  Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1672 Registered: 07-2004 |
I've often wondered, what if Downtown Hudson's had built a large parking deck next to it on the Kern Block and offered validated-free parking, would that have slowed the closure of the store? | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 517 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hudson's already had a parking deck next to the library, though I have no idea if it was free with validated purchase. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 371 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have often wondered what if a range of mountains ringed the city of Detroit... | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 2044 Registered: 11-2003 |
What if Victor Gruen's parents had never met? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2267 Registered: 04-2006 |
Gruen is hardly a villan. If you read his book 90 percent of his work was done to improve walkability and connectedness of cities. The real villan is the general sloth of the common american. This sloth was capitalized by other architects working for other developers in competing malls, often sucking the life out of the Gruen inspired designs. Most folks going to Northland were supposed to arrive by bus, but buslines were never extended out to maximize usage for both City and suburban residents. Kalamazoo Mall was a failure, not because Gruen was involved, but rather developers built malls that the public could drive to. Mid-town in Rochester NY was arguably his most successful work and stayed around longer than most malls bucking the trend. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1673 Registered: 07-2004 |
I see that I'll have to go elsewhere to get some serious responses to my question. However, just in case you don't understand the question, I'll attempt to clarify. Downtown Hudson's was competing with the suburban malls and one of the things that shoppers to those malls were extolling was the fact that they could get free parking at the malls but not if they came downtown. The Kern Block had been demolished, leaving a huge piece of land right next to Hudson's. Given the possible loss of shoppers to the downtown Hudson's due to free parking at the suburban malls, I wonder if anyone at Hudson's considered building a large parking structure on the Kern Block and connecting the structure to the store, either by elevated walkways or by placing the structure directly next to store and opening the walls so that people could come directly from the parking structure floors to the floors of the store. (I remember wide hallways near the back of the store that led to the elevators and escalators. These hallways could have led to the parking structure). Given the size of the casino parking structures, it seems feasible that one could have been built for the downtown Hudson's store. I simply have been wondering all these years if anybody here knows if anyone at Hudson's had considered this or if anything was ever mentioned about doing something like this. BTW, I know about the talk back in the 70s about cutting off Woodward to car and bus traffic and building a roof over Woodward and enclosing the area to make a "Downtown Mall." | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 3057 Registered: 01-2004 |
"Downtown Hudson's was competing with the suburban malls" You need to read the history of how that actually happened. Look at what company spearheaded the suburban Northland and Eastland malls and anchored them both for two generations. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2268 Registered: 04-2006 |
Parking is not a magic bullet that will make or break retail in urban areas. It can help, but it is more important that a market exsists. If you go back to the early 1960's, you will see that (as Mauser pointed out) that Hudson's carved out its market share for its own store by developing Northland and Eastland. These were soon followed by Westland and Southland. Soon other malls popped up to compete with those malls (Universal, Tel-Twelve, Livonia Mall). The deathnail for Downtown Shopping However was Fairlane which pretty much killed 3 downtowns when it was constructed. It was the closest regional mall to the west of Downtown, and many stores moved out of East and West Dearborn to never return. (Even though park was never a problem in Dearborn's Downtowns until relatively recently when it has become like a mini-drunken-food-court-for-yu ppies). Fairlane put more square footage on the market than there was in even the giant Hudson's store. What is needed is appropriate market-share. If you notice, not even the venerable Marshall Field's store in Chicago uses the amount of Square feet it used to when it was operating full guns (closed floors, holes cut in the center to create open-spaces). My trip to Philly provided me an experience at the Wannamaker's store that was very disapponting. It was being operated as a Lord and Taylor at the Time and down to one floor. Face it, large department stores are things of the past and not sustainable. Much of this has to do with not only oversaturation, but too many developers trying to cut a larger piece of the pie for themselves. In this type of environment no one wins particularly areas with population loss. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3862 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: I agree with you about markets, but Hudson's continued to exist downtown for thirty years while operating the stores at the malls. I think that the downtown Hudson's death knell was due to the business district being diluted and by suburban business districts. The loss of businesses from the central district to the suburbs seems to be most pronounced in Detroit than any other city in America. Also, of any mall ever built in Metro Detroit, Fairlane is probably the one that made the most sense. Between having a mammoth corporate HQ for a neighbor, and being surrounded by well populated neighborhoods in Dearborn and Detroit, it just made sense. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3863 Registered: 04-2006 |
I don't think that building a parking deck would have done much to save Hudson's. Downtown Hudson's died because of the changing traffic patterns in the city/region. It was largely off the beaten path by the time it closed in the mid 1980s. | ||
Tkierpiec Member Username: Tkierpiec Post Number: 185 Registered: 03-2007 |
detourdetroit wrote: I have often wondered what if a range of mountains ringed the city of Detroit. For some silly reason, this actually made me laugh out loud.  I have nothing worthwhile to contribute, just that. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2269 Registered: 04-2006 |
Actually a ring of mountains is what saves Pittsburgh's downtown retail. They have one of the more healthier downtowns because it is so darned hard to get over the mountains to shop elsewhere and there is little room left for competition. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1196 Registered: 11-2003 |
Even if a huge parking deck had been built on the Kern Block, most suburbanites probably would have kept shopping at their local malls. Why drive all the way downtown for free parking, when there's free parking at the nearby mall? I've always wondered if the management at Hudson's realized that they would be starting the death of the downtown store as soon as Northland opened. Or, did they at first think that the city's population / Downtown's business would not decrease, and that the malls would simply serve the suburban residents? | ||
Daddeeo Member Username: Daddeeo Post Number: 583 Registered: 09-2008 |
Why would you go downtown if you had shops nearby that provided the same stuff? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2270 Registered: 04-2006 |
Burnsie, Metropolitan Detroit was growing like gangbusters up until the time that Northland and Eastland were developed. Detroit's population was growing and peaked in the late 1950's. There were lots of plans to bring apartments into the city and make it more dense, but the opposite happened. If Hudson's did not build these malls, someone else would have and taken their market share. Retail is an ugly business. Almost all of the stores that were around 30 years ago are not around today, or they have different owners and are part of a larger network. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 819 Registered: 05-2007 |
"I've often wondered, what if Downtown Hudson's had built a large parking deck next to it on the Kern Block and offered validated-free parking, would that have slowed the closure of the store?" You're admitting it would close either way, so this is really a mute point. Ironically, what was once Hudsons is now an underground parking structure. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1198 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detroitplanner-- *Metropolitan* Detroit's population was growing, but Detroit's population peaked in about 1953. I wish I could cite a source on that right now, but I've read it in more than one publication. Downtown Detroit started to quickly decline immediately with the opening of Northland in March 1954. Downtown Hudson's peak sales year was 1953 or 1954. By 1959, sales at the Downtown store were down some 20% from their peak. Again, I wish I had that source immediately at hand, but it's from a book published by WSU Press in the '80s. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 765 Registered: 07-2004 |
Downtown stores can suburban stores can work together. The problem with Detroit is the downtown stopped being the "regional" centre for major retail activity, and this was because people were scared to come into the city. No amount of parking would have stopped that. The real losers in this are the residents of Metro Detroit. No matter what, the malls and suburban department stores can never offer the selection of merchandise that was once offered in downtown Detroit. But parking is not the answer. Big department stores still thrive in major cities around the world along with their suburban branch stores. They key is to have a downtown that people want to go down to on a Saturday and feel safe in. We can talk about people shopping close to their homes. But that is not the whole story, because people have no problem driving 40 minutes to go to Sommerset or some other mall across the region. People would still go downtown if they felt safe and it offered a reason to go down like Flagship stores, and stores you can't find anywhere else. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 214 Registered: 11-2006 |
^"Downtown Hudson's peak sales year was 1953 or 1954. By 1959, sales at the Downtown store were down some 20% from their peak." Streetcar service terminated 1956. Coincidence? I think not. | ||
Sludgedaddy Member Username: Sludgedaddy Post Number: 309 Registered: 01-2008 |
If the parking structures , that you envisioned, had happened, Hudson's today would be operating it's various counters behind "ghetto glass " patitions. Most certainly, the condoms and the baby formula would be secured by locked cabinets and most of the merchandise would be of the inferior quality manufactured in foreign Asian sweat-shops that can be found in the Sprawl Malls today. Gosh, how I love the smell of plastic in those World of Shops venues. But, I bet that imagined Hudson's would have one hell of a nail salon and the wig department would be top of the line! | ||
Mtm Member Username: Mtm Post Number: 347 Registered: 06-2006 |
Royce, You had it EXACTLY correct with: "I know about the talk back in the 70s about cutting off Woodward to car and bus traffic and building a roof over Woodward and enclosing the area to make a "Downtown Mall." Coleman actually started building the Mall. They closed Woodward to MOST traffic, put in block pavement, and removed most of the traffic lights. Problem was they didn't stop ALL the traffic. Busses were still allowed to use it and, because traffic lights had been removed, they zoomed up and down willy-nilly almost like they were trying to pick off the pedestrians. Trying to cross Woodward to get to Hudson's was often, literally, taking your life in your hands. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1201 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sludgedaddy-- Hope you're not serious! Although Downtown Hudson's in its later days was more and more a clearance center for stuff that the suburban Hudson's stores didn't sell, Hudson's management never would have let the store turn into what you described. And that's why it closed. | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 311 Registered: 09-2006 |
I was thinking make it into a nice upscale mall like the Watertower in Chicago. I saw NO REASON for them to tear that building down, it-unlike Michigan Central Station-was in GOOD shape! It could've and should've been restored at least to some offices or something. Even though Campus Martius was brought back around the turn of the century, the old J.L. Hudson Bldg. would've all the more complemented it. (Thinkin' out loud like I always do) Sadly, though. My first few times that I did go to Hudson's were in my only times growing up in the early 1980s shortly before they closed it. My memories of it then are not all that vivid, but from the older generations who'd tell me about it, I can't help but not to be in amazement about it. And there are books out about old landmarks that used to be the center of our neighborhoods! | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 518 Registered: 10-2006 |
Waxx, nobody would build a "nice, upscale mall" there because there wasn't (and isn't) a market for such businesses in downtown Detroit. The Rennaisance Center opened with an upscale collection of Somerset Collection-style stores, and they all closed within a few months. Similarly, the New Center used to have a Saks Fifth Avenue department store. It closed in the mid 1970's, I think. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 215 Registered: 11-2006 |
If the upper floors were mixed use and the first floor had something like a Kmart it would probably be doing very well today. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3828 Registered: 09-2007 |
quote: No, they would have shut it down in 2003 before abandoning the region for Chicago. It would have been better off with a Wal-Mart or mega Dollar Store (unfortunately). | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2271 Registered: 04-2006 |
DR there are some very successful multi floor Kmart stores that have operated for years in Cities such as New York and Philly. One of the main attractions for these stores are they are located near transit shops, with the smaller purchases (milk, cleaning supplies) on the same floor as transit making it an easy stop on your way home. http://www.labelscar.com/penns ylvania/gallery-at-market-east | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1203 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detroit Edison, Michigan Bell and Blue Cross signed commitments to lease space in Hudson's in the mid-'80s, but Reagan killed the Urban Development Action Grant program, and that was the end of that. Perhaps Hudson's demolition was inevitable, but it didn't help that Dayton Hudson irresponsibly sold the building in Dec. 1989 to a half-baked "developer" that had no track record. Up to that point the building was still in good, secured condition, but immediately after the sale it was stripped and vandalized. | ||
Detroitbob48209 Member Username: Detroitbob48209 Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2009 |
If my memory serves me correctly, Dayton Hudson had bought most of the block behind the store and north, (bounded by Broadway/Grand River/John R/Farmer) and all of the underused/empty buildings except for the old Paul's Cut Rate Drugs on the west side of Broadway and he refused to sell. Dayton Hudson offered him the old grocery store location in the shoppers park across the street which he declined. The city refused to condemn the building, so the parking deck was never built. The city planning division indicated that Dayton Hudson was planning on relocating the corporate headquarters to Detroit, using the upper floors of the Hudson store (Gr. River/Farmer bldg) for corporate offices and data processing. A bridge would have connected the parking deck to the main building and also provided parking for the retail operation. Shortly after this, Dayton Hudson filed for a going out of business permit for the Hudson store, to which Mayor Young supposedly remarked that they "will never close that store"...I'm sure that this contributed to the demise of the store, but was not totally responsible. Dayton Hudson, now Target remained in MSP and sold the property off. The site is now the location of the people mover and the YMCA. Paul's Cutrate eventually and ironically moved across the street into the same space Dayton Hudson had offered, in the old Shoppers Park, now owned by another concern after the price was upped for the People Mover construction. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1205 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detroitbob48209-- Thanks for that interesting info! It seems odd that the parking ramp couldn't have shared the block with the drug store. So, if Hudson's had built that parking ramp it might have kept the store open for at least a few years more? Do you know if Dayton Hudson ever looked into building a parking ramp on the Kern Block? It'd be hard to believe that wasn't considered. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 767 Registered: 07-2004 |
I doubt parking had anything to do with the Hudson's store closing. There is and was plenty of parking in downtown Detroit. It would be interesting to see if the Hudson's Store still pulled a good profit in the downtown location. It had been noted for example that many stores that closed in downtown Buffalo actually had the highest sales per sq foot in the region even in the gloomy years, yet the companies still closed the downtown stores. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1206 Registered: 11-2003 |
Miketoronto-- Downtown Hudson's was actually still the top unit in sales, or right up there, among all the Hudson's stores. But the sales had dropped so much that they apparently couldn't cover the cost of utilities, maintenance of antiquated physical plant, shoplifting, etc. It's hard to know exactly, since I don't think all the exact numbers were ever released publicly. The book "Hudson's: Hub of America's Heartland" noted that the Downtown store's water bill by circa 1977 exceeded the total water bill of all the branches combined. (Message edited by Burnsie on March 24, 2009) | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2006 |
^"The book "Hudson's: Hub of America's Heartland" noted that the Downtown store's water bill by circa 1977 exceeded the total water bill of all the branches combined." Is this from people coming in to use the bathroom? Water use for boiler heating? A massive elbow pipe connecting right from the water meter to the sewer line? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1210 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bathrooms (not just for the customers and salesclerks, but a headquarters office staff of over 1,000), huge boilers, food service, cleaning, etc. And you can bet that all of the plumbing was old and wasteful. During construction of the parking ramp that occupies the site now, there were major problems when a pipe that carried water directly from the Detroit River (for air conditioning) was accidentally opened up. | ||
Suburbanbliss Member Username: Suburbanbliss Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2009 |
Don't forget the beautiful bronze drinking fountains that graced every floor! | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4607 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: What was the square footage of all the branch stores? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1211 Registered: 11-2003 |
The only branch s.f. info I have is for Genesee Valley (270,000) and Northland (slightly over 500,000). But just those two combined equal some 35% the space of the Downtown store (2.2 million s.f.). All the branches combined easily had more space than Downtown. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 770 Registered: 07-2004 |
And here is the problem with Hudson's. Detroit has what is probably the largest suburban branch stores in the country. 500,000 sq foot branch stores are unheard of in almost any other city. Infact 500,000 is usually the average size of a downtown flagship store in most cities including the US. It is no wonder the downtown store could not be as much of a draw is the suburban stores were so large and had such a large selection of merchandise. I really have to say I have never heard of such large branch stores except in Detroit. Look at most suburban department stores and they are in the 150,000-200,000 range at best. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 669 Registered: 02-2004 |
Mike, We likes 'em big | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4584 Registered: 02-2004 |
Royce quotes "I've often wondered, what if Downtown Hudson's had built a large parking deck next to it on the Kern Block and offered validated-free parking, would that have slowed the closure of the store?" NO! The white flight, economic flight, new and better department stores in various shopping malls, rising violent crime rates and low customer confidence cause the The J.L. Hudson flagship store in Downtown Detroit to close. When the flagship store closed, other businesses in Woodward Corridor close as well. Plus the parking structure in Woodward next to the Hudson's would have an ugly skyline effect in the business district. Therefore an underground parking garage would a best ideal so that a new "PREMIER DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITY" would happen. | ||
Nickstone Member Username: Nickstone Post Number: 84 Registered: 02-2006 |
amen, Danny... my travels to other cities confirm your ideas... what a premier opportunity the UA is... right. |
