  321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 653 Registered: 02-2006 |
It all comes down to people who like vacant buildings vs. people who like vacant lots. Those are your two choices because once it becomes vacant not much good is going to happen to it. The Book Cadillac and Fort Shelby being the exception not the rule. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 629 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Recent history in Downtown Detroit has proven that speculative demolition is a total failure, and does not attract development. Over the last dozen years in Downtown Detroit, I can't think of one example where speculative demolition has led to new development on that site. The only instances of building demolition leading to new development are situations where a project was planned for a site, while the old buildings were still standing, and they were demolished as part of the pre-construction process. There are many recent examples of vacant (and even occupied) buildings demolished to clear the site for immediate construction. Comerica Park, Ford Field, MGM Grand, 1001 parking garage, Book Cadillac parking garage, Greektown Casino, and the Rosa Parks Bus Terminal are all examples of new construction that required demolition of old buildings to clear the site for redevelopment. The presence of old buildings on these sites did not prevent new construction from happening. If we look at the speculative demolitions in Downtown Detroit over the last 10-12 years, we see little or no progress on these sites. The Hudson's site has not been redeveloped, the Statler site has not been redeveloped, the Madison-Lenox site has not been redeveloped, the countless sites of demolished buildings behind the Fox Theater have not been redeveloped. Compare the absolute failure of demolition without a plan to the success of redeveloping old vacant buildings in Downtown Detroit, and the smart move is obvious. Take a look at the row of renovated buildings that make up Merchant's Row, the three buildings that were renovated for the Lofts @ Woodward Center, the Eureka Building, the Lafer Building, the Kales, the Cliff Bell's building, the Iodent, the Book Cadillac, and the Fort Shelby... Ten years ago, they were all run down vacant buildings, just like the Madison Lenox, Hudson's, Chin Tiki, and Statler. The ideology of "tear it down and they will come" has been proven false in Downtown Detroit, and the evidence is overwhelming. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 627 Registered: 04-2004 |
-"Great idea, genius. Then they could have a few thousand people standing in the middle of a five lane road. Maybe you've never been there on a Saturday in the summer, but there are a lot of people going to the games. They already close down the roads that border the stadium. Do you want to be the one who has to deal with the cluster-fuck it would be to have to close down Woodward?"- You're previous angle of argument is exactly what suburban mall developers like to use. "I like seeing my whole building from the street, so I set it further back from the road." Like suburban malls, Comerica Park has parking out front too. Crowded streets are expected in any city on gamedays, yet most cities are able to function just fine. I think a city with a dead downtown core could manage the congestion even better, don't you think? Consider a city close to home like Ann Arbor where one of their busiest streets, Main Street sits in gridlock before and after football games while crowds weave between cars. It's a part of city life that residents have gotten used to. Best of all, it encourages motorists to delay leaving or arrive earlier and patronize downtown businesses. I doubt the impact of having built Tiger stadium closer to Woodward would have increased congestion substantially if you provided wider sidewalks. This type of discussion reminds me of a concern voiced at a Flint planning comission meeting where one of the members asked if outdoor seating would block pedestrian traffic or cause people to walk in the street. Another member replied, "The day I see large crowd congestion blocking Flint's sidewalks and streets will be a dream come true." (Message edited by wolverine on March 22, 2009) | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2525 Registered: 08-2007 |
I believe the City owns those lots on Woodward and lease them to Olympia for parking. The City is holding ownership under the delusion that new construction will fill in that area. Not that it couldn't happen... If I Recall correctly, part of the reason the CoPa was put where it was put was because of a State Law on liquor consumption and churches. As in, you can't sell on-premise liquor within X feet of a church and, as we know, there are two churches that would have fit that bill. The Ilitch development question I'd like someone (ie Gistok) is the Madison-Lenox lot. Unless things have changes, I thought part of the deal to tear down the M-L was that Ilitch had to start building on that property by 2008 or 9. Do I remember this correctly? Also, the Olympia lease was up in July of 2008, they extended it a year ... what's up? | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2006 |
Gnome, are you saying the 'devil is in the details'?  Posters are not privy to the multiple of restrictions, considerations, etc. which go into development decisions. Heck, even MLB has to sign off on a stadium and there are REAL restrictions about the positioning of the stadium vis-a-vis the rising and setting sun. Or in this case (parking lots), apparently posters are blaming Ilitch for something not of his doing. | ||
Heedus Member Username: Heedus Post Number: 26 Registered: 06-2008 |
If the new arena isn't going to be built next to Motor City Casino, what IS going on there? I drive by there every day and wonder. Obviously, nothing has been announced yet, but is anyone out there privy to any inside info on this? Also, I heard the same rumor last year about Quicken developing the old Statler site and sharing a parking garage w/a new Joe Louis arena in Foxtown. At that time, it seemed like that was the most sensible thing for Ilitch and Gilbert to do. But that was last year, and much has changed, including Gilbert asking for development rights at Cadillac Square (former site of the planned Cadillac Center development). Maybe because Gilbert changed his tune, so did Ilitch? | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 628 Registered: 04-2004 |
"As in, you can't sell on-premise liquor within X feet of a church and, as we know, there are two churches that would have fit that bill." Does Chelios sell/serve liquor? Establishments across the street? Maybe that was a reason, but it also could have been an excuse. Even if you built out Comerica closer to Woodward with larger entry plazas and retail, liquor sales and consumption could have still been buried deeper within the building, meeting the required distance. Still, I believe there are establishments within at least 70 feet of the churches that serve alcohol, rendering the premise for Comerica's placement pointless. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but it is an odd excuse for locating the stadium so far back. I really think the parking function had more to do with it. | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 94 Registered: 02-2007 |
The rink should be built there, that's a plot of land that every arena builder dreams about--near highways, plenty of parking, no restrictions on trying to fit a circle into a square and a very motivated owner---and of course I hate rumors but-- advanced plumbing just got a huge offer for that little plot that they sit on, someone also bought the gas station across from the casino--is the casino expanding? don't know, but they don't need anymore parking so...... | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1277 Registered: 07-2007 |
"The ideology of "tear it down and they will come" has been proven false in Downtown Detroit, and the evidence is overwhelming." Thank you! This is the best summary of the facts that stand in opposition to the Ilitch apologists who claim that all of this demolition is for the betterment of the city. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 2159 Registered: 03-2006 |
Detroit is going to look like Hill Valley in Back to the Future 2 after Marty messes up the space-time continuum. Everything leads into a big casino owned by Biff (Ilitch). | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4416 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm amused by Urbanfisherman with his association between placing CoPa one block off Woodward and traffic amelioration. What's the difference? 40,000 people still collapse on the same general region and cause dreaded "congestion." What does creating a parking lot buffer do? Honestly...I've never actually been in a traffic jam on Woodward. After we won the pennant in '06 it was kind of slow because of the revelry...but it still kept moving! At any rate, I don't think placing the stadium along Woodward would have looked so hot. I do think that having surface parking lots fronting the city's most famous road downtown is a bit embarrasing, though. Those lots aren't going anywhere as long as the pizza-sports-parking magnate owns them, though. Efficient use of a valuable plot would be so illogical! | ||
Urbanfisherman Member Username: Urbanfisherman Post Number: 133 Registered: 07-2008 |
Perhaps you've not seen thousands and thousands of people line up into Witherell Street during the summer? That is the main entrance to the stadium and where most of the box offices are. That would be a nightmare on Woodward. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1278 Registered: 07-2007 |
"That would be a nightmare on Woodward." Ok, set the stadium back 50 feet and make a promenade in front so that not one person stands anywhere near the Woodward Avenue curb. I mean we wouldn't want one car delayed because a pedestrian might even wander near the street. The lengths to which people will go to defend the use of suburban planning practices in urban areas amazes me. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4598 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: You see the big problem with Tiger Stadium was that pedestrians would always get run down by cars travelling on Michigan Avenue. Thank goodness Mike Ilitch was smart enough to disrupt the streetwall on Woodward Avenue! | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3878 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: It doesn't already? lol. With any luck maybe we're living the alternate universe version and any moment now Marty McFly is gonna go back and make the world right again. | ||
Urbanfisherman Member Username: Urbanfisherman Post Number: 134 Registered: 07-2008 |
Nice try Dan. Too bad that stadium was build about 100 years ago when they probably didn't have to worry as much about modern game day traffic. You wouldn't know anything about that though, would you Dan? Not living here and all... Go ahead and blame it all on Mike I. And sorry if they didn't consult you first Novine, but I don't trust game day idiots in traffic. Neither does the CoD. Just look at how many policemen pull crossing guard duty as it is. I seem to remember people on this board always getting pissy about that. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4600 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: What does the date of construction have to do with anything? What does "modern game day traffic" mean? I'm not so great at math, but 40,000 people is still 40,000 people, right? Of all the games I attended at the Corner, I never noticed any deficiency with the ballpark being built to the street. Let's call a spade a spade, shall we? Comerica Park is just a partial realization of Mike Ilitch's dream to impose a suburban "party zone"--surrounded by acres and acres of parking--on what was once viable urban fabric. You're supposed to drive in from the suburbs on the freeway, pay Mike Ilitch 20 bucks to park on one of "his" lots, drop a bundle of cash at "his" facilities, then hop back in the car and get on the freeway to go back home to the suburbs. Progressive Field in Cleveland is wedged between eight-lane Ontario Road, six-lane Carnegie Avenue, and six-lane East 9th Street. Somehow, they manage to not get people killed. Maybe it's because that field was built in 1994, before "modern game day crowds" started to arrive. http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q= Progressive+Field,+Cleveland,+ OH&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn =33.572881,78.75&ie=UTF8&ll=41 .495544,-81.684648&spn=0.00387 3,0.009613&t=h&z=17 I love it when people use the word "probably" in their arguments. It's a dead give-away that they're just making shit up. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3712 Registered: 07-2004 |
And 100 years ago, two streetcar lines converged at "The Corner," running along Trumbull and Michigan, leading downtown across the west side. | ||
Heedus Member Username: Heedus Post Number: 28 Registered: 06-2008 |
Danindc: Good reference to the Jake (now Progressive Field). Plus, the Jake was sold out for 455 straight games from 1995 to 2001. A lot of the crowd, though, does enter the stadium from Eagle Ave. by Quicken Arena. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 962 Registered: 11-2007 |
There's a lot not to like about Ilitch lately but Comerica is the least of it. He paid a larger percentage of construction than most new ballparks' owners recently. Camden Yards is surrounded by parking lots yet I don't hear a lot of beefing about it. Gameday has more people walking around downtown in Tigers' gear than the rest of the pedestrian population put together. Yeah, north of Adams to Brush Park was a beautiful urban fabric before he tore down all those bombed out buildings. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3714 Registered: 07-2004 |
"Yeah, north of Adams to Brush Park was a beautiful urban fabric before he tore down all those bombed out buildings." Sigh. He didn't just tear down vacant buildings ("bombed-out"? We were blitzed and I didn't hear about it? C'mon!) He rubbed out the blocks, the streets, the very -- yes -- fabric of what makes an urban neighborhood. Oversimplifying things doesn't help shed much light on the matter. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4417 Registered: 02-2005 |
Well said, Dan. You'd be surprised how many people can fit on a sidewalk! Check out midtown Manhattan. Surely it does get annoying when you're in a hurry... but it illustrates the point, and, for sure, all these people don't interrupt the "traffic flow" because those people are staying away from the street so as to avoid getting run over by a cabbie. This is really not an important issue-- Comerica Pk. is where it is and that's not going to change-- but this all illustrates the pervasive sururban mindset that afflicts how the DOWNTOWN of a major city is being planned. [but, for the record, if CoPa fronted Woodward, then you could just have the box offices on the side-street and block it off during games as we do anyway]. It's the same mindset that believes that landscaped surface parking lots are more beautiful than a lovely three story brick building (R.I.P 2030 Grand River, e.g.). Because, you see, if we have that nice parking lot there there will be less congestion, and it will just, like, be safer, and people will feel comfortable coming downtown. Do people really need their local downtown to look like Big Beaver Road in order to feel comfortable? | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1280 Registered: 07-2007 |
"And sorry if they didn't consult you first Novine, but I don't trust game day idiots in traffic. Neither does the CoD. Just look at how many policemen pull crossing guard duty as it is. I seem to remember people on this board always getting pissy about that." Never have been to a Tiger game have you? Unless you park in an Ilitch controlled lot, you have to cross streets, some of them busy, to get to the park. Why you're so obsessed with keeping people off Woodward but don't see any problem with people fighting Ilitch's attempt to get cars as close the stadium as possible at every other turn is a mystery to me. | ||
Detr0itkid Member Username: Detr0itkid Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2009 |
I know a few folks have brought it up... but what is going to end up at the corner of MKL & Lodge? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3715 Registered: 07-2004 |
"what is going to end up at the corner of MKL & Lodge?" Too far south in the Cass Corridor for any money to bubble up to the surface is my guess. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1368 Registered: 01-2005 |
Dan says: "Comerica Park is just a partial realization of Mike Ilitch's dream to impose a suburban 'party zone' -- surrounded by acres and acres of parking -- on what was once a viable urban fabric. You're supposed to drive in from the suburbs on the freeway, pay Ilitch 20 bucks to park on one of 'his' lots, drop a bundle of cash at 'his' facilities, then hop back in the car and get on the freeway to go back to the suburbs." Geez, that sounds like a helluva business plan to me. Do you konow what a "business plan" is, Dan? In this case it results in the employment of 100's of Detroiters, the payment of countless amounts of all kinds of taxes, and the revitalization of an area that would not have otherwise been upgraded to a regional destination. Of course he could have built it in the suburbs, which I'm sure you'd just have loved, because that's what an ivory tower guy like you would have done rather than desecrate a "viable urban fabric." (What a bullshit concept those words convey.) It's amazing how so many folks on here who have never met a payroll can tell other folks who have made substantial contributions to Detroit and know what they're doing, how they have done everything wrong. I doubt that Ilitch reads or cares a whit about this forum, but if he does he probably laughs his ass off all the way to the bank. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3716 Registered: 07-2004 |
You can try to confuse the issues all you like. It's still piss-poor urban design. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1337 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:Well, if the objective of our economic development policy here in the city is for Ilitch to laugh his ass off all the way to the bank, I'd say we're succeeding admirably. | ||
Urbanfisherman Member Username: Urbanfisherman Post Number: 135 Registered: 07-2008 |
quote: You'd know about making shit up, wouldn't you Dan? Oh well, fuck it. Obviously the urban design professionals on this board are all making significant impacts to Detroit, and their opinions are above reproach. I however, agree with 3rdworldcity's post above. (Message edited by urbanfisherman on March 23, 2009) | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1369 Registered: 01-2005 |
Detroitnerd: Just what are the issues and how did I "confuse" them? I'd say that ivory tower, intellectual "urban planners" who live in an elitist, impractical dreamworld are the ones that are confused. Now, I don't know if you, Detroitnerd, are an urban planner or a wannabe and my comments are certainly not personal, and you're entitled to your opinion that Ilitch's vision is piss-poor, but you imply that there's a right way and a wrong way to plan something and it's your way or the highway. Do you think that Ilitch just sat down and sketched the design without some pretty high priced and skilled advice? Bearinthebox: Then that's the only aspect of Detroit's development policy that is. |
