 
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 912
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:02 pm: |    |
Luis Gutierrez will be in town tomorrow night, hyping his "amnesty for illegal immigrants" position, along with John Conyers & Mama Cheeks-Kilpatrick..
Is anyone planning to attend, or to protest?
I can't believe the audacity of the three headliners, myself..appearing in a debt-ridden city with a soaring unemployment rate to beg for support for a free ride for illegals.
I'm kind of interested in hearing what the D-Yes take on this issue is..and maybe looking to carpool if anyone else would like to cruise down and show some righteous outrage.
So..anyone? |
Sciencefair
Member
Username: Sciencefair
Post Number: 160
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:16 pm: | |
I don't know much about the issue at hand, but wouldn't it benefit the city to transform these illegal immigrants into tax-paying citizens? With the population declining, it seems that we could add a few numbers to the books as long as they pay taxes like the rest of us. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 974
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:23 pm: | |
My grandmother was an illegal immigrant. She raised five American children. All three sons served in the Armed Forces in WWII. My father contracted a life-long blood disease serving his country in the Pacific Theater.
Of my illegal immigrant grandmother's 11 grandchildren, eight are college graduates and and most of those have graduate degrees. All 11 are working tax-paying members of society.
If we are talking about illegal Mexican immigrants (and there are not many of other nationalities), I live in their SW Detroit community and I find them to be fine industrious neighbors. They pay taxes. They work hard. They deserve to be allowed to become U.S. citizens just as my Grandmother was allowed despite the fact that she arrived illegally at the beginning. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 914
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:23 pm: | |
OR, we could simply enforce the laws already on the books, deport their parasitic asses, and give their jobs to some nice unemployed American folks who arrived here LEGALLY.
Other than providing another new batch of instant Democrats, what concievable good would short-circuiting the immigration process do? |
Bte_in_va
Member
Username: Bte_in_va
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:26 pm: | |
^so they should be allowed to jump ahead of the line for those who wish to come here legally??
why didnt your grandmother go through the due process to become a legal immigrant??
i find it funny that in detroit, that cries about cheap foreign labor car importers, yet it wants to protect cheap illegal alien labor providors.. |
D_mcc
Member
Username: D_mcc
Post Number: 1785
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:26 pm: | |
...Doug... You're walking a tight-rope right about now...
there's another Detroit blog that will gladly take that type of writing |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 975
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:30 pm: | |
I guess that my Grandmother grabbed an opportunity. That made her a good fit for America, I think. By the way, she was an Irish girl! I wonder if that makes a difference - maybe the viscious anti-amnesty people are only worried about brown illegal immigrants. |
Bobl
Member
Username: Bobl
Post Number: 688
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:32 pm: | |
Let those who have followed the rules in first. Let those who have broken the law leave, then come back legally.
Meanwhile, let's all show each other a modicum of respect. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 915
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:34 pm: | |
I really don't much give a shit, D_mcc..if the truth hurts, too fargin' bad.
The reality is that this is an extremely depressed economy, our taxes aren't even sufficient to float our OWN boats at this point, and you wish to encourage stowaways?
Southwest, when your great grandmother came here, how many taxpayer-based programs existed that she drew upon? Who paid for her ER visits, or for the birth of all those children?
My guess would be that she and her family bore the brunt of those burdens, because the welfare state didn't exist at that time.
Compare that to today, and see if you can figure out where the similarity ends. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1742
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:36 pm: | |
quote:maybe the viscious anti-amnesty people are only worried about brown illegal immigrants
Just the new whipping boy until it is no longer acceptable and they find a new one. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 531
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:42 pm: | |
Yep, wouldn't want to encourage prosperity now, would we?
Only neighborhood in Detroit with immigrants (legal or otherwise): SW Detroit.
Only neighborhood in Detroit actually growing and improving: SW Detroit. |
Sciencefair
Member
Username: Sciencefair
Post Number: 161
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:47 pm: | |
Well said Crawford.
Doug, on a list of Detroit's problems, is illegal immigration really your top pick? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3885
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:47 pm: | |
quote:Only neighborhood in Detroit with immigrants (legal or otherwise): SW Detroit.
Completely false. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 916
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:48 pm: | |
Yes, you're right..it's all about race!
It has nothing at all to do with the millions of dollars they're costing the country every year, the jobs they're stealing from honest Americans, or anything else based in fact..it's all about their skin tone.
You got me.
Darn.
On behalf of my best friend's parents, a Mexican-American couple who worked damned hard to get here LEGALLY..and who treat me like a second son, I'd like to say "kiss my ass." |
Bte_in_va
Member
Username: Bte_in_va
Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:49 pm: | |
sounds like SW Detroit needs some union organizing so it can join in the prosperity of the rest of Detroit?? |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 976
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:54 pm: | |
It was my grandmother. Right, not too many safety net programs then. But even without the safety net, she wanted to be an American. Maybe you are thinking that the illegal immigrants are going through hell to get to the U.S. because of the "safety net?" Hardly.
I think the legal immigrants are the ones gaming the system. The illegals just lie low and don't draw attention. And they WORK! |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 917
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:54 pm: | |
"Doug, on a list of Detroit's problems, is illegal immigration really your top pick?"
On a list of America's problems, it's in my top ten..and the poster-boy for immigration reform will be in town tomorrow.
Apathy accomplishes nothing..ya gotta stand up for what you believe in, or stand by and watch it be defeated..I choose the former over the latter every time.
How 'bout you?
So hey..anyone interested in doing some picketing? |
Cloud_wall
Member
Username: Cloud_wall
Post Number: 57
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:58 pm: | |
Some of Doug's best friends are Mexican, people! Lay off. And they have even channeled their feelings on this matter through him. So, seriously, don't try to make this about race. Doug doesn't see color.
People who are here working and owning homes pay income tax, property tax, and sales tax. I agree, law and order is the way to go, but with the business community actively supporting the current system, "illegal" immigration has the government's tacit blessing. Not everything is as clear as black and white. Oh wait, Doug, you can't see the difference. I mean, not everything is as clear as legal and illegal. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 532
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:58 pm: | |
Iheartthed, please tell me one other sizable immigrant neighborhood in Detroit? There are none.
The only other possibility would be like 5-10 blocks of Bangladeshis bordering Hamtramck, but I'm talking about major concentrations (like 40,000 Mexicans), not a few hundred folks in N.E. Detroit.
There were some Hmong in N.E. Detroit and Chaldeans on 7 Mile, but those communities have largely disappeared.
There are a few Arabs in Warrendale and bordering Dearborn in general, but not enough to really transform the neighborhood.
Maybe there are a few Africans on the Detroit side of 8 Mile in NW Detroit? I have heard of Africans living off 8 Mile, but most of the African immigrants live in Southfield or Oak Park, not within the city limits. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 918
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:02 pm: | |
Dude..next time you meet a contemporary illegal immigrant, ask him/her where their children go to the doctor, how the bills are paid..ask them if they are drawing any form of public assistance.
Finally, ask them how it is that they are (as you say) "paying taxes" when they have no taxpayer ID?
Last but not least..it's a big ol' internet. Stroll away from Detroit for a moment and ask the parts of this nation that have a REAL influx of illegals what they have to say about it..
Mr. Gutierrez, Ms. Pelosi, and the millions of illegals will back up your side of the story..the folks who are footing the bill seem to feel differently. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2540
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:08 pm: | |
Doug hasn't said anything that is out-of-bounds. He has not brought skin color or even nationality to the discussion. He hasn't come out against immigration, just illegal immigration. To suggest that even bringing up the subject is somehow code-speak is a distasteful attempt at squashing debate.
Ample evidence shows that illegals are routinely abused by sub-par wages and working conditions. They've been manipulated by check-cashing scams and unscrupulous landlords.
Currently Detroit is a sanctuary city were neither police or social service workers can report someones illegal status to the Feds.
The illegal underground economy is fraught with problems in the creation of a permanent underclass of non-citizens. A shadow world where the fellow-travelers of drugs, guns and utility theft run rampant.
By my lights, if you are in favor of illegal immigration you are expressing chauvinistic North American superiority over the rest of the world. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 783
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:09 pm: | |
Oh Crawford.
What would you say to the people that have followed the rules and waited in line?
What could you say to them? Sorry? Or thanks for waiting, but it never mattered anyway.
Apparently following the rules is for suckers these days. Look what happens when you don't follow the rules:
You get mortgage relief from taxpaying citizens.
Failed companies get bailed out by taxpaying citizen.
That extra kid you couldn't afford gets bailed out by taxpaying citizens.
You can circumvent the labor pool by hiring illegal workers at under-the-table wages and put your small business competitors out of business. (By the way, amnesty will not fix this symptom)
So yeah...... open the gates. Let anyone in. Apparently our country has much more to give away. It's so obvious. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 533
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:12 pm: | |
Zrx_Doug, I actually do know quite a few undocumented folks. Some are my friends, and I have assisted a few.
All of their children are back in their home country, so you aren't paying a penny. They work in the U.S. in manual labor jobs, and send much of their earnings home to feed their wife and children.
They aren't drawing any form of public assistance, because they don't officially exist.
Yes, they are paying taxes, but only sales taxes, gas taxes and the such. Obviously they are not paying income taxes because they don't exist (officially).
You are not footing any bill for them. They don't go to the hospital; they don't use any services that would require any sort of identification.
If anything, they're subsidizing your existence. They're part of the reason that consumer goods and services have had low inflationary increases over the past few decades.
If a pizza currently costs $15, or a roof repair currently costs $1,000, I would imagine it would cost a lot more for such services if we restricted the labor supply to only native-born underclass (and we ould likely also get much crapper service and workmanship with our native-born, often lazy or trashy underclass). |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 920
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:19 pm: | |
Nobody is making this about race but you, Cloud. And yeah, I am somewhat offended that you would infer that I am racially motivated with your snide remarks.
How many friends do you have who are no longer in the construction business because it's cheaper to hire an illegal for less pay and zero health bennies?
Illegal "A" comes to town, swipes citezen "B's" job, and now instead of one worker pulling his own weight we have two people who are on the public tit for health care because they have no insurance, one of whom is probably drawing unemployment as well.
You're right, it's all about the skin color.. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2541
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:22 pm: | |
That's right Crawford, keep you foot on their necks, make sure that workman's comp insurance is never paid. Keep those brown-skins under your heel and create a new slave state of underground illegals.
Very open minded. So very inclusive. So very privileged. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 534
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:23 pm: | |
Actually, Tkshreve, I can answer your question from a personal perspective. I am engaged to a Mexican national, and we are currently going through the immigration process.
Here's what people don't get: in 90% of cases, there is no "choice" between documented and undocumented. Some poor rural laborer does not decide to do things illegally. Our (f---ed up) immigration system makes this decision for them.
Here's what you need to immigrate legally from Mexico:
1. Evidence of supporting income of sponsor in U.S. (translation- proof that you have someone in the U.S. who is at least middle class and can support you).
2. About $2,000 U.S. to cover expenses for the various applications. If you use a lawyer, it will obviously be many times more. Oh, and you will need to travel to Mexico City multiple times to meet with U.S. consular or embassay officials.
3. Evidence of work history in Mexico (in a country where 60% of employment is off the books).
4. Evidence of family assets in Mexico (in a country where 80% of families have no assets).
The four requirements above are all basically impossible for the majority of Mexicans. Therefore, it is impossible for them to immigrate legally. They don't have a middle-class American sponsor, they don't have documented assets or work history, and they don't have cash to throw around for applications, lawyers, and trips to Mexico City.
Even if you are marrying someone legally, it will take at least a year. If you are just applying as part of the immigrant lottery, it could take 10 years or more, which is pretty silly when you have babies you need to feed.
My fiancee is middle class, speaks perfect English and meets all the requirements, so we are fine, but for most folks, they have no other options. |
Cloud_wall
Member
Username: Cloud_wall
Post Number: 58
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:24 pm: | |
Doug, in West Michigan, there is a REAL influx of latin Americans, many of whom are probably here illegally. It's an old cliche, but they really do perform work that others don't. Yes, they are exploited and work for less than minimum wage. And when the previous administration dabbled in public displays of enforcement, the asparagus went unharvested.
Also, in Grand Rapids, the previously abandoned South Division area saw an explosion of new, thriving businesses thanks to the immigrant community.
I like this "one out, one in" outlook on how illegal immigration affects legal immigrants. Do you have any support for the idea that illegal immigrants who live in the shadows and perform jobs we don't like to think about are somehow keeping out legal immigrants on work visas? Are we really making foreign doctors cool their heels on the sidelines because of all the ones that crossed the border at night with the Chamber of Commerce's blessing? It's a nicely contrived bit of sanctimony, but I don't think it has any basis in reality. |
Penelopetheduck
Member
Username: Penelopetheduck
Post Number: 45
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:42 pm: | |
Obviously what Detroit needs is to have a sizable chunk of its population, especially those who are living in its most prosperous and stable neighborhoods, removed. This will truly improve crime, social cohesion and the economy. |
Texorama
Member
Username: Texorama
Post Number: 382
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:43 pm: | |
Yes, look at Canada, which has the highest immigration rate in the world. Immigrants rebuild cities, provide entrepreneurial energy to a society, and help generate prosperity for all. Not to mention that they pay Social Security taxes that we're going to sorely need.
This said, the names Conyers and Kilpatrick do not help the cause. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 921
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 1:46 pm: | |
Since when is roofing a "job we don't like to think about?"
Ask the guys who used to work for my sister (back before her roofing company went tits-up..hard to compete with folks who'll bend the rules if you won't.) if their ex-job was "undesirable."
Illegals are identical to the "outsourcing" that Michigan folks are all to happy to cry about..the only diff is that the guy who undercuts you and steals your job does it right here in your own country. |