  Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
just passes the old stadium and there are 20 or so men out front walking a picket line. anyone know whats up? | |||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 670 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 209.104.146.146 |
"old stadium?" | |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 4 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
yes, the old stadium. i'm walking over in a few to get the scoop. | |||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.42.176.123 |
Are you referring to Tiger Stadium? I think that's what you're talking about? | |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
yes. tiger stadium. | |||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 791 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
probably those bastard window glaziers again! (just kidding) | |||
Audible_nectar Member Username: Audible_nectar Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 12.214.103.152 |
I'll bet it's something to do with the prep for the "Bud Bowl" events being held in Tiger Stadium for Super Bowl weekend. Maybe using non-union help or something? | |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 6 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
It's the Michigan Regional Council of Carpenters that are picketing. They ( unclear on who "they" are) hired non-union workers for the upcoming Bud Bowl. Fox 2 News was there along with 3 Detroit Police Department vehicles. And as a bonus.. there is also a giant inflated rat at the Trumbull / service drive corner. | |||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1193 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Keep on making Detroit look bad, everyone is doing a hell of a job. The NFL store gets robbed, picketers at events furthering the Detroit and its lazy union members talk. | |||
Wmuchris Member Username: Wmuchris Post Number: 156 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.58.36.2 |
NFL store robbed? Didn't hear about that one. Damn. | |||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2207 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.19.101 |
Sure it's the carpenters picketing? It might be low-paid homeless folks standing in for the carpenters while the carpenters are busy on other jobs. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/B IZ/601250336/1001 | |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
I don't know.... All these guys had on Carharts, mustaches and camo baseball hats. The parking lot at Brooks Lumber was filled with new pickup trucks with bumper stickers like "get hammered with a carpenter" and "my other truck is a bigger truck" I think these guys are hammer swingers. | |||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1531 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.164.127 |
Is the union motto do as I say not as I do. | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 113 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
The amount of anti-union vile on these pages is surprising. The contributions of organized labor to the growth and development of this city is too easily dismissed by stale and tenuous arguments about "lazy overpaid workers," It's likely that many of these shots are being taken by people who either forgot or refuse to aknowledge the impact of the labor movement on their own families. The same movement, jobs, and just wages that established generations of middle class Detroiters. Today's labor movement is not immune from criticism, but it does deserve respectful discourse because of its very significant history. Blatant and unsubstantiated vile is simply not fair and makes Detroit look worse, _sj_, than a few carpenters exercising their constitutional rights. (Message edited by peanut_breath on January 27, 2006) | |||
623kraw Member Username: 623kraw Post Number: 753 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.224.200 |
They could be protesting Tiger Stadium demolition - (yeah, right - hammer that schitt down, per RASPUTIN order) then hop into your truck and fire up a Marlboro, sit back and wonder why everyone's unemployed... | |||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 74 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
This is just another indication to the outside world that Detroit, and Michigan generally, are not friendly to business. PB: What "anti-union vile" are you talking about? One post used the word "lazy". That is not vile in my book. I think you said it best when you said, "(t)oday's labor movement is not immune from criticism...." Amen. | |||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1195 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
And post used the word lazy becuase that is the stigma attached to union workers from Michigan in the eyes of the rest of the country. | |||
Atl_runner Member Username: Atl_runner Post Number: 1797 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.209.118.72 |
There is a monument to Labor in Hart Plaza. Just like there is a Monument to Abraham Lincoln in Washington DC. He's dead, so are Unions. | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 114 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
Spartacus, do a search on this forum for a thread on this topic and you'll see that the "vile" I speak of is more than a single post. Your response lacks any information regarding this incident. It may not be evident on these pages, but the "outside world" you refer to does not view the image of Detroit exclusively through the lens of a right wing agenda. If critique of organized labor is what you intend, make a plausible argument with a little more substance than a need to be "friendly to business." Many of these same businesses were responsible for brutal violence, and exploitation in response to workers attempting to organize. The same "freedom" the right is so quick to use to justify war, is being exercised right now by men with picket signs. | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6559 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
P_B - I will apologize to our union janitor that was sleeping in the bathroom stall today. Obviously he was just tired from working his ass off. I will also apologize to the union guy that was getting stoned at lunch. Maybe it's medicinal. While I do not mean to say that this is typical for all unions but as great as unions were back in the day they are really hurting the state of michigan and the city of Detroit. If I'm a developer I would love to pay an extra 30-40% for mandated union labor in the city. I know that would have me running to develop in Detroit. Unions have abused their powers and have pushed much of their expensive lifestyle onto consumers. So tell me why an uneducated, mildly skilled worker deserves wages that allow them to buy a vacation cottage, boats, jet skis, 2 huge new cars and be protected regardless of their actions. One effect that unions have had on this region is that they essentially sucked the entrepenuarial (sp?) spirit out of Michigan. After decades of dependence on unions and high paying factory jobs we have had a couple generations that have never even considered anything but. There is a coorelation with the dependancy upon union jobs and the lack of new business growth. Just my 2 cents. Union are still needed to ensure that workers are working in a safe environement and can earn a decent wage but the idea of unions has been bastardized to feed a "Me, Me, Me" mentality. I have seen so much abuse and protection from unions I may be skewed but I think they have abused their powers to the point that they have made themselves a bigger burden than anything. But as long as they keep fighting against concessions they will keep losing jobs. I ask you to think of the US economy. Now think about which states are suffering and their union mentality vesus other states. It's not a coincidence. | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6560 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
To add - I am not in support of everything done by larger corporations. The cuts that Delphi proposed were absolutely despicable. | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 115 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
ATL, dead is also the Donovan/Motown building, and you can see the amount of passion and discourse this caused. This is because of the historical significance of the building. My frustration rests in the fact that the history of the labor movement is so often dismissed in this forum. The Labor Legacy monument in Hart Plaza and the Lincoln Memorial represent so much more that two "dead things." Your analogy is childish, disrespectful, and ill-thought out | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6562 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
One more thing to add: I think that most union workers are hard workers. The issue is that the union blindly supports the deal weight that needs to go such as the sleeping janitor and stoner referenced above. | |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
wonder what these fellahs thought about unions
| |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 9 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
sorry, first time trying to include an image. will this go in my DetroitYES file? If so... " I WANNA SEE MY UNION MAN" | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 116 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
Jt1, I'm not asking you to apologize to the handful of bad workers you witnessed on their jobs, just as I'm not asking you to apologize for the handful of corporate executives who pilfer their employees' pensions and defraud investers. I'm asking you to back up your argument that unskilled, undereducated, lazy stoners and the unions that allegedly represent them are responsible for the state of economics in this state and in this city. As much as you might want to believe, you are not a victim here. Be thankful that your education, skills, and apparent astute knowledge about the complexities of Labor/Management relations on the state of economics has given you an opportunity to work a job that doesn't involve swinging a hammer or mopping up piss. Also be thankful that this job provides you the ability to continue your investigation into pot smoking workers, their union status, and the assets they possess. I'm impressed. With the conclusions you've made, you must have spent some serious time researching the financial well being of today's union members. While you're at it, give me some research about how easy it is to land one of these factory jobs you speak of, without moving to China. Maybe you can ask your janitor friend during his next nap. You might even get an invite to his summer cottage. | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6564 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
No way in hell could I or would I stick up for these types either | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 117 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
Mr. French, I don't get it? | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6565 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
Never have I stated that I am the victim. How incolved do you want me to get in the coorelation between union based economies and the economy of those respective states. Since you are going to take a condescending approach I would like to know how much detail will satisfy you.
Seeing as it is my family I guess the research doesn;t have to go too far.
I worked those jobs for many years at a wage that was in line with my skills. Never did I have protection or was I getting pay that would allow me to live a comfortable lifestyle.
The funny thing is there is no research necessaty. KNowing who is snoring in the stall next to you and seeing a person getting stoned in the parking lot as you go out to lunch is not investigative research. It does however make one wonder what else is being done if this is out in the open. Maybe it is a case of a couple bad apples but it doesn't change the fact that the union would support them regardless of their actions.
It is not easy as they are all leaving. That is a direct result of the unions unwillingness to bend pricing them out of the market. GM didn;t pull out of Flint to ruin a city but the unions there made it impossible to make a profitable product. Bravo union, bravo.
Smartass - I do know him and I know that he has a cottage. I guess having had his position for 20 years with a shit load of unneeded overtime helped pay for it. You make a lof of assumptions about what I know, who I know and what I have seen. To paint the union members as innocent victims is very disingenious. | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6566 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
So PB, one last question. What do you think is a fair wage for a janitor? a carpenter? a line worker? Do I think that they should make a fair wage? Absolutely. I suspect however that our perception of fair will vastly differ. | |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
P_B, I didn't submit the photo correctly, and in some cases, when you make a mistake, you are written up by the bosses. In those instances, it is sometimes wise to ask for union representation. | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6567 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
One final point to clarify my position: I am not anti-union in a strict sense. I am anti-union excess and unions protecting under performing workers for no other reason than they are in a union. I just think that they abuse the power they have then complain about the situations that they helped cause. Too much protectionism and not enough accountability. | |||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 75 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
PB: I'm not sure I know where to begin with you. I don't think anyone has suggested that the picketers don't have a right to express themselves (which isn't to say they have a right to interrupt the work going on at Tiger Stadium). People on this page have merely suggested that it is a blow to the image of the area. You keep implying that people are trying to stifle their first amendment rights. Not true. Don't people on this board have a right to criticize the picketers? Or like most on the left, are your rules a one-way street? Your emotionally charged responses condescendingly critique others for not researching their opinions. I suppose we need to footnote everything for you to be happy. Okay, so I'll play your game. The union contract that GM signed (with a gun to its head) provides that GM workers who worked at factories that are now closed will continue to receive nearly their pay and benefits until the union contract expires in September of 2007. GM is currently estimating that this will cost at least $800,000,000 in 2006 alone. In a highly competitive and rapidly evolving industry you need to be able to adjust your workforce to meet your needs. GM has been handcuffed by the UAW. The UAW has shortsightedly done everything that it can to squeeze every last penny out of GM. If you think the captain's of industry- the same people who direct the placement of capital wax nostalgically about the history of the labor movement like you do, then I'm afriad you're sadly mistaken. If they did, then maybe locating in Michigan would sound like a great idea. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Most business owners will fight the organization of their workplace with everything they've got. They realize intuitively (without the need to do a lot of research) that it is a detriment to the business. If that's the case, do you really expect them to locate their workplace in a militant union region? | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 118 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
Again, unsubstantiated conclusions aren't going to sell your point. Give me some research about how the cost of labor single handedly made it impossible to make a profit and I'll accept your criticisms. The fact that GM has been designing and engineering inferior products plays no role in its profit margins, right?
Maybe you should apply for his position so that you too could enjoy his lifestyle. Again, you are not a victim.
Who's making disingenious assumptions?
I'm not painting a portrait of any victim. I'm simply attempting to defend on onslaught of unfounded attacks on organized labor and its role in this city. I encourage a healthy discourse about the role of the labor movement. All I'm asking for is a little more substance and a little more respect in this debate. I could very easily spout off about how all workers are being exploited by evil corporations whose interests lie soley in padding executive salaries. I could just as easily attempt to support this conclusion with real life stories of Enron and WorldCom. That, my friend, would be disingenious. The fact of the matter, is there are good workers and shitty workers; good companies and bad. Regardless of where your ideological allegiance lies the debate over labor/managment issues should rest on substantiated facts, not emotional cries of outrage because of a janitor owning a cottage. | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6568 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
Not I. I work in the field and know how overtime has been cut and services have remained the same. There is a reason that unscheduled overtime is a huge driving force of how many manufacturing facilities are running. Look for some major changes in many large companies to completely eliminate unscheduled overtime.
Yet you dismiss what everyone says with your argument of 'give me proof'. My proof in many cases is my experiences that you have questioned at every point in this thread.
And I ask you the same. Show me why unions are necessary. I have no problem with a janitor owning a cottage. I have issues with a janitor sleeping on the job and having 100% protection from his union rep. You know as well as I that people simply do not put in complaints about union laborers slacking off because we will in turn (yes, my experience, I have learned) be targeted with every grievance known to man. Do you have any idea on how much the Big 3 pay to settle the most ridiculous grievances? If a plant is at 67 instead of 68 grievances are filed. Those grievances are settled with money in many cases. Tell me how that level of union protectionism is good for anyone involved. I know people that I used to work with that would go out of their way to file every grievance they could imagine figuring there would be financial compensation. I am all for unions protecting workers fair (and I mean fair) wages and ensuring safe working conditions. I do not, however agree with ridiculous protectionism when some employees (a very small portion mind you) spend more time looking for grievanmces to file than working. Do you have any idea how much money is paid for the most minute grievance at a large manufacturing facility? That is a pretty large indicator that the union is not working form an idealistic stand point. Have you ever had programs delayed because a union would not sign off on bringing in contract labor even though they are fully utilized for the next 3-4 months. The attitude of we can't do it but you can't bring anyone in to do it just does wonders for the respective corporation. Again -these are isolated examples and not representative of all cases. If the union did not support these types of actions I would have a much better attitude towards them but I have seen this stuff time and time again. | |||
Gianni Member Username: Gianni Post Number: 202 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 209.104.144.90 |
I was in Manhattan and downtown Chicago this summer and saw the "rat" in both places. We must be doing something right. | |||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6569 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
I think that it is pretty common place. I believe that it was used in other strikes around here recently. | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 119 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
Spartacus
Reread my comment about constitutional rights. I never made any such implication. Solid lead-in for an irrational jab at the left, however.
Mistaken about what? I never made the argument that "wax[ing] nostalgically about the history of the labor movement" is a means by which industry leaders should make business decisions regarding where to locate. You're flying off the handle here.
Many businesses rely on skilled and specialized workforce to complete jobs. It's not rare that a business will seek out a union shop for completion of such specialized work. As much as you may want to view the organized work force as unskilled and worthless, a good contractor often understands that his best option regarding labor isn't necessarily the cheapest at-will workforce. You are mistaken by believing that these "captians of industry" are being hijacked at gun point and forced to employ union workers. You are also mistaken by believing that a couple dozen carpenters with picket signs are "interrupting the work going on at Tiger Stadium." | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 120 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
Gianni, I think there needs to be a digital rat demonstrating through these pages (Message edited by peanut_breath on January 27, 2006) | |||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 76 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
First off, I didn't say they were interrupting work at Tiger Stadium. I simply stated that no one on this thread suggested they didn't have the right to picket. We all know that Unions love to interrupt work, in fact, in some instances that is the point of the picket. If that was going on then this would be a different story. You mentioned "freedom" and "constitutional rights" the implication being that these issues were in play. You stated that the outside world, "does not view the image of Detroit exclusively through the lens of a right wing agenda." So you think that most business leaders think that an area with a heavy union culture is a good place to set-up shop? I'm curious, in your view through what lens does wall street see the image of Detroit? BTW, I never said union workers were "unskilled or worthless" You like setting up those paper tigers don't you. | |||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 77 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
All I'm trying to say is that I believe this reinforces a negative image of the region. | |||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 11 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.136.146.194 |
Excuse me.... Mr. Peanut_Breath. I am an out of work analog rat. My rat wife left me for a digital rat. His eyes could blink in different colors!!! HOW CAN I COMPETE WITH THAT? | |||
Peanut_breath Member Username: Peanut_breath Post Number: 121 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 66.73.225.162 |
At this point, Detroiters aren't concerned much about how some suit on Wall Street views their city. I think most of us are looking forward to improved city services, lower crime, and improved schools. These "business leaders" you seem to be so concerned about, and the image of Detroit they will see, is much more influenced by the above factors than a few picket signs and an inflatable rat. | |||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 954 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
From the way back news dept, here is a picket line in May of 1939. The UAW and Briggs Mfg. were at odds with one another. The DPD preserved the disorder at Briggs Stadium.        WSU A picture of Briggs Stadium from the '40s  |
coal miners cofee break