132.100
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd gladly pay $5 to $10 extra a year in taxes to keep the zoo open. I live in Macomb County but I do enjoy the zoo. I would've done the same for the Aquarium.

As far as the ownership and watertower issues...can we just grow up. Do you think the kids who go to the zoo (whether from Detroit, Bloomfield Hills, or Sterling Heights) care what is painted on the watertower?

Keep the zoo open, fund it so that it can be maintained properly and so that entry fees are not too high for those with low incomes.

And it is the Detroit Zoo not some other stupid name that would be created to placate those in the burbs who buy into L.Brooks dividing rhetoric. The name Detroit defines this region and we who live in Metro Detroit should try to bring honor and respect to the City's name.
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Matt
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Username: Matt

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.136.149.90
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I simply do not understand how everyone in the surburbs was in an uproar over the possibility of the zoo closing. Now they're saying they wouldn't support a tax. Well if you're not going to pay to support it than shut the fuck up if it faces the possibility of closure.

Enough of this "Carry On" BS. It's getting old.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 354
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm starting think that angry dad is Brooks Patterson. More concerned about the name on the water tower than saving a regional asset. I forgot though it's only Detroiters that are caught up in stupid turf wars. Last time I checked the DIA is running well under a similar set up. But I'm sure that won't matter to with seemingly irrational hate of Detroit
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2371
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.144.85.172
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well let's have consistency all the way around. Stop all the "if they won't pay for it blah blah blah" when at least 75% of the zoo's budget comes from non-Detroiters. Also stop all this "we control it, it's ours" crap one minute and when it comes to other equally established venues/institutions some in our community play the "it's not our history", "we weren't allowed there at one time"..."so tear it down, blah blah" crap.

All of this is getting old.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's make a trade.

You may now have the Detroit Fair since it is in Detroit.

You have to give up the Royal Oak Zoo since it is in Royal Oak.

Such concern for a city that the first thing a mayor does is put a name on crap.

You know who's name belongs on that water tower?

Here's the answer for you: nobody's. Do you get it yet?
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1486
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.227.207.76
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry_dad, I think if it was a mayor that you liked you wouldn't have a problem with the Mayor of Detroit's name on the water tower. Many of the parks and recreational facilities in Detroit carry the name of the Mayor of Detroit. Did it bother you when Dennis Archer's name was on the tower?
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He's a jerk but he is right.

There is no way I would want even $5 or $6 of my tax dollars to be managed by the City of Detroit.

Regional tax= Regonal control
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Wilus1mj
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Username: Wilus1mj

Post Number: 45
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 67.149.62.53
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even though the Zoological Society is an independent authority, Brooks wants shared ownership. Let him have it....the Zoo doesn't make money anyway. I guess the land is worth something, but the zoo isn't going to move.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 355
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit wouldn't be managing your money the Zoological Society would it's a non issue.
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Wilus1mj
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Username: Wilus1mj

Post Number: 46
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 67.149.62.53
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let Oakland County own part of Belle Isle and the musuems. All operate at a loss and something Detroit taxpayers can't afford to run. It would finally help push for a SE Mich. regional tax to support cultural arts. I still don't understand why Belle Isle is not a state/Metro Park. Belle Isle hasn't improved/grown in the past 25 years.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9925
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Regional tax= Regonal control




I wish to play my plantation card now.
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2034
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm surprised at how quickly people have failed to learn the lessons of the failed Prop K effort!

Oh well.

Still waiting to hear on how a pudunk little town like Toledo can have their zoo function with something like a paltry 72% of their overall budget coming in from donors and visitors.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 539
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh come on,

someone with a 200,000 house wont pay $4.06 because the name "detroit" is attached to it??

Well, this region sure has lost the cooperation it showed for the SB
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6874
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.158.96.139
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I still don't understand why Belle Isle is not a state/Metro Park




Years ago it was an option. The last time the city went to HCMA and asked for assistance running BI and the State Fair Grounds they were told to go away.

People are already losing focus of the fact that LBP has stated that OC would not take on the zoo and do not want it. That was quickly glossed over as many of LBPs comments are. His statement that HCMA would take it over are lies but I have yet to see anyone call him to the table on it.
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

Post Number: 461
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excuses, Excuses. It all comes down to the money, power and control. Detroit give the Zoological Society a 50 year or 100 year lease Detroit. Push all these loose lips politicians into a corner and tell em to pay up or shut up! Come on You can do it Detroit.
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Brian
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Username: Brian

Post Number: 3308
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.32.217
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many folks here are going to find a way, just like L. Brooks, to criticize Detroit regardless. Its because their preferred political agenda is not in play and for some the actions from racism.
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltorivia,
For once, I actually agree with you. LBP has been a divisive figure throughout this whole zoo mess. He should shut his fat trap. I'd like to stick my foot in it. The zoo is now under the private control of the Zoological Society. I have no problem with a small increase in my taxes to ensure adequate funding of this regional treasure. The name should absolutely remain the Detroit Zoo. My tax dollars presently go to support the DIA which is managed privately but remains an asset of Detroit. Many of the people who voted in the Detroit News poll still are probably not fully aware of the management transfer to the Zoological Society or the fact that a similar funding arrangement exists for the DIA. When this referendum comes to vote, it will indicate the funds go to the Zoological Society, not the City of Detroit. Therefore, it may actually pass.

I still have two problems that may seem trivial, but they are very significant in my mind as well as many others I am sure. First, this is no longer the City of Detroit Zoo. The City of Detroit is not funding the zoo. The mayor's name should come down off the water tower immediately. If Detroit is not paying for it, they shouldn't be able to promote their mayor. The Zoo's name should remain the Detroit Zoo. When I go to the Detroit Institute of Arts, thankfully, I am not bombarded with mayoral propaganda.

The other real problem here is that the CC negotiated the provision that they will appoint two members to the Zoological Society board. I truly believe the people of this region will eventually financially support the Zoological Society, even if the zoo is owned by the City. The main thing for us suburbanites will be that the City is not managing the Zoo. Here's the problem. The Zoolgical Society board is charged to do what is best for the Zoo. Great, let's all support the Zoo and the Zoological Society. Unfortunately, now we will have two members of the Zoo board who are appointed by the clowns on the CC. Where will there allegiance lie? Will it be to ensure the present and future prosperity of the Zoo or will it be to make sure the CC continues to have some some control over the actual mangement of the Zoo? If it comes out that the City is still trying to micromanage the Zoo from within the board, the Zoological Society will never get a penny from any regional tax. This provision in the agreement passed yesterday seriously threatens the future viability of the Zoo. I sure don't trust this CC to appoint anyone of integrity with only the best interests of the Zoo as their focus. These CC appointees will probably go running to the media after their first board meeting claiming the other board members are acting like slave masters. Based on the recent actions and statements of this CC, I can only surmise they will appoint someone just like themselves. I am definitely not talking color. Of course, there should be blacks on the Zoological Society Board. I am talking about a possible CC Zoo appointee who in any way resembles the racist incompetents on the CC, like Barbara Rose Collins or Joann Watson. Don't ask me to pay for the zoo if some racist CC appointee is only looking out for the City of Detroit interests. Hopefully, Ken Cockrel Jr. can talk some sense into the stooges on this Council.

I will support a Zoological Society who has only one single agenda, that being the prosperity of the Detroit Zoo. Hopefully, this will come to fruition.

(Message edited by docmo on March 03, 2006)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6876
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.158.100.173
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Docmo - You state you are from the suburbs. Your tax dollars do not support the DIA, you very well may but not your tax dollars.

Detroit supports the DIA but no other city/county.
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2570
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correct Brian.

Anrgy D is just blowing smoke. He knows that the reality is you need cash to play, ore should Detroit annex all of the suburban malls and begin to dictate to those communities what should go down.

The illiteracy on the Warren City Council would be a great start. (its not our air port, but we want to dictate its landings, woo hoo.)

But then the culture of priveldge is a hard thing to unlearn.

As Jennifer Gratz graduate from that Bastion of academic prowess- SouthGate High. (wow) If her behind had gone to Cass or Reniassance- U of M would have accepted her, cause they were better schools.

DPS is a mess, poor kids, angry dad would say. Bullshcitt- superior academic programs in many cases, but white priviledge trys to cover this up too.

Racism is the cloud that absorbs the rays of hope that diversity brings. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid, so said Christ...but it can be masked in the fog of our own short sightedness.

Its gut check time, conservative whites, your day in the sun is dimming in the shadow of your own self indulgence. Wake up. Democracy is at stake.

What's more important- preserving Barry Goldwaters failed ideals of rugged individualism or establishing the American Values of Liberty and Justice for all for another century?

The rest of America, and indeed the world, is laughing at the Detroit Region. Yes-you in Washtenaw, Monore, Livingston, Wayne, Oakland, Macomb, St. Clair, Genesee, Ingham, and Lenawee Counties. Laugh it the Blacks who are in th core for their antics, as well as the whites for abandoning a great resource.

People are leaving Detroit- Metro Detroit, hell Michigan. Other regions with Large Black Populations have found away to get past the difference and make things happen.

And were stuck in 1967 in the City and in 1996 (before the rebellion) for the suburbs.

Get with the program. Everybody.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6877
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.158.100.173
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

First, this is no longer the City of Detroit Zoo. The City of Detroit is not funding the zoo. The mayor's name should come down off the water tower immediately. If Detroit is not paying for it, they shouldn't be able to promote their mayor.




Pettiness at its best. I agree that it is stupid to have anyone's name on it (specifically because there will be costs to change it) but that just goes to show the pettiness in this region.


quote:

I truly believe the people of this region will eventually financially support the Zoological Society, even if the zoo is owned by the City.




I highly doubt it. We all saw the overwhelming support of the arts tax.


quote:

Unfortunately, now we will have two members of the Zoo board who are appointed by the clowns on the CC.




I agree that CC should not be able to appoint these members but your 'clowns' comment speaks volumes about your attitude towards any leadership in Detroit.


quote:

These CC appointees will probably go running to the media after their first board meeting claiming the other board members are acting like slave masters.




Collins comments were out of line but at least let the members be appointed and act before you pass judgement. I guess that wouldn't be very SE Michigan like though would it.


quote:

Based on the recent actions and statements of this CC, I can only surmise they will appoint someone just like themselves. I am definitely not talking color. Of course, there should be blacks on the Zoological Society Board.




That just smacks of 'I'm not racist, I have black friends.' I am not calling you racist but your previous comments coupled with "Of course, there should be blacks on the board" seems to be a bit out of line with each other.

I agree with the overall tone of your post but it just smacks of what is wrong with this region in general.
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2571
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Docmo is again factually in correct.

The Zoo is Detroit's. The Society is Detroit's. Gail Warden is appointed by the Mayor and approved by the council. Read the charter.
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Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo

Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 3:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wrong, again Zulu--Straight from the Zoological Society website

What is the Detroit Zoological Society?

The Detroit Zoological Society is a private, nonprofit 501(c)(3) corporation that provides membership, fund raising, marketing, public relations and other services of support to benefit the Detroit Zoological Institute. A 38-member Board of Directors provides governance for the Society. Board members are business executives, community leaders, and others with a deep commitment to conservation and serving families in our region.

What is the Detroit Zoological Institute?

The Detroit Zoological Institute is the City of Detroit agency responsible for the City’s zoological facilities. Employees of the Institute are City employees and the Zoo director is appointed by the Mayor. A five-member Advisory Commission monitors the activities of the Institute.

New Chairman of the board for The Detroit Zoological Society to lead in June
June 1, 2005, Royal Oak, MI – Ruth Glancy, Chairman of the Detroit Zoological Society board, announced at a board meeting in May that the Committee on Board Succession, which she appointed last September, has successfully completed its charge. The Detroit Zoological Society Board approved the nomination of Gail Warden, President Emeritus for Henry Ford Health System, for Chairman of the Board to be elected at the annual meeting on June 21, 2005.

Zulu, the Detroit mayor appoints the director of the Zoological Institute. That is Ron Kagan. As a private non-profit the Detroit Zoological Society formed its own committee and nominated and approved Gail Warden as Chairman of the Board of the Detroit Zoological Society.

Thankfully, the City of Detroit does not own the Detroit Zoological Society. Thankfully, the Detroit Zoological Society now manages the zoo. The city of Detroit owns the Detroit Zoolgical Institute which is broke and really doesn't do much of anything now as far as I can tell.

At least the two appointees fom the CC to the Zoological Society will be a small number and will unlikely to do any serious damage to zoo operations. Granted, Jt1, the CC may well appoint two exceptional people to this post. I just have my doubts based on their recent behavior.

Jt1:

Good, you agree it is stupid to have anyone's name on the water tower. Simple solution. Paint over it. Even if it is petty.

The fact that a number of CC members spewed racist, devisive comments over the past two weeks that has markedly increased the animosity between City and suburbs has led me to my opinion that they are clowns. I will include LBP in this three ring circus. I have respect for many of the leaders of Detroit. While KK may have his faults and scandals, I believe he has true leadership qualities and may help rebuild some of the regional cooperation so adroitly damaged by BRC and her stooges. Ken Cockrel, Jr. also seems to be a man of intelligence and integrity. I hope he is an effective enough leader to rein in this out of control CC. So, am I a racist? I like and respect KK and Ken Cockrel and I do not like or respect Barbara Rose Collins or Joann Watson. They all look black to me. My issue is not race--it is their behavior and their irrational political decisons combined with their race baiting that is my issue. So, am I a racist? You seem unsure. Maybe we both are. Maybe we all are to some degree.

My bad on my statement regarding my tax dollars supporting the DIA. Only my donations do that.

I am optimistic if the Zoo really were to finacially fail the region would come to its support with tax dollars. At least I hope so.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 356
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 3:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Domoco, your contempt for Detroiters is really showing. You have a problem with the city that OWNS the zoo having TWO representatives on a board of more than 10 people? They haven't even appointed anyone yet you automatically they'll be corrupt and racist. To base your entire opinion of council on two members is asinine

As for the DIA were you aware that Mayor can approve/disapprove the Founder Society's reccomendation for Director? We all know what a mismanged shithole it is since the City still play minor role in it's management.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2374
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 207.200.116.139
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 4:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu, you or I may not like Miss Gratz's organization and its reasoning, however, let's be honest about her situation.

She did in fact have the grades, board scores, recommendations, extra-curricular record, etc. for U of M. It was simply a matter of numbers. Somebody had to get the shaft, and it was her, among many, many others. She was given the option of wait listing and declined.

And yes if she went to Cass or Ren she would have gotten in...because of the one or two extra admissions points (used at that time) given to students from certain HS. All things the same except for her race, and she would have certainly gotten in because of the 20 extra points as well.
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 4:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

eric,
My contempt for the City Council lies mostly with BRC and JW. However, seven of the council members did vote no on the original porposal and they jeopardized the $4,000,000 guaranteed from the state at that time. As the Free Press editorialized, their actions were asinine. I also have contempt for the racist remarks made by Monica Conyers and Kwame Kenyatta. We are now talking about a large portion of your City Council. Yes, I do not trust them to make rational decsions. Yes, actually having a couple of CC appointed Zoological Society board members does seem fair. My problem is my lack of trust by this particular CC to make intelligent, non-spiteful appointments. My contempt for Detroiters is that far too many of you accept the antics of BRC. You did vote these people in, BTW. You hold her high on a pedestal for failing to give into whitey. You rationalize her. You deflect her racism with your cries of racsim from LBP and the suburbs in general. I don't particularly like LBP. If I lived in Oakland county, I sure wouldn't vote for him. He is far too divisive and personal in his derogatory attcks. Either he is a closet racist or he sure doesn't think through his attacks and what racial implications me be inferred from them. Basically he shoots poorly from the hip too often for my acceptance.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2389
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 4:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metro, she decided to decline her spot. If I was her, I would have stayed on the waitong list. And please, whites still hold the majority at University of Michigan. To say that a black/latino person took her "deserved" spot is not only NONSENSE, but it is ALSO RACIST.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3273
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 5:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, and if he parents were alumni she'd get points, too. What's your point, Metro? I hate to drag us further of track, but if how can you justify taking race out of admissions, but leaving the truly ridiculous ones in, as well?
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 534
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.212.169.194
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metro Detroit, still lacking harmony.

How embarrassing when others visit or ask about it.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 3766
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.174.235
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Mayor L.B. Hitler Patterson!

If the Detroit Zoo gets a regional tax so be it. One way or another The Detroit Zoo will stay open.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2776
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How's this...this white guy thinks the City Council made the right call in rejecting the first proposal.

It left several very big questions unanswered, which meant the council would have approved something today and received the details tomorrow.

That's never a smart way to do business. How many people here have ever signed a mortgage without knowing all of the terms? How about a car loan, even?

Anyone?

Didn't think so.

The media manipulated the fuck out of the issue to play up the racial/Detroit's incompetent angle.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6878
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Docmo - Thanks for the clarification. Nothing to argue with that is addressed to me in your post 18.

I agree that BRC, Watson and LBP need to muzzle themselves at times.

I also agree that KK and Ken Cockrel have some good ideas and it seems like Ken Cockrel is growing a bit more of a spine which was alsways a concern. I'm glad we put him back in office, some others I am not happy with the voters.

Glad to hear that you are supporting the DIA. The region needs more folks like yourself that supports the arts/culture in the region.

Thanks for the reply.
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

steve:

“The symbolism is that Detroit is a black city and that we’re unable to govern ourselves. So we need an overseer, the state legislature, or what have you, to step in and tell us what we must do and how to do it. “That is a racist attitude. I resent it very much. I’m trying not to let it color my judgments, but we’re not a plantation, blacks aren’t owned by white folks anymore,” said Collins.

“Detroiters should spend money where they live,” Watson said. “It is clear there are layers of disrespect, racism and white supremacy. It’s not about getting along. Racism is a disease in this country. A lot of black folks walk around and deny it. This country got rich on the backs of black folks.”

Kwame Kenyatta called L. Brooks Patterson the "Grand Dragon of Oakland County,"

Yeah, let's blame the media for these racist, divisive quotes issued by the CC members. Remember, BRC and JW still voted against the 2nd zoo proposal. They should not be left off the hook.

Steve, I will agree that too much (the media and suburbanites in general) was made of the intial negative vote. Politicians should examine in detail proposals which are brought before them. The Detroit CC, in the end did its job, despite BRC and JW and many of the out of control residents who attended the CC meeting with demands that the City not give up control of the Zoo, even if there is no funding. There still is the issue of the unsecured State funding which was only available at the time of the first proposal vote. If that funding does not end up being secured, then all seven of the original no votes will have made a poor decisoin, even if they felt rushed by the situation. This a lot more than media hype.

Jt1, thanks.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1206
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.39
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If KK's name on the watertower is that big of an issue, then someone give Bubba a can of paint and a brush and have him take care of things. An RC Cola, a Moonpie and a few beers should be ample payment.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2777
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When did the media present the contract details (or lack thereof) in ANY of the articles or tv stories about the situation?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6881
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about they drop KK's name, repaint the tower white (no racist sentiment, just a clean space) and sell advertising space on the tower. Added income for the zoo, no pissing matches over whose name is on the tower.

Whose with me.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1241
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.220.230.150
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

A lot of black folks walk around and deny it. This country got rich on the backs of black folks.




This quote kills me everytime I hear it.

If the suburbs have to pay extra taxes then their school kids should also get the zoo discount and the zoo jobs should be open to all who apply.

(Message edited by _sj_ on March 03, 2006)
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 280
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd like to see some children's art on that tower. It would seem inviting for the zoo and would defuse the tension.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2327
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.59.142
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, that's a great idea although painting the watertower blue or with zebra stripes might be a more neutral approach. A nice chunk of revenue could be earned and, what the heck, they could even leave some space to put the names of KK and LBP and whatever other political egos need to be massaged up there too.

Maybe the zoo could also sell the naming rights to the zoo to boot - the Rock Finanancial Detroit Zoo? That move got the Tigers 66 mil as I recall.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6884
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I say the CoD sell naming rights. If we can land 500-600 MM from the oil companies I am fine with 'The city of Detroit brought to you by Exxon'
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Jfried
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Username: Jfried

Post Number: 737
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jimaz - do you really think it's safe for kids to be painting that far off the ground? they better have some good harnesses...
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2233
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 12.75.18.156
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like Lowell's idea of a zebra-striped water tower. The sharp delineation between black and white speaks to our region's perpetual crisis.

Then we could paint the name of every current and past elected official for every office in every SE MI county, city, village and township on the tower in agate type, completely unreadable from ground level. The ego maniacs could scale the the tower (sans safety gear) to try to find their claim to fame.

Me, I'll just keep paying the $74 yearly zoo membership and whatever hits my property tax bill, enjoy taking my kids to the zoo, and hope our local pols can keep themselves from screwing up the place.
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Ro_resident
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Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 153
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.85.13.248
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why not put a changeable message sign on the water tower? Then you could advertise what groups/schools/scout troops, etc. are visiting the zoo that day.

If they can do it at a Tigers' game, why not at the zoo?
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2329
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.59.142
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now if they could only move the tower to the corner of Woodward and 696 where it could be seen from the 696... They already banner the parking lot there.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 281
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Jfried:
do you really think it's safe for kids to be painting that far off the ground?




LOL! OK, give them parachutes and sell tickets as an amusement ride!
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I wish to play my plantation card now."

Come on SS. You know better.

Detroit is part of the region. I'm just saying if you pay for it through taxation someone in your area should have a say in how it is managed.

You can't have it both ways. You can't ask for peoples money and not have them want to have a say in how it is spent.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6891
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Detroit is part of the region. I'm just saying if you pay for it through taxation someone in your area should have a say in how it is managed.




10 member board - 2 appointed by CC. Do none of the other 8 represent your voice.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1243
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.220.230.150
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Only if all 10 have equal say and their are no other stipulations that hamstring the board.
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Jfre66_77
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Username: Jfre66_77

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.15.1.161
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why allow any incumbent politician in any office in any county to use the water tower to promote themselves? Why should it be their free personal billboard?

It should just read "The Detroit Zoo".

If that's too plain, paint pictures of animals on it along with the name.

Of course then the entire region would get into a heated city vs. suburbs debate about which animals should be painted on it.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2377
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.221.75.160
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltorivia, there you go again. More claims of racism at every turn. Where did I say that "a Black or Latino person took her 'deserved' spot"? My point was to contradict Zulu inferring that Miss Gratz didn't meet the qualifications and wasn't "deserving of admission". Once again, look at the FACTS, not overly emotional responses. And of course U of M is "still" majority White, 75% of the population is, what's your point?

Likewise LMich, where did I "justify taking race out of the equation"? On the contrary, I am firmly in favor of considering race, as well as many, many other socio-economic factors. Again, my point was putting the facts on the table rather than simply portraying Ms. Gratz as some kind of unqualified crybaby.

As I've said before, although I don't agree with her group and its reasoning, the change brought about as a result of this case going to the Supreme Ct. was for the best. The law school had a much better way of looking at the complete student rather than taking the easy way out (points) by the undergrad admissions. Now, they've hired more admissions reps and actually take the time to read each admissions packets.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1841
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.72.123
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a suburbanite I have to laugh at all those suburban folks who are so against the water tower having the Mayor's name. This goes back to CAY days when Young had his name on it.

The whole argument reeks of racism, not politics. Had Oakland County purchased the zoo and then put LBP name on it, there would be little or no suburban uproar.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8178
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.56.18
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why the hell doesn't is just say "Detroit Zoo" and be done with it. Does anyone really need to glamorize themselves by putting their name of a fricking tower?
There is so much more to argue about than that.
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2572
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be still and watch Docmo's arguments collapse under the weight of truth...

From Municode...

CHAPTER 16. ZOOLOGICAL PARK*

__________
*City Code reference-- Parks and recreation generally, Ch. 40.

__________


Sec. 7-1601. Department.
The zoological parks department is headed by the zoological director. The zoological parks department shall maintain and operate the city's zoological parks.

Sec. 7-1602. Commission.
The zoological parks commission shall advise the department on general program goals for the zoological parks. The zoological commission shall consist of five (5) members. The members of the commission shall be appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the mayor. The term of membership on the commission is four (4) years, and not more than two (2) members' terms expire each year.

http://www.municode.com/Resour ces/gateway.asp?pid=10649&sid= 22

The mayor and CC must confirm the appointments.
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu,
You are talking about the Detroit Zoological Institute Commission. Yes, a five member city appointed advisory Commission monitored the activities of the Zoological Institute. That is the City run entity that used to manage the the Zoo. The Detroit Zoological Society is a non profit who used to just raise funds and promote the Zoo and support the Zoological Institute.

The CC has approved the transfer of the management of the Detroit Zoo from the city run/appointed Zoological Institue and the Zoological Institue five member Commission to the non-profit Detroit Zoological Society. The Detroit Zoological Society Chairmain of the Board is Gail Warden. She was appointed by the members of the Detroit Zoological Society themselves. Gail Warden and her 38 member Commision now have the responsibility for running the Zoo. The Detroit CC will be responsible for appointing two members to the 38 member Detroit Zoological Society. Please re-read my post 18. It is very clear. This is straight from the Detroit Zoo website and was posted 3/1/06.

The City appointed Detroit Zoological Institute five member Advisory Commission no longer oversees the management of the Zoo. The Detroit municipal code was changed as a result of the CC approval of transferring Zoo management responsibility to the private 38 member Detroit Zoological Society Commission. Have I said this enough times for you to finally accept that I am correct?

http://www.detroitzoo.org/Site _Administration/Updates/Relate d_Questions_and_Answers/

http://www.detroitzoo.org/Site _Administration/Updates/Detroi t_Zoological_Society_Reaches_A greement_with_City_of_Detroit/

Sorry, Zulu, but, you got this one wrong.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 357
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.136.144.196
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Minor correction the code did not change instead the city's oversight was just absorbed or in the case the of director serves in a reduce role. This allows city to keep within the charter and give control to the DZS without putting the issue to a citywide vote to change the charter.


quote:

Under the 15-year agreement, the zoological society board will absorb two council appointees and the five-member advisory commission that monitored activities of the city agency responsible for zoo facilities, Adams says. Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick also will appoint a director from his staff to serve as a liaison.




http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060303/OPINI ON01/603030305/1008

(Message edited by eric on March 03, 2006)
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2574
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Look, son, Gail Warden is a man

picture

www.sph.umich.edu/ faculty/gwarden.html

And I know him personally, along with Ron Kagan. I doubt you can say the same.....

The Zoo Commision as Eric has pointed out is a relative function of Detroit City Government, This spin off, which has been discussed for at least 5 years now, while reducing the daily responsibilities, never the less keeps the Zoo in Detroit Control with a new arraingement. Any other change would require A CHARTER VOTE BY THE ENTIRE CITIZENRY OF DETROIT.

Again Docmo proves that growing old is mandatory and growing up is optional.

picture
Hallowed are the Ori......
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Eric
Member
Username: Eric

Post Number: 358
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.136.144.196
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you are mistaken though about Warden be appointed the mayor, the DZS is still a private organization. The director appointed by mayor/coucil will just be a formailty to honor the charter the position will have no real power. So I wouldn't say that Zoo is controlled by Detroit, but does have a voice with about 20% of the boards vote.
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 3:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Zulu, I was wrong about Gail Warden's gender and you are wrong about the City's Zoological Institue Commission being in control of the Zoo or the mayor appointing the Operational Director of the Zoo.

Get a grip, Zulu. I admit my mistakes such as Gail's gender and,possibly, what has or has not occurred with the Detroit municipal code. I never mentioned the Detroit Charter.

If I were you, I'd hire a lawyer and challenge the CC/Zoological society agreement because the intent of the City Charter has been violated. The Detroit Zoological Institute Board which is appointed by the mayor now is only a puppet of the Detroit Zoological Society. The mayor now appoints simply a liason to the Zoological Society. It sounds like fancy wording to satisfy the charter, but, in effect the City has given up control. That is abundantly clear. The only thing Detroit really maintains is ownership of the infrastructure, land and the animals of the Zoo. They will get a few spots on the Zoological Society Board and KK gets to appoint his liason. The City does remain responsible, at least for the near future for capital improvements to the infrastructure and insurance and security of that infrastructure. Thankfully for you and the other Detroit residents, the City is relieved of its former operational expenses for the Zoo. That becomes the responsibility of the Zoological Society.

The fully independent Detroit Zoological Society has full control of the functions of the Zoo including the budget, hiring and contracts. The real upshot of the agreement is that the Charter's five member City Zoological Institute commision has lost control. Your statement that this arrangement "never the less keeps the Zoo in Detroit Control" is delusional.

Call up your buddies Gail and Ron. Even they won't be likely to convince you of your errors. Admitting a mistake is something I believe you have rarely done. Even when you are wrong, you will find some rationalization to convince yourself of your infallible nature. Check out the news below. Maybe try researching a subject before you post.

Chairman Warden said Wednesday that Director Ron Kagan would become a society employee -- not a city employee -- under the deal. But he said the sides were working on language to satisfy the charter requirements.


Crains 3/2/06
Under the agreement, the city of Detroit still will own the zoo’s current and future assets, including the Royal Oak zoo property and the Belle Isle Nature Zoo.
But the society will take over management and operational control, absorbing all costs for personnel and benefits for the zoo’s 150 employees.

Detroit News 3/2/06
Under the 15-year agreement, the zoological society board will absorb two council appointees and the five-member advisory commission that monitored activities of the city agency responsible for zoo facilities, Adams says. Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick also will appoint a director from his staff to serve as a liaison.
The zoo's 150 workers will now be employees of the zoological society, not the city, and contract terms will be negotiated with the zoological society,
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Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo

Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 4:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric,
You've got it right. The City has only a small percentage prescence on the DZS board. Warden is absolutely not appointed by the mayor. The mayor now appoints a non-operational liason soley to satisfy the Charter. The Operation Director is Ron Kagan who is an employee of the Detroit Zoological Society. Zulu is way off base on this and he is starting to get on my nerves. I suspect he feels the same about me. I am signing off this dying thread. I have more important things to do than get in a pissing contest with Zulu_ dribbler.


(Message edited by docmo on March 04, 2006)
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Rasputin
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Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3512
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.206
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Well Zulu, I was wrong about Gail Warden's gender and you are wrong about the City's Zoological Institue Commission being in control of the Zoo or the mayor appointing the Operational Director of the Zoo.


Totally INCORRECT!!

By LAW, Detroit City Charter (which has NOT been amended), the Mayor controls the zoo and appoints the Zoo Director (a City employee). The Zoo Commission is only an advisory board, appointed by the Mayor. The Society will perform the actions of day-to-day operations at the "beck and call" of the Zoo Director!! All contracts must have the approval of the Detroit City Council. Now, who's in charge??

Try doing some research before you post more of that stupid "Control Freak" gibberish up-in-here!!

Black-atcha ..... watching white folks' sick "love/hate" relationship with LBP and mis-informed over-hyped (sells ads for dummies' to see) media reports of the zoo issue.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"As a suburbanite I have to laugh at all those suburban folks who are so against the water tower having the Mayor's name. This goes back to CAY days when Young had his name on it.

The whole argument reeks of racism, not politics. Had Oakland County purchased the zoo and then put LBP name on it, there would be little or no suburban uproar."

Bullshit.

It is not "racism" to say the city of Detroit wastes a lot of money on utter crap.

No wonder the city is in such crappy shape when the regular defense for any suspicious expense or boondoggle is "suburban racism".

Guess when there is no defense, go back to an issue to put up smoke.

But by the screwed up logic around this area, may as well put up signs at every border saying "Wecome to Michigan, Kwame Kilpatrick mayor of Detroit" and really piss away some money.

Because since we don't we are all grand dragons and supressed racists.

By the way, there's (of course) no racism or ignorance in wishing L Brooks Patterson got his teeth kicked in is there?
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.8.46.119
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rasputin,
Quit deluding yourself and go hire a lawyer. They used fancy language to make the city Zoo Institue commission a minimal player on the private Detroit Zoological Commision. The mayor will appoint a "director" who will only serve as a liason between the Zoological Society and the mayor's office. The mayor has nothing to do with choosing the Chairman of the Board of the Zoological Society. Gail Warden and the Zoological Society board will choose the Zoo Operational Director who remains Ron Kagan but he now reports to Gail Warden and not the mayor. Fancy language to get around your precious Charter but the upshot is the City has given up control of the Zoo operations but remains the owner of the zoo, the land and the animals. Get off your Charter kick. If you don't like it, sue the city. Good luck. That would really do a lot for regional cooperation.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2575
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heh, heh, heh.....


Docmo comes and begins to see the falacies of his argument, yet refuses to produce more proof than the Zoo's website.

He speaks of delusions and pissing matches and growing weary.

Since we have not met formally, let me introduce myself......

I am poster in the 2500+ club, which means I have been here for awhile. For the new people like you and angry dad, I have a solid reputation for presenting facts and debating them tlll the truth comes out. I frequently, "take people there" as they say, when there is intellectual dishonesty being slathered across this board.

While your passion for improving the city/region is admirable, it is shortsighted and underdeveloped at this point in your young posting life.

You will need to research more before you bring willy nilly arguments this way.

The Zoo is under conrtol of the City of Detroit, and the people elected/appointed to represent their interests. Do you actually think that the People of the City of Detroit would actually give away control over a resource that Detroiters have put hundreds of millions of dollars into? Your logic is circumspect at best.

The challenge for you is to understand and learn and grow from this discussion, or else wallow and mire in the sullen marshes of false realities.

When you argue to prove a point, you will utterly fall to the siren call of your own ego, and break against the rocks surrounding your shallowness.

When you argue to find the truth, you will rise above these dangers, and find and enlighted you.

In this discussion you were outmatched, becuase you sought to win your point, as opposed to the truth.

If you continue in this terrible direction you argument, therefore, will die the long death on this board, and be listed among the people who perpetrated the Great Lies of our time- Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, P.W. Botha, Saddam Hussien, Angry Dad, Karl.

You are wrong about the zoo commsision, you can call the City Clerk and get the resolution of Gail Warden's appointment and the Mayor and CC's approval. Or if calling a lawyer is the issue, Call the City of Detroit Law Department- they'll tell ya.

I pray that you will learn from this moment in cyberspace, because I am the nice one in the bunch, there are a bunch of posters who will not be as kind.

Take your lumps on this one, son, and move on. Or declare your services to the enemies of the truth......and prepare for battle.

Sonqoba Simunye........
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Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 3775
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.173.169
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great comment Rasputin,

That's the main ideal from this sudden transfer of Detroit Zoo control to the D.Z.S.
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3514
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.206
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Zulu, now I need a lawyer!! Can you just see the stoopidity and asininess of that statement by Docmo? ROFLMBAO ..... Let's really explore how deep his denial lays!!

Maybe this version of the City Charter will get Docmo's attention. I don't believe he's ever seen one with the Charter Commentary (LEGAL INTENT) included. It's usually not included in the general public document, but IS used by those that work with laws and have to interpret them. Go figure:

quote:

ARTICLE 7.
THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH: PROGRAMS,
SERVICES and ACTIVITIES


CHAPTER 16.
ZOOLOGICAL PARK

Section 7-1601. Department

The zoological parks department is headed by the
zoological director. The zoological parks department shall maintain and operate the city's zoological parks.

COMMENTARY

While the zoological park commission plays an important advisory junction for the department, given the technical nature of modern zoological park management, it is important to specify that the zoo director is responsible for the department's operations. In addition, placement of the authority for appointment of the zoo director in the commission injects an unnecessary layer between the zoo director and the mayor, who under the Charter is ultimately responsible for the operations of the executive branch. (underlining: mine)

Section 7-1602. Commission.
The zoological parks commission shall advise the department on general program goals for the zoological parks. The zoological commission shall consist of five (5) members. The members of the commission shall be appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the mayor. The term of membership on the commission is four (4)years, and not more than two (2) members' terms expire each year.
Mayhaps the "Control Freak" can now understand our posts. If not, still; I suggest that he hire an attorney or English teacher for a simple reading and translation!! Oh, an addendum: the Charter can only be amended by a vote of the Detroit Citizenry!! Let him figure that one out too!! In addition to the expansion and appointments to the Society Board thru the MOA!!

Ya know, sometimes I hate to upset these silly misguided MoFo's imagery; BUT, "such is life!"

Black-atcha .....
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2576
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 7:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I tried to tell him that I was the nice one, but oh well.

He still needs to understand....

picture
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 26
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Zoo is under conrtol of the City of Detroit, and the people elected/appointed to represent their interests. Do you actually think that the People of the City of Detroit would actually give away control over a resource that Detroiters have put hundreds of millions of dollars into? Your logic is circumspect at best."

So what?

Just like a car driven off the lot, what you paid doesn't mean a thing as soon as you sign your name and turn the key. What it is worth then is completely different then.

I don't care about "credentials" real or implied. Is there any doubt that Detroit needs to examine every penny spent? What the Zoo issue so soon after the Super Bowl proves that the area must run together not to the benefit of special interests beholden to certain members of a city council. The mayor's name on that tower is a symbol, not that the city owns the zoo but that the city will not join the effort to make the entire area operate as the "Metropolitan Detroit" it could be. That's the message sent and it is not racist.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2577
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just Like the water you drink, Angry Dad, it is sold to you by the city of Detroit. (unless you live in a community with its own water source)

The people of Detroit- white, black, hispanic, chaldean, polish, italian, nigerian, serbo croation, yemeni, iraqi- own the zoo, and the water. The regional cooperation of Detroit actually is astounding for what it recives in return.

Detroit has existing mutal aid for fire service with Higland Park, Hamtramak Ecorse, and Essex county in Windsor. It does not have one with Dearborn and many other inner ring suburbs.

Detroit dollars fund the Zoo, The Historical Museum, the DIA and preserve the history and culture of this region going back to the time of the Potawami, the Algonqiun, and the Iraqois. Most suburban Dollars do not.

Detroit Police work task forces with the County and the State and the Feds, yet the regional problem of drugs is defined as a urban problem when in all actuality- it is a regioal one.

Suburban people finance the drugs, guns, and prostitution in this region. Detroiters do too, but the suburban folk wish to deny their complict nature in this challenge.

People are in denial that the regional education is sub par. Detroit Public schools have in many cases, superior educational programs. But the blinding culture of white priveledge will not face thet reality that unless you live in Ann Arbor, Northville, Farmington, West Bloomfield, Gross Pointe, or Novi, you have pretty good chance of having a sub par educational system- state wide and nationally.

You, Angry dad, are not made of the right stuff. Because a real father would take a stand against crime, poverty, homelessness, all over this region. Perhaps you will repent for your dismissive ways- and the next time you see your children in what every you live say "we're going to Detroit to have some fun," you might think about that hard earned money you made going to by some weed or crack, that financed the guns that killed innocent Detroit youth.

Or perhaps, you might chastise final, you neighbor, the one in the Jaycees or Rotary or Elks Club, that leaves the meeting and goes to cruise 8 mile or Woodward and picks up a prostitue, whose habits of drugs and streetwalking terrify church-going grandmothers in Detroit, who not cower behind barred window, financed by your neighbors lack of moral fiber.

If you want to promote regional cooperation, then you might get off this computer and stop this idiotic banterint about the zoo and a name on a tower, AND DEFEND THIS REGIONAL COMMUNITY AGAINST CRIME, DRUGS, RACISM, HOMELESSNESS, AND JOB LOSS!!!

We, in this beautiful place, by these straits, have a job to do to make it viable. Are you still blinded by your own cultural bias to solve these problems? Will you put down this priviledge pedigree panderings and roll up your damn sleeve and solve some real problems?

Will you ever admit, that you have failed to defend the honor of thousands of hard-working, well-meaning, church-going, tax-paying, educated blacks people by allowing degrading comments about black people to be spoken in your presence?

Will you ever bear witness to the fact that the population of suburban detroit- white, black, hispanic, chaldean, polish, italian, nigerian, serbo croation, yemeni, iraqi, russian, etc. actually has more to gain by eliminating cold war relics like Steenburgh, Patterson, and the idiots in other counties who raise the banter of the racial divide?

Perhaps when you get to do some soul searching, no pun intended, you wont be so angry....
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2392
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well stated, Zulu!!!!! ::CLAPS CLAPS::
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3518
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's all about THEIR CONTROL, Zulu mon ami ..... all that moralistic preaching will fall on deaf "white Supremacist" ears/eyes; especially as you realize that that MoFo has multiple screen handles. His behavior ain't, at all, new!! Go figure .....

Notice how his arguments switched up to some CYA and other irrelevant bullschitt, when confronted with the real deal?? His "So What" is TYPICAL.

That's the type of of MoFo that I would speed up on if seen crossing the street in front of me; then plead mechanical brake defect, after I ran over his ass!!

Black-atcha ......
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 27
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You, Angry dad, are not made of the right stuff. Because a real father would take a stand against crime, poverty, homelessness, all over this region. Perhaps you will repent for your dismissive ways- and the next time you see your children in what every you live say "we're going to Detroit to have some fun," you might think about that hard earned money you made going to by some weed or crack, that financed the guns that killed innocent Detroit youth."


You have no idea of what you type.

Other than having a dim opinion of the obviuos mismanagement in the city of Detroit, you don't know me.

So with that said, exactly how can you make any determinations?

You can't and I'll step into your arena of turning a Detroit issue into a personal issue, you are talking out your ass. So shove your talk the same place.

The problem with Detroit is not what it is doing right, it's what it's doing wrong. And wear all the dark glasses you want, Detroit and it's current political structure is a failure.

Perhaps you should do the searching, I'm not the one trying to demonize those that don't agree with me. And from the imaginary image of me you made up, you are the one with problems. I don't care what you are. I have no image of what you could be. You won't fix a fricking thing by placing blame.

Too bad your imagination is just there for providing yourself "feel good" posts. You have no solutions. Aren't you so proud of yourself?
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3520
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Betcha Angry_dad is a child & wife abuser too ..... beats the kids nightly and makes his wife work at MickeyDs!!

What's even more ironic, that SOB hasn't been to the Zoo in the past 3 years ..... I'd betcha!

Black-atcha .....
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 28
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"

Betcha Angry_dad is a child & wife abuser too ..... beats the kids nightly and makes his wife work at MickeyDs!!

What's even more ironic, that SOB hasn't been to the Zoo in the past 3 years ..... I'd betcha!

Black-atcha ....."

So what did you put up? And lose?

Still have to wonder why the structure of Detroit politics is avoided. Or is it just like the kids that whistle while walking by the graveyard?
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3524
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you feel IGNORED, Angry_dad?? If so, GOOD!!

Black-atcha ..... smiley
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East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 535
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.212.169.194
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To summarize:

Everyone in Detroit is blah, blah, blah...

Everyone in the suburbs is blah, blah, blah...

Every Black person is blah, blah, blah....

Every white person is blah, blah, blah...
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Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo

Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.43.142.247
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu,
Again, your prescious Charter has been bypassed with the agreement. Gail Warden now has full operation control with the DZS over zoo functions including employment, budget and contracts. Show me anything that indicates Gail Warden will be appointed by the mayor. You can't. All you do is throw up the Detroit Charter. They spent the last two weeks developing legal jargon in the agreement to bypass your Charter. The mayor appointed "Director" is now simply a liaison between the mayor's office and the DZS. Here is the definition for your simple, angry and delusional mind.

li·ai·son n
2. somebody who is responsible for maintaining communication between one group or office and another

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

Zulu, I said previously that I respected your intelligence and I questioned your wisdom. Your intelligence is now suspect when all you can do is throw up the Detoit Charter which the KK adminstration, the CC and the DZS spent two weeks working the legal wording of the agreement to ensure full operational control of the Zoo by the DZS without directly violating the Charter.

(Message edited by docmo on March 05, 2006)
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2579
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry dad its obvious your lack of moral fortitude, You post have demostarted that numerous times.

Talking out of my behind? You obviously only have one song- Detroit is mismanaged. But Warren is the same, so is Romeo, etc. Thats why the overall net growth in the region is negative.

Smart white folk have said "I'm out of here", because of too much crap that is spewed by Angry Dad's in Suburbia. But lo, as more Africans, and African Americans have migrated here and settled in Western Wayne, the complexity of once homgeneous places are now "browning". Maybe thats why youre angry.

Or maybe you realized that I was right. And saw that as chapter and verse were quoted to you that gee, the Black man was right again. Angry is as Angry does.

Or maybe you just prescribe to the white supremact mentality. Your neighbor over on D19 in Howell, you know the one, with the Confederate Flag flying high.... maybe you will have the courage to go tell him to take that down in the name of "regional cooperation". Will You? Do you have the guts to? Of course not. You find it more practical to stay home from church today and curse at me online. Pathetic.....

Docmo finds that the law is not enough for him, because he refuses to seek the truth as opposed to winning his argument. Ego, then, has won over. The Charter of Detroit is the law, son. The only things that supercedes it are Federal and State law, which are silent on the zoo's operation.

Yet you scream for lawyers. But they will tell you this- The Zoo belongs to the Citizens of Detroit. The DZS will now operate it, but Ron Kagan will run the show- a Kilpatrick appointee. Gail Warden will assist and move to raise more support for the Zoo as apart of his appointment to the Zoo Commission.

The truth is some times hard to swallow.....
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Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo

Post Number: 27
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.43.142.247
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ron Kagan is now paid by the DZS and reports to Warden. The new KK appointed "director" will act as a liaison between the DZS and the mayor's office. It wasn't me who creatively bypassed the intent of City Charter. It was the KK administration, the CC and the DZS who came up with this creative position and the absorption of the City appointed Zoo board into the DZS to satisfy the legal aspects of the Charter. Again, the effect of this is the DZS now has full operational control of the Zoo. Kagan now works for Warden and the DZS.

Yes, the Zoo belongs to the citizens of Detroit, they just don't pay for or run it anymore. It is a good deal for you. You should thank the KK administration and the 6 rational members of the CC. Don't be so bitter. Try smiling once in a while.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2580
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 9:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ron Kagan's checks say City of Detroit... and his salary is paid for by it citizens. And if He works for warden...Youd better tell KK, who appointed him there.

Let see if he does Motor City Makeover and Angel's Night!!!! All appointees must.

The shell game is minor to the effect. KK runs the zoo, that's why his name will be there.... much to your chagrin.

Its ok, you'll get it right eventually.
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Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo

Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.43.142.247
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chairman Warden said Wednesday that Director Ron Kagan would become a society employee -- not a city employee -- under the deal. But he said the sides were working on language to satisfy the charter requirements.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2582
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aha, so it is true that

1) Now Kagan is still a city employee, and that
2) The City and The Zoo Society are working on language that satisfies the charter requirements, implying that the charter takes president. Zoo ownership is still Detroit's.

We can agree on that.

Now we are getting to the truth....and we are finally getting somewhere.
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Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 928
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 4:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zoo's are dumb.
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu, I don't really want to stoop to your low standards.

I won't but exactly how do you get off trying hang shit on people you never met?

The truth is hard to swallow?

I'm entitled to my opinion and you yours.

In my opinion, on this subject, you want to go someplace else. Go for it. I'm not going to stop you.

You'll never know when you are wrong when you won't listen to anybody but yourself.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6908
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

You'll never know when you are wrong when you won't listen to anybody but yourself.




Please take own advice.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2585
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's the deal angry_dad.

You may have your own perspective, view, reason rationale, philosphy, angle, or reasoning. Great.

What you dont have leeway on is the facts. You are free to expouse all sorts of misapplied propaganda, but the facts are facts.

You have been called on the facts, and been shown to bear false witness. And that is a sin.

Perhaps you will examine your own anger, and find something. What is it exactly for? because Detroit is mismanaged? Does your anger bubble over for other matters that lead to regional cooperation? Like the amerlioration of racism? the eradication of homelessness? How about the improvement of education for all people? The teaching of tolerance and the encyclopedic relationship of shared histories?

Where is your anger truly focused?

I have, in the posting debate between you and I, lain out the facts aboout the zoo, its ownership, and its leadership.

I have proven my facts. Undeniably.

Yet from you, all I have diatribes about my not knowing you.....and more cursing.

So let's step into the breech, shall we? Tell me about you, since your words don't reflect you.

Tell me about your plans for regional cooperation, and the steps to get there.

I am, as you implore, listening.

I await your answer. Curses and all...
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Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.74.30.120
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to admit the Angry_dad moniker is annoying in that angry white man kind of way. I'm picturing Michael Douglas losing it in the movie Falling Down, railing against the government, shooting up a Chuck E Cheese, etc. Get Happy, my man!

As to whether the city technically still "controls" the zoo in accordance with the charter, I don't particularly care that much. But, even if the city is not currently managing the zoo, I would assume that, as owner, the city would always be able to re-assert control at some point in the future if it had to, if things were not working out. Isn't there a time limit on the current management deal, 20 years or something?


(Message edited by Dougw on March 06, 2006)
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Ray
Member
Username: Ray

Post Number: 637
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.41.174.244
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gosh this black white thing gets monotonous. After about 3 days here in Detroit, I get headaches and need to return to California for a week. There are so many different groups there, there's not this endless fixation on black white relations.

I hate to break it to you guys, but we're both about to get bulldozed. African Americans constitue about .8% of the world's population and white Americans constitue about 3%. We are bit players in the new Asian century.

While we argue endlessly with each other about whose name is on a water tower, China stamps out 40,000 science and engineering PhDs each year (to our 4,000).

I'm having my kids learn Mandrin. Then I intend to marry them off to Chinese girls. I'm switching my gene pool to the winning team. Adaptability is the key to success. To hell with both the white and the black races. They are both losing the global economic war, and I can't stand losers.

I'm sorry. Didn't mean to drift off topic.
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Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1005
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.74.30.120
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good one, Ray. :-)
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2393
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 129.105.104.240
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Too bad the "winning " gene pool beauty-wise is Northern European women (just loook at who is walking down the runway. Where are the Asian women?)
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321brian
Member
Username: 321brian

Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray,

Thats why I disagreed with Bryant Gumbel. As long as the Chinese are competing we are all Minorities.

Run, run away fast you are too smart to be here.
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2394
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 129.105.104.240
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 1:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And oh yeah, of those 40,000 engineers and math PhDs, many of them cannot find jobs and locate elsewhere (i.e. USA). So much for staying in the mainland.
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu:

"A million lies cannot change a single truth."

I figure you still need about 999,950.

You might get there by the time the Lions get to the SuperBowl.

Maybe, you are very good at it.

Good luck.
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Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2534
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry dad smh...

Seems like a person that spends his time watchin FOX News, CNN, and discussing the positive virtues of the ill named Michigan Civil Rights Initiative...

Angry dad- remembering the 50's...
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.entertainment-geekl y.com/web/general/apr2002/Simp sonsApril28

When you can't find your demon, why do you invent him?

The messages are on the right side, not in the name.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2587
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leave him alone Dstylin. I called his bluff and he wimped out...

All hat and no cattle, just talkin loud saying nothing....
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 32
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.227.49.60
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 7:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What bluff?

I'm sorry Zulu, if I made trash up about you I would get called out, you expect different?

I could try to post a bunch of cliches but why get into your action.

You still need over 999,940 more.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2588
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.251.27.41
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To Angry Dad, I said....

______________________________ ___________________


Perhaps you will examine your own anger, and find something. What is it exactly for? because Detroit is mismanaged? Does your anger bubble over for other matters that lead to regional cooperation? Like the amerlioration of racism? the eradication of homelessness? How about the improvement of education for all people? The teaching of tolerance and the encyclopedic relationship of shared histories?

Where is your anger truly focused?

I have, in the posting debate between you and I, lain out the facts aboout the zoo, its ownership, and its leadership.

I have proven my facts. Undeniably.

Yet from you, all I have diatribes about my not knowing you.....and more cursing.

So let's step into the breech, shall we? Tell me about you, since your words don't reflect you.

Tell me about your plans for regional cooperation, and the steps to get there.

I am, as you implore, listening.

I await your answer. Curses and all...
______________________________ ___________________

I am still waiting on an answer from you AD.
Dont post cliches, post facts and well thought out answers to my questions.

If you are not just bluffing and want to get to some truth about regional cooperation....Here's your chance.

Now are you gonna cowboy up and get down to it, or are you gonna wimp out?
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 34
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What planet are you on?

You want an effort to start "regionalization"?

Here's one suggestion, rename the Zoo.

Call it the "Metropolitan Detroit Zoo"

No names on any equipment, no agenda from any politicians on how to operate it. Ownership does not belong to any elected phony, the place belongs to ALL the people. Time to act like that.

The secretary of state should issue fund raising license plates similar to what is available for universities and other "interests". They obviuosly would contain a Zoo character. Those plates would generate a donation everytime they are renewed just like the other current plates. Lord knows U of M, MSU and the other places don't need all the cash that comes their way.

Now when are you going to pony up the apology for the trash you heaped on a screen name?

Bluff? WTF are you dreaming up?

(Message edited by angry dad on March 08, 2006)
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Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2546
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

F:
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Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 356
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where everyone agrees with you (or at least pretends to). LOL
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3310
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.79
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ALL attempts to achieve what has been called regionalization has been to propose that Detroit assets become under the control of the 'region' as opposed to just under the control of the Detroit residents.

Not once has any suburban city or county asset been suggested to be 'regionalized'.

SMART has been stated as a candidate but Detroit would not gain power over smart but provide it power over DDOT and then take the millions that Detroit poors into the DDOT and instead poor it into the new SMART.

The only thing that makes suburban folks angry when it comes to Detroit is when Detroiters refuse to quietly accept the many takeovers that are pushed onto the city.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2597
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Brian. Good to see your posts.

Back To Angry Daddy Day Care.....


So lets start with the zoo. Lets regionalize it because it belongs to all the people. Time to act like it, he says.

Great.


I'm for it. Let's just regionalize the payments. After all, it only makes good business sense that if we have a shared say, we should have a shared pay.

The license plate thing wont work only because it will not raise enough money. See here how much the wildlife habitat license plate raises.....


______________________________ ____________________
Michigan currently raises funds for wildlife through the sale of its loon license plates in
addition to hunting and fishing equipment taxes. The state currently brings in approximately
$225,000 annually with the sale of its “Conserve Wildlife Habitat” loon license plate, but sold a mere
12,000 plates in 2002. This figure pales in comparison to many other states’ non-game programs,
and even to Michigan’s former voluntary income tax check-off program, which raised about $600,000
annually. The loon plate has not raised as much money as initially anticipated in part because it
competes with a wide array of special cause license plates available to Michigan drivers. With over 22
specialty license plates from which to choose, the competition for funding is fierce.

http://www.mecprotects.org/non game.pdf
______________________________ ___________________


So the plate idea is a no go, although it could be a potential source - at the expense of endangering Wildlife Habitat.

What is simpler is a tax-Angry Dad. Lets put that back on the ballot, and maybe well get some where. Are you down with the tax?

But what of the Hundreds of millions that Detroiters have paid into the zoo. How do they get that back?
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3531
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.206
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Zulu: you still bumping that simpleton's head? Oughtta be full of knots by now .... Did you ever consider the fact that he likes to be wrong and is starved for attention?? Something his parents never gave him enough of?? .... Go figure .... because that boy will never "get it"!!

Good show, mon ami ....

Black-atcha .....
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 35
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahh yes, nothing of something is better than something.

Guess who doesn't get it, an easy quarter million by his estimates and it's not enough.

Better to get nothing instead. And you wonder why Detroit is screwed up.

Wants to share the cost but keep the current inept management in place along with their ego trips. One thing you cannot argue is that the absolute worst people to manage any asset are elected "officials". You know the truth, people just do not want to donate to maintain the status quo. The uproar over the zoo isn't how to keep it the same, it's how to fix it. Team Detroit has struck out.

What has been spent is just like flushing toilet. It doesn't mean a thing. By your logic the real owners of the zoo are everybody from the last 75 years that made the place happen. Well most of them are dead, you want dead people to determine the future. It's time to go forward, not backwards.

BTW it must be true that when you have lost an arguement, the last resort is to insult the person you lost to. Thanks for admiting your defeat.
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Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2554
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and of course all the blame lies with the city right Angry?

BTW how did that meal taste?
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2612
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Inept management is a regional thing. We could go through every city, township, and county government and find inept management, corruption, and just all around stealin from the people. I'm sure you have inept leadership in your community, if I knew where you lived I could point it out for you. It everywhere.

Wouldnt you agree?

Maybe we could ask critical questions of Semocog or the Down river Chamber of Commerce. Warren City Government? They play high school politics to match their high school educations.

People dont donate to the zoo, because people arent really vested in the zoo, unless they are animal lovers.

I like Hill Auditorum ( if you know where that is) for its robust acoustics. But if it were to be torn down or closed due to maintenence costs, I would be sad but would I have the will to save it through a contribution? possibly, but would it be easier in a property or sales tax? Probably becuase it would be a tertiary thought at best.

It seem that everyone else has seen that my argument is valid and with merit, but again facts win over moreso than sentiment.

Perhaps you will offer cogent solutions.
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 37
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.227.49.60
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 7:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where's your solutions?

People don't donate to the zoo? People will donate to the zoo but not the structure that is trying to control it. You know it.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2790
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.144.190
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And the beat goes on...

And Michigan slides lower to a backwoods, backwater used-to-be place in the world.

It's not your zoo, it's my zoo!

I won't pay unless it's mine!

I want it!

No, it's mine!

Mommy! Wah!!!!
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2616
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My solution is the regional tax. Or didnt I make that clear to you?
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Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2561
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol Ham steve....
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2791
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.144.190
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu, I'm with you on the regional tax. I see no logical reason to oppose such a tax, regardless of who the f^&* owns the place.
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Cris
Member
Username: Cris

Post Number: 395
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.227.26.44
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why would anyone be so childish about a measly $5 per household to support the zoo????

Great post, HamSteve... sounds just like my two elementary school boys bickering over a toy.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2619
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Ham Steve- you and I have always been on the right side of regional cooperation.

Let there always be paczkis between us and our cities...
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 38
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.227.49.60
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry but the city of Detroit cannot impose a tax on the region.

Here's the deal, the zoo support to be succesful must be voluntary. Get it? For the zoo to be succesfull the management must have absolutely no political goals. Get that? You want a regional tax with absolutely no concessions from the current "mismanagement" and the council wanted more control while demanding charity. It's like a drunk bum demanding a higher grade of booze and while making no effort to sober up. And on top of that the members of council made sure to fling race based insults towards the suburbs while making their insane demands. It's pure lunacy. It's not racism, the council is comprised of idiots. May as well bring back Lonny Bates.

Just like the water department FIASCO, poltics became involved via INCOMPETENCE courtesy a city council.

Here is the rest of reality, Detroit is not the key to the area. It is not the majority in population and certainly not wealth. They simply (as shown by the water board actions)cannot impose their will or concerns on the entire region. Especially while using deceit and trickery as a method. As soon as the (IMO) lunatics acting as city council get their heads beyond their spincter, and stop playing games, this area can progress and improve.

Now on another subject, Zulu you took the time to slander me on this thread. I believe I showed paitence waiting for you issue a well deserved apology. Your slander was not predicated by any such action from me. So where is that apology? You seem to have put up a good front but fair is fair. C'mon Zulu, I asked you nice to be a man. Or is that beyond you? By the way, here's your chance to prove my impression of you as wrong.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2795
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.144.190
Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll make this very easy for you, Angry_dad.

Show me an example of

quote:

the current "mismanagement"


at the zoo.

Be sure to use your excellent reading comprehension skills and focus your answer on the zoo management.

You will be given no points for criticizing the water department, police department or Hart Plaza.

Simply the zoo.
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Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 209.114.251.65
Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think it's fair to say the zoo is mismanaged. I think that it is fair to say that the people running the zoo have a political agenda that may not be consitent with an efficiently run zoo.

CC is concerned with the residence of the zoo's employees, they want minority status and residency to be factors considered when awarding contracts, and they are generally friendly to unions.

Taken in the most favorable light, these concerns may be valid. Maybe it is even admirable that they are trying to, in their mind, protect their constituents.

But it is true that all of these concerns reflect an aggenda beyond the zoo. If all you are concerned about is running the most efficient successful zoo possible, then these concerns are not your priorities.

This will remain an ongoing issue because people will not be as likely to support a zoo where they sense the dollars are not being spent efficiently.

BTW, my .02 regarding the water tower is that the name should remain the Detroit Zoo. That is how the Zoo is known throughout the Country. It would be silly to change the name in the same way that it would be silly to change the Detroit Pistons to the Auburn Hills Pistons. I do not, however, feel that the Mayor's name needs to be on the water tower. This has always seemed a little silly if for no other reason than you know that it will have to be repainted someday and that costs $$$$.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2623
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, your impression of me is 100% correct.

I fought your idiotic rhetoric with facts, and the consensus is that your logic is seriously flawed.

I asked for countless rational, logical approaches and recived more banter....and lots of cursing.

I will not abide such a dismissive diatribe against the good and fair citizens of Detroit and who they choose to elect.

I will not entertain apologies in response to such postings.

It is beneath my honor and dignity.
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 40
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote from Zulu:

"You, Angry dad, are not made of the right stuff. Because a real father would take a stand against crime, poverty, homelessness, all over this region. Perhaps you will repent for your dismissive ways- and the next time you see your children in what every you live say "we're going to Detroit to have some fun," you might think about that hard earned money you made going to by some weed or crack, that financed the guns that killed innocent Detroit youth."


Yep, there's a great deal of "dignity" posting stuff like that because "you" don't agree with him.



(Message edited by angry dad on March 12, 2006)
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2630
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well you never did man up to it. Did you?

No stand aginst crime...
No stand against povery....
No stand against homelessness....

Still waiting on substance from the Pugilist Poppa...
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321brian
Member
Username: 321brian

Post Number: 48
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the zoo itself is mismanaged either. I think the Zoological Society does a good job.

I think an arrangement should be made for the city to retain ownership and the Society to pay $1 rent for the next 25-50 years. With a board of directors made up of politicans and business leaders from Detroit, Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties.

With that type of structure in place I think a regional tax would be widely accepted.

I think the Zoo is being used as a pawn by the C.C. and L.B.P. They want to see how the residents of the city and suburbs will react to their rhetoric.

Who cares whos' name is on the tower. It looks fine as it is. Unless someone wants to sponsor it. Then the Kwames name will be replaced by the sponsors for a year. As long as the lettering is no bigger than it is now.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2797
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry Dad, don't forget to give us some examples of the zoo's mismanagement.

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