  Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4601 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Well, it's your tax dollars funding his demolition spree, so I hope you enjoy all those lovely "regional destination" parking lots. quote: You tell me. If real estate values are any indication of desirability, which model seems to be working? Is it mere coincidence that every new suburban mall is trying to (miserably) recreate a pedestrian-oriented "town" streetscape? Is it simply chance that young college graduates (you know, those elitist intellectuals) are leaving Detroit in droves for places like Chicago, New York, and DC? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4418 Registered: 02-2005 |
3WC, you're creating a false dichotomy, I believe. To correctly point out that the type of developments that the pizza king has been building are of a certain nature is not to say that we'd be better off without those investments, but merely to observe something pertitent which strikes a note on the urban planning side of things. Urban planning is supposed to work in accord with such crucial economic development, to channel it so that there is maximum gain to the city. Proper planning can make or break the effectiveness of a major development in terms of its ability to spur additional spin-off investment, or in terms of it's ability to really make the City a distinctive destination. A well-planned City is simply a better place where more people will desire to live, work, and visit...I'd say the business interest in having planning standards is extremely high. The impact of the stadia has been notable, but perhaps it could have been greater, and perhaps the city could have been better off regardless, if, say, parking for the stadium was more vertical and less buildings had to be razed. What if Madison-Lenox and Detroit College of Law were still in place? What if the stadium was set amongst various buildings and not surface parking? Could some of those buildings been turned into unique stadium-view housing and offices like they have in Chicago or San Diego? Would that not make downtown more distinctive and more properly urban? What if the city required Illitch to place structures of a certain height instead of parking on those two lots facing Woodward, as part of their deal with him? Would they not have been in a strong position to affect the outcome in such a way? These are not unreasonable questions to ask, and they are seperate from the merit and impact of the investment per se. Economic development of a large and small scale can and should exist alongside responsible planning, and its laughable to me that you'd laugh at people who are concerned with the City's routine deriliction of their planning responsibilities. This lack of concern at the high levels explains why parts of downtown (the casino and the stadia and everything in between) are turning into a car-orientated suburban-geared landscape when they can and should be so much more. Can we not encourage developments that employ thousands of people while still maintaining standards appropriate to a major downtown? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1370 Registered: 01-2005 |
Not my tax dollars (or at least very many of them since I sold most of my Detroit assets before I moved down here), Dan. However, I do agree with you 100% that giving Ilitch all those tax dollars is ridiculous. But, that's not what the thread is about and tax dollars are irrelevant to this particular discussion. I don't know what you mean by "real estate values being an indication of desireability." I don't agree that "every new suburban mall is trying to recreate....a pedestrian-oriented 'town' streetscape." In fact, that's a ridiculous assertion. Anyway, how is it relevant to this thread? Finally, what does the brain drain have to do with this topic. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4602 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: If you aren't making the connection between these components, then I don't believe you fully understand the topic under discussion, which is to say, how the current paradigm of large physically isolated "destination" projects amid oceans of parking is contributing to a massive deurbanization of downtown Detroit. The subsidies that Ilitch is receiving to demolish buildings and construct massive parking lots is, in effect, removing the "Detroit" from Detroit, eroding any competitive advantage the city might have. It's not really Ilitch's fault, per se. The incompetent City Council and DEGC are the folks who are using Las Vegas and Troy as their models for "success", and channeling money to this spree. Ilitch is merely working within the existing perverted framework that excuses blight, discourages preservation and renovation, and encourages demolition. In the end, though, it's the taxpayers who lose, not only through the public demolition subsidies, but through failure to capitalize on massive public investments. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1338 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:Actually, it's exactly what the thread is about. Perhaps you haven't been following it from the beginning. | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 241 Registered: 06-2008 |
Maybe this is a stupid question, but why doesn't Ilitch just build a parking garage, and then the surface parking that is extra can be turned into bars and whatnot? Personally (this may just be me) but a parking garage seems more urban than acres of parking. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1682 Registered: 07-2004 |
I agree, Leannam. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1340 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:Because Ilitch isn't running a charity. If he can acquire buildings relatively cheaply, and then get the taxpayers to pay for the demolitions, all he has to do is slap some asphalt down on the lots and rake in the cash on game nights. Parking garages are much more expensive to build, and they don't generate any more revenue than surface lots. The City, apparently, is perfectly fine with what he's doing, so what incentive does he have to do things differently? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6258 Registered: 08-2004 |
As I mentioned earlier... it's not in Ilitch's interest to start redevelopment (beyond what he's already done) in the area until he has the land he needs to build an arena, or?. If he were to put all his proverbial cards on the table, then it would just drive land speculation even higher than it currently is. As 3rdworldcity mentioned in another thread, the price that Ilitch payed for that building on Grand River that was recently demolished... was a record (per square foot) for a downtown building. Somehow I don't think that he will ever profit on that parcel by just turning it into a parking lot. Ditto for other high priced parcels he's purchased in the area. As much as I don't like what he's doing with his real estate holdings, I can understand his logic for not starting ANY new developments until he has all the parcels he needs. The Ilitch's may be pushing 80... but I don't think they're using their own mortality as part of their business decisions. I think they are looking out for the family business, whether or not they live to see its' potential come to fruition. At one time (early 1990s) the Ilitch's had planned an Agora (Greek/Macedonian for marketplace) on the closed stretch of Columbia St. between Woodward and Park. Perhaps their future plans are to have a pedestrian business/entertainment district that ties together the stadia/theatre district with an arena farther west. But until they get all their ducks in a row... their silence on future plans for the area is annoying a lot of people here. (Message edited by Gistok on March 24, 2009) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4319 Registered: 10-2003 |
If that explains anything it only explains their motives in concerns to the area behind Foxtown; it does not, however, explain their motives in concern to their other properties outside of the immediate Foxtown vicinity. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4603 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Bearinabox pretty much nailed it. Simply stated, there is no such thing as "just building" a parking garage. A garage would cost around $20,000 per space to construct. Ilitch doesn't even pay to maintain or demolish his own properties with his own money--what makes one think he'd be interested in constructing and maintaining a parking garage? I also don't see what financial interest he would have in developing retail/restaurant space on his land; the name of the company is Olympia *Entertainment*. Mike Ilitch is not a developer in the least. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1371 Registered: 01-2005 |
See, Dan's wrong again. He says "Mike Ilitch is not a developer in the least." (I'm not sure Dan would know a developer is he saw one.) About 15 years ago, Ilitch created Olympia Development, LLC. I've done business with it. It's a very successful company and is responsible for developing sports venues, restaurant and other businesses. Olympia has been one of the most active developers in downtown Detroit. Parking garages can be very profitable. I know. When it becomes in his best interests Ilitch will build another one or two. Dan's claimed cost of building one could be way off, either way, depending on many factors. The cost might even be irrelevant depending on the market and other factors. Prudent persons probably should not rely on Dan for development and real estate advice. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3723 Registered: 07-2004 |
Can somebody buy 3rdworld a pair of kneepads?  | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4605 Registered: 10-2003 |
The following is quoted from the website for Ilitch Holdings: quote: So let's see: that's "negotiating" two stadium projects, opening Hockeytown Cafe and a Johnny Rockets franchise, and obtaining public financing for demolition of properties he owns--in thirteen years. That doesn't seem like a company focused too much on development, if you ask me. But, please believe what you want. The results speak for themselves. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1344 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:More likely he'll just buy a few more buildings, knock them down, and send us regular folks the bill. It's worked for him so far, why would he stop now? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3725 Registered: 07-2004 |
Olympia Development is dedicated to supporting further growth in the Foxtown sports and entertainment district in downtown Detroit. Yeah, he's just totally focused on his own fiefdom, "Foxtown," and if that's at the expense of the rest of downtown, so be it. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2006 |
Why would you encourage competition? Anything urban-like built on the skirts of foxtown would only cut into his profits. A massive suburban sea of parking is a total monoply. NO competition viaing for any offshoot business, no residential population interfering or complaining of the highly unbalanced development model, no public transit to compete with huge profits from low overhead surface street lots, an army of low-wage workers and a local government that bends over to the first dollar you throw at them. You couldn't make this up if you tried. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1372 Registered: 01-2005 |
I laugh. It's pretty obvious that you Ilitch bashers have never owned or operated a business, made a payroll, have no entreprenurial skills, haven't any idea of how the business system works and so on. The concepts appear to be foreign to you. Yet, you all know what a very successful guy like Ilitch is doing wrong or should be doing differently, to satisfy your owns worldviews. I sense a profound sense of antagonism towards those who have been successful in business. Especially if that success is allegedly at the expense of concepts you hold near and dear. There's not a thing wrong with being antagonistic towards business people, for whatever reason. Just don't act like you're so damned superior to financially successful people, especially folks who have made such hugh improvements to the City, far more than all of you put together. There's nothing wrong about being ignorant or uninterested in the business world, because the world needs a few theorists, intellectuals, ivory tower thinkers, especially urban planners, without whom the world would surely collapse. (STOP: I don't want to hear about the abuses by businesspeople who with the advice and consent of the Congress and the Administrations [current and past] have so screwed up the country. No argument from me on that score. Just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4608 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: It's pretty obvious 3rdworldcity thinks he's better than everyone else. The rest of us are mere serfs in his kingdom of capitalism. I'll criticize Ilitch as much as I damn well please. No single person has done more to destroy Detroit's history, it's urbanity, and it's potential as Mike Ilitch. I, for one, have never fleeced taxpayers for my own personal gain, nor have I pounded a city I "love" into rubble through neglect and dereliction of responsibility. So yeah, fuck him and "his" money. I consider myself superior. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4578 Registered: 02-2004 |
Illitchville, Home of endless parking lots and entertainment venues. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4419 Registered: 02-2005 |
You're really making things black and white, again, 3WC, with the unneccesary dichotomies. I would be the last person to bash a successful business person especially one that has certainly done on-balance good things for Detroit (in terms of jobs and activity created that might not otherwise be there). To observe that the successful model has been responsible for removing and fundamentally changing so much of the face of downtown is to say nothing about his proficiency as a business person and whether we hate him for being successful, but rather, to say that there has been a social cost and a major set of externalities associated with his activities-- which the City is certainly complicit in. Let's be clear, in this thread and in many other threads on DYes, most people have shown discontent with Illitch for tangible reasons such as his slumlording which operates alongside Olympia, and his undeniable contribution to the destruction of significant buildings which operates alongside a handful of highly notable works of preservation that he's done. It's not that he's rich, it's the impact that he's had. Corporate citizenship and stewardship count for something. Even multi-billionaires are part of society. And you could reasonably argue that, because they have so much power and resources, they should contribute to that society in ways that aren't limited to creating jobs. As I stated in another thread-- about the 2030 Grand River demo-- Illitch has been nothing more than an average corporate citizen, and his stock dropped even lower when he took government monies in a time of fiscal crisis to remove buildings, at least a couple of which were highly valuable testaments to Detroit's history. (Message edited by mackinaw on March 24, 2009) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6261 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well for all he bad things that Ilitch has done... and I agree there are many... he then does something that some of us have overlooked... he saved the Masonic Temple. Without his intervention, the Masonic Temple would be a 1,038 room cold empty behemoth. They shut the electricity off on the Book Tower, and look how well it has fared since. Now imagine the scrappers that would be feeding off the Masonic had Ilitch not intervened, paid their mounting electric bill, taken over booking from the Nederlander folks (who have had a checkered history at best of promoting the Masonic) nnd helped save one of the crown jewels of Detroit. Although I completely disagree with his use of public money for demolition, I think that in his own mind he's doing so because he's paying an enormous amount of taxes on his Detroit property, and he probably feels justified getting some of it back. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1347 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:...your ass off all the way to the bank, right? How much is it costing me this time? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1373 Registered: 01-2005 |
WOW. Danny, you have really overreacted to my post. Not unexpected, I guess. You say it's "pretty obvious" I think I'm better than anyone else. What in the world would lead you to make such an accusation, other than frustration of having someone who you think is intellectually inferior comment unfavorably on your views? Hell, I don't think I'm superior to anybody. I don't think in those terms (as you apparently do) because I'm old enough to know I'm not the smartest, wealthiest, kindest, most tolerant guy around. I try, but I'll never be the best there is at anything. And, that doesn't bother me a bit. You say you'll criticize Ilitch "as much as you damn well please." Well, of course you will. Nobody says you shouldn't. Certainly, not me. Just don't be offended that some consider your views as ignorant, fueled by antagonism over things that are not the apparent topic of your rage (his wealth), and very, very infantile and humorous. It's always a tell when folks resort to using "fuck" in their arguments. Doesn't add to your credability. More or less an admission of intellectual deficiency and an inability to articulate a losing argument. (Take a look at Mackinaw's posts. They are polite, articulate and well reasoned. I just don't happen to agree with him. Learn from him.) I respectfully point out that your habit of using "his" in quotes in all your posts to refer to Ilitch's properties is quite annoying. Stop it. (Message edited by 3rdworldcity on March 24, 2009) | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 658 Registered: 02-2006 |
"No single person has done more to destroy Detroit's history, it's urbanity, and it's potential as Mike Ilitch... No single person has done more to destroy Detroit's history, it's urbanity, and it's potential as Mike Ilitch. I, for one, have never fleeced taxpayers for my own personal gain, nor have I pounded a city I "love" into rubble through neglect and dereliction of responsibility." Easy, I thought this was an Illitch thread not a Kwame thread. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4609 Registered: 10-2003 |
3wc, I have a little difficulty reconciling these two statements by you: quote: quote: Just because two people disagree on one item of opinion, doesn't justify your crass and unsubstantiated assumptions about others. quote: I don't see how whether or not I (or anyone else) have employees makes me more or less qualified to comment, or less naive in this matter, as you suggest. You are the one resorting to judgments and personal attacks, rather than trying to understand a differing opinion. I've informally, (and to a degree, professionally) studied issues of urban development for the past ten years, so I believe that I do have knowledge and expertise on which to base an opinion. Please spare me the lectures--they're nothing short of patronizing and don't contribute anything constructive to the discussion. quote: Let's look at a bit of recent history, shall we? Ilitch does not own Comerica Park. Ilitch was handed parking lots, purchased by the City of Detroit, for which he charges $20 a car to park. Ilitch was given taxpayer money to demolish the Madison-Lenox. Use of the word "his" in quotation marks when referring to these transactions is more than appropriate. I suggest that it's permissive and apologetic attitudes, such as yours, toward Mike Ilitch that time and again allows him to bend the City of Detroit over whenever he seeks to embark on more, um, "development". | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1284 Registered: 07-2007 |
3rdworldcity turned this into a personality pissing contest because Ilitch's actions aren't defensible. The criticisms of Ilitch's actions are legitimate. But 3rdworldcity, unable to defend them, turned on the critics claiming that they hate businessmen and people of considerable wealth. Nice attempt to distract from your inability to make an argument on Ilitch's part but you failed. Why does Ilitch take heat here? 1) Most of the buildings downtown that he's acquired, he's failed to maintain much less restore. When anyone else acts like this, they're called a slumload. Why should Ilitch be treated any differently? In many cases, he acquired these buildings in sweetheart deals with the development authorities in Detroit. 2) When the buildings that he's failed to maintain fall into a state of disrepair, his preferred approach is demolition, no matter what the historical significance of the building. 3) Whenever possible, he takes advantage of his political connections to score public tax dollars to fund the demolition of the buildings he owns. 4) Once the buildings are demolished, despite claims that the demolitions will facilitate development, no such development has taken place. 5) Ilitch pushes for suburban style development in the city even though such development has been shown in city after city to be harmful to the long-term health of the urban areas that border those kinds of development. In summary, Ilitch largely acts like a slumlord who pushes for demolition on the taxpayer dime and his developments have failed to be the catalysts for change that they could have been had they followed basic principles of urban development that work in every other urban center where they are followed. Feel free to defend any or all practices of Mr. Ilitch. (Message edited by novine on March 25, 2009) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4420 Registered: 02-2005 |
That's a pretty good restatement of the indictment against Illitch, Novine. For more on the manipulation that occurs pursuant to point no. 3, see the lovely sidebar on this website regarding political donations: http://www.theverifiabletruth. com/ | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 633 Registered: 04-2004 |
"I laugh. It's pretty obvious that you Ilitch bashers have never owned or operated a business, made a payroll, have no entreprenurial skills, haven't any idea of how the business system works and so on. The concepts appear to be foreign to you." Selling pizzas yes. Managing, maintaining, repairing vacant structures....No. You know this, it need not be explained further. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1375 Registered: 01-2005 |
OK, Dan first. I don't feel I'm superior to anyone. However, my guess is that I have substantially more real estate development experience than most on here. There were probably over 100 factors that Ilitch had to consider in deciding where to place the stadium, how to finance it, how to build it ad infinitum. It had to be located close to Ford Field, and satify the Ford family since the two are closely interrelated as to parking, utilities and traffic. Ilitch had many high priced advisors re: placement of the stadium, traffic engineers, utility consultants, architects, civil engineers and so on. Yet you people, when you're not arguimg over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, apparently believe that Ilitch's only consideration with respect to the whole process was whether to situate the stadium right on Woodward or back where it's at now. Your criticisms of Ilitch evidence a profound lack of understanding of the large project develpoment process, and your lack of such understanding permits you (all of you) to wail and knash your teeth over his alleged lack of proper planning by building it where it is. I'm sure that had he built the stadium right on Woodward there would be an equal number of you crucifing him for fouling the "Woodward streetscape." I said what I did because I do not believe that anyone experienced in business believes that what Ilitch has accomplished should be subject to so much amateur criticism. If Roger Penske stood up and criticized Ilitch for his alleged development and business shortcomings I'd listen carefully. But you have no credibility so therefore I usually find your comments very humorous from a real world standpoint. One final comment, Dan; you use the word "urbanity" frequently, as in "Ilitch has dstroyed Detroit's urbanity." To me it's a typical bullshit word used by those who are spinning something that we mere mortals wouldn't understand anyway. Perhaps you'd like to show me I'm wrong. Now, Novine: I defy you to prove I've turned this into a personality pissing contest. You must be very thin skinned. I'd say it's not I but others who have done that if in fact you think that's what has ocurred. The numbered points in your post are just more of the same, unsubstantiated accusations. How many buildings has he acquired? Which ones has he failed to maintain? What maintainence standards do you refer to. (I'll acknopwledge one, the United Artists, but he's rehabbing that currently, I understand.) Which historically significant buildings has he demolished? Please, don't list the Madison - Lennox. If you do, please explain its historical significan to anyone other than a handful of forumers on here. Most development, especially in this economy, has long lead times. Anyway, the site of M-L looks far, far better today than it did before the demolistion. If you understood the development process and the factors involved you'd not be so quick to criticize. More importantly, the guy can do whatever he wants with his properties as long as his actions or inaction is not against the law. You don't like it buy your own property and do with it what you want. You people act like it's YOUR property he's not managing as you wish. Your point #5 above is unmittigated bullshit. I state that as I have to avoid unnecessary confrontation. What the hell is "suburban style development?" If you know. What are the cities ("city after city") that have been ruined by it. It appears you and Dan read the same urban planning textbooks. Finally, I agree with one point. I am totally against corporate welfare and the inordinate use of tax dollars to accomplish development, regardless of who gets the bucks. What's interesting is that you people are so inconsistant. You bash Ilitch, but you wet yourselves over the Book Cadilac. How do you think that one got renovated? TAX DOLLARS. Had it been torn down, your local tax dollars would have paid for it. Finally, what are these so-called "basic principles of urban development" you guys reference. Who formulated them (if such things exist?) I know a little about urban planning (studied urban development law in law school) and I know there are countless such practices and their use depends on a myriad of factors. How many such principles do you think there are? Five? Ten? 100? 200? Name the cities that have prospered as a result of their use; you allege there are many. Frankly, in my former life, I made a pretty good living fighting overreaching municipalities over development matters. They always raise urban planning when they try to extract something from you they're not entitled to. Actually, I've dealt with the Ilitch's on a couple of occasions. My dealings were not positive experiences, frankly. I don't trust them, especially Mirian. Nevertheless, I do believe in giving the devil his due, and in their case, overall they have contributed far more to the City than anyone else and are to be commended for their efforts. |
