  Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer Post Number: 580 Registered: 08-2004 |
Where will Wings roost? Joe Louis Arena lease nears end Cobo expansion complicates plans for Joe Louis By Bill Shea http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a rticle/20090322/SUB01/30322996 5/1069 The ongoing saga of whether to renovate the Joe Louis Arena or build a new home elsewhere in the city for the Detroit Red Wings has entered its version of hockey's third period — and the team owner can force overtime by negotiating an extension on a lease with the city. Mike Ilitch, the team's owner since 1982, has until June 30 to tell Detroit if he will modernize the 30-year-old, city-owned arena or construct a new venue that likely would cost $200 million to $300 million. Talks have been ongoing for several years between the Ilitch organization and the quasi-public Detroit Economic Growth Corp. Even with the clock ticking, no offers are on the table, those involved say.... | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4415 Registered: 02-2005 |
He's waiting for the government to bail him out and foot the bill for a new arena; they've already subsidized his historic building to parking lot projects. What a cheap, cheap rich man. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 526 Registered: 10-2006 |
Just as with the proposed Woodward light rail, I am dumbfounded by these arena cost estimates. How can an arena cost $200 million? Will it be made of cardboard and twine? No arena can be built in the U.S. in 2009 for under $400 million. There are even estimates of $1 billion for some proposed arenas in higher-cost cities. | ||
Bshea Member Username: Bshea Post Number: 71 Registered: 01-2009 |
What hockey team is considering a $1 billion arena? The Devils and Penguins arenas are well under $400 million. The Wings paid nothing for Joe Louis, so who know what sort of deal could happen with a new arena, LOL. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 527 Registered: 10-2006 |
Bshea, the proposed new Madison Square Garden has a cost estimate of over $1 billion. The proposed new Nets basketball arena in Brooklyn's Atlantic Yards also has roughly $1 billion price tag, though the developer is currently value-engineering the proposal to the $700-$800 million range. Granted, NYC has MUCH higher land and labor costs, but even cheap cities have much higher estimates. A proposed new basketball arena in Sacramento (on cheap state-owned land, no less) has a price tag of $500 million. Even arenas built in cheap cities completed a few years ago (Kansas City, for example) have a price tag of $300 million. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 978 Registered: 12-2006 |
well for one thing, material costs are WAY down. Steel, concrete, etc has dropped significantly in price in the past year. That goes a long way towards reducing the construction costs. The other thing to keep in mind is the cost of real estate. For starters, a 20-25,000 seat hockey arena won't need the footprint of a 40,000 seat ballpark or a 70,000 seat football stadium. Smaller building = smaller real estate costs. Add to this the fact that land prices are so damn cheap in Detroit compared to other other places (remember this is the city where you can buy a home for a $1). All of that adds up. Also, in regards to $1 billion sports venues, when you consider the size differences and the differences in land prices in Detroit and the Bronx, it is unfair to compare the $1.6 billion price tag of the new Yankee Stadium set to open next month to anything the Red Wings may be considering in Detroit. | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 671 Registered: 07-2008 |
Doesn't Ilitch already own most of the land that would be used for a new arena? This would contribute to the "low" cost, especially with the subsidies that will fall his way. | ||
Bigd Member Username: Bigd Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2007 |
Went to the new Bookies the other day. The bartender gave us a tour of the place and answered a few questions. When asked whether a new hockey arena was going to be built nearby, he answered that it was a "done deal" and pointed to the exact location. He said that's the reason the move was made to the new building on Cass. He left no doubt in my mind. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 528 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jimbo, I'm not comparing stadia to arenas. I am talking about Madison Square Garden (Knicks/Rangers) and Barclays Arena (Nets), both of which would be about the same size as JLA, and both of which have a price tag of $1 billion. And the proposed $500 million Sacramento arena would be for the Sacramento Kings basketball team. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 832 Registered: 05-2007 |
I wish they'd just make the announcement and start building already. The City could use the morale boost! | ||
Bshea Member Username: Bshea Post Number: 72 Registered: 01-2009 |
Crawford, Those are multi-team venues employing mixed-use development, and in NYC, to boot. Apples-oranges. I asked about hockey arenas. And Pittsburgh and New Jersey are the newest and well under $400 million. Columbus back in 2000 was $175 million. I'm not defending the estimates, just reporting them, and they don't seem out of line to me. The New York stuff isn't comparable because they're different projects. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 979 Registered: 12-2006 |
Well for MSG, there are a plethora of issues. 1) You have one of the world's busiest train stations below it in Penn Station so you can't just go ahead and blow it up so you have to do the more expensive method of tearing it down. All of this in intricate work in a dense urban environment like Midtown Manhattan. 2) Disposing of demolished material would be a nightmare. Big diesel dump trucks would have to travel long distances in fuel sucking stop and go traffic in order to get to the locations where they could deposit the waste material from the demolition. 3) Closing roads. 8th avenue between 32nd and 33rd would have to be closed for the better part of a year between the demolition and construction. Not cheap. 4) Higher regional costs in general. EVERYTHING costs more in New York so the simple fact that it is in New York adds a premium. 5) Renting facilities for the teams. During that year of construction, the Rangers and the Knicks will be forced to play their home games at a different facility. The rental fee for that facility would have to be factored into the price as an added expense. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6251 Registered: 08-2004 |
City Arena Opening Capacity Cost (millions) ______________________________ ______________ Los Angeles Staples Center 1999 20,000 $300 Toronto Air Canada Center 1999 21,000 $250 Rangers Madison Square Garden 1968 18,200 $243 Dallas Not determined 2000 21,000 $232 Montréal Centre Molson 1996 21,631 $230 Atlanta Not determined 1999 20,000 $213 Philadelphia First Union Center 1996 18,168 $210 Washington MCI Center 1997 20,000 $200 Ottawa Corel Center 1996 18,500 $200 Florida Nat.Car Rental Center 1998 19,452 $185 Calgary Cnd Airl. Saddledome 1983 20,035 $176 Chicago United Center 1994 21,500 $175 San Jose S.J. Arena 1993 17,483 $163 Tampa Bay Ice Palace 1996 19,756 $160 Vancouver GM Place 1995 19,193 $160 Boston FleetCenter 1995 17,565 $160 Colorado Pepsi Center 1999 19,309 $160 Carolina Entert.& Sports Arena 1999 20,000 $158 Nashville Nashville Arena 1996 20,000 $154 Columbus Nationwide Arena 2000 18,500 $150 St.Louis Kiel Center 1994 19,267 $135 Minnesota Not determined 2000 18,632 $130 Buffalo Marine Midland 1996 18,500 $122 Anaheim Arrowhead Pond 1993 17,174 $120 Phoenix America West Arena 1992 17,500 $101 New Jersey Continental Air Arena 1981 19,040 $85 Edmonton Edmonton Coliseum 1974 17,500 $68 Carolina Greensboro Coliseum 1959 21,000 $57 Detroit Joe Louis Arena 1979 18,785 $34 Islanders Nassau Coliseum 1972 16,297 $31 Dallas Reunion Arena 1980 16,953 $27 Colorado McNichols Arena 1973 16,061 $24 Pittsburgh Civic Arena 1961 17,323 $22 Los Angeles Great Western Forum 1967 16,005 $16 Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens 1931 15,646 $1.5 ______________________ Source: www.hockeyzoneplus.com | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1004 Registered: 11-2003 |
Do you realize how much more expensive real estate is in New York that in Detroit? That alone is enough to make the cost skyrocket. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6252 Registered: 08-2004 |
Agreed Gumby.... and just look at the large price difference among the arenas built in the 1990s? | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 529 Registered: 10-2006 |
No, Bshea, they aren't. Barclays is only for the Nets. Price tag- $1 billion. And your cost estimates are off. The Prudential Center (NJ Devils area) cost $500 million. The team paid $375 million and the city/state paid $125 million. The Pittsburgh arena has a price tag of $325 million, but that's from a few years ago, so figure at least $400 million if you started the process today (and most arenas have serious cost overruns). So I would figure a new JLA would have a price tag of minimum $400 million. I would like to see how this could be funded in this environment, especially absent huge government subsdies (or is this part of the plan?). | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4597 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The proposed Madison Square Garden and proposed Brooklyn arena have incredibly complex foundation issues, which are always expensive to contend with. MSG has Penn Station below (and two very busy subway lines on either side), and the Nets arena sits directly above one of the busiest subway hubs in Brooklyn. You have to be very careful, during design and construction, to not undermine the existing tunnel infrastructure, and the limited areas for placing new foundations necessitate more robust and expensive superstructure. | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 508 Registered: 11-2005 |
Can someone please post the whole article? | ||
Benfield Member Username: Benfield Post Number: 176 Registered: 06-2008 |
Will Ilitch have to go back to that Japanese bank for financing this time? Or are the $5 pizzas off-setting that neon-and-aluminum money pit on Grand River? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1367 Registered: 01-2005 |
Bigd: Was the Bookies bartender's last name "Ilitch?" If not, I wouldn't bet the farm. On the other hand, I have a very good source (admittedly, not Mike or Marian) who claims there will be a hockey "complex" built behind the Fox. There will of course be a Red Wings arena, but there will also be 2 smaller arenas, one in which the Wings will practice, and the other for Wings Junior Hockey. I'll believe it when I'll see it. | ||
Bigd Member Username: Bigd Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2007 |
3rdworld: No, but he seemed to have intimate knowledge behind the reasoning for the move out to Cass. Plus, when two buildings were literally being demolished as he pointed to where the arena would be, it was hard not to believe him. Take it for what it's worth. | ||
Funaho Member Username: Funaho Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2007 |
quote: They're finally building Madison Cube Garden?  | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 1046 Registered: 04-2008 |
What will happen to Joe Louis Arena if and when a new stadium is built? Sit there and rot for 20 or 30 (or 100) years? Say NO to new stadia! Thank God we don't have more major league sports; downtown would be nothing but stadia. | ||
Heedus Member Username: Heedus Post Number: 27 Registered: 06-2008 |
While I agree that there are numerous problems with building a new hockey arena, especially if it is built in Foxtown, I think that the site of the current Joe Louis Arena would be a fairly prime area for redevelopment in comparison to many other sites in and around downtown Detroit. Joe Louis never should have been built on the waterfront in the first place and the architects failure to incorporate the waterfront (like Cobo Hall) only exacerbated the problem. Of course, just because it shouldn't have been built on the riverfront in the first place doesn't mean that we should clear out another large swath of downtown to make room for a new arena. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 529 Registered: 10-2006 |
Funaho: futurama reference? | ||
Bshea Member Username: Bshea Post Number: 74 Registered: 01-2009 |
What will happen to Joe Louis Arena if and when a new stadium is built? Sit there and rot for 20 or 30 (or 100) years? There's a sidebar on JLA's fate in the package I did. | ||
Hauntedbeat Member Username: Hauntedbeat Post Number: 76 Registered: 07-2007 |
Shit, I thought this was about the Justice League of America. | ||
Funaho Member Username: Funaho Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2007 |
quote: Yep! I was worried nobody would get it. | ||
Jackpot Member Username: Jackpot Post Number: 47 Registered: 02-2008 |
former jeffries low-rise site = new wings arena | ||
Detroit_pride Member Username: Detroit_pride Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2008 |
Ford Field $500 Million Comerica Park $300 Million My list of locations in order of preference: 1.) Near Motor City/Masonic Temple 2.) Corner of Gratiot/375 3.) Northwest Corner of Woodward/I75 4.) Pontiac Silverdome Site 5.) Behind Fox Theatre | ||
Macknwarren Member Username: Macknwarren Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2007 |
Another point to consider: Mr and Mrs I are pushing 80. Mr I has had two heart-bypass operations, and at least a couple of hospitalizations in recent years for unknown reasons. At the risk of seeming indelicate, what happens to the empire once he and she are no longer able to oversee it? Chris Ilitch seems to be a capable CEO, but can he carry on in the same way mom and dad have done for so many years? Will the other, what, five kids -- including the shunned Denise -- fight for control? | ||
Daddeeo Member Username: Daddeeo Post Number: 604 Registered: 09-2008 |
They'll be a donneybrook when the old man dies. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 2163 Registered: 03-2006 |
When Joe Louis closes people are going to miss the intimate atmosphere and great seats. Even if you sit in the nose bleeds, you are still very close. Can't say the same of the Palace, thanks to the 1st floor suites. | ||
Emuaaron Member Username: Emuaaron Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2005 |
Chitaku, i agree that we'll miss sitting so close. there's a real give and take - even the worst seats are close, but i'm 6'6" and i have to sit sideways in my seat since you're so close to the row in front of you. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 252 Registered: 11-2004 |
I just can't imagine the ticket prices at a new hockey arena. And I thought they were high now! |
