  Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 300 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060105/NEW S05/601050469 Well, I am probably old school in this regard. The issue of discipline in our community here in Detroit seems to fast becoming a concern about what will our society at large become if young people continue to lose the sense of responsibility and respect for their elders. My dad and mom raised me with very strict discipline in the household. But nowadays, I am thankful for the approach that they took because otherwise, I would have probably ended up with the wrong crowd doing the wrong things at the wrong place. When has it become O.K. for a teenager to take a swing at a parent ? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 780 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.89.12.30 |
teenagers don't take swings at their parents just out of the blue | ||
Kimmiann Member Username: Kimmiann Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 155.139.50.15 |
No, Lilpup, you are correct. Teenagers don't take swings at their parents out of the blue. On the other hand, if a teen knows he's going to get away with it, what's to stop him from expressing his normal, hormonal, out-of-control feelings in such a way? My daughter and I discussed this article earlier today and came to the conclusion that if one feels moved to physical violence, one should learn fairly quickly to duck! At 13, the Hearns kid should have known better. | ||
Bagman Member Username: Bagman Post Number: 39 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.248.14.58 |
Tommy is king his kid is a fool and the law is a JOKE. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 781 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.89.12.30 |
somehow fell onto the bed? and that must have been a hell of a slap with a huge hand to cause such widespread injury in one shot | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 961 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
I dunno... At the same time, kids need a reason to respect their parents who should demand it. I blame the parents for not standing up for themselves and their moral fortitude and not setting a better example as well. If you take your kid to something important, let them know that its not ok to dress like a bum and to put a nice shirt on and some nice pants. Its really easy to beat kids mentally into submission, but what good is it if you dont show them the right way to do things as well? | ||
Mplsryan Member Username: Mplsryan Post Number: 119 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 24.26.164.215 |
I never got smacked or got 'whoopin's'. Neither did most people I know. Violence vs. violence?, don't most kids grow bigger than their parents? If some kids gonna act out, they'll do it with or without 'old fashion discipline.' | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 587 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.212.62.92 |
mplsryan....if there is no medical condition that warrants a kid to act out, a normal upbringing should prevent it in the first place GOD!!!! I wanna smack those children!!!!  | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 301 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.209.133.3 |
"They quarreled about whether it was too cold in the room where the teen was using a computer. Hearns told the boy to turn up the thermostat. His son "got huffy with him" and pushed Hearns, Thomas said. Hearns pushed back." I have heard a lot of accounts from parents of teenagers and also from teachers/school administrators. It is very obvious the level of our moral fabric has deteriorated substantially. Many parents are afraid of their teenagers, and concerned to death but yet worried about not connecting with their teenagers like a buddy. When does it come down to the need for a parent to be their child's 'buddy' ? Teachers and school administrators complain that teenagers these days have absolutely no respect and no sense of responsibility for their own actions as well as how their actions affect others around them. The mentality of 'Me, Myself, and I' is all they care about. School officials have their hands tied as far as how and what they can do to discipline children. So, basically, our society has created its own new generation of citizens who are self-centered and filled with selfish entitlement ..... yet have very little sense of responsibility and respect. I hope some of you here are looking forward to have your child/children disrespect you and get 'huffy', and push you around and taking swings at you. Because that is the direction society is heading - such occurences will be considered normal in the near future. | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 591 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.212.62.92 |
Darwin...bingo!! well said! | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 627 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
My mom and I used to get in all-out hair pulling-fingernail scratchin' cat fights. One Christmas my dad had to actually pull us apart. I just learned not to piss her off. | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 471 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 69.246.29.72 |
An elder, just told me yesterday that in my occupation I need to dress up much more then everyone else because of my youth. He said people have negative feelings about young people today and that I should dress up as much as possible to negate that. I was offended. While what he says may be true in all of America it seems to be more of a problem in black America. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3168 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.222.10.3 |
I feel that kids today, for the most part, are far more spoiled than ever before. Even more so than kids were ten years ago. There is no motivation for the most part. Many parents work, which leaves less time spent with the child so that may have an effect. | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 592 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.212.62.92 |
b/c white kids are on Ritilin... If it were reimbursed by medicare/aid....black kids would be on it too | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 302 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.209.133.3 |
Ever wondered why TV programs such as 'Nanny 911' and 'Super-Nanny' are so well-received, embraced and needed lately ? Food for thought ..... | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 593 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.212.62.92 |
If parents did not relegate the education/upbringing of their offsprings to TV, cable, satellite, Gameboys, XboX360, Playstation, fastfood drive-thrus, etc, the pbs mentioned above would be mitigated. Many of my generation had two working parents but it seems like parental laziiness was much less prevalent than now. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 782 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.89.12.30 |
Ever notice that the nannies on 'Nanny 911' always have to teach parents how to interact with their children and get the most resistance from the adults? and that the nannies don't endorsed corporal punishment? | ||
Iseries840 Member Username: Iseries840 Post Number: 129 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 12.31.43.97 |
Let this be a listen to any children out there. NEVER punch your dad if he has ever held the WBC, WBA or IBF titles. | ||
Shark Member Username: Shark Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.208.240.216 |
And if Dad says it is too cold, turn up the heat, even if you don't want to! | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1168 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
We have created this society now we must live in it. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 304 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.209.133.3 |
Lilpup: You seem to be missing the point again. When I hear from parents and school staff, absolutely nobody is advocating 'corporal punishment' so as to physically hurt a child and emotionally destroy a child's spirit. That is most certainly NOT the intention of the people working with teenagers day in and day out. The adults in these settings aren't being resistant to 'softer' methods. However, the issue here is that many teenagers aren't receptive to such 'softer' techniques. They view themselves as being in control and in command of adults at home and at school. And therefore, parents and school staff are left to do nothing further ..... hence the deterioration of moral values, respect and responsibility as described above - leading to behaviors such as 'taunting' parents, getting 'huffy'(word taken from the Hearns article) and downright hostile. Iseries840 and Shark: Couldn't have said it better. _sj_ : Exactly, we are already living in it right now and this Hearns situation is just one out of many household discipline breakdown events that don't make it into the newspapers or other mass media. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 783 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.89.12.30 |
More likely they don't trust anything or anybody. That happens when kids are left to fend for themselves at an early age. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2951 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
"Ever wondered why TV programs such as 'Nanny 911' and 'Super-Nanny' are so well-received, embraced and needed lately ? Food for thought ....." Amen to that. It speaks volumes of where we've come to stop. I was spanked when I was younger (and later on my dad took it a bit too far, and that's an entire other issue), but was always reinforced after the spaking/whipping with a talk. And by my pre-teen years (when spankings were let go) the fear wasn't from physical discipline from my parents, but disappointing them. IMO, if you are to spank, it should always be explained, and positive reinforcement should always be part of the equation. Discipline should be presented as a preventitive measaure, not after the fact. It should be about preventing bad behaviour, not waiting until it has gotten out of control to where you're simply using discipline as punishment. Too many times, kids AND parents wait until they get into a state of anger (and irrational state to decided to discipline from), and then anything seems to go, both have fallen to the same level. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2228 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
MY thing is... I feel like this, ever situation doesn't warrant some threat of phisical discipline. Like someone said earlier you can get to a kid mentally and sometimes that may be far more effective. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2953 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
That is very true. All situations don't need to be dealt with with physical discipline, or even the threat of physical discipline. But, this whole culture of parents being afraid of their small children (4, 5, 6...year olds) is just ridiculous. If there is any time in life where a firm tap of the hand will be beneficial, it is when they are small. I'm simply amazed having seen a few of these nanny shows on TV where these 5-year-olds are literally pushing their mom and dads, and the look of utter powerlessness on these people's faces. When you give kids control that early, you sure as hell better believe they are going to take it...and run with it. If not corrected very early on, you've already lost the battle. There really is a point of no return, or that point will be taught to that child much later in life when they become adults, but with great pain. I wish my parents would have been afraid of me. Believe you me, in a kids mind that's like a shark tasting blood in the water, or a dog smelling fear on a person. Kids eat that stuff up. | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 192 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 12.207.6.192 |
This is a little off topic, but did Michigan ever allow corporal punishment in its public schools? Did Jjaba ever have to drop trousers in front of the MAN? I know it was still used during the late 80's in Alabama where I spent my 3rd grade year. Funny how I can remember walking by the office to see a small line of children waiting to be paddled. Sad thing it was the same group of faces time and time again, and for them it was just another part of going to school. My best friend's dad who was a teacher in po-dunk Kentucky once told me they were allowed to paddle kids up until high school! While I whole-heartedly DISagree with schools being allowed to use physical discipline, I just think too many youngins simply think they can waltz all over adults when they don't get or hear what they want. (Message edited by hagglerock on January 05, 2006) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 784 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.89.12.30 |
Kids that age resorting to that behavior are often trying to get attention and validation from the parent To these kids provoking a beating (or doling one out) is preferable to continued neglect | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2230 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
And really I think, as a parent, that people who have no kids should stop thinking that they can tell someone else how to raise theirs... You let someone tell me that I cannot spank my child. They raise a hand, may God have mercy on their soul. Momz and popz openly challenged me and my brothers to call CPS when they were whoopin us... And then we wonder why there is such a spike in kids acting all dysfunctional in society and the first thing people want to ask is, "Well where were the parents at?". You raise kids, not pander to them ....Hippocrisy at it's best... | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 305 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.209.133.3 |
Detroit_stylin: Very true. I come across all sorts of individuals in child advocacy groups who have no children of their own but yet claim to know everything there is to know about child psychology and child behavior. And then I speak to a mom and dad who have raised 3 sons and 2 daughters successfully, sent them off to college and are now enjoying grandchildren. Tell me who knows how to RAISE children effectively ..... Too many parents are indeed at the mercy of their children, especially teens. Lmichigan: You are absolutely right on regarding 'a shark tasting blood in the water, or a dog smelling fear on a person'. Unfortunately, we are already experiencing the point of no return for many households whereby the teens are pulling the strings on the puppet doll parents anyway they wish. And if they don't get their way, they get 'huffy' and take swings at their folks, even if the old man was a former boxing champion ! What a sad state that our society if currently in. | ||
Courtney Member Username: Courtney Post Number: 89 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 67.38.11.221 |
As a parent, I don't believe in spanking and see it as an easy "action" said parent can take to make them feel like they are teaching the child a lesson - when in reality, it seems to do little more than create a strong sense of distrust between the child and parent. Of course, other methods require a lot of patience and time. I look at it almost as dog training but with kids. And without the helpful addition of a crate. =) Aside from being way too disconnected and uninolved with their kids, the diets of kids today is just sick. Those nanny shows on tv drive me up the wall - the kids are acting like devils and it never fails that they are shoving candy in their faces throughout the day, and get a nice chemical dinner full of crap not suitable to feed to animals. I think if the kids got a better diet you'd quickly find out that a large number were allergic/sensitive to a lot of common additions in food, like corn syrup, which is revoltingly enough in almost everything. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 225 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 4.229.42.210 |
Yes, Michigan had corporal punishment in the schools until sometime in the 1980s. My kindergarten and first grade teachers used to spank kids all the time, every day. My first grade teacher also washed my friend's mouth out with soap once because my friend said a swear word. This was in the 1970s. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 769 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
I remember seeming kids get a "swat" in the late '60s. (But you got to keep your pants on.) Teachers had a fraternity paddle hanging on the wall. And that was in a public school. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 969 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
Shit, I had alot of personal freedom growing up, as long as my parents got the few things that they demanded of me. If i EVER thought about going out without cleaning the kitchen for example, my old man (6'2 230lbs) would threaten with his hand, and if it was not done BEFORE i went out i got my ass kicked... THerefor I was able to go out and do what I wanted, but I had an enourmous amount of respect for my parents, because I knew that they had ultinmate power over me and I had alot of freedom to lose if I pissed them off... and they werent afraid to take it. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2958 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Yeah, my dad said that his gym teacher used to use a big boot or shoe to punish people in his class, and other's used paddles, and this was in the 60's. He said the shoe stung like mother...well, I won't use his expletive. A heavy shoe/boot seems even excessive to me. lol | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 1527 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.84.183.189 |
I guess as someone who got spanked when I did wrong as a child, I find nothing worng with it BECAUSE when I got my whoopin' I knew I did wrong. Like an earlier poster had mentioned, I was slowly & methodically told as to what I had done wrong and why I was being punished. The majority of my spankings were also done by my dad LONG after he had calmed down and it was never done in a momentary fit of anger. None of my whoopin's were ever meant to leave lasting scars- I look at it as my parents' way to get my attention and make me aware of where I had gone wrong. One other thing that my parents did to me was also to have me observe my brother get a spanking if he had done wrong- it was their way for me to learn through observation. While I'm not a fan of violence towards children in any way shape or form, I sometimes wonder if a spanking is considered truly a violent act. There was never a mistrust built between my parents and us. We knew EXACTLY when we crossed the line and if we were caught (sometimes we weren't!), there were consequences. Even at that age we knew who was the adult in the situation. My parents had ultimate responsibility for my actions. If I did something horribly wrong, they were to be blamed. They took their parenting very seriously (whereas in today's society, TV seems to play a larger parental role). As I grew older they gave me much more freedom and responsibilities but it was because I had earned their respect. Lord knows they earned mine through all of the things they had done for us growing up. | ||
Knocturnal Member Username: Knocturnal Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.176.50.206 |
smogboy u need some lunesta | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 1528 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.84.183.189 |
Knocturnal--you're a fine one to talk! 3:09 AM??? | ||
Ddaydave Member Username: Ddaydave Post Number: 234 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 67.149.185.244 |
as a kid I sometimes had the choice between the spanking and being grounded I always took the spanking ..that was done and over with in minutes the grounding took a week.. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 307 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
As we can tell from the responses above, those of us who are now in our ripe old age, can attest to the fact that being 'spanked' didn't at all caused us any permanent mental damage. On the flip side, we have tremendous respect for our parents and our elders. As Alexei289 said above, because of his parents' strict parenting rules, he would not think of pissing them off. It is this type of respect that we have lost in our teenagers these days. As Smogboy said above, he was made to observe his siblings being spanked, so as not to repeat the same misconducts. Our teenagers have absolutely no respect these days for authority. In fact, they tend to challenge authority. If you are a parent who prefers not to spank your child, it is your prerogative. At the end of the day, if your son/daughter is involved with unplanned pregnancy, doing drugs, abusing alcohol, involved in an auto accident due to speeding and not following traffic laws, please do not blame the media, the government, your neighbors and etc. Blame yourself. We have seen more school shootings within the past 6-8 years than any other stretch of time. Most put blame on video games. But who are the ones giving in to their child by PURCHASING those items ? Video games are expensive(a new console costs more than $300 and new games are often priced at $49 a piece) Blame yourself. Some blame TV programs and music. Well, who is in charge of PURCHASING those items ? Blame yourself. It is truly sad that it has come to the point in our lifetime where it is O.K. for a 13-year-old to get 'huffy' with his old man and taking a swing, just because dad asked that the thermostat be adjusted ! Imagine what kind of footing parents in the future would have, if they can't even ask to have the temperature increased in their house !! (Message edited by darwinism on January 06, 2006) | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 629 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
Funny corporal punishment story (?), I was sitting at a bar talking to some folks when I mentioned that my dad was a principal on the east side for a couple of years. The 40-ish guy next to me asked where, I told him Bunche and Berry. He asked me my last name and when I told him his eyes lit up and he said "He was my principal, he used to paddle me!" | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 789 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
"The reports I've read," Gorcyca said, "indicate the child was coming to his mother's defense." http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=2005601060351 but it seems to be ok to hit women around here, too. The responses to this incident show what's really fukked up and why there's so much violence (by adults and youths) in the area. Respect has to go both ways. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 308 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
Lilpup: Where in the legal proceeding in this Hearns situation did you find spousal abuse as part of the prosecution case, when you mentioned, "but it seems to be ok to hit women around here, too" ? From today's news report, here is the part I wish more parents would take note: Barbara D. Watson, 73, of Detroit, recalled that when her son, now 36, was in high school, he threatened her, under his breath. He was about 230 pounds and 5 foot 11, she said. But she "moved up in his face" and told him that she was not going to let him "chase me and whip me," she said. In fear, she said, he looked away. She said she did not have to smack him, but she would have if necessary. She explained: "As Bill Cosby says, 'I brought you into this world, I can take you out.' " (Message edited by darwinism on January 06, 2006) | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 311 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
It was also interesting to read some of the feedback responses from area parents: http://freep.typepad.com/comme nts/2006/01/former_boxing_c.ht ml | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 790 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.89.12.30 |
The assumption that the boy is the problem, without any consideration of possible extenuating circumstances for his behavior, reveals the attitudes around here. We will see what the legal proceedings reveal. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1170 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Ever wonder why Childhood is getting shorter and shorter | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2966 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Darwin, I wouldn't go quite as far as you are, though. While children as becoming more unruly, there are times when parents have gotten out of hand and crossed the line turning a spanking into a full-fledged beating. I can definitely see where some may be against the whole idea, since a spanking/whooping can become a beating. | ||
Senior Member Username: Senior Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 66.90.230.145 |
Ah, yes, I remember it well.... We were in Miss Vaughan's sixth grade Social Studies class at Hamilton Elementary.... A few of us were acting the fool, and fortunately Richard Didur was the one Miss Vaughan picked up by the throat, lifted him about a foot off the floor, and rattled his head against the blackboard. For as long as I can remember, I never heard of any further problems in Miss Vaughan's classes. Richard Didur turned out to be an outstanding student, and the rest of us, especially myself, learned a lesson that has lasted a lifetime.... the lesson occurred in 1946. Senior | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 1530 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.84.183.189 |
I actually heard this topic discussed on WDFN (sports radio!) of all things. One thing that I thought was interesting was the point that there is a difference between a spanking and hitting. While it might be semantics and the difference very tough to haggle in a court of law, I think if parents were fair, firm, honest and would be parents again, many of these issues would not arise. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 312 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.209.133.3 |
Lmichigan: I don't think that we, as a society nowadays, can go very far by any length of the imagination when it comes to youth discipline, period. I am not denying that sporadically, a small number of parents may indeed spank way too hard. However, in order to qualify as child abuse, the law should take a closer look at the history of parental track record. Just because Thomas Hearns reacted to his son's assault, shouldn't be grounds for a case in court. If Thomas Hearns is a child abuser and there is evidence of him neglecting his son's needs in school and at home, not housing him, feeding him, clothing him and repeatedly hurts him physically, mentally and emotionally ..... well then, charge the man with child abuse and send the champ to prison for a few years. Anything short of that, don't label it as child abuse because kids pick up on this BS and they run with it. Let's be upfront here, if a parent is legally responsible for the child's behavior including financial liability in the event of compensatory and punitive damages, then they should be legally allowed to make sure the child acts appropriately. But the law doesn't protect the parent that way, any sign of physical punishment is immediately considered an abuse. As a matter of fact, the word is so loosely used that teenagers are now 'abusing' the word 'abuse'. For example, I had a conversation with a Catholic high school dean of students not too long ago. He told me that a 12th Grader had violated dress code policies in regards to the length of his hair. Multiple warnings and detentions have been issued over the course of a few weeks. No change whatsoever. So, the dean took a pair of scissors to help shorten this kid's hair. Guess what happen next, people ? The boy threatened lawsuit claiming that he had been physically 'abused'. Now that is just one story among hundreds and thousands. That is where we currently stand in America. Adults no longer have rights whatsoever, parents or school officials, none. I hope those of you who are against spanking look forward to a country where school shootings, household murders, theft, drugs, rape, robbery are just regular routine events in the neighborhood. So, Lmichigan, you don't need to be going quite as far as I, because to be frank, nobody is going far these days. | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 574 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
This entire topic reminds me of my bus rifing days when I heard a teenager talking about a scolding that her mother had given her and placed her on punishment. The girls were talking about what they would have done if that were them. I even heard one say "If my mother spanked me I will be taking her to court, that bitch know she better not hit me cuz i got too many rights" Back in my day if those words came out of my mouth and if i ever ended up in court because of "my rights" , my ass would have been beat all the way from the court room to the house until my mother got out of jail. LOL | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 794 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
"So, the dean took a pair of scissors to help shorten this kid's hair." This is inappropriate behavior on the dean's part. An appropriate response would have been to suspend the kid. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 313 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
Lilpup: The kid HAD ALREADY served suspensions, multiple times, in fact. Any other ideas for appropriate responses ? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 795 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
expulsion | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2969 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
In Lilpup's world, the child runs roughshod all over the parents and society...oh wait, that's reality in this country for most. Seriously, if you're going to restrict parents to one form of punishment (i.e. grounding the kids and sending them to their rooms, what a punishments *sarcasm*), than we've already lost society for the forseeable future, and this is coming from a young guy, and one that recognizes that I live in a county where the freedom to choose is something this country was founded upon. That is a freedom that should go all the way down to childrearing. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 796 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
on the contrary - the children learn respect, work for what they want, and there's very little violence | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 314 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
Lilpup: Jackpot ! The conclusion of the story does indeed come down to the sad result of having to expel a senior(12th Grader) in high school 8 months short of graduation. So, in essence, due to pressure from opinions like yours that it is inappropriate to snip 2 inches of hair length, a teenager is now starting over at a new school, in a new environment, among new peers and new faculty - and you are telling us that this boy is better off because expulsion would be an appropriate response ? I guess it sure makes a whole lot of sense ..... no wonder the American society is a laughing stock in the eyes of the global community. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 797 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
"opinions like yours that it is inappropriate to snip 2 inches of hair length, a teenager is now starting over at a new school, in a new environment, among new peers and new faculty - and you are telling us that this boy is better off because expulsion would be an appropriate response ?" he made the choice and if he indeed is a senior he is old enough to be aware of the consequences (Message edited by lilpup on January 07, 2006) | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 315 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
Lilpup, yes you are absolutely correct that this boy chose that upon himself. Think about it for a moment ..... it was obvious prior to expulsion that this kid needs discipline due to his inability to choose the right from the wrong. The adults, in this case the people at the school and at home, obviously needs to straigthen this kid out. Are you saying that as a society we should just watch our youths make wrong decisions and not do anything about it because its the youths' choice to make ? Do you realize that all these federal/state/local programs for juvenile delinquents cost money ? Lots of money that you are paying for ? Why allow something like this to occur when the end result is going to be losses to someone's life, someone's wallet and perhaps even worse scenarios along the way if this kid ends up not making the correct decisions again going behind the wheels while intoxicated ? All the above scenarios may sound hypothetical, but they are not. Pay attention to the wooden crosses draped with flowers and stuffed animals on the side of the highway - some of them are scenes of teenagers making choices - wrong choices. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2178 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.21.70 |
I think Lilpup is right. The senior had somehow reached 17 without fully understanding the principle of cause and effect. It's better that the student's senior year be disrupted a bit, or a lot, and the lesson about following the rules be learned at 17 instead of 27 or 47. As a parent of three I've spanked a few times but I've found it to be no more effective than non-physical discipline. It also caused a detectable rift in the trust between me and my 5 y/o daughter. I now think that "Daddy" is supposed to be the one who makes the hurt go away, not the one who brings it home. And the glaring contradiction inherent in "Don't hit your brother again or I'll spank you" isn't lost on a smart kid. Kids of all ages have their levers, their hot buttons that can be used when discipline is needed. For my daughter it's certain books and videos that she LOVES. She knows specific behaviors will inevitably result in losing favorite books/videos temporarily or forever. That's more effective than the spankings were for me. A friend with a teenager takes the car keys away. That works too. The cops fine us and/or lock us up. Another (usually ;)) non-violent technique that works. Spanking ought to be a choice left up to the parents, but I really think that it's not the best way to discipline. It's also not a very fun aspect of parenting. For the real hardheaded teens I've read of parents stripping their bedroom down to a mattress and one change of clothes, that's IT. Beans and rice for them 3X a day. Tough love but it can't fail to get their attention. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 798 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
If this kid has had the previous warnings, detentions, and suspensions (as you wrote) without any effect then those trying to 'straighten' him out will not be successful. They are ineffective, for whatever reason. The change of scenery might do the kid good. He might end up with a counselor who works well with him or perhaps he will be out from under whatever pressure he feels at that particular school. For all you know he never wanted to go there in the first place and doesn't want his degree from there. Or perhaps he's afraid of graduating and having to move on in life. No one can affect a kid's behavior until they understand what causes it. Odds are no one has honestly taken the time to discuss his behavior with him, short of telling him what to do. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 316 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
Lilpup, you said that "No one can affect a kid's behavior until they understand what causes it" - I fully agree with that. As of last week, the dean of students and I have not heard any good news from the kid's new school. His grades in the Fall semester of 2005 are mediocre to say the least. We are still hoping that the change of scenery will do him some good. The hope sails on ..... Here's the problem facing many parents and school officials - kids are becoming less and less concerned about consequences. Kids are less and less reflective of their own behavior because they seek immediate satisfaction and immediate fulfillment. Parents and school officials have been using 'soft' approaches for the past few decades since corporal punishment was abolished in Michigan. I want to ask those who were born before 1975 to examine the trend of society over the past 25-30 years as far as youth behavior goes. Are our younger generation, especially teenagers, better off as responsible, respectable and contributing members of the American society ? Give us some examples. Are our schools and family units achieving greater successes of their objectives ? Are students in general performing better academically ? Or are they doing worse ..... less of them being able to read and write well ..... less of them being able to do math well ..... and etc. ? Many people who are armchair quarterbacking issues relating to discipline and children are making ONE very big assumption that is vitally wrong - they assume that children, even teenagers, have the MATURITY and LOGICAL SEASONED MINDSET to reason appropriately, to discuss/reflect effectively, to understand cause & effect, to understand long-term consequences and so on. Do you think that most 16 or 17 year-olds consider planning beyond the next few months to a year at best ? Most don't even care about anything beyond the next 2-3 weeks ! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 799 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
I knew a guy who was sweet, gentle mannered, good looking, and incredibly booksmart. Toward the end of high school he started acting out, but finished school and was accepted to college. A year or two into college he overdosed and landed in rehab. Three weeks into rehab he shot himself. Over 20 years later while talking to some of his relatives I sugggested the possibility that he was gay (which I suspected from knowing him and who he hung out with). The firm response from the family members was "his dad would have beat it out of him." I think you would have gotten along well with his dad. And yes, I was born before 1975. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 317 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
Lilpup, I think you are an intelligent enough of a person to sense that I am not at all supporting Thomas Hearns if he was indeed abusing his spouse. In fact, I would be the first in line to ask that he be put behind bars. Along the same notion, I am also confident that you are wise enough to know that all along I am addressing policies and BS laws that are regulating how parents should managed their own household. Parents' hands SHOULD NOT be tied to this extent when they are going to be required to perform parenting duties or else pay the federal/state/local agencies for services rendered due to their child's actions. Let's be reasonable here, Lilpup, you can't have it both ways - Either give the parents the ability to get the job done, or else others can get the job done instead WITHOUT penalizing the parents. Why should parents be in a Catch-22 position, damn if you do and damn if you don't ? That is how society is today, blame EVERYTHING on the parents. Would you like to be a parent who takes blame no matter what ? Would you like to be a school administrator who takes blame no matter what ? And the example you shared above ..... for all intent purposes, I have gay friends. A few have families who haven't talked to them for years. But that doesn't give a gay individual rights to act out in school, does it ? Perhaps in your school being gay = a passport to act out, negatively affecting the learning environment without regards to other kids. Very selfish philosophy, don't you think ? Help me understand the rationale behind your position in all these situations. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 800 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
So it's ok to abuse a child but not a spouse? And children are always wrong, even when they haven't been adequately taught how to express themselves or haven't been is positive, nuturing environments? | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 318 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
Huh ? What are you talking about ? "So it's ok to abuse a child but not a spouse?" - No, it is NOT right to abuse anybody ... child, spouse, animals, buildings - would you please read the words carefully. "And children are always wrong, even when they haven't been adequately taught how to express themselves or haven't been is positive, nuturing environments?" - Again, it is becoming clear to me that you have trouble taking off your blinders and admitting your flawed arguments. I am talking about policies ... P-O-L-I-C-I-E-S ... and I am far from saying that children are always wrong. Nobody is always wrong, nobody is always right, either. That is why we should not mandate laws that govern how each parent could and could not handle their own household. Stop insulting the many moms and dads in Metro Detroit and consider them all to be psychotic men or women out to beat the crap out of a kid. You know darn well the majority of moms and dads have the ability to manage their own household without the assistance of the law enforcement agencies. I have worked with people that uses the same lines as you on many separate occasions, "they haven't been adequately taught how to express themselves or haven't been in positive, nurturing environments" ..... yeah right, high school age teens ? Come on, give me a break. Why don't you come up with something more original ... thanks for your participation anyway, though. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 801 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.195 |
You're right, a lot of parents can manage their own households and raise good, honest, motivated, secure, and respectful kids. Those parents aren't the ones having to deal with school officials or law enforcement about their kids' behavior. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 319 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
Yes, indeed, kids who have parents discipline them appropriately at home usually aren't the ones causing problems in school, or getting in trouble with the police. That is why we need to allow parents the ability to do so, otherwise education can't take place at school due to the focus being channeled towards disciplinary problems. Likewise, cops have more than enough issues to handle rather than dealing with teenage disciplinary duties. Some additional articles of interests from the Free Press below: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060106/NEW S05/601060323 http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060107/OPI NION04/601070312 http://freep.typepad.com/comme nts/2006/01/former_boxing_c.ht ml Once again, allow me to reiterate the fact that many of the details in the legal proceedings are still rather murky. If this was indeed a case of domestic violence, whereby Thomas Hearns hurt his spouse, then I will change my position in this matter. However, at this moment, there has been absolutely no report whatsoever regarding that and somehow many are comfortable making unsubstantiated assumptions in order to support a kid punching a parent. What a slap in the face towards Metro Detroit parents ! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 803 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 66.89.12.30 |
How about a case of domestic violence where Thomas Hearns hurt his son? | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 320 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
"How about a case of domestic violence where Thomas Hearns hurt his son?" Please refer to my post #312 above: If Thomas Hearns is a child abuser and there is evidence of him neglecting his son's needs at home and in school, not housing him, feeding him, clothing him and repeatedly hurts him physically, mentally and emotionally ..... well then, charge the man with child abuse and send the champ to prison for a few years. So, basically, if it is indeed child abuse ..... it is about time the court of law demands more to substantiate the case. Without sufficient evidence of neglect, I say those who advocate letting kids choose the wrong friends, letting kids choose to be expelled from school, letting kids choose unruly behavior, letting kids choose to do crime but have their parents do time - those are the real child abusers. | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 382 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 69.212.32.126 |
Parents in this day and age do not know how to parent....point blank. I remember back in my day, children respected their parents.....actually they respected any and all adults, especially teachers! Now, they do not even respect teachers. They actually cuss out teachers. And you want to know why....because todays parents do not know how to raise children. You have children from all backgrounds acting like damn fools out there. Read the papers people. When you read about someone getting robbed, or carjacked, or their house being broken into, I swear it seems like 90 percent of the time it is teenagers. You read all the time about teenagers making bombs in their parents basements or even calling in death threats to schools. My kids tell me all the time about kids cussing out teachers in their school. I WISH I WOULD GET THAT PHONE CALL FROM A TEACHER!!! Shiiiit......my kids better not never ever ever think about it. I remember back in the day children couldn't even go into a room where adult folks were sitting and talking. We would get into so much trouble. But nowadays, you all teach your kids that "they are people too and they deserve alot of respect". Believe me, my kids used to come home and try that crap too... and I would look at them like they were crazy. Don't get me wrong, my children get what they need and they live a wonderful life. And I can say they do respect me. They don't get into any trouble ( 1 is 16 and the other is 17 and graduating this year). I raise my children with an iron fist....yes I do. But this is a really rough world out here, and I have enough stress in my life that I don't need them to be out there being stupid and causing more. A child gets to a certain age where you can basically do nothing with them. If you do not discipline them at a young age, then you are screwed. When they become teenagers...watchout. Think about it. Fear is the key. I was raised to fear the Lord...it's in the Bible to fear him. When you fear someone, you think twice about what you do. If your children do not fear you.....they will do whatever they want....no serious consequence, no big deal. That's why I never believed in time outs. I would never abuse my kids, but I will woop their ass on ocassion. I've been around alot of parents who did not believe in spanking their children. Man, in public, those kids would cuss at their parents and act a damn fool. Here is an example of what I heard one day and I will never forget it: Mother: Ashley, go get your bag out of the locker room so we can go home. Daughter: If you want it, go get it yourself. Mother: Now Ashley, please I am tired, go get your bag. Daughter: (yelling) I said no, I don't feel like it you go get the damn bag yourself. Mother: Please Ashley, don't do this. Daughter: (still yelling) Leave me alone! (At this point I turned to the mother and said, "I'm going to turn my head now, so when you smack the shit out of her, I am not a witness) Needless to say, she didn't do anything because she didn't believe in spanking her kid. She threatened to take away things and put her on punishment, but it didn't matter....Mother went to get that bag. All I have to say is SHIIIIIIT! Yall better recognize..... | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2267 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Bratt man I see that so much in places like supermarkets and it makes ME wanna slap the shyt outta someone else's kidz... If there is one thing I cannot stand is a bad azz kid. I mean kidz will be kidz and you do have to chastise them as the situation permits... but situations like those call for a little more than a simple time out... | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 321 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
Bratt and Detroit_stylin: That is exactly the type of behavior which propagates towards disobedience in the society during the teenage years. I do consultancy work with law enforcement agencies, education agencies, business advisory organizations, and many other sectors. It is so sad to hear from teachers who are ripping out their hair roots at this point, due to the amount of time and energy going towards discipline rather than academics. Bratt, you are absolutely correct, that way too many parents DO NOT KNOW how to take control. It becomes even worse when the court system wants to manage your household for you. It seems that 'tough love' isn't the preferred method of discipline these days, but rather 'abandonment' is the method in style. Time-outs is to abandon the child for short period of time, expulsion is to abandon the child long-term. And the statements made above to support expulsion is "the kid chose that route". Come on, as an adult, please don't tell me that you would knowingly and consciously allow a kid to choose the wrong thing - that is THE ABSOLUTE COLDEST form of child abuse. A few excerpts from the Free Press blog: "Posted by Wayne | Jan 6, 2006 3:01:55 PM Hearn's son is nearly 6 ft tall and a constant problem in the middle school he attends. Since when, since the beginning of time, can a child hit their parent without immediate retaliation. There are lines that one do not cross. This time is happened to a former boxing champ. If Hearns had not "checked" his son as he did, his son would have lost all respect for him as a man. Hearns must have constrained himself somewhat, or his son would not have answered the bell." "Posted by John Morrison | Jan 6, 2006 12:47:47 PM My son is 22 years old. He is currently incarcerated in the Santa Clara County Jail in San Jose, CA. He has been in and out of jail and juvenile facilities for the last 7 years. When he was 15, he inexplicably became violent in our home. He began throwing things, leaving holes in walls. He once physically ejected my wife from his room. I had to physically intervene with him a number of times. I finally suffered a minor heart attack during one such episode. I was in the hospital for 4 days. On my first night home, during another altercation, he punched me square in the chest. The police officers looked for marks on my chest. Because there were none, they said there was nothing they could do. In other words, my son could punch me in the chest after suffering a heart attack, but they would haul me off to jail at the slightest sign of my touching him. I was beside myself. I had a police officer tell me "Whatever you do, don't touch him. He's trying to bait you right into jail. With the way things are now, we won't have a choice". I finally had no choice but to evict him when he turned 18. We could no longer deal with it, and we couldn't get help from anybody. I sometimes think if I had been able to physically deal with him, he may not be in the position he is today. He understood that the system would protect him, and he used it to his advantage. If I had used force to stop his behavior, I would have been the one sitting in a jail cell. I am a former Marine, and I hate to say this, but some people "wake up" when they've had a good ass kicking. I certainly am not advocating abuse, but there needs to be a way to determine what is honest to god abuse, and what is physically disciplining an out-of-control teenager. I have no problem with what Thomas Hearns did." "Posted by Michelle Hamilton | Jan 6, 2006 11:25:47 AM I truly believe society as a whole is loosing their mind. Since when does a child have more rights then the Parents that are raising them. If they commit a crime or destroy property the Parent is held liable. That's why kids nowadays are so disrespectful and fear no one, not even their parents, because they know they can press charges against them. I raise my Son to know that all actions have consequences. Maybe its no tv or outside time, because kids do make mistakes. But If I have to beat his behind for something, that's a mistake he better not make again. Plus if he did call the Police,I would tell the Police to have a seat and would gladly go with them once I beat his behind again. I carried him for nine months and birth him and no Judge, Jury or Police are going to tell me how to disipline a disrespectful boy that will become a Man One Day." "Posted by Chris Prater | Jan 6, 2006 9:13:48 AM Certainly, I am not an advocate for any sort of violence, but I do believe that there is a stark contrast between violence, and dicipline, especially when it comes down to the respect of a child to a parent. Certainly his son needed some sence knocked into him, if he was foolish enough to raise up against his father number one, and a former world boxing champion at that. If his son had enough in him to act that way, how much more would he do with say a teacher, school oficial, or any other member in society. In our current social environment, I beleive he got off easy, the streets aren't quite as forgiving...!" | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 383 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 64.148.228.104 |
You have to start at a very young age...I'm telling you. If your child knows that you would never put your hands on them...then they will test you to all ends. Society is f'ed up. An Adult will go to jail because they used a cuss word in front of a group of children....but children can walk around all damn day and cuss and nothing would happen to them. It is so messed up. A teenager can jump on your ass right now at the corner store, and because they are a minor, you better not touch them....and I say bull pucky! America bettter wake up...it ain't brain surgery. They say that children that get their asses whooped grow up to be violent criminals. These people don't know shiiit. My generation, we all got our butts tore up, and I don't know one violent criminal. We are all hard working adults. Our parents put FEAR in us which taught us right from wrong. Think about it....if a child knows that they can do wrong, and nothing is going to happen to them, then why not? Duh? I do not believe in abuse, HOWEVER, if I see my child in the corner playing with matches, I am going to give him a butt spanking like there is no tomorrow. And trust me, the next time he sees a book of matches, he would not even think about touching them. Now, if instead I told him he had to go to his room and think about what he has done and not come out for 1 hour.....let's see. What's in his room....a color tv, a dvd, playstation, games, toys....so he's thinking this isn't too bad. So the next time he sees a book of matches, he says, well I am going to have fun now and sure I will get in trouble, but it won't be that bad. THAT'S WHY THESE CHILDREN ARE SO MESSED UP! They know the consequences, they know that they are going to get in trouble. But the punishment isn't that bad, it is something that would be WORTH IT! Yall betta recognize... | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 193 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 12.207.6.192 |
Bratt, Amen to that! | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 323 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.208.124.80 |
If only parents were allowed to do more, and children would have respected school, respected adults/authorities, perhaps these stories would not have been ..... http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060116/NEW S11/60116009 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0 ,2933,181581,00.html Is there any reason teens refuse orders from the authorities these days ? I am deeply saddened by incidents like these, because I have children too and it would be a shame to be unable to steer my own child away from such grim possibilities due to legal obstruction in how I should/shouldn't manage my own household. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 619 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.209.156.44 |
I don't know, I think that kid had some balls taking a swing at a professional boxer. | ||
Billybbrew Member Username: Billybbrew Post Number: 115 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.195 |
I got my ass whipped by my dad's hand and the belt as a kid, and I'm a better person for it. At no time was it ever done undeservedly and it was always my actions or my smart mouth that got me in trouble. I am not tramautized by this, nor am I violent person, in fact, I'm more pacifist than anything. We just have to realize that every child is unique and different punishments work for different children. My parents never abused me in any way, they never spoke badly of me, always encouraged me, taught me respect, but if I got out of line, I knew what to expect and that was the belt....If you don't take control when your kids are young, you'll never have it later and they will likely not have respect for their elders... |
