 
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4410
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:25 pm: |    |
quote:one way for detroit to "hub" itself somewhat would be to eliminate the redundant Chicago --> Toledo link
Sure, why not? There's nothing between Detroit and the East Coast.... |
Eastsideal
Member
Username: Eastsideal
Post Number: 332
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:40 pm: | |
If you look at that map one of the obvious missing links is the one between Detroit and Buffalo, meaning between Detroit and NYC and the east coast. Also between anywhere in the U.S. and Toronto (although I notice that they have the link to Montreal there). Having an area the size of Detroit only connect to a city far to the west is just not a very productive approach for us.
If we wanted to be truly modern we could cooperate with the Canadians on this to the benefit of both countries with modern high speed rail across southern Ontario. Of course if we were interested in modernity we would also take a page from Europe and stop this crazy customs hostility and institute a customs union and a much more open border. This would certainly be beneficial to both countries, and would be especially good for the Detroit-Windsor area.
It all goes back to my contention that moving back towards a more open border with our Canadian neighbors, and a more cooperative addressing of our common problems and needs, would be one of the best things that could happen for this area. Detroit and Michigan must push the Obama administration strongly for more open borders now. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3543
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:46 pm: | |
I remember taking Amtrak from Detroit to Columbia, S.C., in 1989. That sucked. Routed us out to Chicago (!) then on to Washington, D.C., then down to Columbia. Took several days. I had no idea why they made us do that!
It would be very nice to have a real rail link to Toledo. When I'd ride the rail from New York to Detroit, I'd just have my freakin' friends pick me up in Toledo. Driving an hour to pick me up in Toledo wasn't much weirder than driving an hour to pick me up at metro airport. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4411
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:57 pm: | |
quote:If you look at that map one of the obvious missing links is the one between Detroit and Buffalo, meaning between Detroit and NYC and the east coast. Also between anywhere in the U.S. and Toronto (although I notice that they have the link to Montreal there). Having an area the size of Detroit only connect to a city far to the west is just not a very productive approach for us.
www.ohiohub.com should answer your questions. |
Detroit313
Member
Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 781
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:03 pm: | |
Novine-
Thanks for the info and I hate to bring politics into this, but Candace Miller WTF-
Why is the GOP trying to block every bill of legislation for progress?
High speed rail upgrades will clearly create job! Or should we be drilling!
This is ridiculous!
<313> |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 347
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:13 pm: | |
thanks dan for that link. looks like so many other places are ahead of us on this curve... OHIO!!!! CHICAGO!!! <--- that would be like Colbert says it ;)
meanwhile granholm is talking about widening m59 from four to six lanes...ugh...
i still think we should lobby for early adoption between chicago and detroit vs. chicago and toledo (if it's ever truly highspeed rail someday, routing through detroit vs. toledo will only add a little to the trip), especially if the upside is getting to toronto (and by extension the east coast.
opening up and thinking in union w/windsor and canada is a very important way detroit can leverage it's location. getting seamless rail travel to toronto and points east puts detroit in a good position.
call/write your favorite governator, obamocrat, or congressperson now before we miss our chance to be "overstimulated" in ways that only perpetuate the sprawl... |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4412
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:16 pm: | |
Detourdetroit, you'll be happy to know that a Toledo-to-Detroit leg is included in the third phase of the Ohio Hub plan. The first phase, Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cinc innati, will receive stimulus money, and should be running by the end of 2010. Cleveland-Toledo is the second phase.
From what I understand, the folks in Columbus would love to be able to serve Detroit Metro Airport en route to downtown Detroit. I believe MDOT is taking responsibility for studying the potential routings of the Michigan segments, even though the service would be operated by the State of Ohio. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1109
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:27 pm: | |
"I haven't been to Chicago in a while via Amtrak, so can someone tell me when they upgraded to 110 MPH on that stretch? Last I heard it was still at 95 MPH."
You might be right. I had thought they had made the transition to 110 MPH but the latest article I could find said it's coming soon. If the state was smart, they would match the federal dollars with some state dollars to extend the length of the corridor where the trains can run at higher speeds. |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 348
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:46 pm: | |
oh pretty please... let's get all marshall plan on this economic disaster and get us some of these bad boys up and running...
going under the the bridge made me all a twitter...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =Dw4zn-qw1oM
this sounds like a canadian show from a few years ago, so i think we could get the canadians on board ;) mag lev is soo cool, but soo expensive. but what's a few hundred billion these days?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =VuSrLvCVoVk&feature=related
soo much fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =rUVD1rSFpEA&feature=related
let's get our unemployed engineers and line workers back on track, literally! why are we expanding m59 when we could be doing something like this?!?!? |
Sg9018
Member
Username: Sg9018
Post Number: 275
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:10 pm: | |
The Free Press has artilce about this,
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20090219/BLO G2505/90219025&s=d&page=1#pluc kcomments |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 350
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:25 pm: | |
god we look like neanderthals compared with other places...
http://www.500kmh.com/projecti nfo.html |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 1958
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:30 pm: | |
If there is an inverse silver lining, this forum can always find it. |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 351
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:32 pm: | |
why can't we talk about planning and transportation in these kinds of terms...
http://web.mac.com/alan_james/ iWeb/UltraspeedMedia/Latest%20 News/13B6FF18-C71E-4635-BB65-7 D982C1F66FB.html |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3797
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 7:34 pm: | |
quote:and California is planning (and has passed funding for) a 200 mph line from Los Angeles to the Bay Area.
California isn't playing around...
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca. gov/map.htm |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 2076
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:44 pm: | |
Let's focus on what makes sense: regional trips via high speed rail. Even if you make rail speeds approach 250mph, this country is just too big for cross-country rail to really grab a foothold. NYC-LA will always be an air route. But there are a lot of mid-distance routes that really should be served by high-speed rail:
Chicago-Detroit-Toronto
Chicago-St. Louis-Kansas City
Chicago-Milwaukee-Minneapolis
Chicago-Memphis
New York-Philly(done)-Pittsburgh
New York-DC(done)-Raleigh/Durham-C harlotte-Atlanta
Maybe even the Auto Train route to Florida, since there's so many East Coasters making that trip...maybe if it took half as much time, more would do it.
Stuff like that. IMO.
And then the West Coast, but all they really need is a straight line train out there. All the major West Coast cities are on the coast. Forget Vegas and Phoenix. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:54 pm: | |
Detroitnerd wrote, "the NE corridor's "big four" isn't straight enough to breach 100 mph except on rare straightaways."
I don't think that's true. 125 MPH is standard on much of the line, and there are many straight sections (less of them between New York and Boston). And, 150 MPH is reached by the Acela Express trains in a very few spots.
Detroitnerd, in 1989 you could have taken an Amtrak train from Detroit to Toledo. That segment was discontinued circa 1994. Either the person who arranged your route deliberately misled you, or he/she didn't know what he/she was doing.
Eastsideal-- unfortunately, the shortest rail link between Detroit and Buffalo-- which Amtrak's "Niagara Rainbow" took-- is now largely abandoned. Conrail sold it in 1985 to CN and CP, and they got rid of it, probably partly so that nobody else would compete with them.
Freight trains still go between the cities but they take a more roundabout route up towards Hamilton or Toronto and then down to Buffalo.
And of course, Amtrak's "International" between Chicago and Toronto via Port Huron was discontinued in 2004. That was done partly because of Customs delays, and partly so that a more convenient schedule could be effected on the surviving Chicago-Port Huron "Blue Water." |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 1462
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:56 pm: | |
Just for reference on how the speed system works...
Track type Freight train Passenger
Excepted [us 1] <10 mph (16 km/h) not allowed
Class 1 10 mph (16 km/h) 15 mph (24 km/h)
Class 2 25 mph (40 km/h) 30 mph (48 km/h)
Class 3 40 mph (64 km/h) 60 mph (97 km/h)
Class 4 [us 2] 60 mph (97 km/h) 80 mph (130 km/h)
Class 5 [us 3] 80 mph (130 km/h) 90 mph (140 km/h)
Class 6 110 mph (180 km/h)
Class 7 [us 4] 125 mph (201 km/h)
Class 8 [us 5] 160 mph (260 km/h)
Class 9 [us 6] 200 mph (320 km/h)
More details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T rack_class_ (scroll down and click on Track Class United States) |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4146
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:55 pm: | |
Yeah, I was surprised, too, to see that no one seems to get that passenger trains are relatively "slow" in this country because they are forced to share a railway. In most other developed nations, freight and passenger service is seperated. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1111
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 7:29 am: | |
Freep editorial on HSR:
http://freep.com/article/20090 220/OPINION01/902200336
Apparently HSR is a platform to refight the Kwame K battles based on the one comment up there. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3545
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 10:50 am: | |
Burnsie: Thanks for the input. I took the Acela a few times and I kept seeing the cars pass US when a highway was in view. At a few points, we really started going fast, but then we'd have to curve and would slow down. Disturbingly, when we seemed to be going at top speed, my car started "shuddering" and it was unnerving. Then again, these were all trips between New York and Philly. I never did take it to Boston or on down below Philly. Maybe that's where it made high speed?
As for my trip to Columbia, I have no idea why I was routed out to Chicago then. Maybe there was some temporary work on the Detroit-Toledo line? I don't think I was jerked around, because I remember asking if it was really necessary.
Worst thing about taking the Lakeshore Limited? The customs enforcement boarding the train and waking up everybody with a complexion darker than olive. Damn nazi-wannabes. > |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:22 am: | |
We need to bring the rail system up to mid-20th century levels before talking about 250 mph trains. Just to be able to go 80 mph and have a working network of clean trains, as they were when some of us were kids, would be wonderful.
Just rode Amtrak to Chicago and it's OK service, but it'd be nice to have a faster ride, a cafe car at least on the level of Canadian trains, and clean windows. I don't have faith in the infrastructure or the running of it to want to be on a bullet train on these routes just yet. Gotta crawl before you walk. |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:28 am: | |
quote:Maybe there was some temporary work on the Detroit-Toledo line?
amtrak rail service between detroit and toledo doesn't exist. they only have bus service to toledo in order to connect you to trains going east |
Eastsideal
Member
Username: Eastsideal
Post Number: 334
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:35 am: | |
A lot of the Acela is still on old roadbed. The parts of the run immediately around NYC (through lower CT and NY suburbs, and out through NJ) are the slowest parts.
We just had a client from Japan who insisted on taking the Acela (all travel was to be "first class") from New Haven to NYC. I'm guessing that he was expecting something a bit more like his country's Shinkansen "bullet" trains. The fare for the Acela was $65, and it saved him a whole 11 minutes over the $12.50 commuter train. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1237
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:44 am: | |
There were only a few stretches between Jackson and Kalamazoo, and then between Kalamazoo and Chicago, that I felt we were going at a good clip, I can't really estimate but I'd say 80 to 90 tops. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4416
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:50 am: | |
quote:We just had a client from Japan who insisted on taking the Acela (all travel was to be "first class") from New Haven to NYC. I'm guessing that he was expecting something a bit more like his country's Shinkansen "bullet" trains. The fare for the Acela was $65, and it saved him a whole 11 minutes over the $12.50 commuter train.
The stretch of track from the New York state line to New Haven is owned by the Connecticut Department of Transportation, and is well-known for being *painfully* slow!
Acela cruises at 150 mph through Southern Mass and most of Rhode Island. |
River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat
Post Number: 352
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:20 pm: | |
The key word in the current plan is MAY.
Face it. The country is near bankrupcy and most of these plans are pie-in-the-sky pablum to keep the people from rioting the streets. Few of these "plans" will come to fruition.
The stimulus plan has done nothing to improve our lot and has placed a huge burden on our children and grandchildren. Why aren't we big enough to face our own problems now and allow our errors to be our problems? No more bailouts for anyone. I don't want to pay for my neighbors excesses any more than i want to pay for the stupidity of GM, Chrysler, Bank of America, etc ad infinitum.
Let's get real, 92% of us are paying our mortgages, our bills and caring for our kids.
If high speed rail is to work, it will work through private capital spending. A modern airliner costs $200M. When private capital will spend on rail, it will work. Stop the subsidies to airlines by building airports with public funds, stop building highways with public funds and turn them into private tollroads and then see if rail can find capital. We have a semi-socialist state rapidly approaching a fully national socialist one. Lets go back to real capitalism. This is how we became the greatest economic power in the world. We can do it again. |
River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat
Post Number: 353
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:20 pm: | |
The key word in the current plan is MAY.
Face it. The country is near bankrupcy and most of these plans are pie-in-the-sky pablum to keep the people from rioting the streets. Few of these "plans" will come to fruition.
The stimulus plan has done nothing to improve our lot and has placed a huge burden on our children and grandchildren. Why aren't we big enough to face our own problems now and allow our errors to be our problems? No more bailouts for anyone. I don't want to pay for my neighbors excesses any more than i want to pay for the stupidity of GM, Chrysler, Bank of America, etc ad infinitum.
Let's get real, 92% of us are paying our mortgages, our bills and caring for our kids.
If high speed rail is to work, it will work through private capital spending. A modern airliner costs $200M. When private capital will spend on rail, it will work. Stop the subsidies to airlines by building airports with public funds, stop building highways with public funds and turn them into private tollroads and then see if rail can find capital. We have a semi-socialist state rapidly approaching a fully national socialist one. Lets go back to real capitalism. This is how we became the greatest economic power in the world. We can do it again. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1817
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:26 pm: | |
We became the greatest economic power through real capitalism? You mean like the capitalism in the 19th century where the Federal government would give huge chunks of land to railroad companies for free so they would build?
And we should have our capitalists build our high speed rail, even though everywhere else in the world it's been governments doing it? Is there a single high-speed rail corridor anywhere on Earth that was built by private capital?
This is exactly the kind of thing a government OUGHT to be doing, investing in upgraded public infrastructure. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3547
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:30 pm: | |
You can't fight a myth, Profscott. You just have to let the myth fail before you can show the real way. |
River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat
Post Number: 355
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:43 pm: | |
Profscott,
The government didn't "give" the land to the RR's, it was in payment for building the transcontinental routes that were the wonder of the world at the time of completion. They were the 'raison d'etre' for the massive economic expansion of the country after the Civil War.
Please, Profscott, do you really think the rest of the world is better off than we are? In the next several weeks we will see the failure of several foreign sovereign banks; let's not spend until we do that to ourselves. I don't want the government to run more - I want them to provide what our founders intended. Safety from foreign powers and free commerce within our country. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1114
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:17 pm: | |
"They were the 'raison d'etre' for the massive economic expansion of the country after the Civil War."
OK, I'm willing to let you spout off with the "what our founders intended" crap without slapping that down with the facts about slave ownership, laws that denied people the right to vote based on lack of property ownership and other historical facts that make a mockery of the noble intentions of the founders. But if you're going to run around claiming that post Civil War America is the ideal that we should aspire to, you're going to have to go back to remedial US history. The late 1800s were rife with government involvement in private enterprise, economic booms and busts and private manipulation of the markets. The railroads were example #1 of this period. The abuses of private enterprise led to the rise of the Progressive movement, trust busting and the beginning of government regulation of the financial markets and other businesses. Based on your comments so far, it sounds like you need to go back and do some more reading on actual US history, not some glossed over version that you seem to have absorbed. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4417
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:33 pm: | |
quote:The government didn't "give" the land to the RR's, it was in payment for building the transcontinental routes that were the wonder of the world at the time of completion.
Why even bother having discussions anymore, when people are arguing with their damn selves? As far as I'm concerned, it's comedy hour.
You know what else is a wonder of the world? Amtrak. People from other countries wonder how a nation as wealthy as ours can have such a shit-tastic rail system. |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 2589
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:41 pm: | |
River_rat: "The stimulus plan has done nothing to improve our lot ..."
Yeah! It's already been, what, a week since it was signed already, and I haven't seen one bit of improvement! What's taking so long?
River_Rat again: "The government didn't "give" the land to the RR's, it was in payment for building the transcontinental routes..."
Think about your statement really, really carefully.....in your Dickensian economic world, why should the government "pay" any private corporation to build their (private) operating systems? Most definitely, the railroads were "given" massive government subsidies of free land to build the system in the first place, of which you approve. (And rightly so.)
Fast forward 140 years - you have flipped 180 degrees and now feel that current government subsidies for railroads today are wrong?
Please, choose one position or the other, but not both. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1820
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:46 pm: | |
Alan55,
I agree. If the government paid the railroads, it ought to have got something in return (such as, oh, say, the deed to the railroad). When I buy a loaf of bread, then I own it and I'm taking it home with me; I don't leave it in the store. If I do, then I'm just donating money to the store.
The government gave the land to the railroads and got exactly nothing in direct return, therefore it is a subsidy and a subsidy of the most basic and direct kind, not a "payment".
In fact, in the modern day, the only privately-built and privately-maintained operation for transporting people is the toll highway, and privately-owned toll roads are few and far between. Airlines (which are private in the U.S.) can't exist without airports (which are public), traffic control (which is public), road access to the airport (public), and so on.
Privately-owned transportation of people is a 19th century phenomenon. Arranging that it is possible to move from place to place is a basic government task, and has been for generations now.
If you live in a site-condo sub with private streets, that is just a big honking shared driveway; your street is only useful because public roads connect your sub to the highway system. |
Cman710
Member
Username: Cman710
Post Number: 594
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:52 pm: | |
Before I moved to Boston to be near my fiancee, I regularly took the Acela route from NYC to Boston, at least two roundtrips a month. I thought the service was great and in all my trips over about 20 months, I only had a delay more than 10 minutes on two occasions, and one was during a massive snowstorm. I thought the service was great.
Based on what the conductors said, the train reached near 150mph for part of the trip. The normal time from NYC to Boston-South Station is 3:35, though I was once on a train on that route in which we broke the speed record and made it about 10-15 minutes quicker. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3553
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:53 pm: | |
Actually, I don't think Rat objects to giving public money to private companies which then can do whatever they freakin' want with the money. Remember, lots of companies that got government contracts and land just watered their stock away, took all the money, sold the equipment off, and left the government holding the bag!
I recommend Rat read "The Robber Barons" by Matthew Josephson. |
Glowblue
Member
Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 190
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 2:40 am: | |
quote:We need to bring the rail system up to mid-20th century levels before talking about 250 mph trains. Just to be able to go 80 mph and have a working network of clean trains, as they were when some of us were kids, would be wonderful.
Just rode Amtrak to Chicago and it's OK service, but it'd be nice to have a faster ride, a cafe car at least on the level of Canadian trains, and clean windows. I don't have faith in the infrastructure or the running of it to want to be on a bullet train on these routes just yet. Gotta crawl before you walk.
I don't know why people say things like this, because it doesn't really make any sense. High-speed lines (I'm talking about proper high-speed lines, not the "high speed rail" favored by the adminstration) are not built up slowly from regular lines any more than Interstates are built up from regular roads. They are purpose-built from the outset to be high-speed lines. Moreover, high-speed rail's primary competitors are short-haul airlines, so I don't see how a non-HSR rail infrastructure is necessary for HSR to be successful. After all, people drive from their houses to airports, so they'll drive to train stations if necessary.
Of course, improved intracity and metropolitan transit (good buses, light rail, commuter rail, etc) would make an HSR line more effective, but I don't think they're necessary for success. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2122
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 10:59 am: | |
"...no one seems to get that passenger trains are relatively "slow" in this country because they are forced to share a railway. In most other developed nations, freight and passenger service is separated."
Bingo. That's what needs to happen. Separate lines for passenger and freight service. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4594
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 11:02 am: | |
^^^and well, let's be honest. We're not going to be building too many freeways in the future, and the road contractors, I imagine, would have a lot of the same skills needed to build railways. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1204
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 1:40 pm: | |
Europe and Japan, where most of the high-speed rail systems are, only move a fraction of the freight by rail that the U.S. does. That and the lower population density in the U.S. are the main reasons we don't have true high-speed rail. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1932
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 1:55 pm: | |
Burnsie, I agree with the idea that HSR won't work in much of the US. But there are certain corridors, where you have population centers at reasonably short distances, where it would work.
I think the northeast corridor would be great for higher speeds than today, and there is a California corridor that makes sense, plus some others.
From our point of view, the Midwest High-Speed Rail folks have put together a set of corridors, centered on Chicago, which I think are quite feasible.
Check it out: www.midwesthsr.org
I don't agree with your contention that Europe or Japan move less freight by rail than we do. It might or might not be true; what is your basis for saying so? They have done a better job separating passenger from freight rail facilities than we have done, as has already been mentioned. |
Glowblue
Member
Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 191
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 3:34 pm: | |
quote:Europe and Japan, where most of the high-speed rail systems are, only move a fraction of the freight by rail that the U.S. does. That and the lower population density in the U.S. are the main reasons we don't have true high-speed rail.
1. When people say that the United States has a "low population density", they are taking into account the sparsely populated areas in the West and Alaska. When only considering populated areas, the USA's population density is similar to Europe's (Ohio is roughly as dense as France, California is roughly as dense as Spain).
2. Again, true HSR runs on dedicated high-speed lines that are never used by freight trains. These lines must be built from scratch, so the fact that freighters are clogging our other rail lines is of no consequence to HSR.
We don't have HSR in this country because our political leadership is either too timid to propose such an audacious project (they'd rather not face cries of socialism from the rightist manchildren of the South), or they're in the pocket of anti-rail industries. Stop making excuses for government failure.
(Message edited by glowblue on March 20, 2009) |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1934
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 4:00 pm: | |
Glow, it goes deeper than that. Transportation wise, at the government level, for the past sixty-plus years all of our energy has gone into building, expanding and maintaining roads.
So the staff people in government - transportation experts working for the legislature, state department of transportation officials, county road agencies and so on - don't know how to do anything except build, expand and maintain roads.
So even if you have some fairly visionary person come along in a position of political leadership, like a governor or senator or what have you, and propose such a thing, that person will get immediate pushback from all the professionals, who will emphasize the difficulties and risks. They will do so not because there really are great difficulties and risks, but because all they know how to do is build, expand and maintain roads.
We don't have any base of knowledge in this country as to how to construct a modern transportation system of any kind, which is why we haven't got one.
I'm not sure how you start to solve a problem like this, but that's the root cause, gleaned from years of trying to deal with the type of people of which I here speak.
(Message edited by professorscott on March 20, 2009) |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 796
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 22, 2009 - 9:27 pm: | |
Professorscott
In Michigan, the best answer to improve mass transit is to make better use of the state fuel tax at this time.
We are among the states that can do this under Act 51 which can mandate ten percent of this tax for mass transit.
You might be interested in the links under Google to learn more
http://www.google.com/search?h l=en&q=save+fuel+tax&btnG=Sear ch |
New threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.