 
Thafuzz
Member
Username: Thafuzz
Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 9:55 am: |    |
Birdie: There's no harm at all in making inquiries. But as Lugotown and others mentioned above, Whole Foods and other retailers have particular criteria that a potential location needs to meet before they consider locating there. Unfortunately, down/midtown Detroit will not meet any of those requirements outright, and has economic, physical and cultural barriers to the ones that it does. The topic of "Why doesn't (fill blank with major retail chain) have a Detroit location?" comes up on this site too often, and it always ends in the same fashion: the detached-from-reality dreamers whine, blame and decry the Debbie Downers, and ignore the facts that are offered to enrich the conversation. My Debbie Downerism isn't an attack at the question, it's an attack on the attitude of the perpetually deluded armchair Detroit lovers.
As for any information pertaining to the population of urban hipsters...I have no statistics from a credible source off-hand, just assumptions based on random observations. Other than the worldwide economic downturn, it seems like the sales and development of condos, apartments, etc. in the down/midtown areas have come to a standstill. If there has been an increase of habitation...where are all these people going?
Hans57: Thank you. To quote Fark, some of these DY contributors make me feel stabby sometimes! |
Williamsfamilyfungi
Member
Username: Williamsfamilyfungi
Post Number: 32
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 9:56 am: | |
Buy the shiitakes from the A2 co-op, 80% chance I grew them. Forgive the shameless self-promotion but try the Ypsi co-op for a wider variety of stuff I've grown. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3510
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 10:14 am: | |
Oh, great. Yeah, let's open up a Whole Paychecks right in the poorest downtown in the country. Great idea.
I swear, do you people all live in Ann Arbor or something? If I hear one more person say that the answer is a Traitor Joe's or a Whole Food Budget in Detroit, I'm gonna off myself. |
Lugotown
Member
Username: Lugotown
Post Number: 54
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:05 am: | |
i was sad to see the food co-op go away. yes, they were barely hanging on after they moved behind the masonic temple. there was something that happened with the management stealing money. it was down right sad going in there after so many great years on cass & willis. where are the food co-ops in a2 and ypsi, i would love to see them. i am all for trying to start another one. have no idea of how but seems like that's the way to go.
i agree that whole foods is very expensive. i swear i go there for less than 10 items and leave spending $100. makes no sense at all. |
Birdie
Member
Username: Birdie
Post Number: 109
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:23 am: | |
thafuzz, i understand where you are coming from, and i agree that it is extremely unlikely that a whole foods will locate downtown anytime soon. although i would like a whole foods, i would much prefer more small independent businesses (which we are already getting anyway).
that said, i think that detroit has a reputation worse than its reality and if we don't promote ourselves no one will do it for us.
there may be some "perpetually deluded armchair Detroit lovers" on this site, but i try to be both realistic and optimistic, and actively work to make detroit better.
williamsfamilyfungi, i've bought shiitakes from the co-op! that's cool that you grew them. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3766
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:35 am: | |
quote:If I hear one more person say that the answer is a Traitor Joe's or a Whole Food Budget in Detroit, I'm gonna off myself.
The answer to Detroit's problems is either to get a Trader Joe's or Whole Paycheck Foods to locate downtown! 
Just kidding... |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3512
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:37 am: | |
Haha. WHAT? DID SOMEBODY JUST ...? *head explodes* |
Bobby08
Member
Username: Bobby08
Post Number: 123
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:39 am: | |
There was talk about a TJ's coming to Lafeyette Park at one time, now the downtown foodland is there. |
Pkbroch
Member
Username: Pkbroch
Post Number: 235
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:40 am: | |
I would not go to whole foods if it was one mile from Palmer Woods . The prices are outrageous, Produce quality is not as good as Westborn, variety not as good as Holiday, and no wonder my kids on tight budgets call it whole paycheck.
Also a Friend who works for them says the volume is down even with Emeril as thier Food network chief. Also some foods are just normally natural and most markets carry a good variety.
Where you shop depends on where you live I drive 1-3 miles to Ferndale and Royal Oak. Every thing I need for food is there for every day cooking and cleaning. At the price of gas, ease if parking it makes sense. For seasonal items and specialty items, I go to Eastern or Royal Oak farmers market. Living at Woodward and State Fair it is more efficent to shop closest to home. It also helps the economy of the small inner ring suburbs which enhance our lives. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3513
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:55 am: | |
Sorry if I sound real negative. I've just seen so many project that had no idea that their target community doesn't exist here, at least not enough to be profitable.
Crazy-ass plans for "Detroiters":
Whole Foods: A place where you can spend $100 just trying to put together tonight's dinner.
Trader Joe's: A place where wannabeatniks buy microwavable food in composite containers.
Starbucks: A place where people can drive up and buy $5 coffee.
Coffee Bar: A place where people can walk in and buy $6 coffee and a $10 sandwich while they read this month's *dwell*.
Upscale urban market: High rents, high prices, OK selection. Only thing the entrepreneur forgot is that this isn't Santa Cruz, Calif.
Edgy theater: That moves into a multimillion-dollar space, charges outrageous rents, then says it can't survive without "help" from the "community." Urges cash-strapped arts organizations to use the space and make special donations to keep it afloat. Meanwhile, arts organizations ignore the space, use derelict theaters and small bars, much better suited to what they're doing. Multimillion-dollar arts space languishes, irritated by "lack of community support."
Urban fashion store: Huge space, thousands of items in inventory, catering to the wealthy in a city without much money, where people really need stores that sell socks, underwear.
Postmodern art gallery: Place selling art for thousands of dollars, made of the stuff that Detroiters themselves threw away on the street for nothing.
Massive loft project: In a city where the very poorest aspire to owning single-family homes with sufficient parking.
The list goes on and on. Know your audience, entrepreneurs. You can't just move in and expect it to be Ann Arbor because you're there.  |
Texorama
Member
Username: Texorama
Post Number: 351
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 12:32 pm: | |
Actually, Whole Foods has moved into dicey neighborhoods, and it seems to have some limited power to rejuvenate them by attracting further investment. You can see it in the Texas cities, where they came from and feel they know what they're doing. An example is the store in the Dallas neighborhood called Lowest Greenville. When they moved in, it was a borderline neighborhood with a group of music clubs that were interesting enough to make people want to live near them--not so different from several Detroit neighborhoods now. Whole Foods was a real catalyst there.
I personally like Whole Foods and find plenty of options there to avoid the high-ticket items. Kilpatrick, bless his little heart, was on the right track by trying to get them here. There are more college-educated residents now than there were when he tried it--it's worth another shot. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3514
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 12:46 pm: | |
I think Whole Foods work best when a neighborhood is past the point of gentrification. Note that the Whole Foods does not drive gentrification, it's there to serve it. People with money and finer tastes move in, Whole Foods charges what the market will bear, and the neighborhood attracts more well-to-do people because of shopping options. Sorry, Tex, but I can't believe Whole Foods does not really drive rejuvenation. I'm sure it helps drive out people without money, though, which does help gentrify an area. |
Lo_to_d
Member
Username: Lo_to_d
Post Number: 114
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 12:15 pm: | |
Quote: "I can't believe Whole Foods does not really drive rejuvenation."
Ok, so we agree, Whole Foods can help drive rejuvenation. Thanks for clarifying. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3536
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 12:29 pm: | |
Haha. Thanks, Lo. Saw that this morning and yet didn't fix the double-negative. Now that you've added to the discussion, I guess I'll let it stand. |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 758
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 2:04 pm: | |
Upping this thread just because I like controversy! |
Detroitbob48209
Member
Username: Detroitbob48209
Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 6:34 pm: | |
As TRADER JOE'S is owned by ALDI, and they have located 2 stores in Detroit and 1 in Highland Park, this company might be a better bet than Whole Foods...which by the way is not doing well in the current economy (Whole Paycheck?) |
Iseries840
Member
Username: Iseries840
Post Number: 1028
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 8:24 pm: | |
This is just not going to happen. |
Jtf1972
Member
Username: Jtf1972
Post Number: 127
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 10:45 pm: | |
40
And you can find good deals at Whole Foods... Shop their 365 brand. $2.49 for a 6 pack of cane sugar soda? That's a deal to me! |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2112
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 11:12 pm: | |
Didn't realize that Trader Joe's was owned by Aldi. TJ's has pretty good stuff; Aldi's stocks low-end sh*t. |
Benjo
Member
Username: Benjo
Post Number: 52
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 12:17 am: | |
If they take the bridge card, they have a good chance of making it. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6225
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 1:08 am: | |
Aldi's sells low end items as well as imported food items, mainly from Germany (their HQ).
I found some reasonably priced really good chocolate and frozen food items that you won't find anywhere else.
But they do also sell a lot of cheaper off-brand stuff that I wouldn't buy. |
Lt_tom
Member
Username: Lt_tom
Post Number: 164
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 2:37 am: | |
How about a Fresh and Easy market? Compton has one |
Roq
Member
Username: Roq
Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 9:35 am: | |
"This is just not going to happen."
Exactly. Detroit can't even get a Kroger much less a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's. |
Roadmaster49
Member
Username: Roadmaster49
Post Number: 127
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 9:56 am: | |
Whole Foods Market is NOT coming to Detroit. We can't even get them to come to yuppie ville West Des Moines, Iowa. I tried about 5 years ago. They did respond to my email. They said NO.
Whole Foods Market is only interested in demographics with one statistic: MONEY.
That's why they are located in upper middle class enclaves only. I am sure someone could get on their website and show me "aha" this or that store isn't.
Those are older stores, before they got smart. Detroit overall is too income poor. Where are they going to put it in Detroit to appeal to their core base of younger, hip, monied urbanites?
West Des Moines has money, trust me. Mean household income is probably $125,000 higher then Detroit. And Whole Foods laughed in our face. There is plenty of real estate to locate a store in a high traffic area and it's uber clean.
Detroit is old, smelly and dirty with low incomes and a crime issue. This is not a race issue either. I frequented a Whole Foods Market when I lived in Houston and it was diverse (as Houston is diverse) but there is no getting around the fact that Detroit is 83% african American. So, in market analysis, Whole Foods would say "Is there a core group of affluent, progressive 24 to 45 years olds that will spend lot sof money at our store instead of Walmart/grocery store chain etc?
No mention of race.
BUT the rub is that 83% demographoc. So, is the 24 to 45 year old African American population in Detroit affluent,progressive, and interested in a healthier, whole foods lifestyle? Or would they prefer to get their hamburgers through the window of a fast food restaurant?
Whole Foods is NEVER coming to Detroit! |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 764
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 10:07 am: | |
What is the obsession with Whole Foods I have to ask. It really is just a chain supermarket which happens to have higher prices and fancy food that really you get at other stores for less.
You guys already got a shopping location that attracts people from across the region and that is Eastern Market. Work on making that area better.
And as for a supermarket downtown I would focus on a more middle class market. These trendy yuppie places like Whole Foods really do not fit the needs of the majority of people. And when working on reviving downtown retail, I would probably go with something that actually serves a wider market than Whole Foods. |
Rickinatlanta
Member
Username: Rickinatlanta
Post Number: 277
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 11:12 am: | |
Whole Foods carries outstanding fresh fish of all types, every cut of grain fed beef you'd want as well as great fresh produce and an incredible array of fresh spices, sauces, and ethnic food products. You can't get what Whole Foods carries in Kroger or Publix. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3855
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 12:40 pm: | |
>Roadmaster49
Maybe the reason that West Des Moines doesn't have a Whole Foods has nothing to do with how many monied white yuppies live there?
quote:Detroit is old, smelly and dirty with low incomes and a crime issue. This is not a race issue either. I frequented a Whole Foods Market when I lived in Houston and it was diverse (as Houston is diverse) but there is no getting around the fact that Detroit is 83% african American.
Detroit statistics:
81.6% Black
Median Household Income: $29,526
Birmingham statistics:
73.46% Black
Median Household Income: $26,735
Whole Foods
3100 Cahaba Village Plaza
Birmingham, AL 35243
New Orleans statistics:
67.3% Black
Median Household Income: $27,133
Whole Foods
5600 Magazine St
New Orleans, LA 70115
Baltimore statistics:
64.6% Black
Median household income: $30,078
Whole Foods
1001 Fleet St
Baltimore, MD 21202
Whole Foods
1330 Smith Ave
Baltimore, MD 21209
St. Louis statistics:
51.20% Black
Median household income: $29,156
Whole Foods
1601 S. Brentwood Blvd
St Louis, MO 63144
Philadephia statistics:
43.9% Black
Median Household income: $30,746
Population:
Whole Foods
2001 Pennsylvania Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19130
Whole Foods
929 South St
Philadelphia, PA 19147
Providence, RI statistics:
14.5% Black
Median Household income: $26,867
Whole Foods
601 N Main St
Providence, RI 02904 |
Gthomas
Member
Username: Gthomas
Post Number: 173
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 2:18 pm: | |
Lol I agree with your statistic! Why not detroit....we always get underserve for great things. People are afraid for detroit to progress and grow because they are scared we will become grand and become a world class city as we were before. If detroit die the U.S will follow right behind. |
Gthomas
Member
Username: Gthomas
Post Number: 174
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 2:38 pm: | |
How about the area just north of the fox theater off the westside of woodward and I-75. Its nothing put vacant land use for patron parking for comerica park and ford field. |
Roadmaster49
Member
Username: Roadmaster49
Post Number: 129
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 3:05 pm: | |
Iheartthed
Gotcha. Nice partial rebuttal. There are many more WFM in higher income markets. Many more. In fact, you are taking these above cities and using a macro statistic (the city) and pointing out a micro statistic (that there is a WFM in that city)
The better research would show that WFM are located within these cities in upscale neighborhoods. Catering to monied customers. These customers are of all ethnicities, WFM doesn't care - but whether white, black, hispanic or whatever, these yuppies fill their carts and swipe the plastic without ever caring what they are being charged. This is partially a status thing too.
There are WFM's in a lot of cities that have decent sized AA populations but the WFM's are no where near the AA dense areas.
Now in Detroit, the demographics in the area a WFM might be located is the only thing that matters to WFM. That Birmingham AL statistic is curious because Birmingham is a lot less affluent then greater Des Moines.
Providence = the kind of buyer they are looking for. Providence and Rhode Island is a progressive "green" stylized city-state and again, situationally - has a good deal of WFM type customers.
That St Louis store is in a ritzy upscale neighborhood a long way from the St. Louis ghetto. I know - I've been there - as I have Kansas City. So St Louis statistics are of no use in this analysis.
Most of all my point was WFM is aggresively capitalistic. Don't believe for a minute they are going to come into West Des Moines or Detroit for altruistic reasons, the CEO with a wind blown cpae claiming they are here to provide wholesome, whole food groceries for the citizenry.
Also - I believe WFM looks to tap into local farmers for organic products. Milk, some meat products and vegetables etc are purchased as much as possible from sustainable local farmers. That goes into their analysis.
And to my ethnic point for Detroit - my point is not antagonistic - it's about a culture. Perhaps there is an urban professional culture in Philadelphia, Birmingham et al among the African Americans that WFM tapped into - that this group would buy their "brand" of grocery store.
My perception - which may be flawed - is that there is no group of citizenry large enough in Detroit to support WFM's profit model. Oh, and those citizenry just happen to be predominantly black.
IF Detroit had a 24-45 year old urban professional culture that showed they would be interested in spending income on stores like WFM, then WFM would do more market research and if feasible - build a store.
But where in Detroit would that be? If you breakdown teh store locations for WFM in the markets you point out in your rebuttal I guarantee they would not necessarily be red-lined against AA, BUT they would be red-lined toward market indicators which typically exclude working class/lower income or run down neighborhoods.
So where in Detroit would be a good spot for a WFM that would support a profitable business model? Then, if that exists - pitch it to WFM not through an email, but through a well crafted on paper submission addressed to an executive in charge of new markets. |