  Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3573 Registered: 07-2004 |
Or at least that's Curt Guyette's take on it in this week's Metro Times. Anatomy of a story The news about Detroit's frozen man went around the world, but some pertinent details may never catch up by Curt Guyette http://www.metrotimes.com/news /story.asp?id=13739 | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 677 Registered: 03-2005 |
Wow, that's really splitting hairs there. | ||
Rocknrollscientist Member Username: Rocknrollscientist Post Number: 106 Registered: 05-2005 |
What's more interesting to me is the kind of language LeDuff used when questioned by a fellow reporter. Did he know his answers would be published? | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 804 Registered: 11-2006 |
LeDuff never ceases to amaze me. I am glad this was written. I guess most striking is the photographers concern for the individuals that lived in the building, over the body in the elevator shaft. It is a tricky ethical question and I am glad that it was not up to me to decided. It seems it would be very hard to say what one would do until they were in the situation. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2420 Registered: 08-2007 |
Curt sounds envious that he didn't get the scoop. His main complaint seems to be that the tip came through Charlie's brother. I have a brother too, if he would tell me the sun was going to rise in the morning I'd be out there watching just to double check. Leduff's story brought national focus to sad situation, if Curt was so concerned he could fill the weekly with stories that are just as compelling. Professional jealousy, what an ugly side to Curt Guyette. | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 192 Registered: 03-2007 |
Sometimes LeDuff reminds me of that reporter in "The Wire" who keeps making up sources and fudges the details in order to create more compelling stories. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 1261 Registered: 05-2006 |
What do you expect from LeDuff, he's from Livonia!!!  | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 1262 Registered: 05-2006 |
All kidding aside, after hearing Chuckles on NPR a few days after the story broke, he seemed more interested in making sure he was known as an expert on Detroit, even making a point to take long, breathy pauses for added effect. I had not been familier with LeDuff, or his style before this story broke. Since then, IMO, I think he has a rather high opinon of his own self-worth in the print media. It also doesn't supprise me that other's in the media are starting to call him out. In this story, he clearly let his ego get in the way, before checking(or even disregaurding) key facts. | ||
Cloud_wall Member Username: Cloud_wall Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2009 |
Sparty, I've been thinking the exact same thing. I only wish David Simon would have written a character as compelling as Charlie. That reporter and the editor who loved his "Dickensian" pieces were two of the worst characters ever on that show. Charlie could have even played himself. That would have been good television. I'm not suggesting (can't speak for you) that Charlie is going down the same road as Scott Templeton. I don't see much evidence of fudged details here, but I know there are is a lingering reputation for that. But the sensationalism is certainly similar. Either way, I love reading Charlie LeDuff's stuff and I wish he was doing more video stories for the News. Here's hoping he isn't exposed some day as a serious fraud. Right now, I think he's got a great thing going even if he's doing it right at the edge of professional credibility. (Message edited by Cloud_wall on February 26, 2009) | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 1274 Registered: 05-2006 |
After reading the MT article further, it appears as if Chuckle's thinks of himself as the 21st Century's Walter Winchell. Too bad he lacks the charachter of Mr. Winchell. | ||
Bshea Member Username: Bshea Post Number: 30 Registered: 01-2009 |
All I know is that he does pretty interesting stories in an otherwise dull-as-dogshit daily newspaper market. It's a breath of fresh air for the News, and a good counter balance to the assembly line-produced morality tales from Mitch Albom (the man Slate called a "huckster evangelist for the soccer mom set.") This market needs vibrant and different journalism in its dailies - personality. I'll be honest, the MT piece struck me as a whole lot of wind for minor quibbles, i.e. professional envy over a story MT would have soiled itself over to get first (both a symbol of Detroit's fatal urban decay AND a chance to hammer its favorite target, Moroun ... jackpot!) LOL ... | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5345 Registered: 06-2004 |
I want facts and objectivity from anyone claiming to be a news reporter. If it's anything else, even a little "personality," make it clear and call them a columnist. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 1278 Registered: 05-2006 |
LeDuff is a wannabe Albom. At least Mitch is humble with his take on Detroit, much to the chagrin of some on DY. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 736 Registered: 08-2006 |
LeDuff contributes to the lore and history of this city. He brings attention to the otherwise forgotten or overlooked complexities of this city. He is not a journalist, but a storyteller, and his stories are peppered with cautionary overtones and lessons-to-be-learned. As for Curt & MT, I'm glad someone did all the research -- and what a surprise to hear that Hocking found the body (he did the right thing, BTW) -- but my feeling is Curt is just jealous that LeDuff wrote something so good. I mean when this news dropped, deep down inside everyone who has been in this urbex 'scene' wishes THEY would've been the ones -- "Man, I wish I woulda found that body..." "Geez, if I had my camera there, I totally woulda gotten a better shot." "Dude, I wish we were playing hockey in an abandoned building in Detroit and we found a body encased in four feet of ice." AND -- for those of you who can't tell the difference between Albom & LeDuff, you might need to spend a few minutes getting your head examined. (Message edited by gsgeorge on February 26, 2009) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4184 Registered: 10-2003 |
"He is not a journalist, but a storyteller" Again, if that's the case, as Lilpup said, that should be made clear, and it isn't. I don't think that's asking too much, and this is coming from someone that doesn't fall heavily on either side of this debate about LeDuff. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 3025 Registered: 01-2004 |
"Leduff's story brought national focus to(a)sad situation" Yes it did. And that "sad situation" is Leduffs writing style and sometimes poor ethical choices. As for homeless, chemical dependents, billionaire slumlords and an abandoned city full of giant blown out buildings - well, Detroit has already had that national focus for a long time now. | ||
Roadmaster49 Member Username: Roadmaster49 Post Number: 122 Registered: 01-2008 |
Love him or hate him - it's never a bad thing to have checks and balances. LeDuff entertains as a way to seperate. | ||
Bshea Member Username: Bshea Post Number: 31 Registered: 01-2009 |
At least Mitch is humble with his take on Detroit, much to the chagrin of some on DY. Albom humble? LMAO ... http://www.slate.com/id/215053 5/ I quote: "Albom is literally a teller of fables, a peddler of shallow morality tales for the masses. You can see it in his risible sports writing, and you can see it in his best-selling books." | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 5801 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Agreed with the exception of billionaire slumlords. We know they are here but how many people in the nation, or even metro Detroit are truly aware of the situation. | ||
Chuckjav Member Username: Chuckjav Post Number: 1497 Registered: 09-2007 |
Both writers represent the sad & lowbrow state of modern print journalism. | ||
Cloud_wall Member Username: Cloud_wall Post Number: 19 Registered: 02-2009 |
Lowbrow? LeDuff is a reporter working a beat. What exactly do you mean? Would have him filing stories from the DIA every week or what? I think he's an awfully talented writer. He certainly has a flair for the dramatic, which attracts positive and negative attention, but what is "lowbrow" about his style or his subjects? | ||
Navi Member Username: Navi Post Number: 48 Registered: 09-2005 |
"I mean when this news dropped, deep down inside everyone who has been in this urbex 'scene' wishes THEY would've been the ones -- "Man, I wish I woulda found that body..." "Geez, if I had my camera there, I totally woulda gotten a better shot." "Dude, I wish we were playing hockey in an abandoned building in Detroit and we found a body encased in four feet of ice." " I personally couldn't give a rat's ass if I find a dead body in any building I visit. The 'urbex scene' isn't entirely composed of people who measure their self worth in terms of how many Flickr comments and awards they get for their 'shocking' photos. p.s. I'm not talking about you; It's just that I can't think of any other reason you'd want to find a dead body... | ||
Farrer Member Username: Farrer Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2003 |
*yawn* More Metroit celebrity hate..... Anyone remember Guyette's sanctimonious tirade and accusations on the forum a few years back? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5347 Registered: 06-2004 |
He does have a flair for the dramatic which is exactly why he shouldn't be considered a reporter. M.L. Elrick and Jim Schaefer are reporters. | ||
Hauntedbeat Member Username: Hauntedbeat Post Number: 70 Registered: 07-2007 |
I wouldn't be too upset about someone of Guyette's talent and position harshing my news story buzz, if I were LeDuff. From the tone of their conversation, sounds like he wasn't. Guyette's dying to uncover something sinister. Remember his "tainted orange juice" story? I'd put a hundred on his being a truther. | ||
Detroitchef Member Username: Detroitchef Post Number: 133 Registered: 09-2008 |
I'm not a fan of either of them, it's like wathing two retarded children slapping each other. | ||
Ashdetroit Member Username: Ashdetroit Post Number: 67 Registered: 08-2008 |
HAHA. A lot of people were posting comments on MT chiding Guyette because, hey, a guy died. I think his whole point is, no matter what the issue is, you can't tell only some of the truth. It was a great story. But LeDuff omitted the fact that his brother gave him the tip, and he made everyone else out to be heartless s.o.bs in Detroit when he couldn't even wait around for the cops to come. That's a lie. I'm not saying he did it purposefully like Scott Templeton...I mean, the guy had a deadline, it's not like he had Curt Guyette's time to play phone tag with the Urban Explorer Hockey League of Detroit. But if he learned things he wrote weren't true, I think he should have admitted it. The question I keep asking myself: If that hockey kid who found the body was wrestling with whether or not he should tell the story, did LeDuff's brother persuade him to call Charlie, instead of going to the police--for the sake of giving Charlie a big scoop? And then Charlie "discovers" the body? Because that seems pretty f'd up. | ||
Taj920 Member Username: Taj920 Post Number: 283 Registered: 01-2004 |
Guys playing hockey in abandoned warehouse just cements our reputation as Hockeytown. Minnesota and Massachussetts can't match that. | ||
Gplimpton Member Username: Gplimpton Post Number: 301 Registered: 05-2007 |
LeDuff is a very talented guy, and I like his work. If he massaged the truth for this story, then he deserves a little heat. He is not a straight newsman, not an Elrick or a Schaefer. And that's by design. He's a master of prose, and he can make a story jump off the page. Guyette's a good guy, but it seems to me like he's always trying to pick a fight with Detroit's top journalists. The only time you ever hear from Curt Guyette is when he's yelling at someone. | ||
Stikine Member Username: Stikine Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2009 |
Professional jealousy,...pure and simple. "A wannabe Albom"? Please,....Bitch Albom is a good, safe writer who has gone Hallmark Channel. Good luck with that,...he is becoming so non-relevant. This whole situation reminds me of watching National Geographic,..the scene where the lions have come in, made the kill, fed/gorged, then the lowly hyennas come in for the scraps and viscera lying in the dirt. The story is OVER,.... The way I see it,...LeDuff is a features reporter, he is not a straight news guy,....Always has been, always will be. He is a DAMN good writer,....Detroit is not the judge of that but the nation, or at least major publications,...Pulitzer organization, etc and counting We here in Detroit are soo fucking paranoid that nobody will get us, or who's the new guy claiming he know us, or you gotta pay your dues here before you open up your mouth. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!! Detroit is messed up, there are people here who do not give a shit about a dead body, and then there are people who do. Thank goodness we have a reporter/journalist/writer who can get the message across. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 807 Registered: 11-2006 |
I am sorry let me bow down and blow Charlie LeDuff for the great awareness he brings to the city. He is surely the only one who understands, and can flex and bend details to make a truly riveting story in such a deranged and challenged city like Detroit. Yeah, right. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 3028 Registered: 01-2004 |
"The story is OVER,.... " ooooooo - laying down the thunder after a stunning 8 post history on the board. Apparently, there are enough people who think this story was bs from the start. Still is. Really creepy how folks are coming out of the woodwork so strong for Charlie. Really strange. That was and that is the issue - Charlie. | ||
Stikine Member Username: Stikine Post Number: 9 Registered: 01-2009 |
Oh,...I am sorry Mauser,...I do not have the history of posts like you do,...Am I supposed to pay my dues to this forum and bow down to your literary opinions? I am supposed to stroke your overblown ego, that which you accuse others of doing? I think not,.....You and a few of your minions have issue with anything in this town that is new and a different take. I have been reading this forum for a couple of years now and only when I have been provoked have I joined in the conversation. What are you actually implying by this "strange" phenom that you are pointing out,...this creepy-ness? What I find creepy is that you do not let shit go,...We have heard you, oh exalted one! Now let others do the posting! | ||
Soulhawk Member Username: Soulhawk Post Number: 145 Registered: 04-2004 |
I think Guyette did a great job uncovering the rest of the story. Leduff's piece should have been relegated to the editorial page. The whole thing was just a giant Leduff is a white knight of a literay genious. The city owes Curt a high five for fighting back against the hatred that everyone, including the local news outlets, are so quick to dump on the city. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 599 Registered: 08-2008 |
I know that my comment here is rather belated and although this topic may have reached the point of saturation, I feel compelled to say this. In my opinion, those who state that Curt Guyette’s piece is borne of professional jealousy just don’t get it. In all of his years at the Metro Times, Guyette has exhibited nothing but journalistic integrity and exceptional investigative skills. Why, suddenly, would he become the type of person to be jealous of a fellow Detroit journalist? Yes, LeDuff’s story made headlines worldwide, for a few days. In comparison, the text message scandal made headlines worldwide for the better part of a year, and may well earn Elrick and Schaefer a Pulitzer. If Guyette had leanings toward professional jealousy, wouldn’t it be logical that those leanings would have revealed themselves in regard to Elrick and Schaefer more so than to LeDuff? That’s like envying your neighbor who owns a small motorboat, but not being envious of the neighbor who owns a yacht. It just doesn’t follow. Arguments that LeDuff’s piece was a good story that needed to be told or that LeDuff is an entertaining writer may be valid, but are completely irrelevant to Guyette’s piece and the point that he makes. Guyette is addressing journalistic integrity, not LeDuff’s writing skills or the importance of the story. The public has an implicit trust that journalists are presenting the facts as they happened, not their spin and not something somewhat resembling the facts. Any violation of that trust, however seemingly small that violation may be, places into doubt everything the journalist writes. As evidenced by those who stated that Guyette is “splitting hairs,” an assumption is often made that small details are of small significance, but nothing could be further from the truth. If a journalist is not honest with a small, verifiable fact, how can their honesty be assured when it comes to a larger piece of information, or information that cannot be corroborated by an outside source? How does the public know that what they’re reading is the truth? The journalist no longer has credibility. Altering the facts to make a better narrative is tantamount to journalistic malpractice. Once the facts have been altered, the piece becomes a work of fiction based on a true story, and does not belong on the front page or even on the editorial page, as has been suggested. While painting himself as the white knight and others as bungling or indifferent, LeDuff needed to explain why his priority was to go to the warehouse first, before he called the police. That order of priorities doesn’t fit with his white knight narrative, so he pretended (yes, PRETENDED) that the tip came from an unknown source and needed verification, when the tip actually came from a trustworthy source, his brother (or a man that he considers to be a brother). He needed to change the source of the tip to make the narrative work, and therein lies the problem. Guyette’s excellent investigative skills shed a light on LeDuff’s mendacity. I applaud Guyette and continue to hold him in high regard. With all of this talk about professional jealousy being bandied about, perhaps LeDuff should be jealous of Guyette, whose investigative skills put him in a league with Elrick and Schaefer, and who has never compromised his journalistic integrity for the sake of sensationalism. | ||
Bshea Member Username: Bshea Post Number: 40 Registered: 01-2009 |
Do you know his brother is trustworthy, or are you making an assumption? And was the story sensational, or was the photo? Clearly, the words were a far, far secondary thing for readers than the photo (which I think has a better Pulitzer shot than the KK reporting!). If Guyette had leanings toward professional jealousy, wouldn’t it be logical that those leanings would have revealed themselves in regard to Elrick and Schaefer more so than to LeDuff? That’s like envying your neighbor who owns a small motorboat, but not being envious of the neighbor who owns a yacht. It just doesn’t follow. I can't comment on Curt's motivations, but the dead-guy-in-ice story is right in MT's wheelhouse: Urban tragedy AND a chance to blame Moroun, the MT's pet whipping boy. The KK story is one far beyond MT's resources (the legal bills alone might bankrupt it), but the frozen bum story was tailor-made for an alternative weekly. That's just my take on why one potentially could be jealous of one story versus the other. Not saying it's true or not true, just that there's some logic for it to be true. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 600 Registered: 08-2008 |
quote: Of course that's an assumption, since I don't know LeDuff or his brother. However, this was not his biological brother, but rather a good friend upon whom LeDuff seemingly bestowed the title of "brother." My instinct tells me that for someone to be given that title, they'd have to be a relatively decent person. As they say, you can't choose your family but you can choose your friends. LeDuff chose this friend to be his family, so I would have to say that implies a fair amount of trust. That's just my opinion. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2473 Registered: 08-2007 |
Of course, you also know that this "brother" wanted his name to be used, right? You're sure that this "brother" didn't want remain anonymous, right? If you read the Guyette piece, you also know that the "brother" never saw the body. The body was seen by the Hockey Player and the Dutch photag ... the Hockey Player called the "brother" who inturn called LeDuff. So, if your brother calls you and says, "A buddy on mine says there is body ..." LeDuff didn't report the name of the tipster, just as many reporters don't report the name of their tipsters. The name of the tipster is not relevant to the discussion of Guyette's professional niff-gnaw piece. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 602 Registered: 08-2008 |
Niff-gnaw (???) is your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled. I stand by my opinion. | ||
Thefishwrap Member Username: Thefishwrap Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2008 |
I don't disagree completely with your assessment Downtown_Lady, but "... perhaps LeDuff should be jealous of Guyette, whose investigative skills put him in a league with Elrick and Schaefer ..." Really? I think that's a bit of a stretch. It appears that Guyette knows a couple of urban explorers (tight knit community) who know a couple of guys. He did good work, but this wasn't cracking Watergate or the Kwame scandal or anything.. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 603 Registered: 08-2008 |
My assessment of his investigative skills is based on his whole body of work over many years, not just this story. | ||
Thefishwrap Member Username: Thefishwrap Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2008 |
I don't much of his work outside of this piece, do you have any links? I'm interested in reading more. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 604 Registered: 08-2008 |
If you're interested in reading more, try metrotimes.com instead of detroityes.com. But you knew that. Oh, you wanted me to list specific stories? They're all there -- have at it. Search by Guyette. | ||
Vic_doucette Member Username: Vic_doucette Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2003 |
Downtown and Fishwrap, I'll admit to a certain prejudice here haveing worked with Curt for more than five years in a previouis life and having seen him only a couple of weeks ago. I'll proudly call him my friend. That said, I seem to remember -- and would welcome a correction if I am wrong -- that CG wrote the very first story on what eventually became Kwamegate -- a long time before anyone else got the story. Others got the praise for uncovering more of the story later. They deserve that praise. But Curt, IIRC, was the one who first cracked open the box. | ||
Thefishwrap Member Username: Thefishwrap Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2008 |
"If you're interested in reading more, try metrotimes.com instead of detroityes.com. But you knew that. Oh, you wanted me to list specific stories? They're all there -- have at it. Search by Guyette." Wow. I was just curious if you had any specific suggestions. There's a lot there, and I'm not in the mood to read through everything. Thanks for the help, I guess. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 606 Registered: 08-2008 |
Maybe I misread your post, Thefishwrap -- your knowledge of the urban exploring community (that they're a tight-knit group) didn't jibe with your indication that you haven't read Guyette and even needed links to his stories. I'm happy to provide help if needed, but I also have no interest in jumping through hoops for the amusement of someone pretending to be uninformed. If I misread you, I apologize. (But I don't think I did.) | ||
Thefishwrap Member Username: Thefishwrap Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2008 |
Downtown_lady: I've read detroitblogger John on occasion, and so that's where I learned about urban exploring. I read the Metro Times from time to time, but pay not particular attention to the author. So I'm not really familiar with Guyette's work. Message boards are a fickle thing where the actual meaning of a post gets lost sometimes, I guess. |
