  Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.60.133.115 |
Why is it taking Detroit so long to even consider capping the freeways. If I375, the Lodge, and I75 around the CBD were capped, Midtown and Downtown could be connected with a park. Downtown could extend farther east and west. What are your opinions on this issue? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 9640 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236 |
There is enough capping going on it this city, stop the violence already! What did the freeways ever do to you anyways?  Supersport...saying NO to bustin' caps in the freeways. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.236.187.222 |
i've always loved that idea and hope it will happen (much like the big dig in boston). however, it is such a huge cost, we would need some huge incentive (lack of space for development, a company willing to build above the x-way, etc.) or vision by the government (i don't really need to say much about that, do i?). so, i don't think we'll see it happen anytime soon. look at all the problems mexicantown had trying to build across the expressway with their welcome center (it's now just on one side). | ||
Dpd_blue Member Username: Dpd_blue Post Number: 135 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 68.252.71.233 |
It would probably be cheaper for all of us to move to the moon, then to cap the freeways with parks. The city can't even cut the parks they have. It would be a massive campground for the homeless. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1159 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
The government spotted Boston, they are not going to do it again. | ||
Quickdrawmcgraw Member Username: Quickdrawmcgraw Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.77.247.130 |
It ain't gonna happen. | ||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3323 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.88.51 |
My thought has always been that instead of capping the freeways, which would require pretty significant and expensive enginnering ......(i.e. lowering the freeways to get enough clearance in many spots, exhaust venting, fire suppression and fire escapes).....create a series of wide bridges / parks of high end design and detailed quality all done by different architects. Imagine Detroit revisiting its glory as an architectural design hotbed by having 6 or 7 of todays best and brightest creating lasing monuments that frame the skyline of downotwn detroit. People would come from around the owrld to see and would provide interesting pedestrian connections between the neighborhoods like Brush Park, Lower Cass, Lafayette Park, Corktown..... This plan accomplishes the goals of neighborhood connectivity at a fraction of the cost of burying all the Freeways while creting a unique destination point for outsiders..... | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2591 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.129.63.113 |
I like the idea of filling in 375 after the Madison exit and bringing it back up to grade. Skulker's idea is cool, too. I think the best stretch to start with is the Fisher right around Woodward. | ||
Arab_guyumich Member Username: Arab_guyumich Post Number: 706 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.192.47.93 |
LOL @ Sport. Keepin it real. | ||
Clark1mt Member Username: Clark1mt Post Number: 31 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.61.191.145 |
Michigan has enough trouble maintaining it's freeway bridges. Why add more just to let them fall into disrepair, and then just fall? I'd rather our tax dollars go to fixing and maintaining the infrastructure we have. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1667 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.157 |
The state can't even properly maintain the 3 enormous overpasses over I-696 built so the Orthodox Jewish community in Oak Park and Southfield could easily walk to their Synagogues on the Sabbath. That was such an expensive undertaking, and yet there are always dangerous icicles hanging down onto the freeway underneath because of leaking water problems.... although I haven't seen them lately. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 600 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.41 |
Gistok, I attribute that problem to drainage, obviously the cause is that they landscaped it for parks, if they had covered it with gravel... Damn, there's the solution; more parking lots! | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 380 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 67.149.110.53 |
It will never happen, alot of hazardous cargo is shipped on those freeways. Business and Industry would be up in arms big time.. BTW did those injection wells ever get built down river? Can't remember the slum lords name would wanted to do it... I believe he owned Detroit Coke? Not the drink or the drug... | ||
Mbr Member Username: Mbr Post Number: 14 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.209.141.2 |
The idea of creating a small retail corridor bridge connecting the major roads over 75, 375, and the lodge is most feasible. Columbus has done one with the help of a creative developer. Initially they had tremendous problems assembling the deeds to the land under the highway. http://columbusoh.about.com/li brary/blpic011.htm | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 385 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 67.149.110.53 |
I know on 696 they can't haul hazardous cargo west of I-75.. Depending on the size of the bridges that maybe the case as well.. That may force the cargo onto local roads.. Does Ohio have the same restrictions? Though let me correct myself on the restrictions on I-696.. I think it's not only the tunnel but also the flat wall construction that no one can run any from a potential hazard and get trapped.. Can some forumers please educated me? | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.212.46.167 |
I wrote a paper on this while an undergrad. it was sloppy and rather ingenuous but is applicable to the subject at hand. The issue at hand is the planned expansion of Wayne State University in the Matthaei Center area, which will be centered on athletic events, and in the Techtown area, which will become a research and technology village. Both of these areas are located apart from the main campus and are separated from it by limited access highways. The two highways in mention, the M-10 (Lodge) and I-94 (Edsel Ford) are both sunken down below street grade and act as dividers between the areas mentioned above and the main campus. It is the presence of these sunken expressways that creates a condition of social isolation that will serve to hamper any expansion in the proposed areas.  For the purpose of this paper, the term social isolation will be used in accordance with the given definition agreed upon by most in academia. “With few exceptions, urban sociologists and poverty scholars who use the term social isolation do not mean to say that the people or communities they are describing lack social contacts in general, but that they have limited contacts with certain people, groups, or institutions.” It is the limited contact that exists between the main campus and the two previously mentioned areas that would create the issue of having a divided campus. Since one of the goals of Wayne State University is to increase student residency, this social isolation must be alleviated to allow an opportunity for the campus to expand as a whole. Past assumptions were that the expressways were beneficial since they allowed for the rapid commutes which facilitated the growth of WSU’s student population. The university could not look to the surrounding environment to support a large student population because of its decayed status. Now though, with Detroit in the beginning of a long upward trend, more students are choosing to live on campus. This is evident by the popularity of the two new residence halls built on campus and the need for construction of a third that is planned to occupy the area where Helen Newberry Joy is currently located. With an apparent shift in opinions about Detroit as being a viable, safe, and realistic option of residence, WSU is looking to capitalize upon this by emphasizing its athletic and hi-tech programs. By building an updated athletics complex and a technological village, WSU is attempting to expand the campus in hopes of gaining from Detroit’s resurgence and establish itself as a major four year university with a large residing student body. In order for these expansions to reach their full potential, the campus must be developed in a manner that allows for the social isolation imposed by the Lodge and Edsel Ford freeways to be overcome. The matter of goals is a complex one. In this situation we see overlapping goals from other parties affecting the overall plan of WSU, which serve to corrupt and weaken the plans potential. WSU has at its goal the expansion of the campus. Other involved parties with interests that conflict against WSU’s boundaries, such as MDOT and the City of Detroit, have the ability to interrupt with the master plan of WSU that could possibly limit its probable outcome. All of these goals conflict in numerous ways. For WSU to overcome the social isolation imposed by the expressways MDOT must be consulted. MDOT, while trying to maintain its goal of efficiency, would not be supportive of any project that hurt its operations, thought it would indirectly gain from the proposed WSU expansions as a result of less student commuters and more research into technologies that might help create better transportation methods. Discussing the many possibilities of what can happen is endless and can be interpreted in many ways. Since the amount of goals involved are so large and can be broken down so minutely, the debate over the goals could go on forever. In order for the plan of campus expansion to work the local parties involved, as a result of the democratic process, must all be satisfied. Various meetings among WSU, the City of Detroit, MDOT, and a range of other groups such as local business owners would be involved in countless discussions in order to gain a consensus as to what is desired by all. A specific part of the process, collecting data, gave me my revelation. As I was sitting on the bridges counting people I thought more and more about the reference made in class regarding the destruction of the central freeway in San Francisco. Data about how many people use the bridges, the freeways or live in the surrounding area of WSU may help to determine how many people currently use the system. Though, as to what happens to them afterwards cannot be predicted and should not be a factor. For a better glimpse of this area I will provide some general statistics. - Four vehicular bridges cross the expressways channels. - The grade of both trenches rise up to where the two intersect. - Surrounding the trenches are numerous university and private buildings. - A pedestrian bridge currently spans the Lodge and presents a safety hazard since it is enclosed and provides no escape for pedestrians encountering danger. - Currently there are no WSU parking structures located in these areas. Upon further analysis of the given data, WSU should look in to the feasibility of creating resident areas where currently student use is limited. By determining that these areas currently have a low capacity to accommodate a fluid interaction with the main campus, methods should be sought out that will address these problems. A method that has been used before with great success in similar situations is the construction of concrete decks over the depressed areas of highway. This approach has been implemented in Oak Park, MI over I-696 with a very successful result for the affected community. “As of 1996, community leaders indicated their neighborhood was stronger than it had ever been, and the historic center of the Jewish community remains strong and vital.” The two decks built in this instance enabled fluid pedestrian movement across the freeway to shopping areas, schools and other areas of importance among the Jewish community. The impact that a project like this could have for WSU would allow for the master plan to reach its goal of a vital urban community. This possibility of concrete decks over expressways is currently being studied by the City of Sacramento CA in an effort to restore the connection between its downtown and riverfront. “Construction of the highway in the 60’s spared Old Sacramento, but effectively cut off downtown Sacramento from the river. Plans are afoot to allow more pedestrian and vehicle traffic into the area along the river” The study that is being conducted is costly but the city council sees the possible effects of the decks being created as too great a benefit to ignore. Implementation of such a plan would therefore require large amounts of capital to be invested in order to first study the area in question, determine construction methods, and finally commence with actual construction. After the project was completed the area would fall under the operating budget of WSU since they would be utilizing the air rights over the freeway. This photo showing the Alexander Hamilton interchange and the approach to the George Washington Bridge, demonstrates how just such a utilization of air rights can result in the elimination of social isolation. The apartments constructed over the freeway are a perfect example of how such a plan can be implemented while not disrupting the current structures. The likelihood of WSU being able to effectively lobby for and construct these freeway decks is not good at best, though the construction would coincide well with the master plan of the university. Due to the extreme cost of these decks they would be passed on for another alternative such as a student shuttle service. The real issue with the presence of social isolation might not even be readily apparent to the planning officials at WSU since they may not be trained to examine their plans from a sociologist’s perspective. Campus expansions will be a large enough investment alone without having to construct massive concrete decks. By examining the Oak Park and Sacramento examples, the most recent ones, WSU could obtain information from the leading project figures on raising necessary funds, contacting the correct federal office and partaking in the necessary feasibility studies. For this plan of concrete decks to work many factors would have to come in to being. The City of Detroit would have to agree to this along with the State of Michigan, MDOT, the residents and property owners in the selected areas, and the possibility of this happening in a rational manner creates irrationality in itself. To fully explain and understand how this process could work for WSU a thorough and in depth investigation would have to be conducted. Since the study in Sacramento will cost $4 million and will take three to four years, any chance of this plan being fully covered by this paper is impossible and any study by WSU is highly unlikely. Asking the public: The second phase of the study would include community meetings to discuss design features and concerns, and come up with two or three proposals to span I-5 where it dips below grade just south of Capitol Mall and Old Sacramento. Other tasks include assessing the environmental impacts of decks or bridges, updating cost and construction-time estimates, performing preliminary engineering and design work, and estimating how work would affect traffic on the freeway. Federal standards for environmental review are demanding, said Michelle Nelson of the city’s Economic Development Department; that’s part of why the study will take three to four years. Again I am reminded in these examples of how planning and democracy are shown here to be causing each other harm. Due to previous planning attempts that were not given full motivation and determination, new planning methods must be created that work to correct the ‘mistakes’ of the past. Only time will tell when the decks in Oak Park cause problems for future planning concerns and then all of the planning and money spent researching the idea in Sacramento will be considered wasted and lost. This is the irrationality of planning. Every generation new ideas are formulated and new technologies are created that press planners to develop new strategies in their respective fields. So in a sense it is the progression of planning that leads to the lost of respect for previous planning methods. In a constantly changing environment how can any plan be expected to be master in its scope and comprehensive in its implication? These elements of planning in a democratic society are reasons why I have become so disturbed and feel that only in a utopian world could planning truly overcome the pressures of the free market economy, advancing technologies, demographic changes, and individual political concerns. Instead of being connected to the political process and working through bureaucracies, planning should be the political process and be allowed to create and implement plans as it feels necessary. As a necessary creation of the modern nation state planning bodies should be given full autonomy since the implications of their decisions have deep repercussions. The depth of these repercussions can have the power to influence the economy in such drastic ways that their ability to plan should only be given to the most highly educated and experienced people available. An example of the influential power of planning can be observed upon driving through the City of Detroit and witnessing the vast amount of vacant land. If better controls were placed on the growth of new suburbs and subdivisions then maybe the land inside the City of Detroit would be better utilized and would not be left to waste. These decisions may not seem all that important now, but in the years to come our economy will have to feel the effects of our current planning decisions, whatever they may turn out to be. Community Impact Assessment In Transportation Home Page. Retrieved December 1st, 2003 from the World Wide Web: http://www.ciatrans.net Halprin, L. (1966) Freeways. New York: Reinhold Publishing Corporation. Klinenberg, E. (2000). “Alone in the City? An Intellectual History of Social Isolation”. Northwestern University Institute for Policy Research. Larson, M. City likely to OK $4M study of Interstate 5 deck. (2003, July 14th). Sacramento Business Journal. [online edition] http://sacramento.bizjournals. com/sacramento/stories/2003/07 /14/story6.html?t=printable Wayne State University Campus Master Plan. Retrieved on November 14th, 2003 from the World Wide Web: http://www.facilities.wayne.ed u/mp/006-015%20sect1%20-%20Int roduction%20and%20Overview.pdf Wood, M. Rooms for Rent in Residential Halls. (October 27th, 2003). The South End. [online edition] http://www.southend.wayne.edu/ days/2003/October/10272003/new s/rent/rent.html | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 391 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 67.149.110.53 |
So was this undergrad paper ever presented to the Campus leadership? You have done your homework on this and it was a really good post! Good job.. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.212.46.167 |
thanks i had some photos that were too large. Sorry they werent included but im not that hip with photoshop. | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 396 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 67.149.110.53 |
I hear ya.. You need a degree on that program to do something great.. Just like Adobe Premier.. | ||
Rust Member Username: Rust Post Number: 63 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.43.180.171 |
Skulker, I like your Idea and from an Engineering point should be quite feasible. I think the solution Mbr showed us in Columbus would be a perfect model for the Woodward I-75 crossing. The added connectivity this would add to burgeoning Brush Park Midtown scene would have to add the overall viability/walkability of downtown. Those who live in Brush Park (Detroitduo), how does having to walk accross I-75 as it today affect you? Your property values? Would an enhanced connection increase the odds that you would opt to walk downtown versus hop in the car to drive to some suburban/other locale? Can any of the beancounters out there do a quick study on what an enhancement like this could do in generating tax dollars? Will property go up in value do to it? Will retail activity go up downtown if it is more accesible to pedestrians coming down Woodward? |
