 
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5791
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:52 am: |    |
quote:They sacrificed a lot for a better life.
What exactly did they sacrifice? Pay that was above that of their peers in other industries? Ridiculous number of days off compared to peers? Lifetime employment?
Please enlighten me with 2 'sacrifices made by the Big3 people collecting pensions.
quote:When the Big 3 were doing good, why shouldn't the worker do good? Everyone deserves their fair share, after all it was the worker who built the cars that brought in the profits.
The problem is they did well when the company did well and they did well when the company did poorly.
quote:When their negotiations benefitted you it was good; and believe me, thousands of companies and millions of non-automobile related workers benefitted from the work of the UAW. None of you who worked for companies other than the Big 3 but benefitted from their negotiations have a right to complain. They set the standard for a middle class people to exist.
Yes, decades and decades ago. Then they turned into greedy, average workers that along with management incopetence helped bring down the companies yet they still expected to do well.
quote:But let the economy dip and you neanderthals start blaming the worker for the woes of America. The problems today are not because of the UAW, or retirees with health care (which they are losing in some instances) and pensions. The retirees worked long and hard and gave up a lot to get those benefits and to blame them is totally irresponsible and mean spirited.
What did they give up? The entitlement mentality was made worse becauseof the UAW. Nowhere else in the world do people expect to have an upper middle class lifestyle wiht no education or specialized skills. The structure was garbage to start with and now we are paying the price. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5326
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:06 am: | |
If there's an entitlement mentality anywhere in this country it isn't in Detroit. I strongly suggest you look to Washington D.C., New York, the States of California and Texas, and a few smaller places who currently think they're hot shit.
(Message edited by lilpup on February 23, 2009) |
My2cents
Member
Username: My2cents
Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:50 am: | |
A friend wrote this quite a few years ago....
A -- Eliminate duties and tariffs on goods imported into this country from the lesser developed countries.
B -- Manufactures will increase in the lesser developed countries, and will decrease in this country; some manufactures here will close down; they will move their businesses to the lesser developed countries; workers in this country will lose their jobs; the economy in this country will shrink.
Well, the Congress did A, and B happened.
Back in 1992, my Congressman, William D. Ford, Democrat, Michigan, sent out a flier to his interested constituents about the pending free trade agreements in the Congress, requesting our views on the legislation. I wrote back: "It is well known in this country that the United States has a well advanced economic system and society; advanced beyond the economies of some of the other countries with which we trade. Our working people are protected in the workplace by legislation which requires a safe workplace environment. Our manufacturers are required to clean discharges into the environment to limit pollution. Many working people have contracted with employers a retirement program, and health insurance. Compensations for labor have advanced commensurate with the liberties and freedoms of the Americans, allowing Americans to have a more autonomous lifestyle. The United States is being invaded by goods from foreign countries that have provided a haven to our manufacturers who wish to avoid the costs of a clean environment, and a free people. Some of these countries have manufacturers of their own who avoid these responsibilities. The Americans cannot compete on this type of "free trade" basis. To compete, the Americans would have to regress back fifty to one hundred years, a move hardly acceptable by the American people.
According to the Constitution of the United States, the United States Congress was granted the power to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States". The Congress was also granted the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations". With these powers, the Congress, and their staff, have the capacity to determine, for instance, an equivalent automobile, comparing one from a foreign manufacturer to one of our own, and, considering the price differential between the two, lay a tax upon the imported good to balance it with our own. In this way the money could be used to "pay the Debts and provide for the ...general Welfare" of all of the States of the United States, rather than harassing the States' inhabitants with direct taxes, and the accompanying grief."
I mentioned also the writings of Adam Smith and Francis Hutcheson. Congressman Ford voted against the free trade and fast track legislation, but too many of his fellow Democrats voted in favor of the legislation, as did the many Republicans. The changes didn't happen overnight, but they did happen, and will continue to happen; and now we are reaping the harvest of this shame.
On the date 27 September 1992, 60 Minutes' Ed Bradley reported on the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), a taxpayer funded agency that promoted the movement of manufacturing in this country to foreign lands -- El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, China, and etc.
This agency actively advertised to the American companies that they could get low interest loans to close down their American manufacturing interests and establish manufacturing overseas, and at labor costs of 57 cents per hour rather than the high wages in the US.
These trade agreements and manufacturing movements to foreign lands are designed to drive down wages in the US. Our Congressmen new this all along, as noted by several businessmen and Congressmen on talk shows during these procedures in the period of 1991 through 1993. Democrats and Republicans alike voted for these agreements. It was noted in a discussion on a program called "It's Your Business", in 1990, by Congressman Don Pease, Democrat, Ohio, who favored the NAFTA, that the American worker will just have to learn to accept a lower standard of living.
So, while the country was basking in profligacy, our economy was being undermined. Good, solid tax bases have fled the country and now the States are attempting to lay the burden of support on the victim: employees who have been left to scrounge for crumbs and to seek much lower paying jobs.
During the 1980's, the W. R. Grace Company aired a rather bleak outlook advertisement depicting the outcome. The scene was an abandoned factory with some bleachers set up inside. Some small children were huddled together; raggedy clothes, old worn out blankets, dirty, bleak faces. Up front was a table set up with a teen-age judge. The prosecutor was a teen-ager also. He was asking the defendant, who was an old man, the question: "And when you saw what was happening, what did you do?" The old man looked out at the children, then hung his head and said: "Nothing".
Senator David Vitter, Republican, Louisiana, was on CNN, the Lou Dobbs program, on 28 September explaining his request in Congress for "a quarter of a trillion dollars in taxpayer money to rebuild after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita." Mr. Dobbs inquired of him about the wages of those working the reconstruction project since the Davis-Bacon rollback by government, and also about eliminating the requirement for documentation that workers are even American citizens. Senator Vitter declared: "Lou, I'm a free market person."
The Washington Post had an editorial entitled: "Louisiana's Looters", in which they depicted the money grab by the Senators "Like looters who seize six televisions when their homes have room for only two, the Louisiana legislators are out to grab more federal cash than they could possibly spend usefully." If Louisiana's Looters were really interested in "free market", and letting worker's wages float to the level of the undocumented worker, then Louisiana's businesses should be borrowing money from Louisiana's banks to rebuild their businesses, and let the "free market" take care of business.
We were told: "Give your job to the underdeveloped countries so that they can have the where with-all to purchase the products that you are making." Now, I'm not a Nuclear Physicist, but does anyone else see the Catch 22 in this???
The premise that Adam Smith noted was written by him over 200 years ago, [b]but is lost on present day American society as they stumble blindly through economic chaos toward an economic ruin.[/b] Were we warned??? Of course we were, over 200 years ago. Now we will pay the price. It will be too dear for many, but pay we will. When will we learn???
Apparently there are many here on this forum who still have not learned..... |
My2cents
Member
Username: My2cents
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 2:20 am: | |
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.
This was true years ago and is more important than ever today......
INDEED Buyamerican. Your on it.
Just look at the mess the metro Detroit area and Michigan is in now. And do not forget our greatest neighbor, across the river...Canada. All that ignorance,envy,anger and jealousy contributed to the demise of the bread and butter the whole area was built on. See previous post.
Keep the money here where the Big 3 HQ's are. Just wait to see what is gonna happen by the middle of 2010. Perhaps some American Axle employees can tell the tale of what happens when wages cut in half or more....Ahhhh, the opening for the ignorant, angry, jealous and envious who think what, again? Not deserved? Better yet those that no longer have a job and have or are on the verge of losing their homes would be a much better testimony. Or what about the triple digit unemployed in Michigan, perhaps? The ones who have not been forced into leaving yet, anyway.
Oh and for those that missed this....
Ford Fusion Hybrid Tops Camry, Prius in Comparisons
http://autos.yahoo.com/article s/autos_content_landing_pages/ 853/ford-fusion-hybrid-tops-ca mry-prius-in-comparisons
Shhh....Anyone remember where that thread on the years long Honda/Toyota engine sludge problem is? And the one on the deplorable conditions for their workers in their plants in Japan? Oh yeah and that includes those plants down south, too....
How many billions have the big three given to American and Canadian communities over the years?
Do not forget Carl Levins part in all of this either.... |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5792
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 2:49 am: | |
quote:All that ignorance,envy,anger and jealousy contributed to the demise of the bread and butter the whole area was built on.
Care to elaborate on that more? The ignorance is the expectation that what was put in place by poor leadeship and the greedy UAW was sustainable. It's not and we are dealing with that now. You call it bread and butter but it was unrealistic pay and benefits for work that was unskilled.
quote:Perhaps some American Axle employees can tell the tale of what happens when wages cut in half or more....Ahhhh, the opening for the ignorant, angry, jealous and envious who think what, again? Not deserved?
Do I think 50% pay cuts are fair? Absolutely not. The simple fact of the matter is the wages and expected life style should nto have gotten to the point that they did. It was unsustainable - I'm not sure why you guys can't figure that out.
quote:Or what about the triple digit unemployed in Michigan, perhaps? The ones who have not been forced into leaving yet, anyway.
A manifestation of years of bad policy and unsustainable pay and expectations.
quote:Oh and for those that missed this....
I think that the national media does a horrible job giving the Big3 their duewith respect to quality.
quote:And the one on the deplorable conditions for their workers in their plants in Japan? Oh yeah and that includes those plants down south, too....
Deplorabel conditions in the southern plants? Care to elaborate? If the conditions are truly deplorable you should contact OSHA but you have no argument to support this baseless claim.
quote:How many billions have the big three given to American and Canadian communities over the years?
The big 3 have been good to the communities they operate in.
What baffles me if that you and your ilk seem to believe that the role of inflated wages, absurb pensions, benefits, etc are not part of the issue.
How did you spend 'observation of veterans day', AKA opening of hunting season. You know, te holiday that was negotiated into the contract by management. Do you know why it wasn't a concern for management to concede this? because so many plants would shut down from so many employees getting sick at the same time every year. Enough employees that many plants weren't even staffed to operate.
But hey, your leadership got you an extra holiday. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5327
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 3:01 am: | |
Holidays, vacation days, sick days - all those things get negotiated - gain a holiday, lose somewhere else.
It's difficult to look at the pays in the auto industry and compare them to other industries when other industries, especially paper pushing ones like banking and finance, that make so much more, then claim the autoworkers are overpaid.
The transplants factories may not be utterly "deplorable" but they do have higher injury rates, primarily because they have less stringent work rules. Would you, as a line worker with no electrician's experience, want to have to try fixing electrical problems on something that has a high voltage feed? You could be ordered to in one of those plants. |
My2cents
Member
Username: My2cents
Post Number: 65
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 3:01 am: | |
The "roots" of the whole problem......was entirely missed.
A friend wrote this quite a few years ago....
A -- Eliminate duties and tariffs on goods imported into this country from the lesser developed countries.
B -- Manufactures will increase in the lesser developed countries, and will decrease in this country; some manufactures here will close down; they will move their businesses to the lesser developed countries; workers in this country will lose their jobs; the economy in this country will shrink.
Well, the Congress did A, and B happened.
Back in 1992, my Congressman, William D. Ford, Democrat, Michigan, sent out a flier to his interested constituents about the pending free trade agreements in the Congress, requesting our views on the legislation. I wrote back: "It is well known in this country that the United States has a well advanced economic system and society; advanced beyond the economies of some of the other countries with which we trade. Our working people are protected in the workplace by legislation which requires a safe workplace environment. Our manufacturers are required to clean discharges into the environment to limit pollution. Many working people have contracted with employers a retirement program, and health insurance. Compensations for labor have advanced commensurate with the liberties and freedoms of the Americans, allowing Americans to have a more autonomous lifestyle. The United States is being invaded by goods from foreign countries that have provided a haven to our manufacturers who wish to avoid the costs of a clean environment, and a free people. Some of these countries have manufacturers of their own who avoid these responsibilities. The Americans cannot compete on this type of "free trade" basis. To compete, the Americans would have to regress back fifty to one hundred years, a move hardly acceptable by the American people.
According to the Constitution of the United States, the United States Congress was granted the power to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States". The Congress was also granted the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations". With these powers, the Congress, and their staff, have the capacity to determine, for instance, an equivalent automobile, comparing one from a foreign manufacturer to one of our own, and, considering the price differential between the two, lay a tax upon the imported good to balance it with our own. In this way the money could be used to "pay the Debts and provide for the ...general Welfare" of all of the States of the United States, rather than harassing the States' inhabitants with direct taxes, and the accompanying grief."
I mentioned also the writings of Adam Smith and Francis Hutcheson. Congressman Ford voted against the free trade and fast track legislation, but too many of his fellow Democrats voted in favor of the legislation, as did the many Republicans. The changes didn't happen overnight, but they did happen, and will continue to happen; and now we are reaping the harvest of this shame.
On the date 27 September 1992, 60 Minutes' Ed Bradley reported on the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), a taxpayer funded agency that promoted the movement of manufacturing in this country to foreign lands -- El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, China, and etc.
This agency actively advertised to the American companies that they could get low interest loans to close down their American manufacturing interests and establish manufacturing overseas, and at labor costs of 57 cents per hour rather than the high wages in the US.
These trade agreements and manufacturing movements to foreign lands are designed to drive down wages in the US. Our Congressmen new this all along, as noted by several businessmen and Congressmen on talk shows during these procedures in the period of 1991 through 1993. Democrats and Republicans alike voted for these agreements. It was noted in a discussion on a program called "It's Your Business", in 1990, by Congressman Don Pease, Democrat, Ohio, who favored the NAFTA, that the American worker will just have to learn to accept a lower standard of living.
So, while the country was basking in profligacy, our economy was being undermined. Good, solid tax bases have fled the country and now the States are attempting to lay the burden of support on the victim: employees who have been left to scrounge for crumbs and to seek much lower paying jobs.
During the 1980's, the W. R. Grace Company aired a rather bleak outlook advertisement depicting the outcome. The scene was an abandoned factory with some bleachers set up inside. Some small children were huddled together; raggedy clothes, old worn out blankets, dirty, bleak faces. Up front was a table set up with a teen-age judge. The prosecutor was a teen-ager also. He was asking the defendant, who was an old man, the question: "And when you saw what was happening, what did you do?" The old man looked out at the children, then hung his head and said: "Nothing".
Senator David Vitter, Republican, Louisiana, was on CNN, the Lou Dobbs program, on 28 September explaining his request in Congress for "a quarter of a trillion dollars in taxpayer money to rebuild after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita." Mr. Dobbs inquired of him about the wages of those working the reconstruction project since the Davis-Bacon rollback by government, and also about eliminating the requirement for documentation that workers are even American citizens. Senator Vitter declared: "Lou, I'm a free market person."
The Washington Post had an editorial entitled: "Louisiana's Looters", in which they depicted the money grab by the Senators "Like looters who seize six televisions when their homes have room for only two, the Louisiana legislators are out to grab more federal cash than they could possibly spend usefully." If Louisiana's Looters were really interested in "free market", and letting worker's wages float to the level of the undocumented worker, then Louisiana's businesses should be borrowing money from Louisiana's banks to rebuild their businesses, and let the "free market" take care of business.
We were told: "Give your job to the underdeveloped countries so that they can have the where with-all to purchase the products that you are making." Now, I'm not a Nuclear Physicist, but does anyone else see the Catch 22 in this???
The premise that Adam Smith noted was written by him over 200 years ago, [b]but is lost on present day American society as they stumble blindly through economic chaos toward an economic ruin.[/b] Were we warned??? Of course we were, over 200 years ago. Now we will pay the price. |
My2cents
Member
Username: My2cents
Post Number: 66
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 3:18 am: | |
The relevance of the Stolper-Samuelson theorem is clear. For the last three decades, U.S. policy makers, from both major political parties, have worked assiduously to create a global market place in which goods and capital are free to move. Over the same period, two and a half billion people in China, India, Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have discarded economic isolationism and joined the global economy. Now, these two tectonic shifts are coming together in the form of a super-sized Stolper-Samuelson effect, and they stand to have depressing consequences for American workers.
It goes a lot further back than that. Adam Smith, a British economist who has been quoted by American statesmen, and Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States, wrote, in his book Wealth of Nations, published in 1776, "If the free importation of foreign manufactures were permitted, several of the home manufactures would probably suffer, and some of them, perhaps, go to ruin altogether...". He noted that "two great engines for enriching the country, therefore, were restraints upon importation, and encouragements to exportation." Mr. Smith had studied under Professor Francis Hutcheson, who had written, in his book System of Moral Philosophy, in the chapter Of the Nature of Civil Laws and their Execution: "Foreign materials should be imported and even premiums given, when necessary, that all our own hands may be employed; and that, by exporting them again manufactured, we may obtain from abroad the price of our labours. Foreign manufactures and products ready for consumption should be made dear to the consumer by high duties, if we cannot altogether prohibit the consumption;..." |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 750
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 3:22 am: | |
quote:The attitude I see on this thread, except for a select few (thank you Royce, Mikeg) shows me exactly why the U.S. is in the dire straits it's in now. None of you thick skulled so-called Americans will ever believe that when you purchase a Big 3 auto, whether it's assembled in Mexico or parts come from Canada, the PROFITS STAY IN THE U.S. What part of that statement is so hard to understand?
Apparently KEEPING THE PROFITS IN THE U.S. is justification for shipping jobs out of the country. That's great insight.
Here's a question.... how much PROFIT stays in the U.S. when the parts come from the U.S. or the product/car is assembled in the U.S.?
Oh..... the same answer either way it goes. Do I still get a choice?
Oh and how much of that PROFIT will trickle down to the unemployed worker? It appears that every year the corporate strainers become larger and finer. If our country continues to rat-hole most of its money into 5% of the populations' pockets we are doomed as well.
So a little sacrifice from both ends will get you selling American products again.
Fix the labor issue so they can compete and employ. Limit executive salary in order to prevent corruption and greed. Do something proud and smart with the leftover money. Yeah right.
You can not refute the fact that as long as our country allows companies to ship our jobs away, those companies will continue to do so at faster rates and increasing scales. Corporate America will push the limit of this pratice until most countries economies will equalize. Because the companies can and it's condoned, rewarded, profitable and accepted. It is capitalism. The U.S. has enabled capitalism to grow and develop. It is now out of control.
(Message edited by tkshreve on February 23, 2009) |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5793
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:27 am: | |
lilpup - Your information is anectdotal at best:
1. I am not comparing the pay to 'pencil pushing' industries. Compare the UAW pay and required skill set to other manufacturing positions.
2. As for higher injury rates I would like to see some data. I have worked in many plants I find it extremely hard to believe that a line worker would be told to fix something on a high voltage feed. OSHA would not allow that so if you have actual proof I would expect you or someone else to contact OSHA.
I respect you opinion on most posts but I have spent enough time in various types of manufacturing facilities (union and non-union, north and south) to find the above assertions ridiculous.
As for vacations, holidays, etc worked into the contract that is true. It is also true that management has been weak in negotiations in the past. That still doesn't address the fact that a holiday was worked into negotiations as a tactic by management because so many UAW people called in sick to hunt that it caused plant closures. That is flat out unacceptable that it got to the point that it was used as leverage by management for negotiations. The fact that the workers were protected there were no ramifications for them closing plants to hunt. Using that in negotiations was simple for management. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5329
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:36 am: | |
"OSHA would not allow that"
Wanna bet? OSHA doesn't regulate things like that. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:14 am: | |
quote:People, its really simple. Ask yourself two simple questions, "what are you?" and in the end "who do you want to survive?"
Just amazingly ignorant.
(Message edited by _sj_ on February 23, 2009) |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 912
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:33 am: | |
321Brian...you are absolutely right. In some cases, a person has no options at all.
Believe me, if I could purchase everything I own with a label "Made in America" I would. It's very discouraging to me to see my American icon Levi's are made in Mexico. There is a strong possibility that my favorite candy bar, Hershey's Chocolate will be made in Mexico as well.
However, my car is a Chrysler and ALL my automobiles have been American made...maybe assembled someplace else, but Chrysler has a huge plant on Jefferson that pays huge taxes to the City of Detroit. GM has plants in Warren and Sterling Heights, as well as headquartered in the RenCen in downtown Detroit...again, huge taxes go to those cities. Where I have a choice to purchase an American brand and keep Americans working and cities healthy, I will do that. The UAW workers are not to blame for anything. I detect jealousy from some on this thread as well. To think that a high school graduate can fulfill his or her dream of having a decent home, providing an education for his or her children, having decent healthcare and looking forward to retirement and a pension (that they contributed to) seem repugnant to some. Not all of the UAW workers were fortunate enough to go to college, get degrees and go on to have an even better life. They worked their 10-12 hour days, 7 days a week, standing on their feet to assemble American automobiles. If any of the college graduates would like to trade places with them, I'm sure they wouldn't mind doing that. A suit and tie and a parking space would be welcomed.
I am not old enough to remember WW 2 but I thank God that the Big 3 were around and built the Jeeps and tanks and airplanes to help keep our freedom secure. Toyota, Honda and some German companies wouldn't have helped in the least. If America keeps going the way it is today, if you think you'll be able to depend on those companies to help in a crisis, think again. The foreign countries are taking over America and it won't be long before you'll notice it in a big way.
I'll do my part for my country and I'll not apologize for it.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 751
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:37 am: | |
Double post
(Message edited by tkshreve on February 23, 2009) |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 752
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:38 am: | |
Buy-
So why do they continue to ship jobs out of the country?
So Patriotic of them. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5331
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:41 am: | |
How else are they to compete with the benefits foreign based companies enjoy? |
Noodles
Member
Username: Noodles
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:51 am: | |
quote:The UAW workers are not to blame for anything.
quote:For three days in May the Detroit Free Press ran a series of long articles alleging widespread corruption in the United Auto Workers, from the shop floor to union headquarters. Several locals are now under investigation by either the U.S. Department of Labor or the FBI. The accusations came from scores of UAW members in at least ten locals in five states. Although some of the practices were well known to rank and file members, the series provoked much discussion in Detroit-area workplaces.
Members pinpointed dubious practices involving payroll padding and nepotism and the corrupting influence and misuse of the joint funds administered by the UAW and the Big Three auto companies. The Free Press reporters wrote, "Almost all of the members' allegations involve potentially illegal collaboration between the automakers and union officials to buy labor peace."
In most cases, the members who made the accusations said that they went through union channels first, taking their complaints to UAW President Stephen Yokich. Only reluctantly did they go to the federal government when their efforts were rebuffed by International officials.
At both Local 594 in Pontiac, Michigan and Local 685 in Kokomo, Indiana, both GM plants, 150 members signed on to the accusations. In Local 594, members charged that the president of the local had prolonged a 1997 strike in order to get jobs for relatives.
http://labornotes.org/node/130 2
quote:FALLS CHURCH, Va., Sept. 27 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The National Legal and Policy Center (NLPC) today objected to the tentative contract agreement between General Motors (GM) and the United Auto Workers (UAW) to transfer more than $50 billion health care in liabilities to a fund controlled by the union.
Dr. Carl Horowitz, director of the Organized Labor Accountability Project and editor of Union Corruption Update, reacted by saying, "This is a great deal for GM. They get to shed billions in obligations made to former workers. It is a great deal for the UAW. Gettelfinger and his cronies get to control billions in health care dollars. It is a lousy deal for retirees and future retirees who may lose some or all of their benefits."
Horowitz continued, "Union-controlled health and benefit plans lack transparency. That is why they so often get looted by corrupt union officials. The UAW is not clean. As we have documented, many unions have been plagued by a number of benefit scandals in recent years."
"Union-controlled health and benefit plans often shortchange union members and retirees. Instead of getting the best deal for participants, these plans are often characterized by cozy, inside deals beneficial to the union bosses, and on occasion, organized crime. With the staggering size of this proposed health fund, the UAW bosses must be salivating."
Horowitz concluded, "Congress should hold hearings on what this deal means to the tens of thousands of GM retirees and future retirees. Neither GM nor the UAW can be counted on to act in the best interests of workers. Putting the union in charge of this health fund creates a potentially huge conflict of interest for UAW leaders."
http://www.automotive.com/auto -news/02/31480/index.html |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:55 am: | |
quote:There is a strong possibility that my favorite candy bar, Hershey's Chocolate will be made in Mexico as well.
Wonder where all that Cocoa came from? |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 753
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:57 am: | |
Well according to Buy there is no problem with the Labor Unions.
quote:The UAW workers are not to blame for anything.
This roundabout game of cause and effect is fun for only 20 posts or so. Let's acknowledge the elephant in the room.
Why would I observe the Buy American pledge when those companies are putting people like me out of the job? Why Buy?
Do you not see the logic? |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5332
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:08 pm: | |
They aren't the ones putting you out of a job. Their foreign competition and the US government are. The foreign competition is by taking advantage of lower cost manufacturing environments in other countries and currency valuation fluctuations that give them advantages when selling in the wide open US market. The US government is with bad trade policy, allowing it to happen. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 913
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:10 pm: | |
Tkshreve...
Why did the banks do what they did with the TARP money and weren't held accountable? Why did Wall Street screw the little guy? If I had the answers I'd be rich!
What I am sure of is...I do my part by buying American; writing to my Senators, Legislators, Congressmen and whoever else might listen, asking those very questions. I want explanations. It's wrong to ship jobs to foreign countries, they all need to stay here. I'm only one cog in a large wheel and without support from the other cogs the wheel will collapse.
This is a total waste of time. Some here have made up their minds to do just what's "right for me" and the hell with anyone else. I'm old enough to see that the "me" generation is alive and well and will never change.
I am not saying that you HAVE to buy American automobiles but it would be wise if you did. Everyone has the right (thank God) to buy whatever they want; after all, we all worked hard and long for that right, didn't we? What I'm saying is that with every foreign car purchased, possibly another American worker loses his/her job, and not just from the auto industry. The "ripple effect" is a very large one. From the lunch counter to the cleaners, to the barber, to the corner store...everyone suffers and everyone feels the effects...including those who continuously spout how the American auto industry builds inferior cars, the UAW is corrupt, blah, blah, blah. Does anyone care about what happens to America?
This is America, support it whenever and wherever you can!
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1692
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:14 pm: | |
quote:What I'm saying is that with every foreign car purchased, possibly another American worker loses his/her job, and not just from the auto industry. The "ripple effect" is a very large one. From the lunch counter to the cleaners, to the barber, to the corner store...everyone suffers and everyone feels the effects...including those who continuously spout how the American auto industry builds inferior cars, the UAW is corrupt, blah, blah, blah. Does anyone care about what happens to America?
Except in the overall scheme of an economy this is not true. Isn't it funny how anyone associated with the car companies bitch about high gas prices, yet those same prices are a boom to the Texas economy. So do you care about America or just Autos.
quote:The US government is with bad trade policy, allowing it to happen.
Always blaming others is par for the course.
(Message edited by _sj_ on February 23, 2009) |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 914
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:20 pm: | |
_sj_ who is to blame?
I've done my part for my entire life...have you?
(Message edited by Buyamerican on February 23, 2009) |
Noodles
Member
Username: Noodles
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:27 pm: | |
quote:the UAW is corrupt, blah, blah, blah
I've been lurking and reading about how you hate Kwame Kilpatrick so much for his corruption. Now corruption is "blah, blah, blah?"
It's hard to respect someone's point when I see them contradict themselves so openly. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5334
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:28 pm: | |
Noodles, the VEBA is court approved so it's a little more difficult for you to drag that into claims of corruption. |
Noodles
Member
Username: Noodles
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:32 pm: | |
So corruption doesn't matter, unless it does.
Got it. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:42 pm: | |
quote:I've done my part for my entire life...have you?
If you truly believe that then more power to you. But the fact is you haven't in ways you probably have not even thought about. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 915
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:50 pm: | |
Noodles, apples and oranges.
And you're probably one of those who will stand by thug KK to the death. |
Noodles
Member
Username: Noodles
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:04 pm: | |
Apples and oranges? Corruption is corruption, you ignore some instances of it but go overboard about other situations that don't involve your agenda. That's my point.
It's called hypocrisy and it hurts your credibility. Fruit has nothing to do with it. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 916
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:43 pm: | |
You dig up one article about UAW corruption and that's it? If the UAW has done something illegal then I'm all for a proper punishment. Corruption in the UAW isn't what I'm talking about.
There is no comparison between that and thug KK's corruption and rape of the City of Detroit. The UAW has been an asset to the City of Detroit and suburbs for years. It's built the middle class that is in jeopardy now.
Thug KK stole millions of dollars, lied about good, hard working police officers to hide a secret and ruined their lives. He lied to judges and a jury. He lied to the people of Detroit and laughed at them. He raped them.
Corruption does exist, everywhere; and to those that are involved in it, they need to be punished.
You are in no position to judge me Noodles. |
Noodles
Member
Username: Noodles
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:49 pm: | |
quote:You dig up one article about UAW corruption and that's it? If the UAW has done something illegal then I'm all for a proper punishment. Corruption in the UAW isn't what I'm talking about.
I only had to dig up one article to prove this ridiculous statement wrong:
quote:The UAW workers are not to blame for anything.
quote:You are in no position to judge me Noodles.
Nor you me, yet you did.
quote:And you're probably one of those who will stand by thug KK to the death.
It's called hypocrisy, and it's destroyed your credibility. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1695
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:57 pm: | |
quote: The UAW has been an asset to the City of Detroit and suburbs for years
Now thats funny. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 917
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 3:44 pm: | |
Nothing more to be said as far as I'm concerned. I hope everyone fares well during this terrible time in the U.S. I hope you all keep your homes, jobs, healthcare, salaries and all the perks you're used to. I don't see a bright future for America unless there are drastic changes.
When the Big 3 are gone, when wages are less than nothing, remember my words. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5794
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 4:10 pm: | |
BA - How much effort did you put into finding American made jeans? Do yuo just buy the foreign Levis and wish they were made here?
How about the thousands of UAW workers shopping at Walmart? Where is the solidarity there? Does solidarity end when it hits your pocketbook?
I don't see a bright future for the US. The difference is that I don't selectively apply buy America to specific products then just look out for my own pocketbook beyond that.
Can you list 4-5 items that you have bought recently that are made in America. If not is it because you aren't checking unless it's a car? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5795
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 4:13 pm: | |
Looky here - A 2 second search and I found companies that make jeans in the US:
http://www.pointerbrand.com/Pr oductCatalog.asp
http://americanmadeyes.com/clo thing/mensjeans.html
If it was so easy for me to find this why are you wearing Levis. You are the worst kind of hypocrite. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 754
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 4:14 pm: | |
quote:I am not saying that you HAVE to buy American automobiles but it would be wise if you did. Everyone has the right (thank God) to buy whatever they want; after all, we all worked hard and long for that right, didn't we? What I'm saying is that with every foreign car purchased, possibly another American worker loses his/her job, and not just from the auto industry. The "ripple effect" is a very large one. From the lunch counter to the cleaners, to the barber, to the corner store...everyone suffers and everyone feels the effects...including those who continuously spout how the American auto industry builds inferior cars, the UAW is corrupt, blah, blah, blah. Does anyone care about what happens to America?
And here you carefully sidestep the fact that sales from those foreign cars are responsible for EMPLOYING Americans.
quote:Tkshreve...
Why did the banks do what they did with the TARP money and weren't held accountable? Why did Wall Street screw the little guy? If I had the answers I'd be rich!
What I am sure of is...I do my part by buying American; writing to my Senators, Legislators, Congressmen and whoever else might listen, asking those very questions. I want explanations. It's wrong to ship jobs to foreign countries, they all need to stay here. I'm only one cog in a large wheel and without support from the other cogs the wheel will collapse.
That certainly is admirable that you go to all those efforts to contact the people who make those decisions that affect our lives. I can definitely respect that kind of contribution.
Fact:
The population can not purchase American products if they are not working, or on unemployment. Your ripple effect (or the trickle down theory) makes sense, but again you are forgetting that if more and more American jobs are shipped or just plain cut, there is a large ripple affect coming from another direction. Much larger than what you are suggesting.
So in the end one side will have to give in. Either the rest of the nation adopts the "winning" formula of the Unions, or the Unions give concessions so we can return to normal free market effects of capitalism. You're not going to get it both ways.
The unions did a great job creating safe working environments, reasonable benefits, paid overtime, etc. Those accomplishments are one of the cornerstones of our country which sets us apart from the third world. But enough is enough. I think the original idea was if you wanted to work really hard and take risks then you can afford the finer things in life when you succeeded. If you want to sit on a line for thirty years doing simple, non-skilled jobs with zero education, then you must understand that the sky is not going to shit twenty dollar bills on you all day long. But, we will assure that you don't have to test electrical outlets all day long while standing in a puddle. It's fair, and only limited to the choices you make. Unfortunately, those line wages and employment costs have become way to bloated for the skills they require. At least buying a home is much cheaper these days.
Sliding a piece of metal down a line or popping a nut into a hole for eight hours a day should not entitle you to three hots, four kids, a boat, college, paid time off, paid sick leave, paid this, paid that. Especially when a four year old is doing it right now in Bangledesh for a pair of socks and some bamboo over his head at night. Do you see the variance?
Concessions or depression. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5337
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 4:35 pm: | |
I think some Carhartt clothing is still union made in the US.
Tkshreve, the notion of free markets worldwide is a farce. It will never happen. The intent of previous trade agreements was to help raise up other countries by virtue of increasing trade with them. It's not happening for the same reason our domestic situation has deteriorated - inequalities in the societies. As a result our society has become more unequal instead of others becoming more equal.
Fair trade agreements are the only way to go. |
Norwalk
Member
Username: Norwalk
Post Number: 454
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 4:52 pm: | |
It's very simple I live in Detroit so therefore I buy a Detroit product. Just like when I buy my potato chips its a no brainer. |
Heedus
Member
Username: Heedus
Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 7:34 pm: | |
I generally agree with the sentiments of Buyamerican and Lilpup (and I'm an economist and former automotive analyst for a Japanese automotive company), especially the valid concerns regarding wealth transfer and the lessening of the multiple effect (UAW workers buy a lot of products made in the U.S.).
Nevertheless, I think that given the current mindset of many Americans (including, surprisingly, many posting here), a better slogan is:
CONSIDER AMERICAN.
As evidenced by this thread, a lot of people no longer even consider American-made cars anymore. If any of the Big 3 have any chance of surviving this perfect storm, then they need to get more people to consider them when they make their automobile purchases. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5796
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 9:41 pm: | |
Heedus, I'm not sure if I agree with this statement:
quote:Nevertheless, I think that given the current mindset of many Americans (including, surprisingly, many posting here), a better slogan is:
CONSIDER AMERICAN.
I suspect that many people on here, myself included do only buy American (I make sure that the car is assembled in a plant in the US) but we don't support the practices of the unions and the greed that has helped get us to where we are.
People like BA tend to spout 'buy american' non-sense but rarely back it up beyond cars.
To date I have never owned a car that wasn't built in the US by an American company. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 918
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:21 pm: | |
Do you really think that my belief in purchasing American products, built by Americans is limited to cars? Also, you are wrong about your statement concerning "UAW greed". That didn't get us to where we are today. Find someone else to be the scapegoat.
Incidentally, I have absolutely no connection to an automobile company and am not a UAW member. I am, however, a proud member of another large union, based in the City of Detroit that has made the work enviornment safer, kept the City of Detroit from harassing and demoralizing people on the job, got us decent wages and healthcare and a sufficient retirement. Without the UAW, that wouldn't have been possible because they set the precedent that others followed. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5797
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 10:37 pm: | |
quote:Do you really think that my belief in purchasing American products, built by Americans is limited to cars?
I don't doubt that you try to purchase American made but I doubt you make much of an attempt as stated by your wearing of Levis. Feel free to list all of the American products that you have had to seek out as opposed to using what is convenient.
quote:Also, you are wrong about your statement concerning "UAW greed". That didn't get us to where we are today. Find someone else to be the scapegoat.
That is one of many items that have gotten us in this situation. Many others should some fault. your inability to identify ANY blame for anything to the UAW speaks about your mindset and ability to think rationally about the subject.
quote:I am, however, a proud member of another large union, based in the City of Detroit that has made the work enviornment safer, kept the City of Detroit from harassing and demoralizing people on the job, got us decent wages and healthcare and a sufficient retirement.
Yep, those Detroit unions are doing a bang up job. Public lighting is wonderful, parks and rec, DWSD. Really pretty much any fucntion peformed by unions in the city is a complete clusterfuck. Some of the fault is with city leadership but much of it falls with the union (were you one of the people protesting about the Greening of Detroit taking over a function this city doesn't perform?)
City government is distrubingly wasteful as are the wages and benefits, pensions paid to city union workers.
quote:Without the UAW, that wouldn't have been possible because they set the precedent that others followed.
The UAW was great when it was necessary. Now they have just set up a system were economics and responsibility are not considered. Wages should be in line with skillsets and results. That rarely is the case with city unions.
Funny that you have complete contempt for the city that appears to be paying your wage.
Can I fund a basic econ class for you to take. I think it is necessary for you to remove yourself from the bs protectionism and inflated wages that you extort from the city you seem to despise.
Here is an example of the wonderful city unions at work: http://m.detnews.com/news.jsp? key=351317&rc=op
How dare those people try to do work the union isn't doing for the betterment of the city. I forgot that unions only believe in doing something if they get paid and often still don;t believe in doing the work.
Are you willing to state which union you are a part of so i can find tons of examples of youy union being an impediment to something positive being done for the city. It shouldn't be too hard for me to do. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 919
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:00 pm: | |
This is what I said about Levi's:
"It's very discouraging to me to see my American icon Levi's are made in Mexico."
Where in that statement does it say I still buy them?
No, I wasn't one of "(were you one of the people protesting about the Greening of Detroit taking over a function this city doesn't perform?)"
No, I don't have contempt for the City "(Funny that you have complete contempt for the city that appears to be paying your wage." I am saddened by the state of the City. It has become something that I certainly didn't want but can't stop it from happening. I worked for the Detroit Fire Department for 30 years. Retired a Lieutenant, not that would make any difference in how you would feel, you're very sarcastic and condescending.
"Can I fund a basic econ class for you to take. I think it is necessary for you to remove yourself from the bs protectionism and inflated wages that you extort from the city you seem to despise."
"I forgot that unions only believe in doing something if they get paid and often still don;t believe in doing the work."
Tell that to the firefighter who pulls your mom or dad or sister or son out of a burning building. Tell that to Walter Harris' wife and kids. There is no amount of money they can pay a man to do that...it's out of committment and dedication that they do it. If you live in Detroit and need help, don't call the DFD, they are union members and may not feel like helping your sorry ass.
(Message edited by Buyamerican on February 23, 2009) |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 5798
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:06 pm: | |
BA - I have made concessions in the past that my comments don't apply to specialized skills (DFD, DPD, electricians, etc). I respect the work those union members do as they are skillsets that can not easily be replaced.
I am sarcastic and condescending just as you are about the 'if you don't buy an American car you are killing the US'.
It is unfortunate that organizations like DFD are lumped in with the other unions that are more concerned about protectionism than production.
So since my assumption about the jeans was incorrect are you willing to let me know which american company produced your blue jeans?
You may claim that you are sad for what the city has become but it certainly comes across as contempt. Of course the city is still paying you a pension so I guess your contempt or sadness must be tempered just a little bit. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 920
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 11:25 pm: | |
"BA - I have made concessions in the past that my comments don't apply to specialized skills (DFD, DPD, electricians, etc). I respect the work those union members do as they are skillsets that can not easily be replaced."
Thank you for that.
I stand by my slogan, which incidentally comes from http://www.levelfieldinstitute .org/ because I feel it's true and I believe in it wholeheartedly.
As far as what I wear, that's irrelevant.
I resided in the city from the day I was born. I was raised in Detroit, went to school there, got married there, worshipped there, raised a family there, worked for over 30 years there. While I was employed by the City of Detroit, they had me 100%, but it became very evident towards the end of my career that it wouldn't be practical or safe for me to stay there after retirement. We had no services, high taxes, drug dealers on every corner around us, a couple of break-ins and that was that. My contempt is for what it became. My contempt is for a thug Mayor who raped and pilleged the City for all he could.
The memories I have of Detroit I cherish. Detroit of today is not what I wish to remember.
(Message edited by Buyamerican on February 23, 2009) |
Heedus
Member
Username: Heedus
Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 8:26 am: | |
Jt1 - Obviously, the unions and the Big 3 have made some huge, huge mistakes in the past. Over the past few years, however, they have made big strides, albeit not quite enough, to remedy many of those mistakes.
I'm just worried about the wealth transfer that takes place when someone purchases an automobile, from a foreign-owned company, even if that automobile was made in the United States.
For instance, say the average profit/car = roughly $1,000. With, on average, 14 to 16 million vehicles sold in the U.S. per year, that's 14 to 16 BILLION dollars in profits that could be transferred out of this country every year if the Big 3 were to disappear. And that's just profits, it doesn't include other costs that directly benefit foreign companies (building rental in Tokyo, Shanghai, or Stuttgart; administrative salaries in Tokyo, Shanghai, or Stuttgart; accounts receivable paid to foreign-owned suppliers; etc.).
I would much rather have some of that money go to a UAW worker to help her put food on the table, send her kids to college, and purchase a home in this area. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1696
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:17 am: | |
quote:We had no services
Sounds like every other city who is struggling paying a large amount of their tax dollars in wages and benefits to union workers. In the city I live in, it is current climbing close to 80% of each tax dollar. Not a lot of room left over for services.
That does not even count the ones where the taxpayers provided a $5 match in their pension. Or the cities paying more in pensions per year then they earned in their position with the city.
And lets not even talk about those that have retired and took another job out of the economy.
quote:I'm just worried about the wealth transfer that takes place when someone purchases an automobile, from a foreign-owned company, even if that automobile was made in the United States.
Of course, we had no problem with it for a lot of years when were the beneficiary. Now that others are eating our lunch we want to cry foul. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3814
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:24 am: | |
quote:I'm just worried about the wealth transfer that takes place when someone purchases an automobile, from a foreign-owned company, even if that automobile was made in the United States.
What's the difference between buying a car from a foreign manufacturer, and buying gas from a foreign source to power an American built car? |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 921
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:00 am: | |
Ever heard of Valero?
http://www.valero.com/AboutUs/ Refineries/ |
Heedus
Member
Username: Heedus
Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:05 am: | |
_sj_, I'm not crying foul. From my time as an automotive analyst, I learned that other auto-producing nations strongly support their locally owned automotive companies by purchasing their products, subsidizing R & D, and providing health care to their workforce. In addition, I also learned that Toyota, Honda, Daimler, Hyundai get a sizable share of their overall profits from their North American operations.
I'm just hoping that our fellow Americans that won't buy from the Big 3 (for a multitude of reasons, most of which may be justified) simply CONSIDER purchasing a car from the Big 3 because the Big 3 have made substantial and laudable changes in the past few years. That's all.
Iheartthed, that's my point exactly. As a nation, we can't continue shifting our wealth to foreign countries. The problem becomes exacerbated when we not only purchase the vehicle from a foreign manufacturer but also the fuel to run the vehicle from a foreign oil producer.
(Message edited by heedus on February 24, 2009) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3816
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:08 am: | |
>Ever heard of Valero?
Uh yeah, I'm sure that you buy every drop of gas that you use from Valero. Does every ounce of oil that Valero uses come from the U.S.? What is Valero's share of the gas retail market? |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 922
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:31 am: | |
I'm not going to waste my time with those on this thread who continue to lambast anything I have to say. The proof of what is happening to the U.S.A. is in every newspaper headline; a depression is here, families are feeling the losses of jobs, homes, healthcare, retirement benefits, savings, etc.
We will have to agree to disagree.
As I said in previous postings...this is what I believed yesterday, today; and, until there are no more American cars to purchase, the future.
When there are no more new American cars to purchase, then I guess I'll buy used American cars or keep my shiny new American car until it quits.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN. (How many of you have jobs that are related to the auto industry? How many of you have lost your jobs because of the decline in the American auto industry? Be honest.) |
Noodles
Member
Username: Noodles
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:36 am: | |
quote:I'm not going to waste my time with those on this thread who continue to lambast anything I have to say.
It's difficult to take you at your word when you keep coming back for more and answer every critique. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1697
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:58 am: | |
quote:_sj_, I'm not crying foul.
I am not saying you specifically are, but we as Americans never want to take responsibility for our actions, we like to blame others. It is not because the company has run aground and the UAW has made it impossible to make major changes, it is because people aren't buying their product.
quote:The proof of what is happening to the U.S.A. is in every newspaper headline; a depression is here, families are feeling the losses of jobs, homes, healthcare, retirement benefits, savings, etc.
Herein lies the problem, you still think the US economy and world revolves around the American Auto industry. It doesn't. The Big Three are just another in a long of companies facing hard times. The issue people have is that the Autos want everyone to feel their pain when the Autos never feel their pain. When the UAW approached the construction trades claiming they made too much money in the 70s and to take a wage freeze to help the UAW, they did. How did the UAW repay them, they struck for higher wages immediately.
quote:How many of you have jobs that are related to the auto industry? How many of you have lost your jobs because of the decline in the American auto industry? Be honest.
Don't work in the Auto Industry, nor does it impact my job. Infact I would venture that national health care would impact my job negatively. But that would never be a consideration from the UAW. |
My2cents
Member
Username: My2cents
Post Number: 67
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 2:18 pm: | |
How the Economy Was Lost
The American economy has gone away. It is not coming back until free trade myths are buried six feet under.
America’s 20th century economic success was based on two things. Free trade was not one of them. America’s economic success was based on protectionism, (BUY AMERICAN) which was ensured by the union victory in the Civil War, and on British indebtedness, which destroyed the British pound as world reserve currency. Following World War II, the US dollar took the role as reserve currency, a privilege that allows the US to pay its international bills in its own currency.
(BUY AMERICAN)
World War II and socialism together ensured that the US economy dominated the world at the mid 20th century. (BUY AMERICAN) The economies of the rest of the world had been destroyed by war or were stifled by socialism.
The ascendant position of the US economy caused the US government to be relaxed about giving away American industries, such as textiles, as bribes to other countries for cooperating with America’s cold war and foreign policies. For example, Turkey’s US textile quotas were increased in exchange for over-flight rights in the Gulf War, making lost US textile jobs an off-budget war expense. (BUY AMERICAN)
In contrast, countries such as Japan and Germany used industrial policy to plot their comebacks. By the late 1970s, Japanese auto makers had the once dominant American auto industry on the ropes. The first economic act of the “free market” Reagan administration in 1981 was to put quotas on the import of Japanese cars in order to protect Detroit and the United Auto Workers.
(BUY AMERICAN)
Eamonn Fingleton, Pat Choate, and others have described how negligence in Washington DC aided and abetted the erosion of America’s economic position. What we didn’t give away, we let be taken from us while preaching a “free trade” doctrine at which the rest of the world scoffed.
(BUY AMERICAN)
Fortunately, our adversaries at the time, the Soviet Union and China, had unworkable economic systems that posed no threat to America’s diminishing economic prowess. (BUY AMERICAN)
The proverbial hit the fan when Soviet, Chinese, and Indian socialism collapsed around 1990, to be followed shortly thereafter by the rise of the high speed Internet. Suddenly, American and other first world corporations discovered that a massive supply of foreign labor was available at practically free wages.
To get Wall Street analysts and shareholder advocacy groups off their backs, and to boost shareholder returns and management bonuses, American corporations began moving their production for American markets offshore. Products that were made in Peoria are now made in China. (BUY AMERICAN)
As offshoring spread, American cities and states lost tax base, and families and communities lost jobs.
The replacement jobs, such as selling the offshored products at Wal-Mart, brought home less pay.
“Free market economists” covered up the damage done to the US economy by preaching a New Economy based on services and innovation. But it wasn’t long before corporations discovered that the high speed Internet let them offshore a wide range of professional service jobs. In America, the hardest hit have been software engineers and information technology (IT) workers.
The American corporations quickly learned that by declaring “shortages” of skilled Americans, they could get from Congress H-1b work visas for lower paid foreigners with whom to replace their American work force. Many US corporations are known for forcing their US employees to train their foreign replacements in exchange for severance pay.
Chasing after shareholder return and “performance bonuses,” US corporations deserted their American workforce.
The consequences can be seen everywhere.
The loss of tax base has threatened the municipal bonds of cities and states and reduced the wealth of individuals who purchased the bonds.
The lost jobs with good pay resulted in the expansion of consumer debt in order to maintain consumption.
As the offshored goods and services are brought back to America to sell, the US trade deficit has exploded to unimaginable heights, calling into question the US dollar as reserve currency and America’s ability to finance its trade deficit.
As the American economy eroded away bit by bit, “free market” ideologues produced endless reassurances that America had pulled a fast one on China, sending China dirty and grimy manufacturing jobs.
Free of these “old economy” jobs, Americans were lulled with promises of riches.
In place of dirty fingernails, American efforts would flow into innovation and entrepreneurship. In the meantime, the “service economy” of software and communications would provide a leg up for the work force.
Education was the answer to all challenges. This appeased the academics, and they produced no studies that would contradict the propaganda and, thus, curtail the flow of federal government and corporate grants.
The “free market” economists, who provided the propaganda and disinformation to hide the act of destroying the US economy, were well paid.
And as Business Week noted, “outsourcing’s inner circle has deep roots in GE (General Electric) and McKinsey,” a consulting firm.
Indeed, one of McKinsey’s main apologists for offshoring of US jobs, Diana Farrell, is now a member of Obama’s White House National Economic Council.
The pressure of jobs offshoring, together with massive imports, has destroyed the economic prospects for all Americans,
except the CEOs who receive “performance” bonuses for moving American jobs offshore or giving them to H-1b work visa holders.
Lowly paid offshored employees, together with H-1b visas, have curtailed employment for older and more experienced American workers.
Older workers traditionally receive higher pay.
However, when the determining factor is minimizing labor costs for the sake of shareholder returns and management bonuses, older workers are unaffordable.
Doing a good job, providing a good service, is no longer the corporation’s function.
Instead, the goal is to minimize labor costs at all cost. (INCLUDING THE BLAME THE UNION PSYCH-OUT MANTRA)
Thus, “free trade” has also destroyed the employment prospects of older workers.
Forced out of their careers, they seek employment as shelf stockers for Wal-Mart.
I have read endless tributes to Wal-Mart from “libertarian economists,” who sing Wal-Mart’s praises for bringing low price goods, 70% of which are made in China, to the American consumer.
What these “economists” do not factor into their analysis is the diminution of American family incomes and government tax base from the loss of the goods producing jobs to China.
Ladders of upward mobility are being dismantled by offshoring, while California issues IOUs to pay its bills.
By shifting production offshore, offshoring reduces US GDP.
When the goods and services are brought back to America to be sold, they increase the trade deficit.
As the trade deficit is financed by foreigners acquiring ownership of US assets, the change in ownership means that profits, dividends, capital gains, interest, rents, and tolls leave American pockets for foreign ones.
The remainder of the piece is here:
http://www.opednews.com/articl es/How-the-Economy-Was-Lost-by -Paul-Craig-Roberts-090223-753 .html |
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