  Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1488 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.164.127 |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060123/B IZ/601230356 | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1348 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.193.105 |
Uh oh, here we go again! | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 826 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.204 |
Not a chance. It's not walkable, and never will be. Troy is Le Corbusier run amok. | ||
Spidergirl Member Username: Spidergirl Post Number: 151 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 63.77.247.130 |
"I think this Monarch project is going to set a new standard. It's going to be like something you'd find on the Magnificent Mile in Chicago," said Matt Farrell, vice president of the Farmington Hills-based Friedman Real Estate Group." and "The walkability factor is something city leaders are working to address. The city recently spent $137,000 to retain the consulting firm Birchler Arroyo Associates to help identify ways to make Big Beaver a "world-class corridor," and is using strips such as Chicago's Michigan Avenue and Las Vegas' Las Vegas Boulevard as models. The company has proposed extensive streetscaping, changes in zoning laws and other techniques they hope will make the stretch more than just a thoroughfare to and from I-75 and the Somerset Collection." I don't really see this as a walkable area - not with Big Beaver acting as a divided highway...any thoughts? | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 566 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 66.227.165.194 |
"get the fuck out of here" come on now? all of a sudden these racist rich white folks crave a downtown? well guess what? the region had a great downtown. it was abandoned by you years ago, and because of your efforts its been having a difficult time rebuilding itself. well guess what again? downtown detroit is rebuilding itself dispite all of your negativity. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 447 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.56 |
While I admire their tenacity, a "downtown Troy" would be nice for that city and it's neighbors. Also, while it is becoming a "financial hub" for the region, I do not see it as a Downtown as the function of a downtown normally is. BTW, with all of these new high density developments, I assume they are taking into account the huge amount of parking that will be needed? Regardless, this may become a financial hub for the Metro Detroit area, it will never replace Detroit as a Downtown in feel and utility. It lacks the high density and walkability that is needed. Also 155 high density units will not suppy enough people to create a "bustling" neighborhood. That's where the giant parking structures will need to come in. While, this is a boon for the City of Troy and it's neighbors, I don't see this as anymore than a Metro Detroit City trying to make an identity for themselves. For their sake, I hope it works for them. Fact is, Detroit is still "where it's at". | ||
Ddmoore54 Member Username: Ddmoore54 Post Number: 256 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.242.220.249 |
That Gregory Thomas guy is delusional. | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 216.111.89.3 |
Troy should have taken the offer for the Minor league baseball team, but you can't compete with Detroit's stadiums/architecture. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1181 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
They're using Las Vegas Blvd as a model of walkability? Hah! | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 468 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
That article is ridiculous. And I wish I could personally bitch slap nearly everyone that was quoted in that article. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 471 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 69.246.5.196 |
People actually try to convince me that the us vs. them mentality doesn't exist anymore. If it's an "Urban Village" that people desire, why don't they move to an "Urban" area?
| ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 469 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
^I think instead of a bitch slap, that guy deserves a couple good punches. | ||
Jimelnino Member Username: Jimelnino Post Number: 322 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.79.103.87 |
I dont understand, Downtowns can't simply be created, they have to grow up over the years, and I don't think thats ever going to happen again given how everyone wants to live in suburbs nowadays. I'll take our real downtown anyday | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 775 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
"urban village"? that term conjures up images of those ugly condos that open up to the target parking lot at coolidge and 15 mile. who the hell wants to live in a plaza parking lot? good luck making 8 lane big beaver rd. "walkable". I'd feel safer walking down the middle of an unlit stretch of woodward at 4 in the morning wearing a black trenchcoat and skimask than walking down the side of that road full of "desparate housewive" types strung out on prescription drugs heading to neiman marcus before their botox treatment | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 471 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
LMAO at GM. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 448 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.56 |
LOL @ Gravitymachine JimeInino, Downtowns CAN be created, but it's called PLANNING from the begining, not suburban development, then notice that something happened and OH, we should make this "downtown Troy". I mean, come ON! and The Strip in Vegas is something they are striving for? While I was recently in Vegas and had a BLAST, how the hell are they going to make that happen? In case they didn't notice, we have Winter in Michigan for about 8 months of the year and if Vegas were in Michigan, NOONE would go there. While I think this attempt for a "downtown" will be more successful than the attempts in Novi or Warren, I still think it'll look and feel artificial and uncomfortable. It will never be anything more than suburban trying to create an urban atmosphere. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1585 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
Great Downtowns are never planned. They came about due to the lack of cars and people needing to walk to get everything they need. The need of people to walk to get the things created the high densities of downtowns. All great downtowns were created before cars ruled that communities transportation methods. | ||
Jimelnino Member Username: Jimelnino Post Number: 324 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.79.103.87 |
My point was, Downtowns gain their charm from their history (IMO anyway), which includes starting small and building up. You'll never find 87 developers willing to build 10 city blocks worth of multi-story buildings at one time. Of course you can plan stuff out, but your example of Vegas is an example of what I was getting at, Vegas wasn't built all at once, it grew up. The company I work for is building houses in the new "Downtown Warren", and ever since I've seen the original plans for it, I never understood the idea of a downtown that you turned into off the road, like the entire downtown is a store or something. You should be able to drive into downtown from every angle off multiple streets, not by turning right at 13 and Van Dyke. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1182 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
If Troy wants to create a more "urban" atmosphere along Big Beaver, it's going to take a lot more work than what they're proposing, specifically along the lines of residential development. Based on my experiences, it seems that a good urban neighborhood needs a minimum of 20,000 residents to generate a diversity of activities and uses. Somehow, I think the current residents of Troy would be up in arms before such necessary rezoning would take place. One hundred fifty-five condos isn't going to suddenly produce a "neighborhood", and Big Beaver is going to need some serious attention to detail, but Troy gets an "E" for effort. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 778 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
they're also getting a new TGI Fridays just east of 75.....that spells neighborhood almost as well as applebees! | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1183 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Ever notice how Applebee's is never actually IN a real, functioning neighborhood? Just thought I'd point that out. Back to the thread.... | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 474 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.9.83 |
LOL @ "toy downtowns"... And personally, I don't want the name of Michigan's Main Street to be "Big Beaver", unless our neighbors in Troy petition for a name change. I mean, that sounds classy to our SE Michigan ears, but to others?' Woodward sounds much classier. Then again, I'm biased. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6503 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
replace Big Beaver with 26 mile road and we will be hearing the identical story in 20 years after Troy is abandoned due to older infrastructure and white flight. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 338 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
I would rather it be known simply as 16 Mile or carry on with the Metro Parkway designation from the Sterling Heights portion. Big Beaver along with Exit 69 is just too much to handle !  | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1005 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
omg these people are on CRACK!!!!! They say downtown Detroit is a place where people work and leave??? lol what bout all the people in the bars after work or the bums on the street or the people living in apartments and lofts... If you ask me... TROY is a Ghostown after 9 PM and summerset closes... and they even admitted it... I dunno... sounds like a failure waiting to happen... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6504 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
Darwin - Many communities in OC (and through out SE Michigan) changed the names from Mile roads to other names so it didn;t sound as 'urban'. The irony that they know want to build an urban feeling 'downtown'. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3069 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Ok, is the Detroit News even trying to show it's bias anymore? What an incredibly ridiculous title. Sounds more like they are wishing it will more than anything else. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 450 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 84.156.9.136 |
If you say it enough times... then it becomes true(in people's minds). It's like advertising. If people see something three times, then they suddenly start paying attention to it. This is the second article implying Big Beaver as the new "main street, Detroit" in about a month. My guess is we'll see another in the next couple months. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 67 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135 |
Troy won't pull the trigger on this. I attended the planning session. They want to make it a walkable/bikeable boulevard *and* carry (as I recall) nearly 80K cars a day. Yes, they did have a picture of Las Vegas Boulevard as an example. I asked if they were kidding. The planner said there just aren't many good example of boulevards in the U.S. They had even more photos of the Champs-Elysee. I was literally laughing. When a senior asked how they propose people walk across this boulevard, the planners said they didn't know, but bridges and tunnels (!) were possibilities. Here's my guess: In a fit of wild optismism, the DDA allocated money to improve the road; the planner is making some plans in order to get that money; and in a fews years down the road there might be some new pretty signs along the Beav'. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 451 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 84.156.9.136 |
OMG, they must be getting some quality drugs out there at the Troy DDA... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1184 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Hmmm...so they want to move 80,000 cars a day through there, but they want to make it pedestrian-friendly too. Does anyone else see a problem with this? I'd be very happy to send the good people of Troy photos of a decent urban boulevard. (Message edited by DaninDC on January 23, 2006) | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2298 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.20.146 |
This is why Detroit will always remain divided and segregated. You have stupid suburbann planners who think they can plan and create a downtown with the main emphasis on maintaining car traffic?!?! Why not build a freaken subway into Detroit, and use existing infrastructure (and zoning ordiances for URBAN lifestyle) to create a VIBRANT Detroit? Don't these idiots realize that the average American does not know Troy other than the historical reference to Helen in the Ancient Greek world????? GOD, no wonder the young people are LEAVING Michigan for ::coughs:: CHICAGO, LA, DC and ATLANTA. What do they all have in common? Vibrant URBAN downtowns. Not wannabe suburban "urban villages" | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2203 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.78.58 |
LA and DC...Vibrant Urban downtowns??? Young people leave for LA for the entertainment industry and the weather, LA is known as not being pedestrian friendly. Young people leave MI for DC for politics and don't exactly hang out in many parts of DC. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3070 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
So, how much did the Troy DDA have to pay the News to print this? Any guesses? | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 448 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
Sounds like Downtown Detroit doesn't have much to worry about if this "plan" is all troy has. What I'm saying is, if Troy really had a clue what a downtown should be like, the planning to make it happen, and the funds etc. then I'd be a little more concerned. They can't build it if they don't know what it is. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1185 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Thanks for sharing, Metrodetguy, although I'm not sure who you're talking about. I know plenty of people that I've met while *gasp* hanging out in DC. Considering I've never done hallucinogens, I'm probably not making them up, either. A big part of what we enjoy is the sense of neighborhood and community--things you can't have when living on a road with 80,000 cars a day. | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2009 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.246.4.29 |
The whole thought of Troy being a downtown is bizarre...no one lives in that area they just commute to the mall? | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 472 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Troy city officials know what a real downtown is, they are just mad that it's in Detroit. (Message edited by Mind field on January 23, 2006) | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2207 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.78.58 |
Danindc, don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of DC. I meant that many of the young people leaving here for DC tend to hang out in certain parts of that area (including outside of the city), rather than the city as a whole. I also meant that politics was the main force behind their leaving here for there, not a "vibrant downtown" per se. In other words, unlike some other cities (such as NYC, Boston, Chicago, etc.) the main draw of DC is not a "vibrant downtown". | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 451 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
Birmingham is the closest thing to a real downtown that the suburbs have, as far as infrastructure goes. Just a few high rises and BAM!, that would be much closer than anything Troy could come up with. Troy doesn't have anywhere for people to mingle OUTSIDE. absolutely rediculous. | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1370 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.61.197.206 |
"because leaders wanted to be on Big Beaver, where the action is." rotflmao! *gasp* Are these people high? Could Big Beaver be the next downtown? No. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3071 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Matt, you hit it right on the head in your post #448, and did you Mind Field. I don't doubt that Big Beaver is a great SUBURBAN corridor. But that is all it can ever be barring completely dismantling Big Beaver and rebuilding it as an urban corridor with side streets and the like. Troy better stick to what it does best: an auto-oriented in-and-out setup. Troy, "downtown" ANYTHING you are not. Live with it. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 495 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.214.106 |
Downtown Big Beaver is OK, but I like downtown M-59 better. LOL | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.189.92 |
When I first read the title, I read it as "Could Big Beaver be yet another suburban downtown like Ferndale, Royal Oak, etc.?" but the immediate reference in the article to "downtown Southeast Michigan", well, that's just silly. And when the writer actually writes that these two developments are enough to turn this area into what someone calls "downtown Southeast Michigan", that's just irresponsible on the part of the writer. Adding 155 condos is easily matched by the loft and condo conversions happening in the real downtown SEM, Detroit. "There's no Morton's over there, no Capital Grille." I love how this guy can feel so elite about some chain restaurants. Yet another aspect of the urban experience they are going to be missing even if this turns out completely as planned. And perhaps the plan is simply to create a successful shopping street rather than a real mixed-use street. I can see that happening. Can't wait to see the panhandlers too. On the positive side, making "downtown" Troy more dense will enable it to be another stop on a future DARTA light rail system. The people who are there will want to take the train to cross the street. ;) In other news... Washington Twp in Macomb County is to try building a lifestyle center (like Novi's failed experiment). | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3073 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Poor Fountain Walk. Wasn't it supposed to be the "Next Big Thing?" And now "downtown" Troy is planning to be the "Next Big Thing." What a transient culture we have. Troy is going to be another pit stop on the way to the next "Next Big Thing" which will be further north and further sprawled. You know "Southfield 2.0" They once thought they were the end all/be all of Southeast Michigan. They thought that they were the schitt, if you will. You know, Southfield once had snazzy new and upscale mall, chains, and gleaming office towers too...Troy's past the point of not repeating the same mistakes, I hate to say. (Message edited by lmichigan on January 23, 2006) | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 623 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 12.108.190.1 |
It's a terrible idea and it won't happen. But what's actually tragic is that, given the massive amount of office, retail and residential, Troy actually could have built a nice downtown. But they didn't. Because they don't even comprehend what a city is. I work there and I find it to be an awful, de-humanizing place to be. Le Corbusier gone mad, per above. | ||
Tielerh11 Member Username: Tielerh11 Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.216.118.196 |
I'm going to college in the fall to be an urban planner... someone please tell me where these Troy planning folks went so I can be sure I DON'T go there... | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 68 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135 |
I think I gave them one fine piece of advice. Forget the Beav' dream and build a Little India. Troy seems to have a large Indian community and some great restaurants. Done right, it might actually become a unique destination within Southeast Michigan. Of course, you'd still have to drive there... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Troy also has the largest amount of Poles in Metro Detroit. Expect some kielbasa fastfood joints, possibly with curry. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1578 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.251 |
Interesting that the ethnic population of Troy is brought up here.A friend of mine recently moved back to Mich from the Nothern Chicago suburbs.He thought about living in Troy because of the ethnic diversity_ Detroit was about as much as an option as Dachau so don't bother. As for "downtowns" don't get up on your horses too high Detroit aint exactly the benchmark of downtowns. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3077 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Sure isn't, but neither is a glorfied, overgrown strip mall/office park (i.e. "downtown" Troy). In fact, that is probably the very furthest thing from a downtown district. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 899 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133 |
When did I75 and M59 become a "hot hangout"? I love hanging out near the silverdome, chrysler tech center, and a couple other auto related businesses up there. no matter if you go N or S on 75 or E or W on M59, I'm pretty sure nothing strikes me as "downtown". At all. Won't work. And I'm not saying that because I love Detroit. I just don't believe this would work no matter where it is. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3078 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
BTW, there was something that almost seemed sneaked into the article that was right on point, a rare his amongst the misses:
Doesn't that say it all? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3657 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 207.74.110.184 |
What's New Detroit without a Downtown? Sooner or later all the suburbs in the OC may come toghether and create a the biggest suburban city that will be better than Detroit with a population of over 1,200,000 people or more. But the problem is it would be a 85% majority white. Soon ot be mayor L.B. Patterson will bash on King Kwame and say my city is bigger that your city. | ||
Ericdfan Member Username: Ericdfan Post Number: 82 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.41.117.60 |
I tried to stop in Troy to get some gas on the way home from my girlfriends house. I turned around and got right back on the freeway. At the time they wanted 3.159 for regular unleaded when I could get it in my neck of the woods for 2.759.. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 452 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.53 |
"...Detroit was about as much as an option as Dachau..." Hallucinate much? Being that I am sure you have never been to Dachau, you're just trying to make a "veiled attempt" at dark humour at the expense of the Jews. Very tasteless and disgusting. While Detroit is 85% black, it is STILL one of the most diverse cities in this region. What other city has a large population of Mexicans, Middle Easterners and Eastern Europeans? The only other city in this area that is a greater melting pot is Hamtramick. Fact is, there is only one major "downtown" in this area and that is Detroit. Like it or not. And if Detroit disappeared? This would be the largest suburban region without a downtown. No other area will replace Detroit or the center of this region. | ||
Gogo Member Username: Gogo Post Number: 1165 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
For what its worth, wikipedia's criteria for a downtown... List of typical CBD characteristics A CBD is likely to have many of the following characteristics:
While downtown Detroit may not achieve all of these, no amount of city planning on the parts of Troy's government will ever achieve most of these objectives. Detroit may not have great retail but it is something that can potentially be resolved within the city itself. Troy city council can streetscape till its blue in the face, but it will never be a hub of transportation, have the density of offices that Detroit's CBD does, or any number of items on this list. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 71 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.81.52.188 |
"using strips such as Chicago's Michigan Avenue and Las Vegas' Las Vegas Boulevard as models" One of these is laughable, the other, with it's 8 lane highway and enormous distances between structures, is a little better. However, unless Troy is going to build a pyramid, a castle, a replica of new york, legalize gambling, and serve alcohol around the clock, I don't see it working. Also, Morton's sucks. You can get better steaks for half the price elsewhere. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 454 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.53 |
Try Carl's! But... it's in Detroit... | ||
Jfre66_77 Member Username: Jfre66_77 Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 12.15.1.161 |
If you step back and put all the of the "we vs. they", "suburbs vs. downtown" stuff aside, and view this proposal for what it's worth, it really is an ill-conceived idea. In likening it to Las Vegas Boulevard, who thinks that is such a great idea? When did the Vegas Strip become the gold standard? I personally hate the strip in Las Vegas, as it is an awful lot of walking to get from point to point with very little in between. A "downtown" area really needs to be significantly more mixed-use than the Troy Corridor will ever be. All of the retail is concentrated at Somerset, and most everything else is office. The residential component is missing along this strip. The majority of the folks that live to the immediate north of the area are most likely not going to walk to the area, nor will the people directly south of it. As far as it being a destination for people that don't live in the area, what else is there besides the mall? Outside of people that commute to Troy for work, I don't imagine a lot of people coming to the area for activities other than dining and shopping. While some of the ideas that are being kicked around might improve the area, I can't see it ever being transformed into a "downtown" area. | ||
Bunny Member Username: Bunny Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.215.202.130 |
This article is just too easy to pick apart; it is just one infuriating statement after another. And since everyone else made so many great points above I will just stick to the funniest part: ""Thirty years ago, I could drive anywhere in Troy in 10 minutes. Now it takes me 10 minutes just to get off my street," said James Savage, a 75-year-old Troy resident who moved here from Royal Oak 30 years ago to escape the urban lifestyle." Oh come on! The urban lifestyle in Royal Oak? Maybe this guy needs to move out to the Thumb to escape the Urban Lifestyle. LOL Most developers obviously do not read Wikipedia or have the foggiest idea of what constitutes a "downtown". So sad. | ||
Gogo Member Username: Gogo Post Number: 1167 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.23 |
What frustrates me most about this entire thing is the Troy government who seems woooed by buzz words thrown out by some developer. Phrases like "Chicago's Magnificent Mile" have gotten them giddy with excitement, yet if you ask the vast majority of people who live in Troy if they want to resemble downtown Chicago, most of them will probably say no. People who live in suburban cul-de-sacs want to be close to highways and away from this type of vision. | ||
Gdub Member Username: Gdub Post Number: 965 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.15.192 |
True. It seems like every suburb without a real downtown is freaking out thinking that young people will not be attracted to the area, and the tax base will slowly erode with the gradual decrease of new residents. Which, in many cases, is likely to happen. Guess the shortsighted original planners should have thought of that before believing that everyone would just naturally worship the car and the cul-de-sac. | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 706 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
you guys kill me. ok, I'll give you that many of the quotes used in the article are ridiculous, but most of the comments are purely excitement and pride for the city. every city wants to think it is the center of the universe, and troy can probably get away with being a little less modest that most places. you don't need to take everything so literally. by "downtown" they obviously are just aiming for mixed-use, high-density development. I don't think anyone truly believes that Troy could ever compete with, or take the place of Detroit. as for the benchmarks, again, don't take everything so literally. Las Vegas has been/is undergoing a huge housing boom which is resulting in the city/region really looking at how this increase in density will affect the city/region - they are having the same concerns with these high rises, so it makes a lot of sense for Troy to look at what is happening out there. again, walkable – this does not necessarily mean a “downtown” environment. Most people are not going to walk to Somerset, or their office on Big Beaver. But does that mean that there shouldn’t be a plan set in place to encourage walking where it is possible? There are several subdivisions, condos and apartment complexes within easy walking distance, and with all this proposed development, it makes sense to increase/encourage pedestrian access from the surrounding neighborhoods - every person you can get off the road helps. And there are many office workers in the area who already walk to the mall for lunch, shopping, etc. and I’m sure more would if they were encouraged and it was efficient/convenient. Not to mention the recreation opportunities and linkages that could be created - look farther west in Macomb County - the traffic counts are not quite as high, but there is a very popular hike/bike trail on that section of 16 Mile going out to Metro Beach. what irks me is this attitude that you all have towards the suburbs and developers who are encouraging the redevelopment, or creation of these new downtowns. have most of the suburbs in this area been planned horribly? yes. but many are trying to look at their mistakes and encourage more mixed-use, high-density, sustainable development – the suburbs may be filled with sprawl, but are are trying to develop more responsibly – how is this bad? people (the main stream) really desire this type of development – and sorry, but developers, banks, and municipalities are at the whims of what the market desires. if this were in Detroit you so called “urbanists” would be beside yourselves. This is the exact same reaction everyone had when it was announced that Troy/Birmingham announced the plans for the Transit Center. fact is, Troy is actually doing some innovative things. If you guys really had any civic pride you would realize that this is a asset - TO THE REGION. The bitterness and jealously is ridiculous - it is possible to be a city booster WITHOUT being a suburb hater. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3080 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Jfried, Detroit has a downtown, Troy doesn't nor probably ever will have a downtown as defined by most dictionary and urban planners. It's really that simple. It's one thing to have civic pride no matter where you live. It's another to continually suggest that an overgrown strip mall and office park can be the "downtown of Southeast Michigan." If they want to make such bold claims, they better get ready for the appropriate criticism. Regardless of anyone's bias towards city or suburb, everyone seems to be in agreement that this article is simply ridiculous. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1191 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I think the general sentiment is that Troy will build to higher densities than what it is now, but those densities will still be insufficient to create pedestrian friendly, walkable streets. Unless they're really willing to overhaul their municipal zoning regs, and give up on the idea of Big Beaver carrying 80,000 cars a day, it's just going to turn into a bad joke, like Novi's Fountain Walk. I think the detractors probably feel that any attempt at creating a new urban environment from scratch is going to feel contrived, and fail miserably. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6521 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.158.96.118 |
The only thing that irks me is that they specifically state that nobody goes to downtown Detroit and that everyone flees once they can. Take that out and more power to them. Take the cheap shot for no reason and what do you expect JFried? Funny that you come to the defense of the people in this article but that constant jabs of 'nobody goes to Detroit' type of shit just flies right past your radar. Funny you call us out for being divisive but comments like that seem to be acceptable to you. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1192 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Well, I don't ever go to Troy, so can I say that "no one ever goes to Troy"? | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 707 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
jt1 - you're right. that quote is bullshit, but it had already been said, so I didn't think I needed to repeat it. my issue is with the ridiculing of development of anything in the suburbs, or more specifically, anything not in detroit city proper. mocking those comments is one thing, but to constantly rag on development that is actually becoming more sustainable is tiring, and unproductive. every townhouse/loft that is built is 1 less unit that is build in a sprawling sub. lmich did you read gogo's definition of a downtown? of those characteristics, please tell me what Troy is lacking that would qualify it as downtown? other than pedestrian friendly. physically, we all know big beaver doesn't come close to what we think of as a downtown, but physchologically, Troy has almost every characteristic the average person would use to describe a thriving city-center. I know the physical structure is a huge part of what makes a city a city, but I think you get what I'm saying. my point is, much of the development in our suburbs is becoming more urban/sustainable. I just don't see the point in ragging and being so devisive, when we are moving in the right direction. I've never defended the cheapshots being made towards the city, but I don't see the point in firing back. | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 708 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
dan - there are varying levels of walkability/pedestrian friendliness. it's doubtfull that many people are going to walk from shop to shop, bar hop, or go for a walk to push the baby stroller. however, there are corridors with traffic counts well over 80k where it is convenient and efficient for people in the adjacent neighborhoods to access business, communte to their office, or recreate. doesn't it make sense to increase/encourage all forms of pedestrian traffic that may be possible? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6522 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.158.96.25 |
Very fair JFried. | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 473 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Jfried, come on. I take issue with this article being in one of the metro's most widely read newspapers. The man who stated that everyone leaves downtown Detroit after work and no one goes there anymore is way off base and shouldn't even have been used as a quote. The National City Bank exec who was claiming that being in Troy, on the Big Beaver corridor was like being in the center of it all, come on! Has he ever travelled to a major city or been to downtown Detroit? And the very poorly chosen title of the article based on a delusional city employee of Troy. It suggests that Troy can overtake Detroit as the region's center, as it's hub. I will say through gritted teeth that Troy is a nice city. It is safe, diverse, clean, and has great ammenities. But so do a lot of other suburbs in Michigan, it's really nothing THAT special. To even think that any area in Troy could ever compare to the architecture, culture, entertainment, or urbanity of the REAL downtown SE Michigan is too much. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1193 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Jfried, walkability has everything to do with two things: scale and safety. Unless Troy adopts radical zoning changes, scale will remain unaddressed. What's involved in this? Massive building setbacks from the street, acres of parking lots around every building, and eight-lane barrier to the other side of the road. The other aspect is safety, which just plain isn't going to happen if they plan to have 80,000 cars a day on that road. In addition to the sheer volume of steel careening down the highway, other factors are speed limits (!), width of roadway in relation to adjacent buildings, width of sidewalks, pedestrian amenities like benches and trash cans, availability of transit, and on-street parking, to serve as both a physical and psychological barrier between people and cars. Note that all of the above is geometrical--it has nothing to do with the aesthetics, which I have a sneaking suspicion is where this thing is headed. | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 709 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
again, I don't see people just milling about either, but walkability can be totally utilitarian. walk from store. bike to metro beach. walkability is about directness, continuity, street crossings, visual interest/amenities, and safety. what you're talking about is pedestrian oriented development, and that isn't going to happen unless the city makes the changes you noted - which is sounds like they may be considering. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 124 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
It's about time for most to realize that a downtown today won't resemble the downtowns of yesteryear. A downtown is a commercial business hub. Older downtowns are history in most metropolitan areas. Back then - many decades and generations ago, the cities were small, people actually lived there or near there, and quite naturally they walked. Today, (obese) Americans rarely walk, will increasingly shop online, and shop in person at the "brick-and-mortars" in their chosen downtowns - the ones that developed in a free-market economy. Big Beaver is quite naturally one of them - not the only one, either. OTOH, city Detroiters long for the 19th or 20th Centuries (never) to return and are pissed off when everybody else doesn't care to discard their tastes, computers, and vehicles just to please some people who mock and hate them. Suburbanites will just continue going on as before, and if they want a trip down memory lane or a pastime, there's always the la-la land or sporting venues in "downtown" Detroit. (Message edited by livernoisyard on January 24, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3083 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Really, Livernoiseyard, tell us what you really think about downtown Detroit. lol A "downtown" is many things, INCLUDING but not ever ONLY a commercial business hub. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Apparently, Detroit does not appear to possess any distinctive downtown. Whoever submitted the "downtown" article in Wikipedia omitted any mention of Detroit in its North American listing of 50 downtowns. (Maybe Big Beaver - Troy might appear before Detroit in a future revision.): downtown - CBD Downtown Albuquerque, New Mexico Journal Center, Albuquerque, New Mexico Downtown Anchorage, Alaska Downtown Atlanta, Georgia Loda, Downtown Mobile,Alabama Downtown Boston, Massachusetts Downtown Calgary, Alberta Uptown Charlotte, North Carolina Chicago Loop, Chicago, Illinois Downtown Cleveland, Ohio Downtown Dallas, Texas Downtown Edmonton, Alberta Downtown Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Downtown Halifax, Nova Scotia Downtown Hamilton, Ontario Downtown Houston, Texas Downtown Kansas City, Missouri Downtown Los Angeles, California San Francisco Financial District, California Downtown Manhattan, New York City (the Lower Manhattan CBD) Midtown Manhattan, New York City (the largest CBD in the country) Downtown Miami, Florida Downtown Milwaukee, Wisconsin Mississauga City Centre, Ontario Downtown Montreal, Quebec Downtown Nashville, Tennessee Downtown New Haven, Connecticut Central Business District, New Orleans, Louisiana Downtown Orlando, Florida Philadelphia City Center Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Downtown Phoenix, Arizona Downtown Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Downtown Portland, Oregon Downtown Quebec City, Quebec Downtown Regina, Saskatchewan Downtown Richmond, Virginia Downtown Salt Lake City, Utah Downtown San Jose, California Downtown Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Downtown Seattle, Washington Downtown Syracuse, New York Downtown Tampa and Westshore, Tampa, Florida Downtown Toronto, Ontario Downtown Vancouver, British Columbia Downtown - Columbus, Ohio The District - Downtown Columbia, Missouri El Centro, Mexico City, Mexico Santa Fe de Mexico, Mexico City, Mexico Guadalajara, Jalisco Panama City, Panama Even Panama City is listed, but no Detroit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3085 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
You're a funny guy...I think. I'll just take it as humor, because there is no way you're trying to be serious. (Message edited by lmichigan on January 24, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Lmich: Care to cruise downtown Anchorage with me? I hear it's HOT this time of year. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3086 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I think I'll pass. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2335 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Now how exactly do they have Atlanta in that list and seem to miss Detroit? I actually thought I have been living in Downtown Detroit for the last three years... To think I have been delusional all this time eh... | ||
Lt_tom Member Username: Lt_tom Post Number: 62 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.0.107.92 |
The only things hotter than the weather in anchorage are the babes | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 749 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
I think someone should edit the site and add our Detroit Downtown. By the way...what ar those people out there thinking. Troy will NEVER have a downtown. The next thing you know they will try and reroute the Detroit River to give it a more downtown feel. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 72 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.81.52.188 |
JFried, I cannot speak for others, but what I took exception with in the article (besides comparing Troy to Chicago), was the enthusiasm with which the developer talked about making Big Beaver "downtown southeast michigan." Not downtown Troy, for the subdivisions that are close to the office buildings, but "downtown" of the entire metro region. If this project meets it goals, meaning it attracts all of the top companies in the region and siphons off potential urban dwellers from places like Detroit, wouldn't that mean the death of downtown Detroit, and therefore the region? On the first point, I have no doubt it would kill Detroit. Without hope of future progress, a lot fewer people would invest in or move into Detroit. As for killing the region, why do you think our "brain drain" problem is so bad? Aside from the economy sucking, young people are leaving for cooler cities. Most of my college buddies have left for places like Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Boston, and San Diego. The few that remain have mentioned how they wish they could move to a "real city." Troy being the center of the region wouldn't stop this outflow, and it definitely wouldn't draw new grads from outside. Not to mention having an even worse Detroit would stop companies from relocating here (even L. Brooks admits that). Don't get me wrong, I love that suburbs are building downtowns. I live in Novi and like that they're attempting to build a Northville-style downtown (which, BTW, is not Fountain Walk. That is just an outdoor mall and is the most crowded "failure" I've ever seen). But a real, big-city downtown that defines the region can only work in Detroit. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 69 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135 |
Articles get written, edited, and published and they don't always provide a balanced perspective. You can hardly fault the DDA for hiring an enthusiastic planner. What quotes would you expect the planners to give the media? "Big Beaver will never be a real downtown, but we're going improve it!" The planners know who's writing the checks. A Troy official and a planner said to me at the meeting there is no night life in Troy except Somerset and that gets old real quick. They probably didn't give the media that quote. There are no surprises here. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3098 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not faulting (at least all that much) an enthusiast DDA. As you said, they get paid to boost their city. At the same time, some of the quotes went a bit overboard and showed just how out of touch with regional issues these people are. For the millionth time, Troy doesn't exist within a vacuum and it's very existence was contingent upon its location to the larger central city. Everyone needs to remember that with the DDA being no exception. Who I fault most is the irresponsible (at best) newspaper media. This is the third or fourth article in the past few years with the news proporting in their title a "new downtown" for the region. Remember when they tried to make the case (nearly blatantly) that downtown Royal Oak was the "new downtown" of the region, and then went to go find quotes from the locals to support what they were trying to push? It's one thing to be biased, we all are. It's completely another for the news media to be blatantly pushing and wishing for something they want to see happen, especially something as ignoble as this. (Message edited by lmichigan on January 25, 2006) | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 71 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135 |
I agree, LMichigan. The reporter should have written something to balance the glee. Back in 2000, Troy did some work on Big Beaver. I submitted the following questions and received these answers: --------------------- Thank you for your letter dated February 28, 2000. I have some responses for the concerns you have mentioned in the letter: a. Will the expansion plans accommodate shared roadway cycling? - No major streets in the City have this facility of bicyclists sharing the roadway with other traffic. The expansion plans would maintain consistency with what is existing. With speeds on Big Beaver in excess of 45 Miles Per Hour, it may be a challenge to provide a safe shared roadway. On all new projects, the City plans to have a 8 foot sidewalk on one side of the street. b. Will plans accommodate reasonably safe mid-block crossings for cyclists and pedestrians. - Efforts will be made to provide for the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists. Crossings will be limited to the intersections that are signalized (bi-directional) for maximum safety. [snip] Sincerely, John Abraham Traffic Engineer City of Troy ------------------ My response to answer (b) was as follows. There was no response from the City: A pedestrian standing mid-block along most sections of Big Beaver will need to walk a half-mile to the nearest intersection then another half-mile along the opposite side of the street. That's not walkable nor realistic. And, by further widening the road, mid-block road crossing will become more harzardous. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears this "effort" means existing crosswalks and signaling won't be removed. There will be no additional pedestrian/cycling crossings. And non-intersection crossings will become less safe. |
