 
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19337
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 11:22 pm: |    |
I am ok with the defense spending, not the entitlement spending under GWB |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4532
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 12:34 am: | |
quote:Did they earn their degrees for free? On the tax payers' dime?
In many cases, yes. Foreign governments regularly send their best students to the U.S. to obtain a college education. For a time, I worked in an office processing grad school applications. As part of the application process, foreign students were required to document their ability to pay the full cost of their education. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 1:10 pm: | |
So were any of them that you know getting free education at the hands of taxpayers as sstashmoo implied? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4540
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 1:19 pm: | |
quote:So were any of them that you know getting free education at the hands of taxpayers as sstashmoo implied?
From the taxpayers of their home countries, yes. I'm sure a lot of them (especially the Chinese) would have loved to have been able to stay, but their visas mandate that they return home as soon as they complete their degree. These aren't exactly illiterate migrant farmers that we're shooing away--these are badly-needed engineers. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3640
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 1:24 pm: | |
Begging to differ: I don't think these engineers are as badly needed as some say, Dan. One of the writers who's been talking about H-1B's is Paul Craig Roberts. Here's what he wrote a few weeks ago:
"Congress has had a parade of CEOs, ranging from Bill Gates of Microsoft and IBM brass on down the line, to testify that they desperately need more H-1B work visas for foreign employees as they cannot find enough American software engineers and IT workers to grow their businesses. Yet, all the companies who sing this song have established records of replacing American employees with H-1B workers who are paid less."
When so many engineers with degrees can't find jobs in this country, what does it say to keep handing out H-1B visas like penny candy? Or am I laboring under some misconception here? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4542
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 1:43 pm: | |
quote:When so many engineers with degrees can't find jobs in this country, what does it say to keep handing out H-1B visas like penny candy? Or am I laboring under some misconception here?
Well, you're talking strictly about computer engineers and computer programmers, for one. To extrapolate that to all fields of engineering is a bit dicey, at best.
In my professional experience, I've only ever known firms that were short-handed, but not too many engineers in desperate need of work. There will always be a need for well-educated engineers.
I don't think we should be handing out H-1B visas like penny candy. But when we discourage math and science in our secondary schools ("it's too hard") and we end up with nothing but English and Philosophy majors, we shouldn't be surprised. These foreign students are earning MS degrees and PhDs by conducting research funded with our federal tax dollars, and they're taking the knowledge back home to Southeast Asia. Is this a trend that we want to continue? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3641
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 1:55 pm: | |
Well, I look at studies like this (http://www.cis.org/H1bVisaNumb ers) and I wonder.
But maybe it's a regional thing? I'm hearing stories of engineers who are out of work. In fact, lately, I'm a little more sensitive to this issue than usual: My girlfriend's dad was an engineer for Ford for almost 20 years. He was pink-slipped a few months ago. His whole department was moved to India. (Thanks, Ford. I r-e-a-l-l-y want the government to help you now ...) |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1725
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 2:06 pm: | |
When AT&T can't staff a call center due to a lack of qualified candidates what makes you think other high tech companies won't have trouble filling their needs from the local talent pool.
quote:But when we discourage math and science in our secondary schools ("it's too hard") and we end up with nothing but English and Philosophy majors, we shouldn't be surprised
I couldn't agree more. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1867
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 4:27 pm: | |
So Danindc, what does your story have to do with American taxpayers funding foreigners to come here, get an education, and then return home as sstashmoo suggests?
There were foreigners that went to school with you and then they returned to their home countries. No shit, nobody has disputed that, in fact I think it's common knowledge. Your story is useless to us because sstashmoo says that people come here, get a free education (presumably on our dime), and then return home. I asked him who does this and he has refused to respond. Then you come and tell us that there were foreigners at your university that returned home after graduation. Great, good for you. Since your story is missing one of the three elements of sstashmoo's statement, it's useless to this discussion. Thanks anyway, though. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3645
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 4:37 pm: | |
Well, if we can't get anecdotal here from time to time (whether it's relevant or not) what's the fun?
THIS NONRESEARCHED, UNSCHOLARLY COMMENT WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY DETROITNERD  |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4544
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 4:46 pm: | |
Cheddar Bob:
I quote myself (My Post #4542 at 1:43 PM)
quote:These foreign students are earning MS degrees and PhDs by conducting research funded with our federal tax dollars, and they're taking the knowledge back home to Southeast Asia. Is this a trend that we want to continue? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4545
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 4:48 pm: | |
Basically, our government funds development of new technologies and analytical tools--which graduate students take home to China, Singapore, India, Malaysia--you name it, where they commercialize the technologies they developed using U.S. taxpayer-funded research.
Makes you wonder why Chad and Trixie Trust Fund are skipping Psych 101 to do lines of blow. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 5:29 pm: | |
Danindc, so they are conducting research with tax dollars, who gives a shit? That has nothing to do with who is paying their tuition. Do you have first hand knowledge of foreigners' tuition being paid for by taxpayers? If not, a simple "No" will suffice. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3443
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 6:37 pm: | |
Citigroup Curbs Foreign-Student Loans at Harvard, MIT
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ news?pid=20601213&sid=aHmNC4sO eFjk&refer=home
""The global financial crisis is prompting Citigroup to raise standards of creditworthiness. Other lenders are unlikely to pick up the slack, partly because international students have a higher probability of default than U.S. students and loan companies want to minimize risk when credit is tight, said analyst Mark Kantrowitz of Finaid.org.""
"International students Default on their loans" means they don't repay their loans. They just leave with a free education. Very well known issue and has been for years. US taxpayers will pick up the tab.
(I was waiting for the article to come out today
(Message edited by Sstashmoo on March 11, 2009) |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 7:09 pm: | |
US taxpayers are picking up the tab for private loans? I don't think so. Since you're article says that foreign students are not eligible for federal aid, how do gather that taxpayers are picking up the tab for defaults on loans through private companies?
Your original statement, "A lot of them come here, get a free education and then go back home" is still in question. The number of foreign students defaulting on private loans is still very small. If you had said, "Very few of them come here, get a free education, and then go back home.", you would have a more accuarate statement. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3444
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 7:52 pm: | |
Quote: "US taxpayers are picking up the tab for private loans?"
The way our system works: If you own a bank and make a bunch bullshit loans, don't worry. The Government using taxpayer money will come and bail you out. So you see, When someone comes here and gets a loan and simply blows out on it, the taxpayers ultimately pick up the tab. They got it for free.
I think you are going to have to concede on this one. Wrong again.. as usual. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1870
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 9:13 pm: | |
So you're saying that the government bailout of the banks was due to foreigners not paying their loans? Because I'm saying that the bailout had very little and probably nothing to do with foreigners not paying back their private loans. Also, presuming that the bailout had anything whatsoever to do with foreigners defaulting on loans is preposterous and flat out stupid.
quote:Wrong again.. as usual.
I see what you did there. You took something that I often say to you and you just turned around and said the exact same thing to me. Kinda like "I know you are but what am I?". Funny. How do come up with such orginal material? Does someone help you with it, or something? Because I don't see how a single person can come up with such hilarious, original content. Do you already have an act? I think you could be really successful at Ridley's Comedy Castle, or something. Maybe even one of those shows like America's Top Comic. A talent such as yours should not go undiscovered. I can't stop laughing. I'm amazed at how funny it can be to just take what someone else says and then say the same thing back to them. Original. Funny and original. You're a regular Carlos Mencia. Oh, wait...Mencia is an unfunny rip off artist and that doesn't describe you at all. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19344
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 9:17 pm: | |
Correct. But you forgot that the government forced the banks to make those bs loans in the first place. You also forgot to mention that the government set up a laundering operation in the form of Freddy and Fannie to create the illusion that those loans were investment quality assets. There, now we have a complete picture....proceed. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3445
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 11:32 pm: | |
Quote: "You took something that I often say to you and you just turned around and said the exact same thing to me"
I think if you do a little research you'll plainly see I said that to you first....Yes I did.
Quote: "So you're saying that the government bailout of the banks was due to foreigners not paying their loans?"
Absolutely, not entirely of course. Oh what am I thinking? It's the economics of today: Where 10 grand can be pissed away and magically reappear with a funds transfer from lala-land. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4546
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 9:39 am: | |
quote:Danindc, so they are conducting research with tax dollars, who gives a shit? That has nothing to do with who is paying their tuition.
So you think it's acceptable that U.S. taxpayer dollars are used to develop industries in foreign countries, at the expense of our own efforts?
And if you think that federal research funding is irrelevant to the issue, you clearly have no idea how graduate education is funded in technical fields.
Hmmm. I think that if foreign students default on private loans made by Citibank, and then the federal government purchases a 34% share of Citibank (at the request of Citibank), then yes, the taxpayers are on the hook.
Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, though. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 220
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 2:45 pm: | |
International students are required to have a US Citizen or permanent resident as a co-signer if they take out a bank loan.
Also what percent of student loans are for International Students? 1%?
What percent of high tech firms started in the US are started by immigrants? Complaining about International students is just plain dumb.
Really, complaining about International students is akin to aguing about the car CD player while your brakes are broken and you are heading towards a cliff at 100mpg. Meaning your priorities are wrong. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4547
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 4:47 pm: | |
It's not the international students that are the problem. The problem is, after using public money to fund their education, we kick 'em back to their home countries instead of letting them stay.
But you'd know that if you've been reading the thread. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 4:48 pm: | |
quote:So you think it's acceptable that U.S. taxpayer dollars are used to develop industries in foreign countries, at the expense of our own efforts?
I think it's a worthwhile gamble when they stay here. When you get people like Sergey Brin, Jerry Yang, and Andrew Grove who found or help start companies like Intel, Yahoo, Google, Sun Microsystems, and Ebay, it's a big win. If the current immigration laws were in effect before these people started these companies I think they would have been started in other countries.
quote:And if you think that federal research funding is irrelevant to the issue, you clearly have no idea how graduate education is funded in technical fields.
It's not that I don't think it's relevant to the issue as a whole. I think it's irrelevant to the narrowly defined statement that sstashmoo made.
quote:Hmmm. I think that if foreign students default on private loans made by Citibank, and then the federal government purchases a 34% share of Citibank (at the request of Citibank), then yes, the taxpayers are on the hook.
I agree, but this is a recent development, in that Citi as a private company was on the hook for defaulted loans up until very recently. Also, the amount of defaulted loans by foreigners passed on to the American taxpayer is very, very small. Not "A lot" as sstashmoo said. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3447
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 7:45 pm: | |
Quote: "but this is a recent development, in that Citi as a private company was on the hook for defaulted loans up until very recently."
When banks write off bad debt, they can declare the loss against their income and as a result pay less tax than they should. Nothing is free. When Banks and Corporations pay less tax than they should, you know where Fed's get it instead? Nothing "recent" about this problem, it's been going on for years. And of course a tax deferment is only advantageous when an entity is making a profit.
Quote: " Not "A lot" as sstashmoo said."
How much do you think it would take for a multi-billion dollar entity to make a formal decision and change policy? 50, 100 dollars? Try millions. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19361
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 7:54 pm: | |
Except, guess what? All corporate taxes, ALL OF THEM, are passed on to consumers in the form of increased prices for goods and services. Cut out the middle man and eliminate corporate taxes altogether. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1872
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 9:35 pm: | |
Sstashmoo, you said that "A lot of them come here, get a free education and then go back home".
You're wrong. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3449
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 10:38 pm: | |
How am I wrong? They come here borrow money and don't repay it. They get it for free. Same as. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1873
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 10:49 pm: | |
A lot of them, or a few of them? |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3450
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 10:49 pm: | |
How am I wrong? They come here borrow money and don't repay it. They get it for free. Same as. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 221
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 2:39 am: | |
What!? Source for your claim please.
Who comes here and borrows money for school from American banks and doesn't repay it? Come on, provide a source. Please, provide some numbers.
Whats your problem with people that pay their own way and get an education here in the US? Seriously.
I'll repeat this again for you. International students are required to have a US Citizen or permanent resident as a co-signer if they take out a bank loan from a US bank. Most, by far, foreign students don't take out a loan from a US bank or any US entity.
If anything foreign students paying FULL price for school ease the price burden for American students. Why do you think so many schools go after foreign students? They pay the full cost and are good acedemically.
Here is another thought. Americans need to apply themselves academically. How may of the students at the top programs are either immigrants or children of immigrants? A much higher number than you would think.
So come provide a source for your claim. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3451
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 9:24 am: | |
Quote: "Who comes here and borrows money for school from American banks and doesn't repay it?"
Oh, nobody, Citi changed their policy just in case. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19393
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 11:03 pm: | |
They don't repay the loans without consequence? Hard to believe. If true, the old adage of "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" should be applied to any bank offering the loans.
Of course, if they are government loans, all bets are off. |
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