Aiw
Member Username: Aiw
Post Number: 5192 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.92.101.177
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 1:49 pm: | |
Today over at Detroit Funk about 1/2 way down the page, there are new photos of the Lee Plaza without the green roof. The copper has been completely removed... Sad. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 9653 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:00 pm: | |
Yep, that dude over at South of 8 Mile reported it stripped a few weeks ago. He was just too damn lazy to go take pictures of it. Also, not sure if dETROITfUNK has got on it yet or not, but the artist who did the UA is now doing a building over at Fort and Livernois. He has a "We've moved" announcement on the UA. Quite a few of the windows have already be painted up on the new digs. |
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026
Post Number: 293 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.10.63.140
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:04 pm: | |
dETROITfUNK has photos of the "weve moved announement" up in todays post as well...and SS he gives credit to you for reporting the Lee Plaza stripped FIRST |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2099 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.137
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:47 pm: | |
Well that's it for the Lee Plaza. Cost of restoration will be next to impossible and irreparable damage will now follow. It amazes me how whoever did that, did it unnoticed. No action pictures; just gone one day. It had to be a complex, lengthy and dangerous task considering there are no elevators. Like the famous removal of the lions and other appointments, it just happens. Poof, it's gone. The careless danger to pedestrians created by these thieves is so thoughtless, particularly with the high school across the street. |
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 162 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.134
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:09 pm: | |
My grandfather (1895-1979) worked at the Lee Plaza as a painter/decorator for about ten years in the 1950's. He took some photos of the interior back then. I'm gonna have to wander over to my mother's to see if she still has them; will post if I can find 'em. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 576 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.117.147
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:37 pm: | |
Here ya go Sport - Fisher Body Murals (new UA) I even dared to eat at the Taco Bell across the street from it ! LOL (aka: "keeping it real") I just helped move a tenant (the largest paying tenant - uh oh...) from the Book Tower yesterday, and I was shocked to notice a great deal of copper missing from the peaks of the Book Caddy as well. Interesting to note that Lee Plaza was sealed immediately AFTER the roof stripping was complete. I also heard from a little bird that when Metro Times was in LP doing the article on DetroitBlog.org , there was a great number of scavanged terracotta details lined up ready to go on the floor near the open window on the west facade. These details are around many of the windows, and they have been disappearing at a very steady rate as well. |
Bertz Member Username: Bertz
Post Number: 484 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.61.15.89
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:49 pm: | |
More evidence that the vast majority of Detroiters don't give 2 shits about anything |
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026
Post Number: 298 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.10.63.140
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:51 pm: | |
uh oh, where did the tenant move to Mauser? stay in detroit i hope?? |
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 382 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.21.204
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:56 pm: | |
Maybe the Lee Plaza terra cotta will show up on eBay if it hasn't been there already. Or on a new apartment or condo on Chicago. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1598 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.80
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 4:14 pm: | |
The roof was not just gone one day, it has been disappearing a little bit at a time. Scrappers are people that have all the time in the world. I commute to A2 twice a week, and see the LP as I bank the curve on the bridge from I 96 to I 94. I had noticed last week that the last of the copper on the south side was gone. I don't think that this means that the bldg is unrepairable, but as it is city owned, I predict demolition by neglect. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 577 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.250
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 4:37 pm: | |
Brighton is where they moved to - The Book is suffering too many issues. Small, outdated, too many floods down the elevator shafts (try moving out while theyre pumping out those sub-basements!) and recently a flurry of utility shut-off notices. Its a law office, all of the clients moved away from the City and dont want to deal with the hassle of getting in and out town to do business. So away they went. Yeah, I was wondering too how they handle those giant slabs of copper. When you are up on that roof face to face, those panels are a LOT bigger than they look from the ground. Its also windy as all get-out up there. A nice gust catching one of those panels would slice a man in two. And as Lowell points out, a great deal of debris did indeed fall to the ground in the process - mostly on the Grand Boulevard side, by the front door. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2866 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:19 pm: | |
If I wasn't a fan of logic, I would swear the city is paying (cheaply) people to take the building apart literally peice by peice, or is simply letting this happen to the building so it will be easier to bring down. So, how long do you guys suspect it will be until the urban, human scavengers pick this thing down to the steel/concrete frame? As someone said, this says volumes about the general attitude of the city and its residents. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. For this not to have been front page (or just major) news (i.e. the complete stripping of a prominent high-rise roof) leaves little guessing as to how the majority of the people in the neighborhood and city feel about it. Hell, why stop at unoccupied buildings? Why don't the people just disassemble the whole, damn city and ship it out to Chicago? Yeah, I'm angry, and increasingly unhopeful about my birth city. |
Patrick Member Username: Patrick
Post Number: 3143 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.222.10.3
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:52 pm: | |
Does copper get that much money from scrap yards? Is it big money? These guys are risking their necks to climb to the top of an abandoned building just for copper? Cant they find a job flipping burgers or something? |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2868 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:58 pm: | |
You don't have to understand their logic beyond that these people are obviously hustlers, something this city (and most inner-cities) have a lot of because of lack of decent paying jobs, other opportunities, and general hope. You better believe that stripping copper roofs isn't the only thing they are involved in. Hustler's hands are forever in different cookie jars, if you know what I mean. The only thing you need to understand about them is their insatiable desire for money, without the means to adequate means to aquire it 'legally.' |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 579 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.93.31
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 6:29 pm: | |
Yes, the market for scrap metals currently is worth the effort. Copper, silver and other metals are being used up in our military engagement in the middle east. Not just full metal jacket ammo, but all sorts of electronic applications. Silver, for example, has gone up several dollars an ounce since the war started. (anyone who knows about collecting coins will remember steel pennies from WWII) My father-in-law is a part time scrapper in his retirement. Scrappers are not all evil, many collect metals in legal ways. Much is discarded in trash and takes a bit of effort to reclaim. |
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289
Post Number: 937 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 7:59 pm: | |
well back in the 20s... it was fairly simple to make money legally. In todays world, with all the regulation and other bullshit that goes along with running a business, without significant resources, most people cannot even think about this. It goes to show how many smart people there are out there... and how that talent is so wasted because our country cant get its shit together.. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2869 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 8:09 pm: | |
Yeah, the cost of construction is getting higher by the month. In fact, many of the new high-rises in Las Vegas have been cancelled in large part to rising construction (material/labor) costs. Scrapping is lucrative, legal or illegal. |
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.97.102
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 8:12 pm: | |
Bet Kwame knows where the roof went. |
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64
Post Number: 180 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.65.11.254
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 9:26 pm: | |
So whats left under it? Is it wood or some other material? |
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 87 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 24.231.201.120
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 9:48 pm: | |
This is awful... not that just the roof got stolen, but because there was few preventitive measures done to seek out the scrappers of this building. If people can get away with taking an entire roof, I can only imagine what can be done on other buildings. The underside is aluminum if my memory serves me correctly. I toured Lee Plaza last year and have pictures of the attic. I'll try and post a link to those photos. Removal of the roof will not likely doom the structure. The interior plasterwork and just about everything non-structural is already destroyed and would have to be removed reguardless in the case of a renovation. This was because the windows were removed. The attic floor is all concrete. I'm fairly certain there are water drains so that there will be no flooding up there. However, it wouldn't suprise me if the pipes are damaged and the water will just pour into the building below. I'm worried that the removal of the roof will make the building less appealing developers. It would be a horrible shame if this building was demolished. You wouldn't believe the views from that building... absolutely astonishing. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2870 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 10:04 pm: | |
I don't know if removing the roof makes it look any worse. It may make it a little less noticable, but to be honest, the thing looked bad (condition-wise) before the theft of the copper roof. The breaking of all of the windows had already taken this down to being a very undesirable structure. Usually, as long as a building has its windows in tact people will have some hope for it. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 580 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.69.203
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 11:13 pm: | |
I put together a small gallery page of images from inside the roof, and a few views from the roof. The views show the Fisher, MCS and downtown. THE LEE PLAZA These are from January 2004, just about two years ago. You can see that somebody did try to peel some copper from the roof on the inside of the "M" that the long peaks create. I dont remember any aluminum under the copper, just tar or tar paper. From inside the attic cavities you can see that the roof is constructed with concrete panels that the copper is connected to. There is one shot down one of the long sides of the attic. BTW, I looked at some images of Book Caddy roof from 2003, and I was mistaken about the copper on the roof. There is definitely some peeled off, but it looks exactly the same then as it does now. I was just looking from a new angle recently that made me think there was more missing. My bad. |
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 88 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 24.231.201.120
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 11:37 pm: | |
Yes, the copper between the peaks has been gone for awhile. My bad on the confusion of the material inside the attic. Both visits I made to the building were in the afternoon to get sunset photos, so all I could see was a gray underside. Some interior shots: http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/l eeplaza/ Skyline Views: http://www.urbanplanet.org/for ums/index.php?showtopic=14901 (Message edited by wolverine on December 28, 2005) |
Neilr Member Username: Neilr
Post Number: 159 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.242.215.65
| Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 11:42 pm: | |
Thank you, Mauser765, for posting your photos. I think your shot of the Michigan Central Station looming up through the fog is other-worldly. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2873 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 1:13 am: | |
BTW, how many floors lie above the 15th floor (last residential floor)? It looks like maybe two more. And, does the first floor have a mezzanine/balcony, or is it just a very tall floor? |
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 89 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 24.231.201.120
| Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 1:21 am: | |
If you are referring to the part with the small squre windows beneath the attic, it's a half floor that was used for mechanical stuff Here's a pic, it's kind of bad becuase there was a lot of dust in the air. http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/m echanical.jpg Edit: I thought you were talking about the floor beneath the attic. The first floor has a small mezzanine. But elsewhere, yes, it is a tall floor. (Message edited by wolverine on December 28, 2005) (Message edited by wolverine on December 28, 2005) |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1600 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.120
| Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 2:01 am: | |
I would have to question those who make such statements as this: "More evidence that the vast majority of Detroiters don't give 2 shits about anything" What exactly have you done to make Detroit a better place? (Besides moving your lips and fingers and sitting on your ass in front of a computer) I wish that there was more activisim in the area around the Lee Plaza, but the truth is that this a neighborhood where most folks are more preoccupied with surviving than with a copper roof. I also wish that the city wasn't so damn dysfunctional, and that the people at the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office could have gotten this building onto their Nuisance Abatement Auction List a few years ago. But the truth is this: The Lee Plaza is a huge white elephant in a part of the city where there is very, very little outside investment. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 1689 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.147.82
| Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 5:16 am: | |
Damn, I knew we should have gotten a couple of gallons of WD-40 and soaked the roof before it was taken. Scavengers would have taken the outside express elevator down.... |
Goat Member Username: Goat
Post Number: 7965 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.228.201.179
| Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 12:35 pm: | |
Thanks Mauser and Wolverine. It sure likes like more damage and theft has taken place inside the building since Mausers photos. Can the city fine itself for neglect of a building? Just goes to show you that the city is just as bad (if not worse) as the other slum lords. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2875 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 6:22 pm: | |
They probably should, but why would they do that? |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 582 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.54.51
| Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 7:14 pm: | |
Today I saw guys up in the building stripping stuff out. They hauled it out through the wide open front door. The truck they loaded up said "masonry" on the side. While the guys were in the building, they were talking to the guy driving the truck, yelling out the 10th floor gaping window down to ground level. This was at about 1:30 pm in broad daylight. Im thinking you could haul away every scrap of that place and nobody would give a hoot. I agree with the sentiment that the residents of that hood have other problems occupying their minds aside from saving an abandoned building that doesnt belong to them and whose preservation benefits them not one bit. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 584 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.54.51
| Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 7:24 pm: | |
|
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2884 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:17 pm: | |
Mauser, but that is THEIR neighborhood regardless of how many other problems they have. Should we expect the thing to be literally stripped to it's skeleton, and to have people looking to invest in that neighborhood? These residents have to quit complaining about not getting neighborhood investments if they don't even care about their neighborhoods, and I speak that as a fellow low-income person from a low-income family. Why should they expect outside investment if they are completely content with seeing a piece of their neighborhood (abandoned or not) literally stolen right in front of them? It seems as if you could scavenge and ship away near the entire damn city apart from the occupied housing and few would care. Apathy is KILLING neighborhoods, and that attitude HAS to change for anyone to have any hope for the future of the city, residents and potential residents and investors, alike. If the complete stripping of the Lee Plaza isn't symbolic for what is going on in a lot of Detroit, I don't know what is. Ok, say we left the neighborhood residents off the hook. Where in the heck is the outcry from the organized preservation community? Where are the press releases? Where is the action by law enforcement authorities? Where is the outcry from the leaders elected to protect their citizens and their property? Forget crack, apathy is a helluva' drug, ain't it? (Message edited by lmichigan on December 30, 2005) |
Dsmith Member Username: Dsmith
Post Number: 80 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 68.41.202.23
| Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:26 pm: | |
Nice scoop by Mauser, and a solid post by Lmichigan. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 585 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.51.178
| Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:24 pm: | |
Well, I dont disagree at all with Lmichichigan, but perhaps I could have written that more specifically. It would appear to me, an outsider, that those residents probably do not see the preservation of such a building as directly benefitting them. And if they rent, times that by 1000. But I am assuming, and putting words in the mouths of people I dont know here... Just conjecture on my part. But anyway, I did see some of the scrappers. I drove circles around the block taking photos with a telephoto lens while they were there. This did not seem to bother them in the least. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2888 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:28 pm: | |
Well, it is one thing to understand the residents, it's another to try and justify the complete lack of civic pride. Anything can be explained, not everything can be justified, and the apathy is just painful to watch. I grew up very near here in my first 5 years in Detroit, and it really hurts to come back and see the area. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 586 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.93.176
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:06 am: | |
Agreed. I dont try to justify their complacency - Im just remarking on it. Perhaps they complain all the time - its hard to know what exactly is going on. Certainly it looks like nobody cares - but I wasnt about to stop these fellas in their tracks and confront them. So its possible that the people who live right there are complaining to authorities, but not confronting the scrappers directly. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2892 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:06 am: | |
Oh, I was advocating for your or anyone else to directly confront them. That's never a smart idea. The only point I've been trying to get at in this thread is that I know of no other city in this country when you can strip an entire copper roof from a prominent high-rise in the middle of a neighborhood, and it gets minimal press or outcry from either the presevation groups, neighborhood residents, or city government. Kwame should have been on T.V. the next day with a press release about how this is unacceptable, and would not be tolerated. It's the relative silence that disturbs me. I'd rather have fake lip service than to hear almost nothing at all. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2109 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.137
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:44 am: | |
There is plenty of anger to go around as we helplessly watch this spectacular architectural gem get dismantled and crippled before the elements. This is a continuing episode starting with the stolen lions and gargoyles. Actions by some on this forum led to their recovery, but their recovery did not solve the core problem of the Lee Plaza - the lack of a viable plan to save it and creatively and economically retranslate it. So here is a far stretch what if. Imagine if Northwestern High School, across the street in its drab structure, was given the building and grants for a student rehabilitation project where students learned building trades, development skills, and managing techniques. Instead of a dangerous eyesore it could become a neighborhood pillar that the students could point to and say it was theirs. Imagine the pride and glory that would fall on the school that saved and revived a glistening Lee Plaza. While Lee Plaza is in Detroit, it belongs to Michigan too. The State needs to step in and protect this and other architectural assets if nothing more than protecting them from thieves and the elements. Perhaps they can't save them all, but they should save the best and this is one.
|
623kraw
Member Username: 623kraw
Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.224.200
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 7:34 am: | |
Words of wisdom from Lowell... Here's a shot from May 27, 2005. The roof was intact. The stripping was completeted in under 6 months.
|
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 591 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.69.92
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:14 pm: | |
K - heres what happened.. DPD: "we gotta witness it firsthand to take any action" Wayne County Sheriff: "Try the State Police" State Police: "Try the local media - like Scott Lewis or something. Thats your best bet for a non-emergency event like this". Less than satisfying, but its exactly what I expected to hear. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 592 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.69.194
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:47 pm: | |
Heres what is really freaking me out: (aside from the shocking theft of the entire roof). Less conspicous but just as damaging to the desirabilty of the structure to developers - the systematic harvesting of the terracotta details that line many of the windows. Less noticable and less characteristic than the lion heads, but almost as important. These have been vanishing at a steady rate recently. Thats why the "masonry" sign on the white truck first grabbed my attention.
|
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2112 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.137
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:03 pm: | |
BTW, I did contact the Wayne County prosecutor who was successful in recovering the terra cotta lions and gargoyles from Chicago. However I am not too optimistic that he could do anything regarding the copper roof as it would probably be melted down quickly. Such a shame. |
Eap Member Username: Eap
Post Number: 1225 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.227.12.72
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:14 pm: | |
FYI, when you are calling the authorities during an incident like this report it for exactly what it is. In this case it is a breaking and entering in progress. Once the officers arrive they will investigate accordingly. I have assisted a few times in these situations with arrests resulting. On the lower end of the scale the cops will make brick salvagers unload their loot. In the mean time plates are run, id's are checked and maybe a warrant uncovered for Michigan's most wanted. It is all a worthy exercise for all parties involved. I have personally been very affected by this scrap hustle in the past few years. It is a much deeper problem in need of far reaching and well placed measures in order to approach a real reduction in this crime. A legislative effort for small lot purchases and registered sellers and buyers at the buyer’s level for scrap metal is a far more appropriate initiative than any Capitol Park streetscape ideas. I cannot emphasize enough the deep implications of these crimes. One local development is spending over $3000 per week to secure its site from breaking and enterings for the $20 or so dollars in scrap value held in the copper supply lines. Now of course this project is properly insured but builder's risk insurance isn't designed for these smallish dollar situations. Typical deductible is $1000. Typical repair is $800-1200. If you file too many claims your insurer can drop you. Once other insurers see that drop you will not get another carrier. No insurance equates to no financing. One or two of those situations in a particular corner of the City and the next project in and around that area will not be able to secure coverage. Projects quickly wither or become cumbersome due to huge premiums making the burden of carrying costs insurmountable. |
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 90 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 24.231.201.120
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:40 pm: | |
Great advice Eap for what to do when this situation arrises again. I really hope anything that is taken from this site can be recovered. One can only imagine how much it will cost to replace the lost details. |
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.60.133.115
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:23 pm: | |
What a beautiful building..... so sad what this city has to go through. SOMEDAY..... |
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64
Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.65.11.254
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 6:57 pm: | |
They should knock that thing down just so no more materials can be stripped out. I don't usually like to see buildings coming down, but this one should. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 593 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.24.147
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 7:05 pm: | |
Well, I told the Detroit authorities what was happening and descibed it accurately. No response nonetheless. The current condition of the police force is enough explaination for that. Its good that other people have had more luck stopping such events, at least its not always a futile effort. Why wont the city at least lock the damn front door ? Does that cost too much money ? Currently the front steel door is flapping open in the wind. |
Eap Member Username: Eap
Post Number: 1226 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.37.45
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:03 pm: | |
It certainly is a frustrating situation. Sometimes a little exageration helps get the point through the 911 dispatchers. In the past I have put locks on structures, removed overgrowth for visibility and replaced boards to help curb this type of stuff. Compared to those cases this building is a sitting duck. I don't think any measures short of a sting operation is going to help the Lee. In fact your comment about the steel door has me wondering how long it will last before it heads to the scrap yard. Probably about 30 seconds after the copper and aluminum are gone. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 9666 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:20 pm: | |
So how about it Eap, wanna do a sting operation and bust some caps? |
Dougw Member Username: Dougw
Post Number: 931 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.214.190.39
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:06 pm: | |
Mauser, any license plates with those pics you took? True 'nuf Eap. This building is more of a sitting duck than the ones in the CBD due to its relative isolation. This pic from a few weeks ago shows the area immediately around Lee Plaza: This closeup shows the partially-removed status of the roof at that time: Somehow I'm less upset about this than with the shenanigans surrounding the demolition of the Madison-Lenox. Renovation of Lee Plaza seems like a hopeless cause, whereas the M-L was at least within an urban area of other tall buildings, some undergoing rehab. (Even though Lee Plaza is a nicer building.) |
Psip
Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 734 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131
| Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:53 pm: | |
There was a LOT of money sitting on the roof of the LP. I can not begin to guess how many sq ft of roof that building has, but it has to be over 5000. If the copper was 20 gage, it weighs 1.5 lbs per sq ft. Thats $2.25 a foot! So, at least $11,000.00 According to an article: The group will also coordinate with the recyclers who are buying copper at all-time-high rates upward of $1.50 a pound. Copper prices have risen 42 percent in the past year, mainly because of increased demand from China and India, according to statistics from Bloomberg News. China's economy has been growing at an average 9 percent a year since the late 1970s, a rate of sustained growth never before seen in a major world economy. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld /mercurynews/13492531.htm This might be a mob job. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2113 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.137
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 4:12 am: | |
The sad part is that the cost of re-doing the roof with copper would so dwarf the $11K scrap value. What is so special about Lee Plaza is how well it illuminates in the sun. An artzy sub point pehaps, but when the sun hits it, no matter the state of its damage, it's wow!! ... it looks magnificent even in age and decay, a sign of greatness. The green oxidized copper roof was such a part of that look, the accent that set off the brilliant orange-yellow brick which is faced on all sides. What a beauty. What a tragedy.
|
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 9668 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:08 am: | |
quote:True 'nuf Eap. This building is more of a sitting duck than the ones in the CBD due to its relative isolation.
Are you kidding me? Have you seen the "urban explorers" and their pictures? If they can get in, so can the scrappers. Seriously, you have to get beyond worrying about saving shit in this city, because shit don't get saved, simple as that. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2913 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:10 am: | |
If Lee Plaza is renovated the roof will almost definitely be aluminium reclad painted green (i.e. Metropolitan Square, St. Louis' tallest). |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 9669 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:29 am: | |
Keep dreamin'. That schitt is getting torn down. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 595 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.54.2
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
When I checked the front door, I could not see a way of securing it. It used to be brazed shut, but was cracked open at some point to show a perspective buyer around. Short of brazing I cant see how to keep it shut. It could propbably be blocked from the interior, but thats not the same as physically securing the door itself. (If somebody knows how to secure the damn door, go DO it !) I disagree with the idea that the building is impossible to protect, at least as far as stopping items or materials from being removed. If the giant hole in the west wall stays boarded up (should be rebricked) and the front door is rebrazed, nobody is dragging anything out of that place. Sport, the majority of explorers went in the giant open window hole in the west wall. Yes, there are other ways in that I wont discuss here, but they are not ways that scrappers are going to utilize. Lee Plaza seems to be like trying to protect your neighbors car that keeps getting robbed, but your neighbor doesnt care enough to lock the doors or roll up the windows. You cant force your "neighbor" to protect his car. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2114 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.137
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 12:23 pm: | |
The problem with Lee Plaza is that there are hardly any residential properties looking at it on three sides. Sure there is lots of traffic passing by but, other than the apartment to the east, it stands alone. It would need a surveillance camera system to effectively protect it. The will is just not there and it seems there is little to be done other than chronicle its decline. It's a cryin' shame. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 6325 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.165
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
quote:Well, I told the Detroit authorities what was happening and descibed it accurately. No response nonetheless.
Mauser, my apologies for my incorrect assumptions. |
Psip
Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 737 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 2:17 pm: | |
I took a close look at the photos after the removal. It seems the thieves busted out the concrete on the lower portion of the roof. They did the removal from inside the attic. That must have been a lot of work busting thru the concrete, 4 to 6 inches thick. But, it was a safe way to pull the copper without hanging on the exposed roof. There must be a lot of rubble in the attic now. Since the upper sections of concrete do not have support at the bottom, look for them to begin shifting. Possibly coming down. That roof is very unstable now. Snow and ice will loosen the attachments points leading to catastrophic failure. Where is the Building and Safety department now??? |
Dougw Member Username: Dougw
Post Number: 932 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.214.190.39
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 2:29 pm: | |
quote:Are you kidding me? Have you seen the "urban explorers" and their pictures? If they can get in, so can the scrappers.
Yeah, but scrapping draws more attention than just exploring... hauling pipes or sheets of copper out of a building is pretty noticeable. There are more people around the CBD who would see somthing like that. Also, I'm less likely to do anything if I happen to witness some kid crawl into a building to do some exploring, than if I see a guy hauling pipes out to a truck.
quote:Seriously, you have to get beyond worrying about saving shit in this city, because shit don't get saved, simple as that.
Ok Andy, er, Supersport. Some shit gets saved, some doesn't. I am beyond worrying about Lee Plaza, though... it is probably coming down. |
Psip
Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 738 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:01 pm: | |
I became curious about how much money that copper might be worth. I took a google map image and used a car as a reference to determine the total sq. footage. Figuring the length of the car at 15 ft, the building is about 135ft by 60ft. Also the roof appears to be about 15 ft tall. Without getting nuts about it, there appears to be about 7,050 sq ft on the exterior surfaces and about 3,500 on the interior (mechanical court) surface. That makes a total of 10,550. sq. feet. Based on the assumption of $2.50 scrap value per sq. ft. that’s $26,375 ! Not a bad haul for a few months work. Maybe someone who has been up there would have a better estimate of the sizes. Let me know.
|
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2915 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 9:10 pm: | |
Supersport, maybe I should have capitalized all of "if." I seriously don't believe that it will be saved, or if it's even deserving of renovation. About all any potential developer could do with this property is strip it all the way down and totally reconstruct it. There isn't much left to "restore." |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 9:37 pm: | |
Besides being damaged beyond hope, there's the question of its overall design. Little was done for energy conservation during the fuel-cheap 1920s. I worked as an EE (in energy conservation) during the 1970s in Madison, WI in the Safety and Buildings division of the state agency that oversaw building codes. The costs to properly rehab this structure to current codes and for economical energy consumption would be astronomical. Any developer knows this. That's why there are no buyers, nor will there ever be. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 2919 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 1:54 am: | |
But, it's not different than any other historical buildings currently being restored in the city center. Developers are most certainly aware of the cost of rehabs, in general. This structure is no different. What makes this project so much less hopeful is it's location. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 2:25 am: | |
Common sense! If it were such a hot commodity, buyers would be outbidding other buyers (essentially, an auction) until the fair-market price is achieved. OTOH, if the costs are prohibitive so as to preclude any profits, then it's worthless. The city would literally have to pay some "buyer" (an appreciable subsidy?) to take it. The city cannot even pay its own current expenses without incurring extra bonding debt as it is. Therefore, the Lee Plaza will have to wait until market forces make it attractive. But, it'll decay before that happens. It's hopeless. |
Psip
Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 739 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131
| Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 2:34 am: | |
I fear the only ones bidding on the PL will be the Loizeaux family. http://www.controlled-demoliti on.com/default.asp? |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 653 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.27.96
| Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 9:52 pm: | |
Heres a Lee Plaza scrapper update: The guys I witnessed and attepted to report are there almost every day. Nine to five, working away. No mystery involved, anybody who is serious about catching the looters can go there tomorrow during daylight hours, wait around behind the building for a few minutes - and you are bound to hear them up there whacking away. They are taking pipes, sinks, anything. Hang out for a while longer, and they'll stick their heads out. Today I saw one guy up, one guy down in the van, and two guys come out the front. Every time I have gone by and took a minute to listen, I could hear, and eventually see them. I advise caution, but encourage any of the people on this forum that are constantly calling for these peoples heads to go by and catch them red handed. If you want to play it safe, just sit in the dirt lot behind the building in your car with a cell phone. Just keep in mind that one guy is usually parked in the alley between LP and the apartments. I usually see them about 7 or 8 floors up - in the back, or on the east side of the building. I had a friend with me the other day, we both saw two of them looking out the window at us. Maybe somebody who has had luck in the past summoning police can get them to go up there. |
Eap Member Username: Eap
Post Number: 1231 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.148.229.45
| Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:03 pm: | |
I'll take the bait and do you one better. I am going to post maps for my local nuisance makers and divert their attention from my projects up to Lee Plaza. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 654 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.27.96
| Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:30 pm: | |
Eap - no bait, no bullshit. That post is straight, and Im not at all meaning to be antagonistic. That is, if thats what you were thinking. I dont understand exactly, "nuisance makers"..?. But if you have a method of getting the proper authorities attention do it. If thats a jab at me and Im not getting it, uh..I dunno. |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 2296 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105
| Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:56 pm: | |
I realize that this is a low priority for the police and the fine is a slap on the wrist, but can you get their plate number, and can you show up around closing time and follow them to whichever scrap yard they do business with? |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 655 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.114.218
| Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 11:09 pm: | |
Uh, yeah....if you want to come WITH me. |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 2297 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105
| Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 11:11 pm: | |
Uh, on second thought, take SuperSport since he's packing. |
Eap Member Username: Eap
Post Number: 1232 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.236.164.174
| Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 11:25 pm: | |
Yes please take Supersport. It's my realistic and selfish feeling at this point that the LP is done for and if I can divert the similar activity I am seeing in my area to that carcass then so be it. I am not proud of that feeling but it is rooted in some deep frustration on this very subject. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 6428 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.7
| Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:25 am: | |
Mauser - Are they there 9-5 M-F or is there any weekend work. I will try to get over tomorrow if I can to at a minimum get some pictures and license plates. If not I will check it out on the weekend. Working 30 miles into the burbs makes it a bitch to get back by 5 but I know I could be around on the weekends and at least 1-2 days next week. |
Dougw Member Username: Dougw
Post Number: 941 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.58.168
| Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:01 am: | |
Eap -- granted, Lee Plaza is pretty much a goner but it'd still be nice to catch these SOB's in the act and make some trouble for them. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 656 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.69.27
| Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 9:20 am: | |
SS - perhaps at an earlier time I miscommunicated something, but I do not now, nor have I ever carried or owned handguns. I go everywhere I go with just me and my camera equipment. Just call me dumbass. I dont know if its odds or a testament to the city not being as dangerous as people think, but I go absolutely anywhere I want at anytime. And obviously Ive never been afraid to walk straight into any abandoned building on my own either. So yeah, I looked these looters in the face and took their photographs. While I was not packing, I assume they were. I work in the evenings, so I dont know how long the folks are in LP. I assume during most daylight hours.
quote:I'm too busy watching our for my own and Eap's stuff.
As well you should be. I understand your position, and eaps frustration. |
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64
Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.77
| Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:11 am: | |
Wouldn't the local media eat this kind of thing up? Steve Wilson, Fox2 or anyone else should be covering this story. Has anyone e-mailed them about this? |
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 757 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18
| Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:42 am: | |
commodore, if you read all the postings in this thread you will find that I posted about there being a story on FOX 2 several weeks ago regarding the roof |
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64
Post Number: 184 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.77
| Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:56 pm: | |
I seen that, but there hasn't been a story about this since.. |
Psip
Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 863 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131
| Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:46 pm: | |
In a happier day. Notice the sign on top looking East from W.Grand Blvd and Dexter WSU |