 
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2060
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:25 pm: |    |
Economic Left/Right: -8.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.28
Oh... and...
|
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2061
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:27 pm: | |
quote:Because in some cases pragmatism trumps ideology
Excellent point, Firstandten. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9122
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 2:20 am: | |
Fun analysis, Oladub, thanks for the efforts...but I'd rather Jams NOT be on top.
He is apparently slightly more Libertarian than me.
How curious that we have almost identical numbers, though. No wonder we rarely argue.
Jeez, East Detroit, I voted STRONGLY AGREE on that one...heh. Negative 8-something on the horizontal, though. Damn, you might be the most radically left so far! |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8752
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 9:05 am: | |
Pragmatism should almost always trump ideology |
Mopardan
Member
Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 277
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 9:25 am: | |
Quote:
Pragmatism should almost always trump ideology
============================== ==================
You would think so. But as you can tell by the "loyal opposition" of this country, they'd rather obstruct on so-called principle rather than contribute constructively. Hate to tell 'em, but the election is over & let's get to work. |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 66
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 9:35 am: | |
quote:Det_ard -
look at the polls. all those SW quadrant issues have upwards of 60% support across the country
I don't think so. The SW quadrant is Kucinich/Nader country. You may think those guys are supported by 60% of the country but it's obvious from last year's election process that they have very low single-digit support. The 60% support you mention goes to mainstream Democratic politicians that are all in the NE quadrant.
This area of the forum reminds me of the clove-cigarette-smoking table at some funky coffee house in Ann Arbor. Earnest, smart people who can't understand why the world doesn't buy into the things they "know" are true. The clustering of people here into the SW quadrant proves it. |
Mopardan
Member
Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 278
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 10:03 am: | |
Quote:
This area of the forum reminds me of the clove-cigarette-smoking table at some funky coffee house in Ann Arbor. Earnest, smart people who can't understand why the world doesn't buy into the things they "know" are true. The clustering of people here into the SW quadrant proves it.
============================== =================
Maybe I should post a picture of me in uniform toting an M-16...that should help shatter the image you described.
I will write what a few others already have: Pragmatism should trump ideology. Just because you have certain beliefs or think something ought to operate a particular way does not mean it is practical for everyone or society at large. That's where pragmatism comes in.
One of my personal beliefs is compulsory military service for everyone, male & female regardless of class stature or student status. Is it practical? Only in certain cases such as all out war. In reality, there are enough bad attitudes in the all-volunteer military; I couldn't imagine what it'd be like with a signficant number of conscripts. Would it make sense to pull a college student out of his last semester for a 4yr hitch? No; although the argument can be made he could complete his degree during his enlistment. But again, you have to be practical. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9124
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 10:29 am: | |
The clustering of folks in any quadrant proves nothing, excepting perhaps that they answered questions which some algorithm calculated their position within it.
If the draft were compulsory, they'd nap the kids between high school and college...nobody would be pulled from their last year before they go into production.
Should I post a picture of my most favorite target from pistol draw practise?! Amazing the conclusions one chooses to fit data into sometimes!
I wouldn't smoke clove... |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 69
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 10:44 am: | |
Who said a bunch of clove-smoking hippies couldn't possess some serious firepower? You two are bringing guns into this as if that somehow proves you're not out in left field politically, compared to the mainstream. Hey, Che has some nice weaponry, didn't he?
Seriously, I'm just observing that there's a big clustering in an area of the graph far away from mainstream politicians, yet Rb336 thinks 60% of America thinks like him. That's wishful thinking. Is this quiz rigged somehow to produce that SW clustering? I dunno. Just pointing out what I see.
Commence firing. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9127
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 11:04 am: | |
Heh.
I say the political process has largely filtered OFF those who realize it is merely a game played upon the populace by the powers-that-is...and that the roughly half-participated experiment we call representative democracy is now a myth or legend from our country's past.
Tying the political reality into this sample may indeed reveal a larger picture, because most of the people I know at least entertain ideals that would put them in the lower left half of this test.
And yes, I'd MUCH rather hang out with a Gandhi or MLK or Dalai Lama than ANY of the power-mongers who infect the upper-right quadrant...so there goes MY experiential experimental bias!
Don't bogart that joint...fire it back up! |
Raptor56
Member
Username: Raptor56
Post Number: 841
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 11:36 am: | |
Speaking of skewing results, it reminds me of the old addage:
"The numbers never lie, but the folks who collect the numbers usually do."
You can skew results however you want. It's all in how you word and value the question. |
Mopardan
Member
Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 279
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 12:00 pm: | |
A.R.D., just trying to help break the stereotypical image. Remember, "liberals" hate guns & the military. Drop flowers not bombs!
If you met me face-to-face, your impression wouldn't match what this graph indicates; you'd conclude I'd be much further to the right. Anyway, I'm not going to digress on that; I don't have the time & I doubt you or anyone else really give a rat's ass.
Everyone has their own idea of how life should be & how society should behave/think. My own personal experience is that most people I've met fall somewhere between left-of-center to right-of-center on many issues. In other words, they're not extremists. Besides, it's all subject to opinion. And if you want to know how I feel about that scroll up a bit.
Quote:
If the draft were compulsory, they'd nab the kids between high school and college...nobody would be pulled from their last year before they go into production.
============================== =================
Gannon, I think you missed my point about practicality where compulsory service is concerned. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1349
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 12:54 pm: | |
quote:Seriously, I'm just observing that there's a big clustering in an area of the graph far away from mainstream politicians, yet Rb336 thinks 60% of America thinks like him. That's wishful thinking. Is this quiz rigged somehow to produce that SW clustering? I dunno. Just pointing out what I see. I'm well aware that my views are pretty far outside the spectrum of mainstream American political discourse. I don't know that equating views like mine with candidates like Kucinich, and then saying that only 6% of the country thinks like me because that's what Kucinich polled, is necessarily a valid argument. That has been explained several times on this thread already. I don't know what percentage of the country thinks like me, but ideology is definitely not the only thing I consider when choosing who to vote for, and I think that's true of most people regardless of their political beliefs. I would be in favor of modifying our political system to align people's voting habits more closely with their ideology, since I think it would make the government more representative of the people, but that is another discussion entirely. |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 4623
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 4:48 pm: | |
weighing in...
E: -6.0
SLA: -4.5
no real surprise...thought I would be closer to my friend cc though... |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 7965
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 4:52 pm: | |
Communist  |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19643
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 4:54 pm: | |
I didn't (think you would be closer to me).
Although that is a good point....how many people are surprised by were they fell? And what is the likely reason for the discrepancy? |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8758
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 4:54 pm: | |
Det_ard, look at the issues that are strongly supported in the SW:
sensible gun regulation
a woman's right to choose
health care
strengthening social security
virtually all have 60% + support |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 4624
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 4:54 pm: | |
dam...better send back my velvet painting of John Wayne |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19644
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 4:58 pm: | |
And surrender your membership card to the Reagan fan club. |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 4625
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 5:04 pm: | |
geesh cc ... does it count that I voted and met Ford once? |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19648
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 5:29 pm: | |
Hmmmm, let me consider that...nope. |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 4628
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 5:36 pm: | |
|
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2063
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 11:54 pm: | |
Gannon, I paused and almost picked Strongly Agree on the land thing... actually I paused for a few and guessed that perhaps I have changed a bit over the years and am wanting a wafer thin amount of security.
Too bad, because I could have ended up perfectly left. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19682
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 12:38 am: | |
Why would you want wafer thin security? Security is closer to a nominal entity...you are either secure, or you are not. Put another way, you can't be a little dead, you get the whole package, courtesy of a wafer thin amount of security. |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2073
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 7:59 pm: | |
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Liberty, the real kind, as in the Bill of Rights. Not the Locke property turned Jefferson pursuit of happiness thing.
So, we fight the good fight against the capitalist pigs and the selfish fucks who would rather wallow in their troughs of materialism than commune with nature and give of themselves for the greater good. But after a while you might want a wafer thin amount of security... such as modest hut that you can call your own, or maybe a corporate job during the day.
Wafer thin vs the idealists who go from 4 year hippie/punk at UM to Greed is Good Wallstreet hoodlum and end up bitter people who clawed their way to the top and don't want anyone else to even think about touching their material goods. The ol' young bright eyed Democrat becomes old bitter Republican thing.
Wafer thin like live in a house that costs one times your household income, not six times... and give extra to charity and enjoy it... but its still a wafer thin amount because you could live in an apartment and give even more to charity.
I guess we can't all be perfect. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5458
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 8:42 pm: | |
another for the SW quadrant here - Mandela zone
E: -7.38
SLA: -3.69 |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19702
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 12:38 am: | |
Define "essential liberty" first. What if it is not a little temporary safety, but preservation of the sovereignty of the nation? |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 7982
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 8:30 am: | |
Does that fit on a bumper sticker? |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9140
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:08 am: | |
Yanno, there is another option to the analysis, too.
There is a great chance MOST Americans haven't bothered to look too deeply at their convictions, usually because they were handed down from their parents and continued by the siblings and peers.
I'd like to believe in the spectrum of mere human traits and tendencies would be most heavily represented in the SW quadrant...or at least the south half. It is most natural to desire to be free, and NOT to pursue direct control over others.
But then again... |
Oladub
Member
Username: Oladub
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 2:12 pm: | |
Gannon, your statement, "It is most natural to desire to be free, and NOT to pursue direct control over others" would best be represented in the extreme SE corner that combines economic and social libertarianism - perhaps at the expense of anarchy. The extreme SW corner combines, instead, social tolerance with economic authoritarianism. The least freedom would be found in the extreme NW corner, a la Mugabe, combining both economic and social authoritarianism. If Hitler could be plotted, I suspect he would also be found there.
Not related, but big money seems to have a soft spot for the clump of Democrats and adjacent Republicans in the SW corner of the NE quadrant. Politicians who stray from that area aren't showered with much corporate money. If everyone on this board voted their conscience, Nader would be President. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 3:18 pm: | |
quote:If everyone on this board voted their conscience, Nader would be President. Huh? There aren't nearly enough people on this board to throw a presidential election. America is kind of a big country. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9143
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 3:46 pm: | |
In one of the diagrams on the site, they placed Hitler in the L/R center, almost as high to the top as he could be placed.
I will have to chew on your analysis...
...and would say an overwhelming conscience vote might've landed us a President Paul this go 'round. |
Vic_doucette
Member
Username: Vic_doucette
Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 5:41 pm: | |
My conscience prevented me from voting for Ron Paul.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI CS/01/10/paul.newsletters/inde x.html |
Oladub
Member
Username: Oladub
Post Number: 1348
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 7:17 pm: | |
Vic, You got hustled. Maybe Obama is a secret Muslim too, right? The same 1980's story was simultaneously introduced on the Daily Kos and the neocon websites as a smear campaign when Ron Paul's campaign was starting to raise a lot of money. The head of the Austin Texas NAACP who has known Ron Paul for many years said that Ron Paul didn't have a racist bone in his body. (link here http://www.redpills.org/?p=747 ) His statement pretty much put an end to the smear campaign. However, a more valid and related criticism might be to question why the newsletter was still in existence and being ghostwritten long after Ron Paul had quit the House to resume his private OB practice in Texas.
If I were going to ask questions about racism, I would ask which politicians vote for policies that get more than their share of blacks killed in unconstitutional wars, destroy the job base creating more unemployment among the poor, and keep stringing blacks along in such a way that they too often remain more dependent than free.
One black Ron Paul supporter I met was for Ron Paul because his brother was in prison for dealing drugs and saw Ron Paul as the one politician who challenged the 'war on drugs' that resulted in a war on the young males in his neighborhood. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1360
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:34 pm: | |
Who fucking cares about Ron Paul? The election was four months ago, and his shtick was tired long before that. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19723
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:28 pm: | |
He may be relevant in the growing conservative resurgence. |
Oladub
Member
Username: Oladub
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 12:55 am: | |
In addition to somewhat shifting the direction of the Republican Party from neocon/religious right to Constitutional/libertarian, Ron Paul has introduced H.R.1207 that now has 46 co-sponsors. It would give more power to Congress to oversee the Federal Reserve. Democrats who have been demanding more banking regulations should be falling all over themselves to get on board as co-sponsors. http://tinyurl.com/dka9o2 Anyone who doesn't support this modest resolution should be identified as part of the problem. |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 2633
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 12:59 pm: | |
"He may be relevant in the growing conservative resurgence."
"The growing conservative resurgence"? Enjoy your Disneyland version of political reality. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9147
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 2:42 pm: | |
Oladub,
Finally had a moment to read the chart-maker's analysis of their own algorithm.
One of the descriptors of the extreme left edge indicates that it is VOLUNTARY collectivism...so your assumption, from your well-seeded indoctrination, that any and all communism must be capital-C Communism enforced via authoritarianism is misquided at least, or you may simply misunderstand a concept of social and economic FREEDOM...all of those in this quadrant are probably THE most laissez-faire and copacetic of any and all whom they share space and time with.
It has NOTHING to do with the meager tolerance ego-centrics can muster up in a pinch.
MOST people I comfortably associate with exist solidly in the SW quadrant and are grossly misunderstood by the rest of civilized society who focus on themselves first.
BTW, the least freedom exists the closer one gets to the top of the chart. The DENIAL experienced encroaching the top half and amplified approaching that top line of the graph is exactly that taught by said indoctrination and allowable ONLY because of an unbalanced sense of self! |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19741
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 4:18 pm: | |
It doesn't matter if it is voluntary collectivism or not...just like it doesn't matter if it is voluntary slavery or not. The moral absolute here is that collectivism is a failing social ideology and contrary to the principles of individual liberty...the core distinction between the US (at least of the past) and other nations. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9148
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 6:35 pm: | |
You really don't know the difference between your ideology and reality, do you Cc?
Moral absolute, indeed. Heh. Wow.
What flavor is that kool-aid?! |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 7993
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 8:05 pm: | |
It is always best to keep definitions fluid, therefore you are always right. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19795
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 8:38 pm: | |
Gannon, be a student of history and watch the future when it comes to the outcomes of collectivist/socialist nations. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8790
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 10:18 am: | |
Bats, if you consider yourself a student of history, you certainly have not proven it, given that virtually every time you mention anything historical, you have been proven wrong |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2096
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 11:07 am: | |
Looks like I am the most liberal, and therefore the most intellectually enlightened. |
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