  Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3586 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
And this is why: On Tuesday November 8 2005, the citizens of Livonia approved a measure that will lead ro the City of Livonia " opting out " of the SMART system. The vote by the citizens of the City of Livonia will mean that all Smart service will eventually be pulled from that city. The timefame for this change will not be until next August/September, 2006. Until that time, SMART services will continue to be operated in Livonia. In the meantime, our Planning and Scheduling department will be reviewing alternative operating scenarios. Dicussions with neighboring communities and passengers meetings will be held to help finalize changes. Due to the loss of Livonia tax dollars, the required cuts will be significant. However, any reports of scecific sevices that will remain or will be cut outside of Livonia did not come from SMART. No decisions one way or other are likely to be made June 2006. The Farmington Hills City Council is considering opting out of the SMART bus system. To add business community's input to the decision making process the Farmington/Farmington Hills Chamber of Commerce is conduction an online survey. The survey asks that following two questions: 1. Do you or your employees currently rely on SMART ( Sububan Mobility Authority for Regional Transpotation ) to get to work most of all work days? a) If you answered yes, how many employees ride the bus? b) If not, why don't you utilized these services? 1. Have you or any of your employess ever used SMART? To add your business' input to the dialog on whether or not Farmington/Farmington Hills should remain part of SMART bus system sign on to the Chamber's website at www.ffhchamber,com/Round. You do not need to be a Chamber member to provide your comments. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 915 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
... wtf... what about people that visit people and shop in the area... Im sorry but this is a good way to keep the people in Detroit from creeping up into their neighborhoods... People are freaking out about macomb mall in roseville being a haven for Detroiters... so they are going to opt out of the bus system that feeds this. Im sorry.. but wtf is wrong with attracting shoppers... from WHATEVER area... We need transit NOW! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2778 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I hope the sprawlburbs of Oakland and Western Wayne County do pull out of SMART crippling the system until it functions even worse than it already does forcing some new authority to come in to feel the void that will most certainly be created, with a regional plan. This is all wishful thinking, and in the end, this is going to hurt and squeeze quite a few people, and I'm sure some will be robbed of their livelyhood not being able to get to their jobs and all. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 763 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.201 |
if it's all about Detroit shoppers then with any luck those shoppers will spur more business closer to home and the demand for retail in the city will rise | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.206.90 |
this entire movement is beyond reason in modern society. only in this metro area do i hear of this kind of issue. that is the problem in a nutshell. the detroit area needs ONE metro system that provides service to the entire area. this type of news is laughable in other cities---hence-the reputation that the detroit area has. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2245 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.212.215.124 |
Well, there is nothing wrong with separate bus systems that divides the city and the suburbs. However, there must be a REGIONAL AUTHORITY that will take care of the transportation system. We are practially the only major metropolitan area without a regional authority on such important issues. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2784 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
There is nothing wrong with separate bus systems IF they have adequate connections/transfer points. (Message edited by lmichigan on December 18, 2005) | ||
Paulj Member Username: Paulj Post Number: 319 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.79.101.116 |
no, wait. there is something wrong with seperate bus systems... unneccesary redundancy. now you need 2 Directors and 2 maintenance infrastructures and 2 sets of payrolls. you need to coordinate system 1 with system 2 ( which obviously doesnt work very well around here). There's a certain built-in discount to having just one system instead of two, and you lose alot of the awkwardness & clumsiness as well. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2788 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
But, if there must be separate bus systems to begin with, as long as they are adequately connected that should be fine until a regional agreement can be worked out. It would be even better, though, if the region could bypass that step altogether considering seeing as how separate bus systems have not worked in this region before. All I'm saying is that if you have to work with what you have, it can be done. It's preferable by no means, but it's a good back-up plan in case a future regional authority falls apart. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3588 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 207.74.110.60 |
HAH Lmichigan, (Hitlerland) Livonia and (Fascistown) Farmington Hills and Farmington will not have a its own transit system. Those 2 segregated cities have made a terrible decision and behold those folks will see that their commerce dissapear right before their eyes . They have created their own little Detroit. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 1960 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Gee, I wonder why everyone is so afraid that their much ballyhooed mass transit system cannot stand on its own merits? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
According to Channel 7, only 1% of Livonia's residents use the damn bus: "According to reports, only 1% of Livonia residents use the Smart Bus System. But people who live elsewhere and work in Livonia may rely on it for transportation to their jobs." Let's rephrase the argument, what has Detroit done for Livonia lately to entice Livonia's residents to support something they just do not use or need? They are just using their legal voting rights and opting out of a lousy deal. | ||
Brian Member Username: Brian Post Number: 3248 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.37.83.224 |
If one system is preferred and is supposed to be better, why then is it not being done through MDOT with a takeover of all local transist systems? Would a state transit system save more money than all the local systems in place? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2791 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Livernoisyard, you missed the most key senstence of your post: "But people who live elsewhere and work in Livonia may rely on it for transportation to their jobs." Detroit (and even many other neighboring suburbs) has supplied workers for Livonia for years, that's what they have done for Livonia in the past, the present, and the future, though that is beginning to look more unclear after every single thing Livonia has recently done to further isolate it's shrinking self. I think you show perfectly what is wrong with the region: every little municipality and their momma think that they are an island onto themselves MORE than realizing they are part of a greater metropolitan area. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 255 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.136.144.196 |
This is exactly why our region is a joke. Everywhere else people are exapanding transit here we're cutting it making it less useful so even fewer people use and giving every anti-transit jackass another excuse to cut services. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3135 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.233.5.115 |
"every little municipality and their momma think that they are an island onto themselves MORE than realizing they are part of a greater metropolitan area" Yeah, including the City of Detroit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2794 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
But, the city of Detroit still is, in many regards, the center of the region. And, if it's not it is the only city that was built and can once again become the center of the region. The other municipalities, barring a very few, exist because of Detroit, not the other way around. Until they realize this there is going to be much more trauma to follow. No other city but Detroit has the infastructure, the history, and everything else included with being a big city (still) to become the center of the region. The rest can try like hell to continue power grabs, it will never change the fact that barring wipping Detroit from the face of the earth it will always be the only place that can ever act as a center of the region, again. (Message edited by lmichigan on December 18, 2005) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1444 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.88 |
Not economically Lmich......Detroit is not the center economically...... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2801 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
No place in the metro is. It's so decentralized now it's not even funny. The ONLY city that has any chance, once again, of becoming the center of it all is Detroit. That's what it was built for regardless of what it has become. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1445 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.88 |
Good luck!!! If no place is the center then perhaps each place is it's own center.Of course that does not address the issue of public transit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 2802 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Nor does bode well for the future of the greater metropolitan area if that is true. Resources can only be scattered so far before a metropolitan area collapses. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
LMich: Maybe you don't get it! Why should Livonians be concerned in the least with those in Detroit not getting to work or wherever? Besides, the real unemployment in Metro Detroit is pushing 400,000 when the discouraged "no-longer-looking-for work" are considered. If a help-wanted sign ever goes up for unskilled labor (that's what Detroiters generally are), any new-hiring is near instantaneously filled with more than enough job seekers. Getting a job is harder than keeping one. If an employers asks if you have a car, only a stupido should say no. He'll not be hired, for sure. Get the job first, then quickly look around for transportation, by any means possible, even if it involves walking or riding a bike. I do both skilled and unskilled labor. I'm lucky in that I work generally at home, but do unskilled labor in the exoburbs from time to time when between contracts. When my car had trouble, I would walk the final 3 miles past Newburgh & Warren to Canton. One worker rode his bike over 25 miles each way from the near west side, 12 months a year to get to work, and rarely came tardy unless he suffered a flat, etc. So for a healthy guy, there's a way. Most jobs are filled by word-of-mouth anyway, so a help-wanted-sign or classified-advertising approach is rarely needed, save for skilled workers. In addition, the cost of car ownership is not that costly, considering a record level of used vehicles glutting the market. Not having a car and/or a license tips off many employers that maybe something is wrong with an applicant who doesn't drive or cannot carpool. (Message edited by livernoisyard on December 19, 2005) | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3590 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 207.74.110.60 |
This is not the way to run a village, township city, county, state, and nation by taking away the things we hope and dream for. Causing Hitlerland (Livonia) and Facistown (Farmington) and Famington Hills to Screw SMART is terrible idael. Those folks over there do have the tax money to pay for SMART, but they won't to blow it for somebody else comming into their neighborhoods to work, visit and play. | ||
Gertrude Member Username: Gertrude Post Number: 20 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.33.246.207 |
Danny - The Farmington Hills City Council is only considering whether to phase out of the SMART system. If they do (and they are only considering it, no vote or action has been taken), then they will institute some kind of alternative service. While I am all for some kind of regional mass transit, I also understand that sometimes financial choices have to be made. I suppose I would rather have funding for the youth centers, which benefit many, rather than pay into a system that may benefit relatively few. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2163 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Backwards ass thinking at it's finest... "Welcome to 2005 Detroit....same as 1955 Mississippi..." | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6275 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.23 |
I think you should also petition the State to pull all funding from services for the homeless, poor, mentally ill and handicapped. After all that is a relative few. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2164 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Yeah we have to make sure the happy, content, and priviledged are satisfied don't you know... | ||
Gertrude Member Username: Gertrude Post Number: 21 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.33.246.207 |
Is it possible to have discussion that don't include "the sky is falling!!!!!!" hyberbole? Is it possible to entertain the possibility that different viewpoints can have merit without resorting to name-calling? The numbers of residents affected by mental illness, poverty, and disability are far greater than what can be served by the SMART bus service in one or two communities. Ideally, we should have some kind of regional transit. I've lived in Europe and I hate driving, so I have some perspective on this. That said, budget choices have to be made. Personally, I blame the budget woes Bush and Engler for raiding the treasury to pad their cronies pockets, but that's outside the scope of this discussion. Livonia's decision to pull out from SMART was short-sighted and will prove very foolish to their business owners whose livehoods depend on workers who need access to SMART. Maybe we need to focus on how to improve what we have before we cast stones at municipalities, forced to make cuts somewhere, who would rather fund items of broader concern to their constituents. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6276 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.23 |
You do realize that this affects any routes that went through those communities. It also affects more than just the residents in those cities but that is what they report, not total users but users of the respective cities.
You are interpreting Livonias actions incorrectly. They are essentially shifting the smart dollars to local service. They are using SMART dollars to fund inter-Livonia transportation. There is no saving of community centers, youth programs, etc just a shift in which transportation bucket is supported. | ||
Gertrude Member Username: Gertrude Post Number: 22 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.33.246.207 |
I neither live in Livonia, nor follow their politics, so I can't/won't answer for their actions except to say I think they went about this the wrong way. I do live in FH and I do know that with the decreased revenue sharing from the state, the city has had to get much more creative about funding community interests. Last fall, residents were asked to approve a special millage just to keep the libraries operational. I do know that the F/FH plan was to shift the $ from SMART into an alternative system if and only if the system could meet the current needs at a cost-savings to the taxpayers. It is the end of the line of several SMART routes and a pull-out from SMART should not unduly affect routes. Again, if the needs can be met another way, why should that be a bad thing? What if the smaller pieces of the transit puzzle are fixed so that that the whole has a chance of survival? Thanks for engaging in dialogue, jt1; I enjoy a good discussion. Again, I want mass transit to succeed, but I also believe that this is one of many problems with the region's infrastructure that needs attention - and not necessarily its most pressing. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6281 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.23 |
All cities and the State are suffering but this appears to be a case of claiming financial prudence while hurting those that need the most help. Due to it's proximity to Detroit and other older suburbs I think that Livonia and F/FH are not realizing the ramifications to workers in their community. How many people live in F/FH and work at the minimum wage jobs. In turn, how many of the people that work those have a car? It is shortsighted to ignore that businesses will also be adversely affected by these pull outs. Who will work at the fast food places, who will work at the lower paying jobs. We no longer live in a time when those jobs are dominated by local teens looking for weekend money. Taking away the people that work the lower paying jobs may seem like it is not a big concern but it will have a very noticeable effect. Will it be offset by the few dollars saved. I highly doubt it. We will have to wait and see when Livonia and potentially F/FH cuts themselves off from this service. Have you seen the rough numbers in $$ savings to F/FH yet. What kind of numbers are we talking about. I know every dollar counts in our current economy but the leaders that do this must understand the effects of losing lower paying jobs that may adversely affect business and some carry ove spending. It is not a 1:1 cut, that much is certain. I am also pretty certain that neither Livonia nor F/FH will do the due diligence to determine the true financial impact since they just see it as savings. I can save money by not paying my mortgage. Sounds great right now but there will be ramifications. While that example is a very exagerrated example it is the same line of thinking. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6282 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.23 |
PS - I agree that we need to look at a clear regional plan but an issue that will be faced is that the cities that opt out will not want to sit at the table since it may cost them money and things are 'well enough' without transit. Our leaders are very short sighted and once they have the money in their pocket you will have to kill them to get any portion of it, regardless of how small, back for transit. | ||
Gertrude Member Username: Gertrude Post Number: 23 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.33.246.207 |
Here is the transcript of the FH planning session (warning: it's five pages long). From my reading, I would say that only one member, Councilperson Ellis, really is pushing to withdraw from SMART, and that is only to send a strong message to Lansing that the regional transit system needs to be fixed. The mayor is a very strong supporter of regional mass transit. One thing to remember about FH is that they haven't vetoed a millage request in the eight years I have lived here. The voters here have also supported the regional culture tax both times it was on the ballot, so they do understand that they are part of a larger Detroit region. The Farmington Observer ran a good article but apparently their online archives only go back a week now. There were actual numbers in that article that I haven't found elsewhere yet. I'll keep digging. (And to return to your mortgage metaphor, I see opting out of SMART more like not getting the furnace checked before winter starts because you'd rather spend that money on a plumbing leak. You know it's not a great idea, but the plumbing leak will cause more damage in the short term than a potential furnace problem will.) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1321 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
The thing that the neo-liberal (aka libertarian) point of view (similar to the logic presented here by Livernoisyard, Brian, and Mcp001) doesn't seem to grasp is the concept of an economic externality. Virtually every economic action creates both costs and utilities that actors outside of the decision either enjoy or are hurt by. I believe it is good public policy to attempt as much as possible to roll the externalities into the decision process. Regional government is one of the best ways to do so in a local context. This point of view is often a pure worship of the idea of the free market, and ignores the whole half of economics that deals with what happens when markets are imperfect or fail completely. The result of policies created by the point of view is often a race to the bottom, whether it is concerning transit, wages, environmental protection, or something else completely. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Jmeyers: Spare us all this nonsensical drivel, such as "externalities". Sounds like some "hand-wavings" that a radiclib Poly-Sci prof (who probably never had a real job) would spout. "Good public policy" should consider costs and benefits for the majority of its affected residents, not just giving special emphasis to Detroiters (city of). The city of Detroit will not ever regain its prior economic status it lost after WWII - eons ago. It is not even geographically centered any longer. Just look on any map of Metro Detroit. Detroit (city of) is tucked in the far southeastern corner by Windsor. (Canada to those in Rio Linda, as Rush might say.) Even more so for its "Downtown." The real downtown of Detroit is Big Beaver (16 Mile) in Troy, or certainly, close to it. Surely nothing south of Eight Mile! Even Fort or Dix in downriver Detroit is far more viable than anywhere in Detroit (city of). Detroit (city of) has some sports venues and theaters, government facilities, two low-tiered universities and some lesser-tiered colleges, albeit with an overabundance of vacancies for all of them. That's about it. Lots of vacant skyscrapers "downtown" that are too costly to demolish for anything more than low-demanded parking lots for the few workers there. And lots of "prairie" land, gutted buildings, pheasants, etc., among its remaining viable structures It would make more sense to have more Royal Oak-type transit facilities and fewer hubs in Detroit (city of). That's where over 85% of Detroiters live and that's where the jobs are near. Detroit (city of) is primarily a place to transit through, not a major destination or place of origin. But if the vast majority of Detroiters do not desire mass transit, then the costs for something not in demand should be averted instead of wasted. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6286 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.23 |
A clear example of why our region will never progress. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
One benefit that Detroit has is moderately priced housing, for now. Any real "progress" involving Detroit will only come about via gentrification. Newer expensive construction will drive out the poorer residents over a period of decades. It's already happening in MidTown - Cass, etc., among other areas. Unless you got lots of $, you will have to move, if you're a renter. The classy neighborhoods of DC were all slums like much of Detroit before gentrification... | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1326 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
I'm jsmyers. (Pay attention.) And if you had ever taken a basic economics course (maybe even in high school), you'd be able to follow the discussion. The concept of market failures and externalities are the second layer of economic study (above the foundation of supply and demand). This is true for those with all points of view.
You just proved to me that you have no idea what I was writing about. As for being geographically centered....
The population centroid of the tri county area (Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb) is in the southeastern corner of Southfield. If you include the entire SEMCOG area (adding Washtenaw, Livingston, St Clair, and Monroe counties) the center moves a tiny bit northwest. If you include the Canadian part of our metro area, the center would shift back to the SE, possibly entering Detroit proper.
I can't speak for UDM, but WSU is a Research I institution along with MSU and UofM in Michigan, and is highly regarded for many of its programs.
The city proper has well over 800,000 people (no matter who you ask). This is about 20% of the tricounty area. (Summary File 1, P1, Census 2000) Apparently 85% of people don't live in Royal Oak 21.9% of the households in the city proper do not have a vehicle available. 44.1% have only one vehicle available (even though many of them have 2 or more workers). (Summary File 3, H44, Census 2000) This is where the largest number of people that need transit live. They might not know much about mass transit, but they sure as hell wish they could get to a job. If they don't they will only drag our state down in one way or another. As for being a work destination, it might not be the majority (no place in SE Michigan is), but downtown is one of the major business centers in the area. Tens of thousands of workers commute every day to the offices, businesses and hospitals that are in downtown, new center, and in between. (probably more like 100,000) Livernoisyard, if you want to post about economics or transportion, learn something about them first. Until you do, stick with what you know. | ||
Sarge Member Username: Sarge Post Number: 174 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 204.57.109.226 |
Spare us all this nonsensical drivel, such as "externalities". Sounds like some "hand-wavings" that a radiclib Poly-Sci prof (who probably never had a real job) would spout. Yeah, Jsmeyers......stop all the nonsensical drivel from those radical liberals like Adam Smith, Frederich Von Hayek and Milton Friedman. |
