Discuss Detroit » DISCUSS DETROIT! » Pontiac Vibe vs Toyota Matrix. « Previous Next »
Archive through March 03, 2009Gencinjay30 03-03-09  11:04 am
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1kielsondrive
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Username: 1kielsondrive

Post Number: 962
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IF I BUY, I'll consider everything presented here. You guys have given me exactly the kinds of feedback I was hoping for - pro and con. Prior to this year, the Pontiac Vibe was one of the few, if not the only auto, that was higher rated by CR than it's twin from Japan. This year they're rated even. Thanks for the reminder of CarFax. I'd checked other sites but had forgotten that one.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 2014
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buy a Ford Focus.

Profits here, engineering here, built here.

SYNC, heated seats, ambient lighting, good quality, feels solid on the road vs the Vibe that feels like the oddly placed console is going to vibrate right off.
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 420
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Check out the saturn astra. much better styling and handling imo.



I'm a huge Saturn fan (I own a Vue and an Aura), but I have to perhaps steer you away from the Astra (in its present state). It has single-digit domestic content percentage, and really is sort of an odd duck in the Saturn line-up. Seems like an okay car otherwise, and if they'd build it here, I'd be more inclined to like it...
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Noodles
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Username: Noodles

Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Buy a Ford Focus.



A decade old design.

USA! USA! USA!
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 2016
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Astra is an Opel, built in Europe.

Not that it matters to the self-loathing Detroiters amongst us, but perhaps it would to some.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1249
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Vibe gets fantastic mileage, as Awfavre says...more than the sticker says.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 709
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And Opel is part of GM...Has been since the 20s.

Besides the fact that the Astra was the best car for my family for the money, I get to support to things in purchasing it:

-General Motors
-Quality small cars that handle well, something that the big three have pretty much forgotten about

The big 3 need to learn that small car doesn't mean cheap car. Cadillac should be going up against the BMW 3**; all three companies shouldn't hand over the entire market segment to VW & Honda. If I can help them to re-educate them, great.

If you care at all about road feel and cornering, then you have to seriously consider the Astra. The car drives. If you are more concerned about folding rear seats and similar features, perhaps the Vibe is the better choice.

One more plug for the Astra, it sounds nice. I drove around a Corolla with that 1.8 Toyota motor for 2.5 years, and I hated the way it sounded. It gets good mileage and has good grunt off idle, but it isn't pleasing to the senses.

My only "complaint" is that the Astra 1.8L needs to get above 2000 rpm to come to life. But everything else about the car is perfect. It has the best no-compromise handing of any car I've ever driven. (I've got the sport handling package). It compares to the Fiero GT that I drove a bit a decade ago...a little less of a race car, but much better over uneven pavement. It blows the Beretta GT (Z51) that I had in high school out of the water.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 2019
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Focus is a way better car than the Astra.

Better technology (SYNC, Satellite, Ambient..), better MPG (35mpg vs 32mpg), better ride, costs less, smaller turning diameter, more headroom, less expensive.

And with more horsepower and more torque, it doesn't have problems "coming to life."

I doubt GM makes much money with the Euro exchange rate. Meanwhile, the Focus is headquarterd, engineered and built here in Detroit.
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Lodgedodger
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Username: Lodgedodger

Post Number: 1593
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you're looking for a Vibe-y type car, take a Subaru Outback for a test drive.

You'll be sold. Best car out there.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 3385
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "A decade old design."

What four-wheeled internal combustion petrol burning automobile isn't? Try a century-old.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 323
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heck wait until May and get the next generation Equinox. It in every way blows away either of them.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1250
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Suburu is overrated, and about the ugliest car design I've ever seen, bar none. At least the Volvo Cross Country looks sort of cool.
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Detroitej72
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Username: Detroitej72

Post Number: 1285
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll second the Ford Focus. My 2006 Focus is probably the best handling cars I've ever owned. And its great in the snow.

Another car I'd recommend is the Saturn Vue. My fiance has one and we enjoy the millage and storage space it has.
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Zimm
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Username: Zimm

Post Number: 107
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

don't get me started on my GF's 2002 Subaru Forrester. it's the worst designed and engineered, lowest quality, worst gas mileage relative to vehicle and engine size, least reliable POS i have ever come across-and this includes the 1986 Suzuki Samaurai that i once drove (and retailed for under $6,000.)

and while i am generally very supportive of Ferndale businesses (since i live there) i could never in good conscience send someone to the service department at Hodges. their mechanics are neither competent or knowledgeable(especially on the type of vehicle that they should specialize in) nor reasonably priced (i was able to save almost 50% for her on a recent simple repair by taking it to just 1 other shop. imagine if we had truly "shopped around.")
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Lodgedodger
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Username: Lodgedodger

Post Number: 1597
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Subaru has been the best car I've ever owned. Also, I can load more into it than any other vehicle I've owned.

Okay, back to the Vibe versus Matrix. I
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Jiminnm
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Username: Jiminnm

Post Number: 1763
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The current issue of Consumer Reports gives very similar good ratings to both the Vibe and matrix.

With all of you who talk about profits, are there currently any profits on the sale of any car? All auto makers are offering thousands in incentives, and GM is (on average, anyway) secong only to Chrysler in the amount per car being offered. My guess is that it's a tactic to move the months of inventory sitting unsold.
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Roq
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Username: Roq

Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The profit from your Vibe goes to GM/Detroit, the profit from the Matrix to Toyota/Tokyo. "

Pfft is right on the money. Why is this apparently simple concept so hard for some people to grasp? WGAS where it's made, what counts is where the profit ends up.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"WGAS where it's made, what counts is where the profit ends up."

Who gives a shit where it's made? Tell that to all the Ohioans that build Hondas. Or the folks in Tennessee that build Toyotas. BTW they all pay taxes on their income and support Soc. Security and Medicare. What do the builders of the Fusion or Astra contribute?

So, as long as the profits end up back here in Motown, it's OK? Well, then move ALL of the production out of the country and see how that works out.

Is that concept hard to grasp? Right now we need jobs. Period.

The question, Vibe vs. Matrix: Since they're essentially the same car, I'd buy the Vibe. Assembled in the U.S. and doesn't have the Toyota "stigma" here in SE Mich.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1268
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Who gives a shit where it's made? Tell that to all the Ohioans that build Hondas. Or the folks in Tennessee that build Toyotas.

I don't live in Ohio or Tennessee. I don't live in Canada, Germany or Japan either. I fail to see the difference. Please explain.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 1049
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I don't live in Ohio or Tennessee. I don't live in Canada, Germany or Japan either. I fail to see the difference. Please explain."

I'll speak s-l-o-w-l-y:
1. You live in the U.S.
2. Ohio & Tennesse are in the U.S.
3. "Foreign" auto workers in OH & TN pay U.S. Taxes.
4. Workers in Canada, Germany & Japan don't pay U.S. taxes.

Get it?
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1269
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1. I didn't insult you, and I don't understand why you felt the need to insult me. It certainly doesn't make your argument any more persuasive.
2. Don't Ford and GM pay US taxes? Don't they pay Detroit and SE Michigan taxes? Don't they employ non-assembly autoworkers all the way up the ladder, many of them in SE Michigan?
3. I'm open to persuasive counterarguments.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 614
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I currently own an Astra two door and love it.

It is a very solid car. I agree it does sound great. I think the mileage (30 mpg mixed)is a little lacking for a car its size though.

It is the small car GM has been building and selling in Europe for years and should have brought here 30 years ago.

I wanted to wait and take a look at the coming soon Ford Fiesta but my current Ford had other plans.

It's one of those tricky things. Do you buy the Saturn built in Europe or the Honda built in the U.S.

Very confusing.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 1050
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bearinabox

My point is that I'm sick of the Buy American rally, yet the Big 3 continue to buy foreign. My argument is that we need jobs here in the U.S. and we need them now. Purchasing anything made on U.S. soil by U.S. citizens is better than buying a "domestic" built outside of the U.S. At least in my opinion, and it's not going to change. BTW, I never have and never will own anything but a D3 nameplate. But I've taken it a step further and will NEVER purchase a vehicle assembled outside the U.S. regardless what the nameplate says. A true "American" product is built in America.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1270
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I certainly don't disagree with the point that we need more jobs here. I guess my question is this: If a car is designed and engineered in SE Michigan, but built in Canada or Mexico, doesn't that create more jobs here in SE Michigan than a car that's designed and engineered in Japan, but built in Tennessee?
If you buy Big 3 cars built in the US, of course, that creates more US jobs than either of the above scenarios (although not necessarily more SE Michigan ones, which is really what I care about).
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 1051
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the production creates more jobs. Besides, many of the "domestic" imports aren't designed/engineered here anyway. (Astra, G8)

Bearinabox, sorry if I insulted you. I didn't mean to. I'm just sick of the buy American chant, yet imports are OK if the profits come back here. That logic doesn't make any sense to me at all. I've said it on several other threads so I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing it. What they don't realize is that if ALL (or at least much more) of the domestic production is shipped outside our borders, what good will that do? Will we be so willing to loan the D3 money when they ship our jobs outside the U.S.? If that happens, we might be THANKFUL for the trasnplants that have invested here.

BTW, not all Japanese engineering takes place is Japan. Toyota invested in a Tech Center in Ann Arbor.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1271
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I think the production creates more jobs. Besides, many of the "domestic" imports aren't designed/engineered here anyway. (Astra, G8)

quote:

BTW, not all Japanese engineering takes place is Japan. Toyota invested in a Tech Center in Ann Arbor.

This is the sort of thing I meant when I referred to "persuasive counterarguments." My main reason for posting on this thread is to get my own thoughts straight. Like 321brian said, it's all very confusing.
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Hpgrmln
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Username: Hpgrmln

Post Number: 667
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Coworker of mine traded in his Matrix for...another Matrix. Iasked him why he didnt buy the Vibe instead.
"The last 3 cars i tried to buy were GM but they didnt want me buying one. They wouldnt finance me. Toyota did."
Theres the only difference anyones given me
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 887
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My post won't focus on all the arguments in here. That's for you to make up your mind on.

I actually was helping a friend car shop 2 months ago. It was down to the Vibe, Matrix, and Ford Escape. So I'll run down the differences. Please keep in mind they were all 2008's at the time, things may have changed for 2009 so you'll have to check.

Same basic cars. Same engines, transmissions, etc.

Vibe is built in Fremont, CA Matrix in Cambridge Ontario.

Vibe has standard XM satellite radio. This is an option on Matrix.

Vibe has a 5yr/100,000 powertrain warranty, Matrix is 5yr/ 60,000 powertrain. Bumper to bumpers are both 3yr/36,000 miles.

Vibe has standard stability control system. This is optional on Matrix. (I highly highly recommend this system....best safety invention since ABS)

Vibe has OnStar standard. Not available on Matrix.

Vibe has the rear cargo management system as an option, Matrix it is not an option http://www.usautosales.com/new rigs/Pontiac/art/vibe09cargo.j pg

Air Conditioning is NOT standard on Vibe ($950), it is standard on Matrix. However, Matrix is already approx $950 more expensive, so this is really a wash (you pretty much have to get A/C these days).

Those are really the big ones. Other things I would keep in mind are 1) GM's future ability to honor any warranty. As sad as it is, GM's going bankrupt is a very very real possibility. While it seems warranties and parts would be included in any bankruptcy process, it might not be. A warranty doesn't do you much good if GM's not around to honor it.

2) The Toyota brand name means that the Matrix will almost certainly have higher resale value than the Vibe. Again, just the way it is.

Personally, when we looked at both, the Vibe ended up having more features (standard stability control and satellite radio the primary ones) and was slightly less money at that time when comparably equipped to the Matrix due to Pontiac's slightly higher incentives. But again, that was January. Things may be different now. You can check edmunds for the latest incentives
http://www.edmunds.com/incenti ves/RebateController?step=1&se tzip=60610&tid=edmunds.n.incen tivesindex.incentives.1.1.*

I know at that time, you got an extra $500 I believe, if you were a current GM vehicle owner. Don't know if they're still doing that.

Basically take a look, consider all the sides, build them online, compare prices with incentives, etc and make your choice. At the end, you're getting basically the same car.

Just be sure you don't pay a lick over invoice price (you might be able to do even better than that, then subtract your incentives from there). Dealers should be dealin at this time... :-)

FYI, my friend actually ended up buying the Escape. She thought she looked "cooler" in it than the Matrix or Vibe. Ha. I like the Ford a lot, also a good car. But its definitely more of a SUV/truck while the Matrix/Vibe is more of a car/wagon. So whatever you prefer in that regard as well. She loves the Ford.
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Little_mike
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Username: Little_mike

Post Number: 48
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't buy either. Get a used car a few years old. You'll save a bundle and still be able to get a good ride.

Take the money saved and save it for a rainy day. We're in a recession. You'll be happier in the long run.

You'll thank me someday.

(Message edited by Little_mike on March 04, 2009)
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 603
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L: Good advice! Pay cash for a car that is a few years old if you can. If not, save until you can. Build a rainy day account.
Have an occasional night out instead of paying interest to a welfare collecting bank each month.
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Luckycar
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Username: Luckycar

Post Number: 153
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't want to wade in here and be accused of advertising,but what Little Mike and Bobl are saying is the truth.Let the people who must have the latest and flashiest vehicle take the value hit.Buy a two or three year old car.Buy an older one with a warrarty if you can't afford such a new one.Nothing devalues faster than a new vehicle.The more expensive the vehicle,the faster the fall.A $60,000 car will be a $30,000 car in a year.Now some makes don't fall so fast,but even the holy imports can drop like a rock in a short time.Remember whats a hot seller today can be cold as ice at the wholesale auctions next year.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 710
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RE: focus vs. astra

The stopped making a hatchback focus, otherwise I would have seriously considered the focus. The only reason we got a new car was because we wanted a hatchback.

I didn't even look at subarus. AWD is a gas hog.

There aren't that many small (but not tiny) hatchbacks being made right now. I'm convinced for my needs (and budget), that the Astra is the best one.
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Reddog289
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Username: Reddog289

Post Number: 963
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 4:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Due to the big increase on my house payment, I will not be buying anything new or used anytime soon. But if I could, I would pick a vehicle made round the motor city. F150,Silverado, Dodge Ram, Focus,Malibu, and the Mustang.I have gotten to the point where it is keep my money here.The Tundra is a nice truck, Yeah so are the ones from the big 3, They do the same thing Haul stuff or look pretty. My "Dad" bought an Acura bout 20 yrs ago, Still has it, drives it, ETC.My point is if you want it buy it, If it is not made here then your neighboors might be outta work.If your neighbor ain't working or your not workin that ain't good.Your house might look good compared to that vacant house next door, yet why buy into a declining neighborhood.
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Christos
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Username: Christos

Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had a Vibe for 5 years, and I beat the crap out of that car (put 210,000 miles on it in those 5 years) and I NEVER had any engine problems with it EVER.

The only reason why I got rid of it was because I got a hand me down Buick with not a lot of miles- as much as I love my Buick, I REALLY miss my Vibe.
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Gencinjay
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Username: Gencinjay

Post Number: 110
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Another car I'd recommend is the Saturn Vue. My fiance has one and we enjoy the millage and storage space it has."

This is one of the cars I looked at when it was time go turn in my Vibe. I was a little surprised to find that there really isn't any more room in a Vue than a Vibe and the Vibe rides better IMO. I quickly decided against the Vue (Although the new models have the most comfortable seats I've ever seen). I really wanted an Edge but opted for a Dodge Journey because it had many more family friendly features and was $5000 less.
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Nickstone
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Username: Nickstone

Post Number: 62
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

just as another perspective, i convinced my girlfriend to buy a focus instead of a prius and it's been a great car... i drove it and was very impressed...
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Barebain
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Username: Barebain

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where does the Mazda 6 fit into this discussion? Ford motor. Ford platform. Good car. Built in Flat Rock at the Mustang plant. What to do?
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Thoswolfe
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Username: Thoswolfe

Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 3:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mazda 6? A FOREIGN car? tsk tsk to anyone who dares buy one.Tht would not be buying American now, would it?(hypocrites)

My company insists our company cars must be American cars.Most recent POS is an 08' Ford Fusion- built in Mexico.

To hell with all the car reviews that are in bed with the manufacturer's publicists. The 06 Malibus we drove were great cars(and yet, GM replaced that platform with 'much nicer'-and pricier revised 08 Malibus)
And before that we had 04 Focus which was more comfortable, economical and versatile than the sporty looking Fusions everyone 'had to have'.
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Abraham
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Username: Abraham

Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 8:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I say if your worried on how much the company profits, just send them some money. When I buy something I want to be the one to profit. Really the least they profit the better off your are (cheaper car) buy what you like the best. ofcoarse test drive both and decide. very easy. That being said I would go with the Focus myself. Has nothing to do with who makes it or how much the company profits off you. We are all in the same world here is how I look at it. Buy the best you can afford that the world has to offer.
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Abraham
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Username: Abraham

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Better hurry up though, in another year or two you wont be able to buy any ford, except a used one.
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Otter
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Username: Otter

Post Number: 656
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Barebain,

The platform and US powertrain in the first Mazda 6 were developed by Mazda and borrowed by Ford, which adapted (mind you, it was not just a sort of carryover job) and still uses it in the Fusion. It is built on the same line on the Mustang. Though both Ford and Mazda were involved, Mazda had engineering lead on the Escape also. Dunno about the 3/Euro Focus. Current US Focus platform is all-Ford, a carryover (still!) platform from the original Focus, which was developed by Ford of Europe. Collaborations are not always so clear-cut when you want to assign 'credit' to someone to further your ideas about what one should buy. (I'm not referring to you personally, Barebain, but to the general tendency, plenty in evidence in this thread.)

O.
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Thoswolfe
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Username: Thoswolfe

Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its doubtful Ford is in dire straits, squeezing the suppliers= more profits for Ford down the road and less drain on those cash reserves.
Ford opted not to go in the welfare line. But probably for family reasons- The Ford family would have to give up control of their cash cow if Ford took a bailout.
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Barebain
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Username: Barebain

Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Otter,

Thanks for the clarifications. I think your post speaks volumes about the difficulties in assigning hometown value to the very complex, global entities that modern automobiles are. Now, I don't mean to say that we should ignore all boundaries in our purchases. Indeed, buying goods and service that most benefit Detroit is central to the discussion happening here on this thread. I just think it's difficult to stick a pin in it and call it 'American' these days. There are grey areas to navigate, and it appears that just about everybody in this forum puts a lot of thought into their auto purchases. (as they rightly should)

I will say this, however. (seeing as this thread is about the Vibe vs. Matrix) If you go out to California, you will see very few Vibes and many Matrixes. (Matrices?) My question: Why would people knowingly shun a locally assembled product in favor of one built in faraway rust-belt Ontario? Could it be that many Californians don't even want to be seen driving a GM nameplate? (quite the opposite of us here in the midwest, where the US nameplate counts for all) Could it be that blind emotion often trumps calm rationale when the topic of cars comes up?

This is our fight.
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Otter
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Username: Otter

Post Number: 663
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

barebain,

It is true that hometown-ness is not so simple, even discounting the number of ways that it can be considered. The "buy american" crowd, for one, appears to really mean either "buy vehicles made by an american or canadian labor union" or "buy vehicles labeled with nameplates of ford, gm or chrysler" Nothing wrong with that if that's where your priorities, are, but the question is not so clear-cut as some people treat it. The auto industry is very international and collaborative today. I wonder whether the "buy american" crowd thinks people in other countries should buy american cars, or whether they should build their own and buy those.

As for your observation re: California, I don't think that people in California or any other part of the US with high "import" penetration (which is to say, most of it outside of a few midwestern states) make a "conscious" effort to "shun" a locally-assembled product. I don't think it even enters into their decision-making, and I bet most people in CA may not be aware that the Vibe is even built in Fremont. They buy Toyotas because they like Toyotas. People do buy plenty of US-label cars there too, but in much smaller percentages than in MI, which is itself an anomaly. Certainly emotion trumps calm rationality when buying a car comes up - buying a car you like has never been a purely logical decision for most anybody. Nothing at all wrong with that. As for the emotion that comes up in arguments, it is here where the "blind" emotion comes up, not CA. I do think you do a bit of a disservice to such emotion when you use the despective qualifier 'blind', though.

There are a myriad of reasons that people do what they do, which defies simplification. Not that that stops people from simplifying anyway! :-)

O.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1258
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a conscious choice to pick what's perceived as a "designer" brand, the same reason people will buy jeans or athletic shoes with a certain name on it, it relates in no way to quality, some names just denote "class" to people and they don't care how irrational their choice is.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1259
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I should say, they don't care how irrational, or how opposed to their best interests, their choice is.

"All my neighbors have lost their homes and jobs!"

"Oh I think I'll buy another Toyota!"
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Otter
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Username: Otter

Post Number: 665
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pfft,

Sounds like you've got the American car buyer figured out! You should become a consultant.

O.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1293
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 8:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have had a Vibe for 5 years (first model year), put 90,000 miles on it, and have had no major problems. I love the car and this fall (assuming my wife and I survive in our jobs) am going to replace my Vibe with a brand new one. The only thing I do not like is the interior gets lots of outside noise, but I do have the moonroof, so I can't really complain about it. Great car if you are interested.
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 282
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pffft has a point. The beauty of a free market is that you are also free to pay for the consequences of your choices.

And people in Michigan are about to pay big. Michigan is highly dependent on the auto industry (more than any other place in the world), and it is a tax-exporting state. If it's not made here, and the white collar work is not done here, an "American" Toyota, Subaru, Nissan, etc. is just as much of the problem for Michigan as an imported one is. Take your average transaction price of $20,000. That much goes out the door as soon as you sign the papers. Would you voluntarily pay (say on a 5-year note) $4,000 plus interest a year to support some other state's economy when your own state's is in the tank? How about to a state that is already sucking tax money out of Michigan? How about to a state whose senators said in so many words that Detroit is not part of the same United States?

In about a year, ask the Birmingham dentist driving a Lexus whether he would have traded driving a Lincoln or Cadillac for having back the hundreds of thousands of dollars his home lost in value. Actually, you could ask that question now - or could have asked it last year.

Michigan has almost 10 million vehicles on the road. The median age of those vehicles is 9 years. You can do the math from the Secretary of State statistics - the number of non-US nameplate cars sold in Michigan alone would have a noticeable effect on sales for GM, Ford and Chrysler. Even tens of thousands of sales make a difference.

A lot of us don't work in the industry, work for the industry, or have family in the industry. But we do recognize that we would be lucky if the worst sacrifice we had to make as Michigan residents was buying an American nameplate. Even if you think that those cars are second rate, it's better to take a shortcut on your second-biggest purchase (a car) to protect the value of your biggest (your house).
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Jat44
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Username: Jat44

Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The average person does have the "perception" that American made cars are of lesser quality and value. Again, the key word here is; "perception".
There are problems with both the American & non-American made cars.
However, I would put up an American made car against a non-American made car of same price/class, etc. They both have their good an dbad points.
Japanese cars still have a "cheap" feel to them and European made cars are way over priced.
Do yourself and your neighbor a favor and buy American!!!!
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 933
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^Thank you Jatt44.

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 1052
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN."

You've never explained the rationale of the Big 3 for "buying foreign" by assembling cars outside of the US with cheaper labor.

EMPLOYED AMERICANS DRIVE AMERICA
OUT OF A MARKET TO SELL YOUR YOUR GOODS YET? KEEP EMPLOYING FOREIGN WORKERS
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Detroit_expat
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Username: Detroit_expat

Post Number: 90
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You've never explained the rationale of the Big 3 for "buying foreign" by assembling cars outside of the US with cheaper labor

Speaking for myself, I don't buy those. There are plenty of vehicles made by unionized Americans in America for American companies to choose from.

You know, it's funny to me how otherwise intelligent people say, "so, what's an 'American' car - a Honda Accord made in Ohio or a Ford Fusion made in Mexico?" The answer, obviously, is neither.

Point of assembly, country of origin for engine and transmission, and U.S./Canadian parts content, are ALL right there on the window sticker to see. Also, that same information is readily-available on the intertubes.

But, I digress. The Big 3's decision to send some production to Mexico is biting them in the ass, ain't it? While the U.S. and Canadian governments are providing loans to GM and Chrysler (and providing access to loans to Ford), I'm doubting the Mexican government is going to help them.
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Melocoton
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Username: Melocoton

Post Number: 73
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How's it biting them in the ass? They're getting bailouts plus cheap, exploitable labor.
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Jat44
Member
Username: Jat44

Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You've never explained the rationale of the Big 3 for "buying foreign" by assembling cars outside of the US with cheaper labor"
The US OEM cars made out of the US and then imported and sold back in the US are made in Mexico or Canada.
Why were they built there??? Have you ever heard of NAFTA???
You can thank William Jefferson Clinton and friends for that one!
What makes an American car vs a non-American car.....it depends on where the profits are sent. So, US OEM cars built in Mex. & Canada are indeed American cars.
Honda's and Toyota's built here are NOT American made cars....the profits go right back to the Mother Country.
Any one who buys a non-American OEM car during these times, especially if they live in Detroit, should leave the country!
The ones who do buy the Accord's, Lexus', etc. who live in the trendy neighborhoods and buy that sort of car because it is the "in" thing to do amongst their preppy little friends, will be the first to bitch about the value of their homes decreasing because of all the foreclosures.
LIVE IN AMERICA.....BUY AMERICAN!!!!
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Wash_man
Member
Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 1053
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jat44 you obviously skipped some posts. I won't repeat myself. Go back and read them.
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D_mcc
Member
Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 1706
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Coworker of mine traded in his Matrix for...another Matrix. Iasked him why he didnt buy the Vibe instead.
"The last 3 cars i tried to buy were GM but they didnt want me buying one. They wouldnt finance me. Toyota did."
Theres the only difference anyones given me"

Bingo...That's exactly why I bought my Honda. I was busting my ass to finance and work out a deal with Ford and Pontiac...nothing. Ford wouldn't lease me there car for less than 260...and we're talking an almost bare bones Fusion. Which I LOVED, keep in mind, this was with A-plan, incentives, competitive bonuses, etc. Honda leased me a civic for 209/mo...Same amount of money down, same sticker price...Go figure. Pontiac did the same thing when I tried to lease a G6
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D_mcc
Member
Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 1707
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jat44...While Clinton passed NAFTA...It was def. Bush I who was insturmental in its drafting and negotiating...but hey...who needs facts when you have Rush Limbaugh

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