  Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2271 Registered: 12-2005 |
Reading that French discussion board thread, I see that Ar Brav on 09-12-2006 at 11:17:45 a.m. suggested that Mary Murphy "connect with an American guest of the forum....". Mary Murphy responded that she tried but could not send a private message to him. It took 27 months, but Mary Murphy has finally connected with that American guest! | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 167 Registered: 01-2009 |
OK. The below is from the French website. Supposedly William is 3 years older that her grandmother. What year was her grandmother born? quote: | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2272 Registered: 12-2005 |
Thanks to Sue DeHaan, we have the following citation from the book Michigan in the World War: quote: This is the same Pvt. 1cl. William P. Murphy who was listed in the book, "The 32nd Division in the World War, 1917-1919" that Stosh had found. Kearsarge, Michigan is a tiny town located next to Calumet in the Upper Peninsula on the Keweenaw Peninsula. Juvigny, France is located east-northeast of Paris, about 10 miles (15 km) from the border with Belgium. From Ancestry.com, there is a draft record of a William Patrick Murphy, born March 18, 1899, Occupation: Shipping Clerk at the C&H Mine, Calumet, Mich., Nearest Relative: Mr & Mrs Peter Murphy, 338 Caledonia, Michigan. The 1910 US Census records indicate that his parents Peter and Hanora (Hannah) were both born in Ireland. The 1920 Census shows him living at home and not working. Even though the middle initial matches, I don't think this is our Private First Class. There also appears another draft record for a William Murphy in Houghton County, Michigan: Resides at: 96 County Rd., Kearsarge, Michigan; Born: Nov. 22, 1893 in Tamarack, Michigan; Occupation: Underground Laborer, Osceola Mine, North Kearsarge, Michigan. The 1910 US Census lists him living in Calumet with his parents, Patrick D. and Ellen Murphy, who were both born in Ireland. The 1920 Census shows him living at home and working at the mine as a "pump-man". I cannot find either of these two William Murphys in the 1930 US Census to verify whether they served in the World War, but if I was a betting man, I would put down some serious money that the one born in 1893 is our Private First Class from the 107th Engineers of the 32nd Division. However, his work at the mine does not square with Mary Murphy's description of his occupation, which leads me to doubt whether he could be Rene's father. If there is any possibility he could be the one Mary is looking for, additional information can be found as follows: Private First Class William P. Murphy's U.S. Army Serial Number is given as 257158, which could be used to request his Army Personnel Records. The following person is probably a next of kin of William Murphy (b. 1893) since the records show he also at one time lived at the same 96 County Rd. address. From ZabaSearch.com: James P Murphy 59034 Hwy US41 Kearsarge, MI 49942 Phone Number: 906-337-1325 | ||
Dtctygrl Member Username: Dtctygrl Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2007 |
Mikeg - great research. I had to give it up last night! - but here I am early this morning.  So the William P Murphy listed with the 107th Engineers lived no where near Detroit prior to his active service. Thanks Sue for the information from the book that we needed. Search will have to wait until after work this afternoon. Maybe someone will find something that we are missing. | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 168 Registered: 01-2009 |
Perhaps Mary could fill us in on the birth year of her grandmother? Add 3 years and you would have Williams birth year, if what she wrote on the French forum is accurate. Using that data, weeding out the Williams would be a little easier, don't you think? | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 171 Registered: 01-2009 |
bump | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2251 Registered: 09-2003 |
One of the best detective threads ever - a Hall of Fame inductee. Great research all and thanks. Kind, helpful, informative and entertaining -- the internet at its best. Good luck Mary and welcome to the forum. | ||
Mary_murphy Member Username: Mary_murphy Post Number: 10 Registered: 03-2009 |
Thank you very much to: Detroit_stylin,Zulu_warrior,St osh,Dtctygrl,Gnome,Mikeg. It were great research that you make (as Lowel writes).It is very impressive. Since 2006, I have researched information on the WEB. I have begun on French WEB that Stosh found it (Wow!),but without results. Tomorrow, I am going to see my American teacher to help me to translate your research. Because I am not sure to all understand. Thank you again for your help. At soon. Mary | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 172 Registered: 01-2009 |
Mary what year was your grandmother born? | ||
Mary_murphy Member Username: Mary_murphy Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2009 |
Hello Stosh, It is very strange, because, five minutes ago I searched the papers of my grandmother(family record book) in my study. It is very moving for me. I have found her birthday. She was born the 25 October 1876. Her first name: Germaine catherine and last name: CHAPUS Thank you again. Cordially. Mary | ||
Mary_murphy Member Username: Mary_murphy Post Number: 12 Registered: 03-2009 |
Hello Stosh, Sorry. I have made a mistake (big error). My grandmother was born the 15 May 1897 and not in 1876. She was 21 years when she had met William. Thank you very much. Mary | ||
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie Post Number: 474 Registered: 09-2006 |
So we're not looking for someone born in the 1890's but in the late 1870's or early 1880's? | ||
Dtctygrl Member Username: Dtctygrl Post Number: 94 Registered: 03-2007 |
Mary posted a correction. Germaine Catherine Chapus' was born May 15, 1897 and met William when she was 21. So William would have been born 1894 give or take. | ||
Mary_murphy Member Username: Mary_murphy Post Number: 14 Registered: 03-2009 |
Thank Dtctygrl for your last post. Cordially. Mary | ||
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie Post Number: 475 Registered: 09-2006 |
Dtctygrl: Sorry but when I hit post, Mary's post wasn't there. Yours was but you deleted it. | ||
Dtctygrl Member Username: Dtctygrl Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2007 |
Mashugruskie: I guess I was posting while Mary was posting her correction. So this one needs a better look: Quote: Private First Class William P. Murphy's U.S. Army Serial Number is given as 257158, which could be used to request his Army Personnel Records. The following person is probably a next of kin of William Murphy (b. 1893) since the records show he also at one time lived at the same 96 County Rd. address. From ZabaSearch.com: James P Murphy 59034 Hwy US41 Kearsarge, MI 49942 Phone Number: 906-337-1325 | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 173 Registered: 01-2009 |
I found a Wm J. Murphy (spelled that way) in the 1920 Census in Detroit. Age 27 Married to a Jonetta or Laretta (suggested by the 1930 census)? as of 1920 (Message edited by stosh on March 18, 2009) | ||
Dtctygrl Member Username: Dtctygrl Post Number: 96 Registered: 03-2007 |
Stosh: Saw that one, but the box was marked "no" regarding veteran. He also married at the age of 22. It seems Mary's William is rather elusive. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2514 Registered: 08-2007 |
Dtctygrl, I've found a ton of incorrect info on census documents. Many times the census taker gathered their info from neighbors who just guessed at info. It depended greatly on how many times the Census Taker had to visit the home. If they didn't find anyone at home, they were suppose to come back, but if they had to cover a large area or were just lazy, they'd ask anyone nearby. I've found bad dates of birth, marraige status, veteran status and places of birth. I agree, census data is a primary source, but sometimes even primary stuff has to be triangulated to find the truth. Also, the stuff you and everyone else is doing is fantastic. | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 174 Registered: 01-2009 |
I agree with Gnome. Just because someone said no to an answer, depending on who was the informing party, made all the difference in the world, even on primary source documents like death certificates. Marriage at the age of 22 from the 1930 census? Could also have been fudged as well. 2 William J Murphy's are on Ancestry for Wayne county. (alas no Ancestry subscription) Here's another possibility to consider. Knowing that the Influenza Epidemic happened within the time frame of the return of soldiers from Europe, I'd think that his death could also be a possibility in 1919. Mary: Did your grandfather have any sons? (Message edited by stosh on March 19, 2009) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2277 Registered: 12-2005 |
The William Murphy who was born on 22 Nov 1893 in Tamarack, Michigan would have been 24 years old when he arrived in France. He would have been 3 years older than Germaine Catherine Chapus during the period of 15 May through 22 Nov 1918. The age difference and his Irish-born parents matches Mary's information, but his residence and occupation do not. However, if you hailed from Kearsarge in the Keweenaw Peninsula and you were in France trying to tell a native where in Michigan you came from, would you tell them Calumet or Detroit? Would you tell them that as a civilian you were a miner who maintained pumps or would you say that you were a mechanic - and would the listener then put "Detroit" and "mechanic" together and come up with "auto mechanic"? I think it is entirely possible that Pvt. First Class William Murphy of the 32nd Division could be Mary's grandfather, but additional information must be obtained to prove or disprove this hypothesis. If a request for his military personnel records is submitted using Standard Form 180, they might tell us whether or not his unit was quartered near Limoges after his his tour at the front lines near Juvigny. If it was, then the probability of him being Mary's grandfather becomes very high. However, further confirmation would require making contact with William's living relatives. If they know of his unsuccessful attempts to contact the mother of his son in France, that would be the end of the search. If not, it would take a DNA test to positively confirm a relationship and it would require two qualified males on both sides of the Atlantic who would be willing to be tested. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 1276 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree with Mikeg's assesment. I beleive we are zeroing in on the right person, but more infromation is needed to confirm our hunches at this point. Who can ask for those records? How long will it take for that process to occur? I beleive that they are not probably digital, but if so, could they be released on the internet, if released to an individual? These questions will be major determinants to the next action steps... | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2278 Registered: 12-2005 |
Only the veteran or their next of kin may request military records via the on-line approach and that process requires more information in the request than we have about Pvt. 1c William Murphy of the 32nd Division. All others must submit their request using SF-180 (or a written letter) and mail it to the appropriate address shown on the SF-180 form. A soldier's "Assignments and Geographical Locations", if available, is one of the types of military record information that can be released to the public without the permission of the veteran or next of kin. I think that Mary_murphy should decide and let us know if she thinks the military records of this individual are worth pursuing. If so, she could ask for a volunteer to fill out and submit the SF-180 on her behalf. Many of the US Army original personnel records from this era were destroyed in the fire of 1973 and it could take 5 weeks to six months for them to reconstruct his record using other sources before making a reply. While Pvt. 1c William Murphy of the 32nd Division sort of fits the known information about Mary_murphy's grandfather, the odds are still high that another soldier named William Murphy from Michigan could have been stationed near Limoges, France in 1918. After all, I found the World War One draft registration cards of two men named "William Murphy" who lived within five miles of each other in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. (Message edited by Mikeg on March 19, 2009) | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 177 Registered: 01-2009 |
I can't help but comment on the relationship of someone from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to the Detroit area. Really, guys. It's a stretch to even consider this guy as a serious candidate. The relationship to Detroit may as well be the relationship between Tamarack and Grand Rapids. He'd probably sooner identify with Minneapolis (224 miles) Green Bay (178 miles) or Duluth (168 miles) versus Detroit (560 miles) (Message edited by stosh on March 19, 2009) | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 731 Registered: 08-2007 |
I am not sure the link between Detroit and the Upper Peninsula is out of the question. My great-great grandfather came to Detroit in 1857 with his brother. Yet his brother's 1861 civil war military enlistment records list a town in the Upper Peninsula as his hometown. I was told by a historian that the mines in the Upper Peninsula drew a lot of people from Detroit eager for high-paying jobs. Granted, my example is 50-60 years earlier than this, but it is conceivable in my mind that the mines continued to employ Detroiters through the early part of the 20th century, once that recruiting link was established. It is possible, I suppose, that someone might have been "from" Detroit but "working" in the mines up North. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2279 Registered: 12-2005 |
My great-great grandfather's brother moved himself, his wife and infant daughter from Warren Twp. to Hancock to work in the copper mines for a short period during 1865-1866. Their second child was born in Hancock, Houghton County, Michigan on 13 March 1866. Their third child was born in Warren Twp. on 06 Oct 1867. I don't know for sure if the migration between SE and MW Michigan remained as fluid into the 1900's, but I suspect it did, particularly as copper prices fluctuated. I have a neighbor who taught school in Macomb County and now that she is retired, she spends many weeks of the year back in the Keweenaw country. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2280 Registered: 12-2005 |
Reading the account of the 32nd Division's movements following the Armistice, reveals that they moved eastward beginning on 17 Nov 1918 and arrived at the Rhine River near Koblenz, Germany on 11 Dec 1918. This corresponds to the approximate time of Mary_murphy's father's conception. If Pvt. 1c William Murphy was still attached to his unit at that time, he would have been even farther away from Limoges, France. However, the possibility exists that any time after his early September bravery in action near Juvigny, France, he could have received orders detaching him from his unit for any variety of reasons. His military records might tell us if that happened. I'm the first to admit that trying to find the right William Murphy ninety years later is like looking for the proverbial "needle in a haystack". | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 1277 Registered: 10-2003 |
I would take issue with Stosh's argument. In the 1920's there was no anti-Detroit bias. People in michigan ingeneral wanted to have, or had , some connection through Detroit. All of the other "large" Michigan cities- Lansing, Grand Rapids, and Saginaw were just beginning to grow. Lansing had just become the capital in 1847, so it is very conceiveable that Detroit would have been the only place in Michigan the French would identify with, especially it having been a major French settlement. Montreal, Chicago, and maybe Cleavland would have been the other points of reference for an international traveler | ||
Dtctygrl Member Username: Dtctygrl Post Number: 97 Registered: 03-2007 |
Let me start by saying you guys are AWESOME! What a team that has come together to help Mary find her grandfather. I am learning valuable tools to help me with further research on my own family here as well. I will be able to spend more time tonight and tomorrow to research William. I think we have to take all these angles and assume that any of them could be correct. Of course that leads us back to square one perhaps, but I think this team will solve the mystery. | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 178 Registered: 01-2009 |
Ok, I'd admit that the cache of Detroit might have been a factor in his story to the girl. However, would not the letters from William be postmarked from where he was living? Wouldn't the story have gone a little differently? Limoges is a center of activity in WWI. In the medical field, there were quite a few hospitals in the area: http://history.amedd.army.mil/ booksdocs/wwi/adminamerexp/cha pter16.html |
